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View Full Version : Would you rig this, or kick it back to the modeler?


DanHaffner
02-03-2009, 05:04 AM
Me and a classmate got into a pretty heated debate about this model. My argument was if this was handed to the rigger, he would kick it back to the modeler to have the arms and palms fixed. As you can see in the pics, the arms are bent, the fingers are so close together they are actually all touching each other, the forearm is modeled twisted, the wrist are rotated and the palm is facing forward at an upward angle.

His argument is there is nothing wrong with the pose and that modelers are modeling character's in whatever pose they feel like and it's the job of the rigger to deal with the pose that is handed to them, and the rigger shouldn't kick a model back for it not being in a T or A pose. That the modelers are modeling all their character's in a "resting" position where all the joints are rotated in some degree and it's the job of the rigger to rig the model accordingly.

So I am coming here to see what your all's opinion on the whole debate is, here are the screen shots of the model that started this entire mess.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/sw204me/Untitled-1-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/sw204me/Untitled-2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/sw204me/Untitled-3.jpg

eek
02-03-2009, 05:51 AM
Me and a classmate got into a pretty heated debate about this model. My argument was if this was handed to the rigger, he would kick it back to the modeler to have the arms and palms fixed. As you can see in the pics, the arms are bent, the fingers are so close together they are actually all touching each other, the forearm is modeled twisted, the wrist are rotated and the palm is facing forward at an upward angle.

His argument is there is nothing wrong with the pose and that modelers are modeling character's in whatever pose they feel like and it's the job of the rigger to deal with the pose that is handed to them, and the rigger shouldn't kick a model back for it not being in a T or A pose. That the modelers are modeling all their character's in a "resting" position where all the joints are rotated in some degree and it's the job of the rigger to rig the model accordingly.


Yes I would kick it straight back to the modeller, the position of the arms is pretty horrible, its not only rotated, theres a twist in there and its rotating back - basically a TD would have to rig it in a twisted state.

His point of modelling how he likes is absolutely laughable, and I would have no quarms of send it back to get fixed. The model needs to be in the "bike riding' pose or a soft T pose, neutral throughout. I would kick it back not only for being in a wrong pose, but for bad topology, edge loop, anything that would break the deformation, even going as far as physically breaking the model to show where the fault lies. These arent static models, they have to move - if a modeller is intending on breaking into the game or film industry they need to know how to model for deformation and movement and know that things will change; its a saying i learnt studying animation 'kill your babies' - the same applies to rigging and animation if it does'nt work, fix it.

The key is your modelling for articulation.

JGaines
02-03-2009, 06:05 AM
Yes I would kick it straight back to the modeller, the position of the arms is pretty horrible, its not only rotated, theres a twist in there and its rotating back - basically a TD would have to rig it in a twisted state.

His point of modelling how he likes is absolutely laughable, and I would have no quarms of send it back to get fixed. The model needs to be in the "bike riding' pose or a soft T pose, neutral throughout. I would kick it back not only for being in a wrong pose, but for bad topology, edge loop, anything that would break the deformation, even going as far as physically breaking the model to show where the fault lies. These arent static models, they have to move - if a modeller is intending on breaking into the game or film industry they need to know how to model for deformation and movement and know that things will change; its a saying i learnt studying animation 'kill your babies' - the same applies to rigging and animation if it does'nt work, fix it.

The key is your modelling for articulation.



I agree. The modeler needs to work in cooperation with the rigger to get the best deformations out of his or her model. This model just wouldn't make the cut unless he or she expects a problematic rig.

stewartjones
02-03-2009, 07:18 AM
Ditto! I agree with the replies above.

His idea of what a modeler and rigger does is a little stupid. Firstly, this character is not in a 'resting' pose. Secondly, it's the job of everyone on the team to get the best results on the final product. This means working together from concept to completion through all disciplines. So if a model can be created to make it easier for a rigger then do it. Likewise if a rigger can make it easier for an animator, it gets done! :beer: Team work! Wooo! :D

So, yeah, I would kick it back for sure due to the pose, and a change on the topology also!

scroll-lock
02-03-2009, 09:23 AM
correct. It's all wrong. The topology is horrible too. I won't rig it if it was me. Waste of time.

