Will Someone, anyone, help me?

[GrogMcGee]

I don't use Max, but perhaps collapsing the stack?

Another thing that might work would be exporting the model as a obj and then importing it.

You say you think you know what you did? Can you describe what you think you did?

__

Also you can post images via embeded links - so if you hava picasa or imageshack or photobucket or whatever account you can embed an image using the vB code:

url goes here

[concretefire]

Ok , I'll give this a shot .

Nevermind, not working.......perhaps it would be best just to post a link to my whole album.
There's only 4 photos. CLICK ME (http://picasaweb.google.com/concretefire/Angelina#)

1) Reference photo with photoshoped topology as per the tut. (hey I did my best)
2) Problem areas on left side of jaw line where I cannot for the life of me get that part sorted out.

3) Problem area at the "bridge" of the nose. A whole edge is missing creating a hole...or gap.
Cannot get an edge there between the two vertex.
4) Problem area around mouth.

I'll do my best to explain where I think I went wrong. It's very hard because I don't know the lingo. I started out with a plane. 6 x 6. In a nutshell, I believe somehow by using the cut command and creating vertex's and edges......I must have "CLOSED" some of the edges. Because nothing I can do can make edge "A" join up with edge "B" . Not weld, Not cut. Nothing.

I would also like to say to anyone reading this, this project of mine is soley a hobby. I'm sure almost everyone will look and laugh, and that's ok. I KNOW by being a noob trying to tackle a human face is probably like a caveman trying to go to the moon. I KNOW! The thing is, I have ZERO desire to make boxes, pyramids, circles, donuts.....and learn that stuff. The only thing that interests me at all in the 3d mesh/poly/ world is the human figure, and especially the face. So I say this to try to eliminate some (perhaps) frustration on the part of anyone willing to help me. Thank You.

[concretefire]

hey mods, feel free to delete this thread. I've browsed around this site enough now to know you people are not light years ahead of me.............you guys are in a different universe. I have no business here. Sorry for taking up space.

[Shuggs]

hey mods, feel free to delete this thread. I've browsed around this site enough now to know you people are not light years ahead of me.............you guys are in a different universe. I have no business here. Sorry for taking up space.

So...what? You're leaving because these forums are cluttered with professionals? If I had that attitude for everytime I looked at professional work I'd be flipping burgers and taking night classes for a degree in Business Management so that I could open my own McDonald's somewhere down the road wishing that I had stuck with my goals and ambitions.

Professionals aren't born professionals. Those people have earned those titles simply because they've worked for them, and I don't think there's a pro out there who didn't look at professional work and go, "Man. I want to be just like that guy," when they first started out. They didn't let the experts intimidate them, but decided to learn, research, and study their technique and approach, and in turn molded themselves into what they are today. If that is your attitude, then fine. You won't go far with it, but I suggest you suck it up and start posting work here and get the professional critique you won't get anywhere else.

If Obama up and said, "I have no business running for President. I'm going against McCain, Clinton, etc. There's no way my credentials are going to stack against theirs," Americans wouldn't have witnessed one of the biggest milestones in our history. If John Lasseter, Steve Jobs, and Ed Catmull fell under the impression that their dream for computer animated feature film wasn't feasible, we wouldn't have Pixar today.

I came here as a beginner myself and have grown so much. The knowledge that I have accumulated over these past 2 years is priceless, and I didn't have to pay a cent for it. You come here, you ask questions, you study, you research, you learn, you get critique, you apply it, and move forward. I don't think anyone here rolled out of bed and all of a sudden knew how to model, texture, animate, rig, etc. like an expert.

[Lazke]

You just started on the hard stuff :p If the first thing you are going to model is a face, you'veprobably bitten of more then you can chew.
I've been working with 3d stuff on and off for the last few years, and only recently I started doing organic stuff. and damn its hard :D

[Cubikat]

Don't be too hard on him Shuggs, the quality of the work posted on this site can be very intimidating to a beginner. Don't despair Con, there are people of all levels here.

As for your problem, I think I can help you. Warning, mini tutorial follows :).

First off, DON'T use the Cut function, because it's bloody awful and there are much better ways to do things these days (I'm guessing you're following an old tutorial).

Step 1. Select the edges you want to connect. Then click the little box icon next to the Connect button (circled in red).

