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Stoehr
06-29-2003, 05:32 AM
This character is the lead character of my short animation The Lady and The Lion. She is the most important character, and I am going for absolute accuracy of a wireframe, so the animation and texturing process is smooth running. The teeth are very important, so be sure to analyze them.

As far as concept goes: I struggled to created a portrait of a lady that has the specific forms of no specific culture. In other words, I don't just want an asian, african, central american or european lady. I want something far more wholistic than any one region. That said, if you think you have a suggestion(s) about her facial form and structure, please let me know.

Software: Lightwave
http://www.theladyandthelion.com/forumPosts/theLady_perspectiveShaded.jpg
http://www.theladyandthelion.com/forumPosts/theLady_frontShaded.jpg
http://www.theladyandthelion.com/forumPosts/theLady_frontTeeth.jpg

Stoehr
06-29-2003, 05:33 AM
Other wires and closeups.
http://www.theladyandthelion.com/forumPosts/theLady_perspectiveWire.jpg
http://www.theladyandthelion.com/forumPosts/theLady_closeTeeth.jpg
http://www.theladyandthelion.com/forumPosts/theLady_teethWire.jpg

Esim
06-29-2003, 05:05 PM
Some anatomic things i see. The Face seems too long. The Eyes sit allways in center of the highest point of the head and the lowest end. In this face the eyes are not in center, they are a bit too up.

The teeth are very nice and correct.

The Face looks a bit expressive and archaic with that long look. A very little bit you made as descripted, the part of upper head is too short. If you would like to look this head more feminine, you should shorten up the part under the mouth.

Did you used a anatomic Photo reference too? Sometimes the drawing is not enough. But very good, wonderfull work

greetings

Esim

Christoff
06-29-2003, 05:34 PM
i think that if you are going for a female, the creases above the eyes make it look very masculine. i think the teeth look great though.

Stoehr
06-29-2003, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by Esim
Some anatomic things i see. The Face seems too long. The Eyes sit allways in center of the highest point of the head and the lowest end. In this face the eyes are not in center, they are a bit too up.

The teeth are very nice and correct.

The Face looks a bit expressive and archaic with that long look. A very little bit you made as descripted, the part of upper head is too short. If you would like to look this head more feminine, you should shorten up the part under the mouth.

Did you used a anatomic Photo reference too? Sometimes the drawing is not enough. But very good, wonderfull work

greetings

Esim

Esim:
Thanks for your input.
Your trying to say the forehead is a little too short, and the space between the lower lip and chin is too long, as well?

I made a number a different drawings, creating her based on her character. I decided to use a profile reference I was happy with, and continued from there. As I was modeling her from the drawing, I realized the drawing had a long face, forehead, and the ear was too far back on the head (I tend to see proportions far quicker in three dimensions). I'll show you the drawing.
I thought long and hard if I should look at images of other women, but I decided against it, until after I have the feeling and concept created. This was a way for me to insure her uniqueness.
Sounds odd, but it works for me in the long run. After she is created I bounce her off other real people to see if she fits in as human.

http://www.theladyandthelion.com/forumPosts/theLady_concept.jpg

betelgeuse
06-29-2003, 08:35 PM
Hi, it's looking good, but the ear anatomy is off. I realize ears can look extremely different from person to person, but they all have the same general features. I circled the biggest problem area in the attached image.

Stoehr
06-29-2003, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by Christoff
i think that if you are going for a female, the creases above the eyes make it look very masculine. i think the teeth look great though.

What is very masculine about the crease? Is it the angle, or do you think it is because there's no eyebrows yet? Are you talking about the creases in the forehead?

Stoehr
06-29-2003, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by betelgeuse
Hi, it's looking good, but the ear anatomy is off. I realize ears can look extremely different from person to person, but they all have the same general features. I circled the biggest problem area in the attached image.

Thanks for catching the ear! I'm changing it as I write. I'll post the changes.

http://www.theladyandthelion.com/forumPosts/theLady_earUpdate.jpg

HapZungLam
06-29-2003, 09:48 PM
very nice flow of edge loops. But it looks more like a man to me

Stoehr
06-29-2003, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by HapZungLam
very nice flow of edge loops. But it looks more like a man to me

Why do you feel it is masculine?

BiTMAP
06-29-2003, 10:02 PM
the brow, and the facial features all point to male for me.

Stoehr
06-29-2003, 11:02 PM
I narrowed to mouth, nose, and chin.
Tucked the chin up a little.
Brought the forehead forward and up a bit, for a higher brow.
Raised the cheeks a little, a little rounder near the nose.
Moved the eyes down and in.
Gave quicky eyelashes for the shadow.

She has a long nose, and women usually have shorter/narrower noses, but I feel a sterner nose fit her strong and persistent personality.

http://www.theladyandthelion.com/forumPosts/theLady_moreFemale.jpg

TheFreak
06-29-2003, 11:15 PM
Hi Stoehr,

OK this is my first post in this new forum and it looks like a great forum idea BTW :)

OK your model looks very good but (and this is just my own personal opinion) it looks totally like a man. and i really can see anything that hints towards a woman.