PEN
02-03-2009, 10:56 AM
I would kick it back for all the same reasons.

tonytouch
02-03-2009, 11:24 AM
just to make the critic not too bad , for "someone" , who modeled this mesh ... the form itself is pretty nice and good work , but the "artist" must make himself clear , that "his piece of art will later also be in the hands of other artists" and that it is "very important" to teamplay and accept critics and to follow some very important guidelines according to finally achieving the best deformation results .

you are students and everybody is still learning , and nothing will be perfect from the beginning , so you should really stick together now and think about "what can be changed in an easy and fast way" - and most important to look yourself into each others eyes and say , that you are in it together .

in this certain case , i would ask myself , in how many shots , does this character appear ? and if he is a main-actor ? ... if it is just a background-character and a small-project , i would certainly take half a day of work and put this character in the bind-pose , i would like to have , and then pass it back , to fine-tune-correct the model .

NEXT MODEL NEEDS TO BE "posed different" !!! and you need to show your partner , base-models , which are industry-conform .

show your friend this link www.hippydrome.com (http://www.hippydrome.com/) , and he will learn a lot for the future

--------------------
most important aspect:
i would try to calm down the debate . i know , there is a lot of energy and work already in this model . so just making it bad , and showing the mistakes , is not very polite and constructive .

i personally like the silhouette of the character and the anatomical-intelligent-form , also if some loops are not 100% perfect i think you should also tell your partner , that he has done great work , but he needs to do some more or less "easy-to-correct" changes . that is much more "motivating"

having a happy working-atmosphere is certainly more important than having "pixar-like-state-of-the-art" results ( which by the way - would never be possible to achieve for a team of students )


--------------------

working on low-res-games-characters , i know , how important a good topology is - and
for high-res-characters it is even more important , as the vertecies are closer to each other .

professional modelers always "show" their models in certain poses , but the basemodel itself , will always be in a T-Pose ( or better in my eyes is an A-Pose / e.g. arms like 30-60 degree down and the legs slightly spread - or as already mentioned a bicycle-driver-pose ... with the legs raised to the front about 45 degree and the knees bent - a GOOD MIDDLE-position , from which all body-parts can be deformed in all directions - this pose will look a little bit strange , but leads to the best "1st layer-deformation" - before adding additional corrective shapes / muscle-deformers and so on )

---------------------

for my experience with short-films and student-work is , that nobody has the full-experience to deal with a production from the early beginning . everybody learns and being tolerant and forgiving each other their mistakes is always better than being angry at each other and finally go apart as individuals instead of building a TEAM .

often things ( in student-projects ) need to be done twice - and i tell that from both point-of-views , both parties will often have to deal with changes .

------------------

think about this : later , you as the rigger might step into the same discussion with your animator , and what would you wish then for yourself ? an animator who sais "it is ok for now , but please think about it in the future" or someone who sais "i wont animate this" ? :cool:

i would never "just kick back" any work .

EricDLegare
02-03-2009, 12:56 PM
Send it back to the modeling ? Oh no ! I would take it back to the modeling myself and have '' A little talk :scream:'' with the modeler about proper modeling positions.

Yet, before the modeling process should start, the TD and Modelers should have a meeting about the production's requirement to make sure that this can of thing won't happen.

Oh, and by looking at the first pic, it seams like the world origin is not in the character's center : not healty :argh:

JGaines
02-03-2009, 01:05 PM
just to make the critic not too bad , for "someone" , who modeled this mesh ... the form itself is pretty nice and good work , but the "artist" must make himself clear , that "his piece of art will later also be in the hands of other artists" and that it is "very important" to teamplay and accept critics and to follow some very important guidelines according to finally achieving the best deformation results .

you are students and everybody is still learning , and nothing will be perfect from the beginning , so you should really stick together now and think about "what can be changed in an easy and fast way" - and most important to look yourself into each others eyes and say , that you are in it together .

in this certain case , i would ask myself , in how many shots , does this character appear ? and if he is a main-actor ? ... if it is just a background-character and a small-project , i would certainly take half a day of work and put this character in the bind-pose , i would like to have , and then pass it back , to fine-tune-correct the model .