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/1605/max01hg1.jpg

This allows you to set the number of connections or cuts you want. As you can see, it's vastly superior to the old fashioned Cut function.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/1662/max02sl3.jpg

There is a similar command for connecting vertices. Simply select the vertices you want to connect, then click the Connect button (circled in red).

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/7636/max03ge3.jpg

Voila! A new edge!

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/5050/max04qr3.jpg

To insert a new vertex. Select an edge, then click the 'Insert vertex' button (circled in red). Click anywhere on the selected edge and a new vertex will be created.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/7378/max05mb6.jpg

There you go, I hope that makes sense. If you're really serious about learning to use Max, I recommend you buy the book '3ds Max Bible' by Kelly L.Murdock, it explains all the different functions and has heaps of practical examples and exercises.

Good luck and don't be put off, we all had to start from the beginning.

[Cubikat]

Oops, I forgot to mention, posting an image is easy, just use ImageShack: http://www.imageshack.us/

Upload your image to ImageShack, then copy and paste the URL address of the image into the forum's 'insert image' tool thingybob (if you hover your mouse over the forum's tool icons when you post a message you'll see which one it is).

Hope I helped :).

[concretefire]

SHUGGS........

I believe I didn't make myself very clear. ( I have that unique skill, and therefore people are constantly misunderstanding me....very frustrating ) ( I come across as a #%&$ and it couldn't be further from the truth) :banghead:

Shuggs, It's not that I'm going to quit, cause I'm not. By any stretch. What I quickly realized was that most likely it would be beneficial to me to start out with boxes, and planes, and pyramids, etc....you know....the basics. Problem is I have no desire to do that. I only want to do human faces. And likeness's only. Building trees, bushes, swords, robots, stadiums, etc....no desire to learn it.

So my attempt was to sort of nip this in the bud, because I know I'm starting at step 945, and it's going to be very, very tough. I was trying to bow out (not leave per se) early out of respect for all the people who HAVE done step 1- 944 before me.

So my comments were out of respect for not wasting anyone's time on me, when there are probably more "begginer" forums out there that might suite me better. It had nothing to do with the people here, or this forum, but rather my lack of skill and knowledge and hard headedness to learn ONLY how to do human likeness meshes, and then learn to annimate them.

So, my appologies if my words rubbed the wrong way, because that was never my intention.

[divi]

well, you could also do the first 10 steps or so by completing the tutorials shipped with max which would help you a great deal.

some tools you might find helpful for your face though would be the "target weld", the "collapse" tool and the "connect" tool as cubicat mentioned. weld only works if the selected vertices are in proximity to each other. collapse works - no matter the distance and with target weld you can weld one vertex with another one at the position of the target vertex.

don't hesitate to post your problems on these forums - that's what they are here for - as long as you do it in an appropriate manner. there have been people looking for help here with really bad attitudes and even they got help. sometimes :D

cheers

[concretefire]

You just started on the hard stuff :p If the first thing you are going to model is a face, you'veprobably bitten of more then you can chew.
I've been working with 3d stuff on and off for the last few years, and only recently I started doing organic stuff. and damn its hard :D

Precisely. My thing is, this has gotten under my skin bad, and I will learn how to do it. And I don't care if my first Angelina Jolie model comes out looking like Fred Flinstone. The next time I try, maybe I can get it looking closer to Wilma...but I will keep trying over and over, and refining and learning until I get it right.

I'll be the only 3d in the world that can do a human face mesh likeness but can't do a box. Lol.

[concretefire]

Cubikat, thanks very much for the tut.

[blank]

hi and welcome concretefire :-)

Seeing as you obviously love Faces and the organic stuff have you looked into the organic modelling programs such as ZBrush or Mudbox?

Its alot easier to sculpt your faces/Organic stuff and export the mesh you create in ZBrush/Mudbox back for rendering in 3D Max (or your 3d package of choice).

Just a thought as if your starting out you may not be aware of all your options to get the results you want and these 2 programs are pretty much the way to organic model. (plus its alot more fun) :-)


Hope this helps a bit as afterall we are here to give and gain knowledge :-)

[concretefire]

Cubikat, thanks very much for the tut.

Holy Crap.......this is working. :)

[concretefire]

hi and welcome concretefire :-)

Seeing as you obviously love Faces and the organic stuff have you looked into the organic modelling programs such as ZBrush or Mudbox?

Its alot easier to sculpt your faces/Organic stuff and export the mesh you create in ZBrush/Mudbox back for rendering in 3D Max (or your 3d package of choice).