The sketch you have posted as well looks quite masculine and if you have used this as a ref then that might explain the masculine look of the character.

I hope you don't think me harsh, the model itself is very good
perhaps if you have a look at fineark.sk you will see some good refs of females and you can use them as a reference.

I'm afraid i can offer no more than that. I can't say specifically what makes me think it's a man because the whole thing looks masculine to me.

Keep posting the work though so we can see the progress

Ta

Esim
06-29-2003, 11:35 PM
Hi again and sorry my english is not that good but i have made a pic from your head to explain what i mean.

here it is.

http://www.esim.net/lady001.jpg

as you see the proportions to make it more unarchaic and more realistic, and you see also a suggestion to make it more female.

On left (orginal) the eyes are not centered in the middle from top to down.

The distance between the lower lipp and chin (that word i searched :-)) decides how male or female a character looks, better how strong or weak the character is. A very small chin stays a bit for weakness or a femaler look.

The Idea with the Nose is very good and some characteristics are good too. The eyes are a bit to small for a typical female (as you see on animes for example) but that looks good, giving something strong, something between african and asiatic look

Great Model as well.

hope i could help a little

greetings

Esim

JamesMK
06-29-2003, 11:43 PM
Made a quick 'liquify'-session here:

Made eyes bigger, mouth more narrow, not so full lower lip, moved eyes downwards and chin upwards... Small changes but they do a lot of 'feminizing'...

Stoehr
06-30-2003, 01:04 AM
Originally posted by Esim
Hi again and sorry my english is not that good but i have made a pic from your head to explain what i mean.

here it is.



as you see the proportions to make it more unarchaic and more realistic, and you see also a suggestion to make it more female.

On left (orginal) the eyes are not centered in the middle from top to down.

The distance between the lower lipp and chin (that word i searched :-)) decides how male or female a character looks, better how strong or weak the character is. A very small chin stays a bit for weakness or a femaler look.

The Idea with the Nose is very good and some characteristics are good too. The eyes are a bit to small for a typical female (as you see on animes for example) but that looks good, giving something strong, something between african and asiatic look

Great Model as well.

hope i could help a little

greetings

Esim

Funny, I just made those changes, as I figured out what you meant. She looks like a women now. Atleast I have her big brother, if I needed one inthe animation. :)

Edit: You've helped much. Thank you.

I'll post them shortly.

Stoehr
06-30-2003, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by JamesMK
Made a quick 'liquify'-session here:

Made eyes bigger, mouth more narrow, not so full lower lip, moved eyes downwards and chin upwards... Small changes but they do a lot of 'feminizing'...

Thanks JamesMK, I'm addressing these issues.

Stoehr
06-30-2003, 01:23 AM
Here we go! MAJOR structural changes.
The head is shorter between the eyes and nostrils, the nose is narrower, the mouth and chin are smaller and narrower, the ears are smaller, and the face is a little rounder. I don't want her too young looking at first, somewhere around 20-22 years old. Then she will age during the animation to about 35-40. Her full body will help determine her age, as well.

I think this is finally looking like a female, and I'm really glad you guys pointed it out!

http://www.theladyandthelion.com/forumPosts/theLady_majorChanges_Small.jpg

betelgeuse
06-30-2003, 02:40 AM
The ear is looking a little better, but it could use some more refining. See if you can get someone to sit for a minute and look at their ear from different angles for guidance. At the very least, it drops down too far on the head. The lobe should end roughly even with the bottom of the nose. Keep going! :)

Stoehr
06-30-2003, 06:21 AM
Originally posted by betelgeuse
The ear is looking a little better, but it could use some more refining. See if you can get someone to sit for a minute and look at their ear from different angles for guidance. At the very least, it drops down too far on the head. The lobe should end roughly even with the bottom of the nose. Keep going! :)

I'm going, and going and going... I've been looking at a lot of ears, and this is quite a bit different than my last one.

Here's an update to the ear.

http://www.theladyandthelion.com/forumPosts/theLady_majorChanges_02_small.jpg

SEL
06-30-2003, 07:16 AM
Comig along!

Good to see someone from Sacramento CA in here :beer: . Alright the critiques...


I feel you first need to use a sculpt tool to smooth things out a little for females have nice smooth faces and skin. Also from the side view I noticed you should work on the nostril and round it out more. The jaw line of this character is what I feel is making it look manly. Smooth that out and dont have such a big chin. Also the septum of the nose should not have such a defining straight line, curve it a little more and bring it closer to the head from the top to the bottom. Leave the tip and everything on the lower part of the nose alone. Lastly the lower lips middle area should be smoothed out a little and also the neck and back of the head should be brought closer in to the face, and neck thinner!

Hope anything I said can help you with your model.

SEL

Rumors
06-30-2003, 08:19 AM
Hello.