NEXT MODEL NEEDS TO BE "posed different" !!! and you need to show your partner , base-models , which are industry-conform .

show your friend this link www.hippydrome.com (http://www.hippydrome.com/) , and he will learn a lot for the future

--------------------
most important aspect:
i would try to calm down the debate . i know , there is a lot of energy and work already in this model . so just making it bad , and showing the mistakes , is not very polite and constructive .

i personally like the silhouette of the character and the anatomical-intelligent-form , also if some loops are not 100% perfect i think you should also tell your partner , that he has done great work , but he needs to do some more or less "easy-to-correct" changes . that is much more "motivating"

having a happy working-atmosphere is certainly more important than having "pixar-like-state-of-the-art" results ( which by the way - would never be possible to achieve for a team of students )


--------------------

working on low-res-games-characters , i know , how important a good topology is - and
for high-res-characters it is even more important , as the vertecies are closer to each other .

professional modelers always "show" their models in certain poses , but the basemodel itself , will always be in a T-Pose ( or better in my eyes is an A-Pose / e.g. arms like 30-60 degree down and the legs slightly spread - or as already mentioned a bicycle-driver-pose ... with the legs raised to the front about 45 degree and the knees bent - a GOOD MIDDLE-position , from which all body-parts can be deformed in all directions - this pose will look a little bit strange , but leads to the best "1st layer-deformation" - before adding additional corrective shapes / muscle-deformers and so on )

---------------------

for my experience with short-films and student-work is , that nobody has the full-experience to deal with a production from the early beginning . everybody learns and being tolerant and forgiving each other their mistakes is always better than being angry at each other and finally go apart as individuals instead of building a TEAM .

often things ( in student-projects ) need to be done twice - and i tell that from both point-of-views , both parties will often have to deal with changes .

------------------

think about this : later , you as the rigger might step into the same discussion with your animator , and what would you wish then for yourself ? an animator who sais "it is ok for now , but please think about it in the future" or someone who sais "i wont animate this" ? :cool:

i would never "just kick back" any work .

Hey, thank you very much for the constructive criticism for the people involved in this project. It is very important to be as courteous as possible and positive critiques always creates a better work environment. The people you work with are part of your team, and you'll have to be around each other a LONG time throughout the pipeline of your project. So just keep this in mind when talking with anyone in your team.

EricDLegare
02-03-2009, 01:56 PM
It is very important to be as courteous as possible and positive critiques always creates a better work environment.

With that you have to be careful, people often forget that they are not their work, when a critique is adressed to their work, it's their work being critiqued, not them.

People tend to be emotional towards their work, you must be careful with that because you will get rude critiques in a production environement, you have to learn how to deal with those, and the way to do this is to understand that the critiques are addresed to the work you just did and not to your skills. ( Of course, if someone just drop by and shoot ''You are the world's worst modeler'' then of course, you've got a bad coworker, but if he says ''This modeling position is inapropriate for our production'' well... You'll have to take it objectivly and do it.)

''You are not your work...''
- An Art teacher once told me after kicking my ass about a painting... I really learned that day.

DanHaffner
02-03-2009, 01:56 PM
Very well said tony. Though I just want to clarify that neither me or the guy I mention above are on a team or even working on a project together. He as a modeler and me as a rigger is what sparked this conversation and the model above was what was the main focus of the debate.

I agree with everything you said and appreciate your thoughts and the time it took to make that post, just wanted to clarify the full situation is all.

mlefevre
02-03-2009, 05:45 PM
Oh, and by looking at the first pic, it seams like the world origin is not in the character's center : not healty :argh:

Hey Eric,

What's the deal with having the characters center at world origin?

rayfigs
02-03-2009, 06:17 PM
I would kick this shit back ;) I also am glad this discussion has come up between the students so modelers can see how riggers feel, so that riggers can form opinion about models and animator can sit back and get ready to break your rig :P

I agree 200% with all of the comments which were brought up so far. I just want to add that the purpose of the model was for the students to have a not ideal situation for your final project in Character Rigging, and how you would approach a problem presented to you.