Just a thought as if your starting out you may not be aware of all your options to get the results you want and these 2 programs are pretty much the way to organic model. (plus its alot more fun) :-)


Hope this helps a bit as afterall we are here to give and gain knowledge :-)

LOL.......yeah.....of course....(not in a know it all way), but I have read many things saying mudbox, and zbrush are not for beginers. I have Zbrush.

Maybe it'd be a lot easier for you guys to steer me in the right direction if I just told you what I want to do, eh? I've learned enough lingo so far to be able to do that I think.

1) Create Meshes of celebrities, family, etc...of their heads.
( Mind you, I think this is a different animal than "sculpting" from scratch and getting every pole, edge loop, etc...perfect in the eyes of a master sculpter. right?)

2) Once step one is done, be able to then FINALLY learn about uv mapping, and texturing and layers to create that breath taking realistic skin look, using any number of renderer's.

3) And finally, be able to use all of the above to animate it and voice it using a number of any software. I'd LOVE to have a copy of Face Robot from Softimage/Autodesk,,,,but that's likely to never happen. More than likely a copy of Biovirtual XHEAD.

That's it. 3 simple things that if I could put all together, I'd be a happy camper. I have a much larger goal which is 4th.....but I'm afraid if I revealed that , you'd all think I was nuts.

So by all means, I'm willing to tackle these one at a time. If anyone knows of a great , straight forward tut for creating likeness meshes in mudbox.....post away. And any other advice is most welcome.

BTW, (and this is how it all started really) Do you think using the program "facegen" is such a bad place to start to perhaps add to the workflow of what I'm trying to do? Like Maybe using facegen to get a half way decent mesh, import that into mudbox or ? See where I'm going?

[Cubikat]

Oops! I forgot to tell you about the Target Weld function! It's a terrific function and I couldn't live without it.

Here we go: Click the Target Weld button (circled in red) then select the vertex you want to weld.

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/9269/max06nu2.jpg

Then simply click on the vertex you want to weld the first one to. Tada!

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/9118/max07yr6.jpg

Easy when you know how isn't it? :)

As for Facegen, I've used it (to create models for the game Oblivion) but I'm not greatly impressed with the topology of the models, they might be fine for games, but I have my doubts about using them for films and so on.

I do understand how you feel, because I was the same, all I wanted to model was characters, I didn't want to model a simple tire or an axe. But it is necessary, just to learn the tools.

Here's a video tutorial I think will help you, it teaches beginner's the basics of using Max: http://www.3dlessons.com/tutorials/MAX-101-part-1-video-tutorial--65146.html

There are lots and lots of beginner tutorials out there, just check out Google: Beginner Tutorials (http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=3ds+max+beginner+tutorial&btnG=Google+Search&meta=)

Good luck and I hope to see you around :).

[wwswimming]

Shuggs, It's not that I'm going to quit, cause I'm not. By any stretch. What I quickly realized was that most likely it would be beneficial to me to start out with boxes, and planes, and pyramids, etc....you know....the basics. Problem is I have no desire to do that. I only want to do human faces. And likeness's only. Building trees, bushes, swords, robots, stadiums, etc....no desire to learn it.

you draw what you draw. some days i have no apparent brain cell activity and i go into "coloring book mode", where i just sit and play with materials, lighting, abstract shapes ... etc.

if you started out by drawing a passable representation of Angelina Jolie's face, that's great !

there is money in modelling boxes. a lot of engineering stuff is boxes. i modelled mostly complicated box shapes for about 16 years, with occasional forays into organic modelling, before starting in animation in 2005.

one way to re-start a model is to lock it and set the snap on the appropriate mode, to re-create the mesh using splines, then adding a surface modifier, then adding an edit mesh/ edit poly/ or edit patch modifier. so that you are drawing another face, using your work-to-date as a direct reference. conceivably importing an ear or whatever to help the process along.

[concretefire]

Cubikat, I'm glad you posted that last mini tut.......cause that's still a sticking point for me.

Yes, I knew about target weld. However, that picture is a PERFECT example of what I am talking about. I have this exact scenario going on, except IT WILL NOT WELD. It's like it refuses to. It just won't.
I've basicaly had to resort to selecting edges and then collapsing them, then trying to use the extrude, and other functions such as break, etc....to try create new edges, that WILL allow me to connect problem vertex/edges.....