I think you should pull the cheekbones back and re-sculpt the eye socket so it doesn't merge with the cheeck bone so drastically. I would also tilt the ear back so it isn't so vertical, and bring the mouth/chin up.



Forgive my crude paint-over.

-Jeff

JamesMK
06-30-2003, 09:08 AM
She looks much better now :thumbsup: . If you are going to pass her off as mid-twenties initially, then she looks a bit too old in the current state.

Very hard to put my finger on what's wrong... Maybe if the lower lip was less protruded? I think that may be worth a try.

betelgeuse
06-30-2003, 12:54 PM
The ear is 100% better! The only minor tweak to it I would suggest is the same as Rumors suggested (look at paint-over he did). If you decide not to tilt it, it would still look better if you pulled the lobe area a little forward.
I think his other suggestions are good, too. It's really coming along well.

Stoehr
06-30-2003, 05:28 PM
Thanks everybody! I've made some modifications to her ear as suggested, a minor (very minor) amount to her eyes and nose. I lifted the chin and jaw, tucked the cheeks a tiny amount, and that's about it. I'm holding ground on certain characteristics, such as the straight, strong nose and jaw, the slant to her eyes, and I haven't touched her teeth.

I'm very happy with my characters portrait now, and I will continue with her body from here. I'll post a couple of expressions very soon, as well.

The image is on it's way.

Stoehr
06-30-2003, 06:52 PM
Update. Quickly modeled a smile.


http://www.theladyandthelion.com/forumPosts/theLady_nearFinal.jpg

http://www.theladyandthelion.com/forumPosts/theLady_smile.jpg

Mangled Poly
07-03-2003, 12:18 AM
matt its looking cool and quite alot of change from the original.. and for the better...

Anyways looking over your model you need to work on your grin endo morphs a little. The wrinkles placement is a bit odd to me. I think they would nomally start higher on the nose, not go as far down and not go as wide on the face. I have made a little outline showing you what i mean

Mangled Poly
07-03-2003, 12:24 AM
also YOU MUST check out this thread to show how to better place all your edgeloops....

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38469&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

Stoehr
07-03-2003, 04:56 AM
Hey Mangled:
I checked out the thread, and it's very cool. I've made modifications since reading it. The smile posted above, was a quicky modeled morph target, but after playing with bones to animate the face, I ran into some problems that I believe were due to the wireframe topology.

Here is the update to the Lady, and I think she is becoming more beautiful, and is still strong. The most significant changes are on her mouth, jaw, and nose.

http://www.theladyandthelion.com/forumPosts/theLady_newWire.jpg

Kris-S
07-03-2003, 05:23 AM
:surprised She's still looks a bit like a he to me I think if you pulled in the neck she looks much better. Ive attached this image to show you what I mean

Mangled Poly
07-03-2003, 07:28 AM
Matt,
Im not 100% sure on the look you are trying to go after but right now she hints towards more of an asain. I hope this doesnt sound to stereo typical, but from looking over many refrences asain women tend to have the wider nostrilled nose, if this is the look you are going for then you have nailed it! but if not i find its more of a feministic feature to not have such a wide nostril area of the nose like you have there. Womens faces are generally less defined. This i think is what is buggin me most about your front silouette.

Now to the 3/4ths view, again its a pretty solid sillouete however there are a couple things that bother me about it, ill talk about them when i get to the side view, but generally over all the nose to cheek area doesnt seem like it flows well together, like a normal face would, i cant point my finger on it, could just be me. Next is the eye brow area i know your trying to go for more muscular, strong look, however i feel it is still a little to defined and not flowing smooth enough for a female face.

Now the side sillouette I think is your strongest, I can tell you have spent the most time on it, however there are a few things that bug me a tad, and might add towards your strength of the character. First the nose, i think you should have the nostrils almost flat on the horizontal axis, you can have the tip angle off a bit after that though. The reason i say this is i notice most children have noses that angle up like that, and as they mature they seem to become a little more horizontal. Lastly the jaw line, i think it needs to be a little more "defined" it is almost gone by the middle of the neck, when in reality you can see it go all the to the ear, i can see you have pulled it a little bit but i think it needs to come out more to be more realistic and add more strength.

Over all its getting better and better! solid work, better then what i can do :)

Hope your having fun in CO, your missing all the 100 degree weather!:wavey:

Stoehr
07-03-2003, 05:28 PM
Good points onthe nostrils and jaw line. I've made the changes.
I'm still editing the topology for animation. I'm trying to get her smile perfect, because she'll be smiling alot in the animation (at least the first half). I've been doing research on facial movement since Sunday, and have found much information. Now, to implement it.

Solace9
07-03-2003, 08:53 PM
yeah, totally looked like a guy at first. O_o
but, good changes have been made
so, the visual gender dysphoria is now minimal

:beer:

L&RviaS9

Solace9
07-04-2003, 02:15 AM
Is she supposed to be discontent by default?
Is that part of her character?