As the modeler of the model I thought this whole thread was Interesting and I hope it can be useful in the future if anyone come across a similar situation .

Click Here for obj (http://www.rayfigs.com/Files/Muscle%20man%20day%204.zip)

Kindest regards,

rayfigs

EricDLegare
02-03-2009, 07:17 PM
Hey Eric,

What's the deal with having the characters center at world origin?

Symetry for Mirroring Rig controls and skin :)

( Of course I meant only on the ''Lateral Axis'' which would need the character to move just a little but to his right...

mlefevre
02-03-2009, 08:27 PM
Symetry for Mirroring Rig controls and skin :)

( Of course I meant only on the ''Lateral Axis'' which would need the character to move just a little but to his right...

Ah, yea, that makes sense. I wasn't sure as to why you mentioned the models center being at the origin (as opposed to the model centered on the lateral axis). I've seen models positioned like that before, but couldn't figure out what the purpose of it was.

Thanks

Soulcialism
02-04-2009, 03:01 PM
echo all the other comments. those triceps.. if you were to bind in this position and put his arms down at his sides.... nothing good can come from those triceps.

also, as stewart said, this is not a neutral pose. i've seen some poses with twist with the arms slightly down and rotated in front of a character.. the twist isn't so bad, but i always try to look at it this way:

characters should be modeled/rigged for a majority case. if your character is going to have his arms down most of the time, he should be modeled close to that pose. if you model in A-pose, you are essentially cutting the difference between the two extremes that the arms will be in (arms down at the sides, and arms in T-pose). that covers probably 75% of your deformation with animation. with this guy, when is he ever going to be animated in that pose? very rarely, i'd guess. that means that for most of his animation, he is going to be in a very deformed pose, so all of the hard work the modeler put into the topology on the arms and shoulders is just going to be lost anyway through volume loss from skinning.

Coyote12
02-04-2009, 09:18 PM
"His argument is there is nothing wrong with the pose and that modelers are modeling character's in whatever pose they feel like and it's the job of the rigger to deal with the pose that is handed to them, and the rigger shouldn't kick a model back for it not being in a T or A pose. That the modelers are modeling all their character's in a "resting" position where all the joints are rotated in some degree and it's the job of the rigger to rig the model accordingly. "

Wow it sounds like your friend does not have a clue as to a modelers responsibilities. Being a modeler does not make them the top person on the totem pole. If anything the modeler is one of the lowest in the totem pole. The file or model may go from modeling to rigging and then animation but the who tells who what to do is actually the reverse of this in most cases. A Animator can tell a TD or rigger what they want and the TD should change or work on fixing the issue for them if it is possible. This also hold true that a TD can not be happy with a model and can kick it back and the modeler must make the changes so that the rig can work. Since the end result that you are going for is a working animation rig and not a static model then the TD is the one in charge as to how that model animates and how that model is sculpted.

It is also why the the "D" in TD stands for Director and the modeler does not have that description in their job title. So tell your friend to suck it up and change that model. The idea is to have the character rig to behave in predictable patterns and movements.

There are so many variables in that model with twisted bones in what is a "REST" position that it would be hard to get predictable results. Better yet ask your friend to hold that exact pose for 5-10 minutes perfectly still and at rest. If he can hold perfectly still in that position than he can keep the model in that position. My money is on that his muscles will cramp up.

tonytouch
02-05-2009, 10:03 AM
yeah , that is true .

in a big production you always have a "lead modeler" ... a lead-modeler would never pass some wild topology-draft like this to any of the riggers , TDs , texturing artists .

this model needs a complete makeover ( re-topologize ) - but we are all off the same opinion about this
---------------

anyway ... i needed some research myself , and got a bit of inspiration out of this ( messed up ) topology .