But it's like I'm trying to plug a dam...because once I fix one area, I've screwed up another area by doing so. LOL. I know I'm going to have to start over. I wonder.......would you like to take a look at it, on your machine? If you email me or tell me how to attach my saved work so far I'm sure you could fix it in about 3 seconds. Then explain to me what I did wrong?

Anyway.....arrrrrrrg. Lol

[blank]

Have you tried putting a 'STL check modifier' on your mesh to help you see if you have any double faces, open edges and a couple other weird things which may be causing problems.

just a thought

[Cubikat]

I'd be happy to take a look at it for you Con, just upload the Max scene to Rapidshare: http://rapidshare.de/ then post the download link here (cause other's might like to take a look at it for you as well).

[concretefire]

http://rapidshare.de/files/44972894/Close.max.html

Ok Cubikat, here it is......as you notice I have named it "close". Lol. Warning, I'm running x64 bit max so I have no idea if this will work on a x 32. ?

Blank.........I have no idea what an STL check modifier is,,,,,,,however, I went ahead and dropped it in the stack to poke around. Although I don't know what it means, I quickly figured out what value it had. Yes, I turned on error count, then went down each category. There were problems, and it even showed me where the problems were.....cool. (great tip, thank you)

The problem was/is, once I fix one problem, another one arises ala the dam analogy. On top of that, the lingo, "double faces, etc" I don't know what that means, nor do I know what I may have done to create them in the first place.

Finally, Cubikat, I feel like perhaps there are too many edges / vertex along the forehead on the vertical. Agree? Disagree? Please understand that I while I do want you to fix it if you can, my MAIN concern is figuring out where I went wrong. I want to learn, not just try to get someone else to do my work for me. Can't wait to see what you come up with.

OH, and one last thing....currently the mesh is 2d so to speak.....I don't want you to make it 3d for me. NO no no....that's a step I still have to learn. I just want the 2d part fixed , learn what I did wrong, and move on.

[Cubikat]

Bummer! Nope, I can't open it. Ah well, never mind, somebody else might be able to open it and take a look at it for you.

To be honest though, I really think you should give up on this model and start with something simpler. I know you don't want to, but you're trying to do an advanced tutorial and it's only going to frustrate you.

Trust me on this, this is not the first model you'll start and not complete. But every model you make (or attempt to make) will teach you something and improve your skills.

Anyway, I looked through my hard drive for some of the old tutorials that helped me to get started, so here they are (in no particular order):

* Michael Comet's head and body modeling tutorials: Comet Cartoons (http://www.comet-cartoons.com/3dhelp.php#tutorials)

* Muranon's head modeling tutorial: Head Modeling Tutorial (http://www.muranon.com/axel/character/tutorial_1/index.html) I love this tutorial, even though it's for Wings 3D, I was able to do it in Max (after I'd become familiar with Max's tools). It literally shows you step by step and vertex by vertex how to model a head.

If you decide to try it, you'll need these reference images:

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/1803/headreferencequ6.jpg

* Modeling an orc head: Tutorial (http://www.ghouseproductions.com/tut_head.html) This one got me started with the poly by poly modeling method (which I now prefer) but I think box modeling is much easier for beginner's to start with.

* Arold Wiro's excellent character modeling tutorials: Tutorials (http://www.arildwiro.com/) These are quite advanced and not for the beginner.

* The infamous Joan of Arc tutorial: Tutorial (http://www.3dtotal.com/ffa/tutorials/max/joanofarc/joanmenu.asp) This may just be the best character modeling tutorial ever written, but it took me ages before I could model the head, I could handle the body ok, but the head was simply beyond me. Be warned, not for the absolute beginner.

Well, that's all I can remember for character modeling tutorials. But I also modeled my fair share of boxes, tires and other simple stuff, just to learn the tools.

I hope these help and happy modeling :).

[concretefire]

Hey man, no problem at all. Could you do me one more quick favor?

watch this: http://falsehorizons.com/max/maxwahyudi_demoreel_final.wmv

After you watch , a couple of things to note: Bruce willis.....eh......But Ingrid Bergman, OMG!!!

THAT is what I want to do. The problem is I don't know the lingo to know what steps I need to take to get there: For instance.....

I think perhaps, just maybe, I might be on to something with the program called Face Gen.
It basicaly creates a 90 % good enough 3d mesh, or .obj to work with, based on photo's you feed it. ( A likeness mesh of the photos if you will ). From studying the meshes it creates for you, I have determined they are quad based meshes, which I think is a good thing, no?