'cause her mouth, in side view, slants down.
Here's a graphic refference to what i would think is more normative:

Stoehr
07-04-2003, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by Solace9
Is she supposed to be discontent by default?
Is that part of her character?

'cause her mouth, in side view, slants down.
Here's a graphic refference to what i would think is more normative:

Well... yeah. She goes through a large character change, from niave, fun, and carefree, to a hardened, stern, and persistent person; while always retaining her gay personality.
She is serious when she is playful, and serious when she is pressed to bounds of humanity.

As I rig her face for animation I will inevitibly makes changes to her topology to improve her expressions.

eirenicon
07-05-2003, 01:44 AM
I've painted in a few changes, mostly subtle things which I think make her more feminine. Take it how you will :)

http://www3.sympatico.ca/tim.duyzer/host/Stoehr-paintover.jpg

MarkSnoswell
07-07-2003, 06:38 AM
For reference goto www.FaceGen.com and download the demo version of FaceGen -- it's free.

You can set it for "all races" and see *exactly* what a female head of any age you like should be like.

As FaceGen is based on a large database of 3D scans it's results are real.

You cant save or load from the demo version -- but you could always do screen captures to keep references.

Anyone doing *any* head work should have FaceGen demo -- it's unique and accurate and the demo is free.

Stoehr
07-07-2003, 06:59 AM
Originally posted by Mark.Snoswell
For reference goto www.FaceGen.com and download the demo version of FaceGen -- it's free.

You can set it for "all races" and see *exactly* what a female head of any age you like should be like.

As FaceGen is based on a large database of 3D scans it's results are real.

You cant save or load from the demo version -- but you could always do screen captures to keep references.

Anyone doing *any* head work should have FaceGen demo -- it's unique and accurate and the demo is free.

Thanks for the link Mark. I didn't know about FaceGen.

Stoehr
07-07-2003, 04:31 PM
Here's is my newest wireframe. If you see anything that could be change to help animation of the mouth, cheeks, chin, nose, and eyes, please state your thoughts. (EDIT: Lightwave's perspective view is very distorted. It makes her face look longer than it really is).

http://www.theladyandthelion.com/forumPosts/theLady_newWire02.jpg

Here is her recent shaded version.

http://www.theladyandthelion.com/forumPosts/theLady_68.jpg

Mangled Poly
07-07-2003, 05:22 PM
Its looking more like a lady, but now that you have posted your wireframe there are a couple things that need fixing...

The nose area.. its way to compacted with edge loops, you only need 3 to define the wrinkle and you have 5-6. Id recamend spreading them out more up into the up cheack area and pole some of them off at the start of the nose, yes i did say the dred ful word "pole" however its ok to have a pole or triangle where deformation isnt going to happen.

Next issue i see is just a "clean mesh" issue. I find many zig-zag lines in your mesh, you need to convert them to more of smooth arcs, this will help your mesh a ton aswell as when showing it off in a portfolio for a company, the smoother the arcs, the smoother the model, deformations look.

Stoehr
07-07-2003, 11:19 PM
Whew!! Lots of changes. At least I like the changes.
Here's some new wires.

http://www.theladyandthelion.com/forumPosts/theLady_newWire03.jpg

Changes to her features on a whole.

http://www.theladyandthelion.com/forumPosts/theLady_72.jpg

tomb
07-09-2003, 07:12 AM
Taking a reference image and trying to match it is a good method for identifying problem areas. Take a look at my paintover attached:

Stoehr
07-11-2003, 07:44 AM
So here is her big smile. After long hours of rigging and weighting and testing..... I have something I'm happy to show. I've been staring at this long enough to not recognize problem areas, so if you see anything worth mentioning, let me know.

http://www.theladyandthelion.com/forumPosts/theLady_bigSmile.jpg

Solace9
07-11-2003, 09:58 PM
Matt, the upper lip in the smile... it's bottom section needs to curl under it's top section so that the upper lip becomes thinner during the smile.

Or maybe that's just my face's dynamic.

Smile in a mirror.

L&RviaS9

spakman
07-12-2003, 05:48 AM
Originally posted by Mark.Snoswell
For reference goto www.FaceGen.com and download the demo version of FaceGen -- it's free.

You can set it for "all races" and see *exactly* what a female head of any age you like should be like.

As FaceGen is based on a large database of 3D scans it's results are real.

You cant save or load from the demo version -- but you could always do screen captures to keep references.

Anyone doing *any* head work should have FaceGen demo -- it's unique and accurate and the demo is free.

I dunno. I don't buy the underlying edgeloop structure of that app. And there seems to be no real deviation or allowances for true detail in areas such as the temple.

The textures are bomb, but to say you can see *exactly* what a female face looks like just by using this app smells more of a marketing pitch than what's actually deliverable.

I will say that app gives a pretty good characturization of a human face, but the lack of adherence to real bone structure doesn't do it for me. IMHO, this application has got quite a ways to go before I'd say it's "accurate."