i took a look at the mesh , and for some reason , i took myself about 3 hours in the afternoon yesterday , doing a bit of research on this topic . as it was just interesting for me , a little bit i got inspired by www.hippydrome.com (http://www.hippydrome.com) ( you can see the result below )

1. ( in maya ) first i took the arm down ... using a lowres-cage ( i used "xyShrinkWrap.mel" to fit the lowres-cage into the old_highres_model ) , created some joints - skinned the lowres-cage to the joints , and painted the skinweights ( easy and fast ) , then copied the skinweights from the low to the highres-body and finally rotated the arms down a bit ( the comment about the triceps was totally right , also taking the arms down a bit ... already needed some tiny corrections , and on a highres-mesh like this "tiny corrections" are really a pain ... )

anyway

2. i deleted half of the body and mirrored it , as before , the mesh was not mirrored well and not symmetrical .

3. then i took about one hour remodelling the upper torso in a "really" low-polygon-way ( i am no modeler ... and finally -again- i used xyShrinkWrap.mel to fit the vertecies to the mesh-surface )

4. after one "smooth"-operator and "shrinkWrapping" (once again) the vertecies , i got a medium-res-version ( the modeller would need to finetune this result a bit , to get a better result , as the xyShrinkWrap.mel just takes the closestPointOnMesh / but i did not do that as i just wanted to test this workflow )

5. again , smooth , and after the shrink you get a highres-version . the highres-version still has 500 vertecies less than the old_highres-mesh !!!

so here is , how it looks ( the 1st and 3rd pic is animated gif )

------------

conclusion

the medium-res-mesh , later could be used for skinning , and in combination with the use of the lowres-cage ( in rigging ) one could use wrap-deformers ( or better michaelComets cSmartBlendshape ) to finally create corrective_shapes for the highres-mesh quite easily ( e.g. on the elbows ) .

tonytouch
02-05-2009, 10:14 AM
here are some topologies , that i would recommend to look at

http://www.tylersart.com/misc/Thor_WIP01.jpg

http://www.quadgen.de/SittingBull/Basemesh.jpg

http://www.selwy.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/arthur_basemesh.jpg

shalabology
02-05-2009, 11:06 AM
i would like to record my gratitude for sharing that great site -hippydrome -with us its very neat resource at least for me!

rayfigs
02-07-2009, 10:22 PM
I agree, the hippydrome site is an interesting resource, thanks for sharing.

TinyTouch that was cool, taking the time to post your observations. :thumbsup:

I also like the suggestions of the biker pose, I don't hear that brought up too much. What would a typical pipe with that pose be?

Would it be bind joints pose then reset bind pose? Or would one keep it that way?

HippyDrome
02-08-2009, 02:28 AM
Hey guys,

thanks for the comments.

I have a bunch of stuff coming online this weekend for the arms
and the torso. This type of debate goes on all the time even at out studio. I try to learn new styles for every char that i work on but stick to some basics that show up in every one of my meshes. I used the same eye lid design for all of the chars that i worked on for Up and changed to a different style for the current movie that I am on. Doing the same thing over and over for me can get really boring fast.

the mesh that i use for my HD site is a simple mesh that works well for me under cloth. I am trying to get close to the fence but not too close. My movement is close but not perfect at all. I try to spread out my errors over the whole body as I articulate it. After all it is just morph target firing before the rotation. You can only go so far with this style.

As for the mesh would I kick it back. If the supe says to rig it that way, I do it. If I have been working with the same people for a long time I would voice my opinion but every time I work on something that in my eyes is not the way that i would do it, I end up walking a way with something that will help me in my future. For this model it might not have any thing to do with rigging but it would show that you are playing on a team by doing what the boss wants. And maybe when all hell breaks loose you can say that I think it might have been a good idea to have a little more neutral starting pt the next time.

Cheers,

HD

musashidan
02-08-2009, 09:09 AM
Love the look of your site Hippydrome.what a fantastic resource.There was never anything like this even at subdivisionmodeling.com.Jeff Unay's Siggraph paper from way back is about the closest i've seen.You should post the link in the modeling forum.Keep up the good work.

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