The point is, if I took that mesh and used it as my base mesh, I could tweak it here and there in Zbrush until I got it to MY satisfaction. Right?
This would eliminate a huge step. Would it be cheating? Yeah, I guess so to the perfectionists. But I just see it as a cheat to get started, rather than starting from ground zero trying to build a model vertex, by vertex. It's not really my desire to learn how to build those meshes from scratch anyway.

My desire is 90% to get something decent to work with (base mesh) and REALLY learn how to create what they call layers (?) so when you render it out, you have that jaw droping "I can't believe that isn't real skin" effect.....Now that I really do want to sink my teeth into and learn every nook and cranny.

Once I master that, (ok once I get good enough to please myself with that) , I would then like to learn how to animate the mesh, EXACTLY like in that movie link I just provided.

Like I said from the start , I sell concrete. This is just a hobby. I'll cheat like hell if I have to, the results only need to please me.

So do you think this plan of attack is good or bad?

Facegen + Reference photos to get a decent mesh, imported to Zbrush to tweak, > learn UV Mapping, layer effects, rendering and lighting effects.....to create a 2d photo if you will....

Then take all that knowledge, and move on to animation? I'm just curious what you think because this seems like logical steps to me.

And I WILL try your tuts, trust me, and thank you for everything you have helped me with.

[Cubikat]

Yes, if that's all you want to do, then yes, I think that would work out well. The only problem is, I'm not sure if the FaceGen meshes would work well in Zbrush (I think their poly count is too high, I'm not sure though, cause it's been a while since I've used the program).

People who use Zbrush, usually start with a very low poly base mesh, like these:

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/5812/topology99xz1.png

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/4864/basehead04is1.png

I guess all you can do is try it and see if it works. As for cheating, who cares? If it gets the results you want, then I say go for it :D.

You know, if you want, I can create a base mesh for you that you can use in Zbrush. Let me know if you'd like it.

[concretefire]

Cubikat, check this out : http://picasaweb.google.com/concretefire/Righttrack#

capture 1 shows ) Raw .obj fresh out of facegen, into Zbrush, with the wireframe turned on just so you could see the mesh.

capture 2 shows) The texture .bmp, that facegen produced (untouched by me) on top of the .obj with no sub division of the mesh.

capture 3 shows ) The sub divided mesh to the highest it would allow before I started getting "increase your poly count in preferences, blah,blah,blah"......then the same untouched .bmp from facegen added as the texture.

2 things you could help me with from here.

1) Could you point in my the direction of some "layer" type tutorials so that I could start to infuse some texture type stuff like bump maps /spec layer, etc.....so that when I apply the overall texture it looks more like skin, rather than just glossed over stuff?

2) Point me in the right direction as far as rendering , because I have no idea what renderer would be best to achieve what I am trying to do. I've heard of V-ray, Mental Ray, etc...
Oddly enough, when I try to re-create this same set up in 3ds Max, (successful btw), and render it with Mental Ray, All I wind up with is nothing more than a black siloutte of her head. So yeah, I haven't really dove into the rendering part yet.

And finally, if you take a look at this and your gut says no, no. no......this wrong.....then yes, by all means, PLEASE create a "base cage" for me to work with like this guy has done with Denzel Washington Here (http://www.*******.com/freestuff/tutorials/misc/digitaldouble/index.html):
When you click this link, your browswer will show ***** before the .com......I don't know why, just insert C G Arena (no spaces) in place of the ****** and it should work.

This forum must hate that place or something, lol.......only reason I wanted you to see that link is because that's exactly what I'm trying to do, and was the only semi - tut I could find

[Cubikat]

That is so cool, I'm so glad it worked for you. However, that Denzel Washington tutorial says you should try for a base mesh of around 500 polys, the Facegen mesh is too high I think.

But if I remember right, I think there's an option in Facegen to reduce the polycount of the mesh.

Anyway, here are a couple of skin tutorials for you:

Human Skin (http://www.3dtotal.com/team/Tutorials/human_skin/human_skin.asp)

Organic Modeling (http://cg-india.com/tutorials/3dsmax_tutorials_organic_modeling.html) This is a set of video tutorials that show the whole head modeling process, from preparing reference images to texturing. The last 3 videos deal with texture, bump and specular map creation. Highly recommended!