If somebody is looking for "accurate" reference, I would rather they look at real photographs.

spakman
07-12-2003, 06:17 AM
regarding the critique: I really like what I'm seeing. The progress has been off the hook!

The one thing I'm seeing that's making her look male, are that the robustness of the cheeks and lips really suggest a much larger nose. Like folks with nosejobs often end up looking. The size of her eyes in relation to the rest of the head also suggests someone with a larger, more masculine frame.

I must say I'm impressed so far. I can't wait for more!:thumbsup:

Stoehr
07-14-2003, 12:57 AM
Thank you everybody for taking the time to help my progress. I may not have directly responded to all of your comments, but rest assured, I have use, considered, and exploited all of them.

Now, another update.
the major changes here are, obviously, the eyes. If you have suggestions or links to eye information or anatomy, please share it. I've been doing a lot of research and experimentation to create the eyes, but more information can't hurt. The channels color, spec, bump, and luminosity are hand painted.

Paint Program: Aura Video Paint

Other changes: the forehead has more details, and I have made minor changes the head. I've also made changes to my rig, but that is a little invisible at the moment.

http://www.theladyandthelion.com/forumPosts/theLady_eyes.jpg

Stoehr
07-14-2003, 08:16 AM
A prettier render. Area Light added for the soft shadows, and I worked on the reflections and specs of the eyes.

http://www.theladyandthelion.com/forumPosts/theLady_eyes25min.jpg

Stoehr
07-16-2003, 11:43 PM
Again, lots of changes.
1. The irises are now centered. The lack of centeredness was causing my eyes to look slow. The eyes are now closer together, and the Zygomatic bone is stronger.

2. I've created several facial targets with both bones and morphs (eyes primarily animated with bones), and I should have an animation of some dialogue shortly.

For those curious I use Lightwave for some of the animation, but I make most of my lipsynch in Joe Alter's Lipservice program. Also, I just recieved Motion Builder yesterday, and I'm very anxious to use the program.

Here's an image displaying some of her more extreme targets.

http://www.theladyandthelion.com/forumPosts/theLady_twistedAnger.jpg

And here's the neutral pose to better show the new spacing and centeredness of the eyes.

http://www.theladyandthelion.com/forumPosts/theLady_betterEyes.jpg

Ribbit
07-17-2003, 05:35 AM
I like the teeth a lot!!

Kris-S
07-23-2003, 05:51 AM
Are you using any referance?.. I think that when she smiles her top lip needs to thin out alot more. and when she is angry her bottom lip looks ... flat, which dosn't happen in real life. Perhaps if you get a mirror and place it beside the computer when you work and look at all the subtle nuances, and micro motion that the face dose when it makes an expression. Ie when you smile its not just your mouth that moves, you will find that your cheecks go up your eyes squnt and even your ears move up. Those are only some of the things that happen. Anyway I had a look at your websight looks very promising keep us posted.

:hmm: :wavey:

Stoehr
07-23-2003, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by Kris.s32
Are you using any referance?.. I think that when she smiles her top lip needs to thin out alot more. and when she is angry her bottom lip looks ... flat, which dosn't happen in real life. Perhaps if you get a mirror and place it beside the computer when you work and look at all the subtle nuances, and micro motion that the face dose when it makes an expression. Ie when you smile its not just your mouth that moves, you will find that your cheecks go up your eyes squnt and even your ears move up. Those are only some of the things that happen. Anyway I had a look at your websight looks very promising keep us posted.

:hmm: :wavey:

Your right about a mirror, and I've had one in front of me all the while. I also use my wife for reference when she has a free moment to pose for me. I have conciously ignored the upper lip not stretching enough and the lower lip flattening out too much, at the moment. I will be coming back to this. Thanks for reminding me.

All the nuances and subtleties you've mentioned I have addressed already, but since you mentioned it, perhaps there's not enough and I need more exaggeration. All in all, my primary focus has been movement, and not so much the micro details. I don't use morphs completely, but in the end I animate with morphs and add extra movement with bones. As a matter of fact, the original rig for the head is all bones and weighted movement. I then save out morphs from this "lattice", and adjusted the morphs further with modeling. This allows me to rough out the form and movement, with out having the model every pose. In the end, I think the process of animating with bones first may have taken as long as modeling morph targets, but I felt the bones could movement more consistently than I could model. The one thing I couldn't attain with bones was the subtlety of the lips and eyes very plastic movement (how the lips can fold in and out displacing volume).

EDIT: primary focus is movement, not moment. Bad typing causes misunderstanding.

Stoehr
07-23-2003, 06:47 PM
Hey Kris.s32:
In case you didn't catch it, that long talk was me saying "thanks for reminding of details". Also, thanks for your interest in my site and animation. It's always good to know someone is looking. :)

Kris-S
07-23-2003, 11:02 PM
Sounds like your doing a really good job. its hard to see where abouts it is you are up to with your animation and what your skill level is but after I had a look at your websight it looks like your doing excellent work. How long have you been working with 3D for?

:thumbsup:

Stoehr
07-23-2003, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by Kris.s32
Sounds like your doing a really good job. its hard to see where abouts it is you are up to with your animation and what your skill level is but after I had a look at your websight it looks like your doing excellent work. How long have you been working with 3D for?

:thumbsup:

As of this July, two and a half years. I started using 3D animation in my sculpture thesis in January 2001. Then I migrated to exclusive usage of 3D animation for my art. I landed my professorship May 2002, and since then I have done nothing but 3D animation. Also, because of my job I'm able to spend the time and commitment to my art piece/ animation. I wish I knew way more than I do now, so that I can go faster. The only thing that can be discouraging is how long it takes to create a final product. As of right now, I'm the only visual artist on this project, and I have one recruited composer, who is making the soundtrack and sound effects.

Anyway, I'll have this kind of information on the website before the end of August, if not sooner. Along with a major update, displaying the Lady and the Sentry, with new images, concepts, text explanations, and animations.

vizion
07-24-2003, 09:56 AM
Her face seems very odd looking. It does not look very realistic or human... I would suggest reworking the lips and the sides of the face..make it a bit narrower. As it is, it stands too wide.

Kris-S
07-25-2003, 12:24 AM
Crazy. Im a 3D tech tutor at Massey university Wellington New Zealand. used 3d software for about 3 years. However some of the students here no more about the software than I do. its an ever learning process.

Stoehr
07-25-2003, 07:03 AM
Originally posted by vizion
Her face seems very odd looking. It does not look very realistic or human... I would suggest reworking the lips and the sides of the face..make it a bit narrower. As it is, it stands too wide.

I hear ya. I'll be making some changes. Now that I've lived with the character for awhile, I want it to change.

Arcana_x
07-28-2003, 03:14 PM
the lips are what throw me off, they ruin it for me.

If you fixed/remodelled the lips to match the curvature of a womens lips, it would complment the whole model!

The first thought that came to mind is actor 'James Coburn', they are pretty similar.

Some women have lips like men i guess, and some probably have the exact lips youve drawn. In fact some women probably look like men, so at the end of the day tis all down to the artists preference.
But for this purpose, I would spend a bit of attention to the lips, also maybe the eyes.

kerosene
07-29-2003, 06:05 PM
Before making the morph targets get the basics right mr professor.

The anatomy is seriously off both in base model and expressions. The mouth is too low, too wide even for wide mouthed girl, the mouth lacks the correct shape, as well as does the eye.

in the side view the cheek comes far too front the eye lid silhuette is seriously wron and the eyes are too small. I would look carefully at reference. Also get some info on what actually happens in expressions (muscles working etc.)

The web is full of stuff and http://www.3drender.com has plenty of book reviews that can be pretty much counted on. Check the anatomy department.

heikki

Stoehr
07-29-2003, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by kerosene
Before making the morph targets get the basics right mr professor.
heikki

I use the focused critiques forum for critical reviews and opinions.

I will not accept slanderous comments.

I have the basics, I'm trying to push the basics. Your rendition of my model is simply a standardized approach. It's a common approach to build a female in the eyes of mass media. I'm trying to create something not seen before, yet still be acceptable as a human female.

There not "completely" morph targets, read my former posts to find my process.

Your feedback is appreciated, but it would be wise for you to refer to my most recent post when making your comments. As it has the most recent proportional changes. I'd also appreciate your slander be kept to yourself.

BTW,
Your Amila character looks good.

spakman
07-29-2003, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by kerosene
Before making the morph targets get the basics right mr professor.


And how do you get the basics right when when you remove the most important piece from the learning process? Have you ever seen a human being somehow frozen in space/time? I haven't. No matter when you look at them, their always moving - accept when dead, of course. But then who needs morph targets for dead people?

Personally, I would spend less time on targets, and more on proportion, but it's good to know that an artist's mind is at least thinking about it. Planning ahead - or is that planning a "head"?;)

peace

Kris-S
07-30-2003, 02:20 AM
Your going for non-specifics in culture, not Asian not European not African .. E.T.C. right. I feel this face is heading more and more towards being European.

You’re setting yourself up for an extremely difficult task. There are so many stereotypes of faces when comparing them to cultures. I.e. Asians have their eye’s Greeks with their nose’s Africans with a: there bigger lips, Indians (from India) have their rounder faces. Etc. To make a character look realistic but non-specific of culture is going to be hard. I feel that if you make a character that incorporates many different features from many different cultures, people will find it hard to relate to. That and it makes it harder to make a head that looks attractive and I think you don’t really want an ugly lead character.

In short, I don’t think you want a butter girl. Nice body butter face!….

anyway thats my 2 cents worth. post us an update soon. wanna see more
:) :)

Stoehr
07-30-2003, 05:51 AM
Originally posted by Kris.s32
Your going for non-specifics in culture, not Asian not European not African .. E.T.C. right. I feel this face is heading more and more towards being European.