As for rendering, I'm afraid that's something I can't help you with. For the moment I'm just concentrating on modeling and texturing (I'll get to rendering later *grin*).

Good luck and keep experimenting :)

[concretefire]

Lol,.......the skin link was cool. Hadn't seen that one. The other link , I already have all 12 (?) videos downloaded. Perhaps one day I will have something worth posting for real.........in the meantime, I have that demo reel of Ingrid Bergman to keep me motivated. It's been two days now and I'm still dragging my jaw around on the ground.

[Revalis]

Hey, concrete, not sure if you've given up on trying to model something from scratch or not, but figured I'd weigh in and see if I couldn't push you more. ;)

I downloaded your max file and was taking a look at it, and there are a lot of issues I'm going to say you'll have based on it. And chances are, you may just want to start over, anyways. Don't take any of this harshly, because I am by no means an expert; and I'm learning right alongside of ya. Take it for what you will.

First thing I noticed about your scene was a pretty big deal, though. No reference planes. If you're going to model a head for the sake of anatomy or study or whatnot, sure you could probably do it from memory/habit. But if you're still aiming towards modeling a celebrity's head/face, then you need have reference images set up. (Okay, so maybe not -need-, but it definately helps. Especially if you're trying to learn.)(Also, I'm gonna risk sounding stupid, now. ;) ) Think of it like concrete! Let's say you're having to pour a sidewalk... well, you can just go in pouring concrete all over the place. You have to have guidelines!

Secondly, when you're modeling, think ahead to what has to be done -- if you read any number of threads around here, you'll start to see a recurring theme of people talking about edge and poly flow, or topology. You want to pay very very careful attention to how your polys flow along the surface; that being said, don't be freaked out by the 'lingo'. Also, part of taking care of your topology is trying to maintain a few things: quads, and equal quad sizes (Let's try to adapt this to concrete again. It's a personal goal now. o_O) So, if I'm pouring my sidewalk, I can't just pour one huge strip.. I have to pour it in specificly sized sections. Or polygons. And how I position these sections will dictate the flow or path of my sidewalk. (score.)

Next, focus on a particular area rather than the entire face first. Like the eyes or the mouth. From the studies I've been doing, I've found it easiest to start with the lips, then do an eye, then start modeling outward little by little from each; the nose I'll shape up next, then the cheeks and forehead. And don't try to force things into being conjoined. I noticed you had created polys? Or extruded some edges to get the cheek and eye connected to the 'edge' of the face? When, really, that's not how the topology would flow. Cubikat's images show some good examples of flow from one area to the next. (Concrete time: Let's say your sidewalk happens to be approaching a fountain; which itself has a sidewalk that circles it, along with some other fancier decor. Whether you drive your sidewalk straight into it, or angle it towards the fountain so that the pathes run side-by-side, the shape of the fountain (Circular, rectangular, etc) should dictate how you merge the two pathes.) In the same way, polys will radiate off from the eyes and naturally join with polys that radiate from the mouth.

I would also suggest that when focusing on an area, don't do it just in 2d. It's a good (and necessary) place to start; but once you get the outline of the eye, go ahead and pully the verts into position and rough out a 3d form. Then do the same with the next part you move on to. This will help you get a better idea, spatially, of what you're working with. It will also help you be able to better visualize pockets or creases that occur naturally (like in the lips or behind the nose or in the eye) (Concrete: So let's say the path needs a curb around it... for.. drainage purposes.. >_> You wouldn't just plane out an area to designate for the drain; you'd have to go ahead and dig the hole, shape it, and build your curb around it!)

Anyways... hope this helps, and hope you don't give up on modeling. There's a lot of us still learning around here, so don't feel like you're the only one. ;)

[newellteapot]

The problems you are experiencing are just due to the fact that you tried to start your learning curve with a complex project.
Leave Angelina alone and start with simple stuff like an apple, a vase, a simple character, a simple scene and work your way upwards.
I'm convinced these words won't resound very popular but it's true that nobody can learn starting with difficult stuff. And a head is difficult.
I'm not saying that one shouldn't aim high, but I'm just saying one should try to get there with solid foundations.
Hope this helps

PS: why are you all guys obsessed with Jolie!