You’re setting yourself up for an extremely difficult task. There are so many stereotypes of faces when comparing them to cultures. I.e. Asians have their eye’s Greeks with their nose’s Africans with a: there bigger lips, Indians (from India) have their rounder faces. Etc. To make a character look realistic but non-specific of culture is going to be hard. I feel that if you make a character that incorporates many different features from many different cultures, people will find it hard to relate to. That and it makes it harder to make a head that looks attractive and I think you don’t really want an ugly lead character.

In short, I don’t think you want a butter girl. Nice body butter face!….

anyway thats my 2 cents worth. post us an update soon. wanna see more
:) :)

Your right, this is a very difficult task. I delayed creating her since last August because I couldn't decide how to approach the problem. But, above all else, I need a non-specific character. Kinda like Vin Diesel, and how the media keeps trying to guess where hes from, but they can't put their finger on it. Also, I need her to convince the audience, as based on our physical reality. This is the primary reason why I posted her on CGTalk. I wanted a mass public reaction, and discover how many people would accept her. I've a learned alot about what is accepted and what isn't, and I hope to learn more. Looking forward, I know that my decisions of her beauty weigh heavily on her face (due to clse-ups of the camera), but her face doesn't comprise her entire character and mood. I'll have a much better picture of her "looks" when I see her "act". As I move her face I discover where I can and cannot push the "differentness" of her facial structure; due to the fact it won't function properly. As I change her facial structure I test how the wireframe will deform. Sometimes it deforms properly, sometimes there's too much skin in the cheeks, or not enough around the eyes, and I'm able to discover these differences by watching her move (which is why I built the bone structure way before I did any morph target editing). For example, I learned the width of her eyes was too great for them to accurately look at the same spot without appearing to have a "slow" eye, so I brought them closer together and tweaked the curvature of eyelids. Bam! now they are convincing, anatomically moving correctly, yet unique in appearance. This is what I'm working towards.

Again, your right, she is headed more towards a european/russian ethnicity, which is why I have delayed a little in progressing; digesting what has already happened, and deciding where to go from here. The last few suggestions have been great. The first thing I'm going to change is the width of her head and cheeks. I feel there is too much space between her eyes and ears from the front.

I'll post soon. Also, in about two weeks my website will be updated with alot more material, and you can see what else I've been working on. Finally, going to create a mock forum on my website, so that ideas can be expressed specifically towards the project.

phobos
07-31-2003, 01:45 PM
I've done a Photoshop retouching with some changes
http://users.otenet.gr/~jim08088/LadyPhotoshop2.jpg

What you have to do is make the head smaller the lips also smaller and better formed and the eyes bigger. Also look at my version of the cheen. It's much smaller and I think it better describes what you want

Hope this helps

kerosene
07-31-2003, 07:25 PM
Hey Stoehr

I suppose the "professor" triggered it. I didn't mean to be cocky. But still doing morph targets before having the base models set is waste of time.

I do like perdonal non-hollywood faces alot. Yet all humansa have proportions that are not quite present in your model. I really recommend you have a look at the points I mentioned.

Good luck,

heikki

Stoehr
07-31-2003, 08:56 PM
Changes are on the way. I have to travel for a few days, then I'll post.

Stoehr
08-01-2003, 05:13 AM
So instead of packing for my trip home, I decided it was best to work on the Lady (and the website, but you can't see that yet :)). So here is the update. I'm liking this alot more now! As you can see there are many structural changes. Let me have it!!

http://www.theladyandthelion.com/forumPosts/theLady_betterStructure.jpg

Rumors
08-01-2003, 06:27 AM
Eyelids! When you open your eyes, your eyelid folds under your brow, when you close your eye, the crease goes away. Right now she has no crease when her eyes are open.

Also think about making the eyelids thicker, they look paper-thin.

The proportions look a lot better now.

-Jeff

Solace9
08-01-2003, 06:29 AM
Looking much better.

The thing that looks odd is a section, moving from the tear duct toward the out side of the face, on the upper eyelid, and on the side of the tear duct, there's like a a kink in the lid.

Good progress.

L&R,
S9

Stoehr
08-01-2003, 08:07 AM
Adjusted the eyes.
Sorry about the lighting, the Spotlight rendered faster.
I'm going to bed.

http://www.theladyandthelion.com/forumPosts/thelady_betterStructure01.jpg

Rumors
08-01-2003, 05:54 PM
the eyelid crease needs to be more severe. It's really quite dramatic :)

-Jeff

TheGreenGiant
08-01-2003, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by Stoehr
I will not accept slanderous comments.


I think kerosene was refering to your tag "professor" the bottom of your tag. You should relax a little. It's hardly slanderous and if you're taking offense at that and then ignoring his comments about proportions and what not, you're doing yourself a disservice.

That said, your current model is looking good although despite what you said earlier about Kerosene suggestion pointing you in the direction of a generalisation on your head/character, it does look like it is going that it is going that way. It's not quite a poser head but to me it lacks character. There is nothing in her nose/eye or even lips which seems to say "I am me". Her cheeks/cheekbone (or lack of) structure also seem adds to this perception.

My suggestion is look for images of people who capture the essense of what you're after, be it regality, nobility, arrogance and note what about their facial structure conveys what you're after and work that in. Maybe it's even a pose. Iman is a woman who looks both regal/aloof/beautiful at the same time. And it has got a lot to do with the proportion of her face. Reading this entire post, I get the sense that you're quite literally sculpting it as you go - hence some of the earlier issues with proportion and detailing which arose. Definitely look at photos of real people.

The model's ears quite large at the moment. You should post a side view. I would say they're 20% too big. I would also say that the way they joined to the head is a little strange, there seems to be too big a fleshy mound at the top

And more definition should be added to the areas where the nose joins the cheek. It is too smooth. Again, post a side view.

UrbanFuturistic
08-04-2003, 06:07 AM
There are a few areas that still need adjustment. The nose is too straight-down narrow towards the nostrils and needs widening (not sure I've ever seen a nose shaped like that), have morphed to show a more natural looking adjustment.

Also, it may be just me, but I think her bottom lip is too large in the sense that it curves over entirely to the vertical and goes on for a bit.

The cheeks need to be moved 'vertically' up the face as well, as the face lines just don't match muscle structure of the human face.

Otherwise, the proportions are pretty good, I think the ears are about right height and what I thought to be an overly large forehead seems to be absolutely spot on (the head is actually the same size as my head on this screen), the baldie effect always confuses me.

Finally, don't post any more angry ones please, they make me nervous (!)

regards, Paul

Stoehr
08-04-2003, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by TheGreenGiant
You should relax a little.

Again, post a side view.

It's always very difficult to determine what a persons tone and inflection is when reading their writing. Even if they use exclamation marks, it's difficult to hear how loud they are, or if it is sarcastic/ playful malice or sincere malice. Again, it's difficult at the least when reading someones writing. (The stipulating factor in this tandum argument is the use of the salutation "mr.". Which can be viewed as both respectful or disrespectful, depending on its contextaul use).

Side view as requested. No modifications.

I'm going to work on her more tonight. I too think poses will help define her character. I'll admit, I know this characters emotions way better than I know the way she looks, so some emotive poses and anims would help define the way she looks; along with hair, skin tone, clothing, etc.
About sculpting her: yes, this is definitely my appraoch with her. I didn't want to be influenced by real peoples characteristic characters. At first, I thought to use my wife as a reference, because the Lady reminded me so much of my wife. Yet I decidedly avoided using my wife as a reference, for I feared the Lady wouldn't be her own self. Consequently, I refer solely to the emotions implied in the Grimm Fair Tale. But, now that she is far more developed, I do look to outside resources to help refine her and develop her convincingly (even my wife). Go to www.staceyleathersich.com to see an image of my wife. There are some characteristic similarities between Stacey and the Lady. I apologize, I haven't been very forthcoming about my influenes or reasons why I'm approaching the creation of the Lady in this way, but there will be more explanations on the site soon enough.

All great comments from the last few people. I'll continue.

http://www.theladyandthelion.com/forumPosts/theLady_111side.jpg

Kris-S
08-04-2003, 10:19 PM
I think the ear looks a touch low, and the eye lids are close but not yet their

Stoehr
08-04-2003, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by Rumors
the eyelid crease needs to be more severe. It's really quite dramatic :)

-Jeff
I just realized what I'm doing wrong with the eyelids. Rumors, the image you posted was throwing me off, but I did some more research and found some asian references. There's a particular eye lid/brow I'm looking for and I think I found it. I thought the lid was more rounded. I swear I've seen asian men and women who have nearly no defined eyelid, and I was right; except I was remembering it "backwards". Sorry if I don't make sense, just thinking out loud. I'll be back with a new image.

Stoehr
08-04-2003, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by Kris.s32
I think the ear looks a touch low, and the eye lids are close but not yet their

I found a great resource. http://www.mis.atr.co.jp/~mlyons/facial_expression.html
I'll be back.

Stoehr
08-06-2003, 08:16 AM
All of your suggestions were tried and implemented.
I have to retire from this thread, for school is starting, and I'm shit busy. I just don't have time for it right now.

Look for an update on my website within the week. My site is one thing I want done before school begins.

http://www.theladyandthelion.com/forumPosts/theLady_112.jpg

quazee
08-10-2003, 09:06 PM
Looks nice, but perhaps the ears are a bit big?

mehdianim
08-12-2003, 07:55 AM
I was looking at the lips, perhaps someone already commented on it. But they have an edge when you show the teeth. When you open your mouth the lips make a nice curve from outside all the way to the inside.
And the corner of the lips doesn't stretch out that much. the cvs there should stretch all together in and out no widening, or very little.
it's just a little tweaking but it'll make a big difference

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