[concretefire]

The problems you are experiencing are just due to the fact that you tried to start your learning curve with a complex project.
Leave Angelina alone and start with simple stuff like an apple, a vase, a simple character, a simple scene and work your way upwards.
I'm convinced these words won't resound very popular but it's true that nobody can learn starting with difficult stuff. And a head is difficult.
I'm not saying that one shouldn't aim high, but I'm just saying one should try to get there with solid foundations.
Hope this helps

PS: why are you all guys obsessed with Jolie!


Yep. Truer words have never been spoken. I know. Deep down, I know you're right. The delima? Do I honestly want this bad enough to learn it? I'm just not sure I have that much ambition. I mean, let's be real.....you can pretty much make a career out of learning just ONE of the programs involved. I dunno, we'll see.

[concretefire]

Hey, concrete, not sure if you've given up on trying to model something from scratch or not, but figured I'd weigh in and see if I couldn't push you more. ;)

I downloaded your max file and was taking a look at it, and there are a lot of issues I'm going to say you'll have based on it. And chances are, you may just want to start over, anyways. Don't take any of this harshly, because I am by no means an expert; and I'm learning right alongside of ya. Take it for what you will.

First thing I noticed about your scene was a pretty big deal, though. No reference planes. If you're going to model a head for the sake of anatomy or study or whatnot, sure you could probably do it from memory/habit. But if you're still aiming towards modeling a celebrity's head/face, then you need have reference images set up. (Okay, so maybe not -need-, but it definately helps. Especially if you're trying to learn.)(Also, I'm gonna risk sounding stupid, now. ;) ) Think of it like concrete! Let's say you're having to pour a sidewalk... well, you can just go in pouring concrete all over the place. You have to have guidelines!

Secondly, when you're modeling, think ahead to what has to be done -- if you read any number of threads around here, you'll start to see a recurring theme of people talking about edge and poly flow, or topology. You want to pay very very careful attention to how your polys flow along the surface; that being said, don't be freaked out by the 'lingo'. Also, part of taking care of your topology is trying to maintain a few things: quads, and equal quad sizes (Let's try to adapt this to concrete again. It's a personal goal now. o_O) So, if I'm pouring my sidewalk, I can't just pour one huge strip.. I have to pour it in specificly sized sections. Or polygons. And how I position these sections will dictate the flow or path of my sidewalk. (score.)

Next, focus on a particular area rather than the entire face first. Like the eyes or the mouth. From the studies I've been doing, I've found it easiest to start with the lips, then do an eye, then start modeling outward little by little from each; the nose I'll shape up next, then the cheeks and forehead. And don't try to force things into being conjoined. I noticed you had created polys? Or extruded some edges to get the cheek and eye connected to the 'edge' of the face? When, really, that's not how the topology would flow. Cubikat's images show some good examples of flow from one area to the next. (Concrete time: Let's say your sidewalk happens to be approaching a fountain; which itself has a sidewalk that circles it, along with some other fancier decor. Whether you drive your sidewalk straight into it, or angle it towards the fountain so that the pathes run side-by-side, the shape of the fountain (Circular, rectangular, etc) should dictate how you merge the two pathes.) In the same way, polys will radiate off from the eyes and naturally join with polys that radiate from the mouth.

I would also suggest that when focusing on an area, don't do it just in 2d. It's a good (and necessary) place to start; but once you get the outline of the eye, go ahead and pully the verts into position and rough out a 3d form. Then do the same with the next part you move on to. This will help you get a better idea, spatially, of what you're working with. It will also help you be able to better visualize pockets or creases that occur naturally (like in the lips or behind the nose or in the eye) (Concrete: So let's say the path needs a curb around it... for.. drainage purposes.. >_> You wouldn't just plane out an area to designate for the drain; you'd have to go ahead and dig the hole, shape it, and build your curb around it!)

Anyways... hope this helps, and hope you don't give up on modeling. There's a lot of us still learning around here, so don't feel like you're the only one. ;)


Thank you , your anologies were very good btw. I suppose the best thing I have found so far is to follow the tuts posted by Cubrikat that I have downloaded. Practice from start to finish, and do it over and over until I can do it with my eyes closed. If I do that, and refine as I go, I might just create something that satisfies me.

[Revalis]

Np.. Here's the tutorials that got me started, btw:


http://www.secondpicture.com/tutorials/3d/3d_modeling_of_a_human_head_3ds_max_01.html

http://www.3dtotal.com/ffa/tutorials/max/joanofarc/joanmenu.asp

The Joan of Arc one is really good.



Happy modeling!