Video Game Industry to Change Ratings System

[Meaty]

Cool, I am all for industry self-regulation that empowers parents to make more informed decisions.

[bentllama]

this is almost redundant.

can people not tell by the look of the characters what type of violence might be in the game?

anyway, I can still see some anti-violence groups protesting this decision...

[heavyness]

"can people not tell by the look of the characters what type of violence might be in the game?"

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2001/20010516l.jpg

i'm not counter-pointing you bent, but just adding to the "parent's are dumb and should be beatin over the head with an ugly stick" idea. now i must go play counter-strike cause i typed "counter" earlier...

[gmask]

Originally posted by bentllama
this is almost redundant.

can people not tell by the look of the characters what type of violence might be in the game?

anyway, I can still see some anti-violence groups protesting this decision...


Okay.. I'm trying to not get involved with this thread..


I don't see why anti-violence groups would protest this.. if anything they would protest the attempt to over turn the laws that have been passed that impose penalties that punish vendors for not following the "self imposed" guidelines.

The packaging I have seen for various games that have caused a stir do not really indicate what goes on in the game.. on the cover of vice city is there a rape scene illustration.. now.. the advertising for the game makes the game seem cool and hip ala Miami Vice or something.. which I as I recall mostly dealt with drug smugglers and not vivid depictions of rape.

Parents cannot be expected to be more hip to the games their children are planning than their children. That's why the rating sand the specific categorizations are needed.

Will minors still beable to get games that are rated for 17 and over... probably .. should vendors ignore these guidelines and sell to minors.. No! not if they have any ethics and especially if there are going to be fines involved. If they don't wish it to come to that then they should respect the ratings and let the parents of those minors make the decisions not the children and not the vendors.

Kole: Nice cartoon.. very savvy ;-)

[bentllama]

anti-violence groups would protest, because the violence still exists. cartoon violence, is still violence in their eyes.

case in point: my neighbour would not let her children watch Looney Tunes, for fear of emulating cartoon violence. pity. instead those children, all of whom were boys, played with my little pony and care bears and pound puppies...subjected to schoolyard ridicule and self esteem issues...

so yeah, I can see the extreme anti-violence activists protesting this descision.

[bentllama]

Originally posted by bentllama
can people not tell by the look of the characters what type of violence might be in the game?


oops. forgot about conkers...

this point is moot... ;)

still parents should be informed about the games...looking up reviews online...then basing their parenting on fact

[gmask]

>>>case in point: my neighbour would not let her children watch Looney Tunes, for fear of emulating cartoon violence. pity. instead those children, all of whom were boys, played with my little pony and care bears and pound puppies...subjected to schoolyard ridicule and self esteem issues...


Okay well I would agree that is going to far but I still don't see why they would protest more specific ratings.. they might use the event as an opportunity to protest violence or to promote the banning of such games alltogether but then I would also expect to see them picketting in front of game stores and video rental places equally not for the games but because you can rent Looney Tunes there as well.

If anything boys especially should be forced to go outside and get hurt playing rough games because it will teach them what the actually result of violence is before playing games or toys will. As long as it's nothing more than skinned knee or a bruise it's probably alot more educational.


I have a hardtime comparing Looney Tunes to games where rape is common place. Even still the law that has been passed in Washington wasn't a response to that but to cop violence.

Parents should read reviews and for that matter I can only hope that along with with the rating there is a website that explains why that game got that rating.

[erilaz]

I think it's good that the rating sytem is being revised. I'm sick of my nephew asking me why a game is rated M when "It's only got blah blah blah blah in it!"

Maybe it will provide kids with a better case for their parents to buy the games. Who knows?

[PhilOsirus]

gmask: Well there is absolutly no depiction of rapes or anything close to it on any advertisement, nor the casing, nor in the game, Grand Tefth Auto Vice City.

http://www.rockstargames.com/vicecity/images/buyitnow/box.jpg

Altho there IS a guy with a gun, a car exploding, some mobsters, and a chick in a bikini. Plus the "Graphic violence and gore" or whatever writen as the Parental Advisory tag on the back, with screenshots of actual action and all.

Game companies like RockStar don't need to advertise directly or indirectly at 12 years olds, they represent a very small % of gamers who own a PS2 now.

[mattregnier]

case in point: my neighbour would not let her children watch Looney Tunes, for fear of emulating cartoon violence. pity. instead those children, all of whom were boys, played with my little pony and care bears and pound puppies...subjected to schoolyard ridicule and self esteem issues...


bent-

what's wrong with care bears and pound puppies? i grew up with them and i turned out alright :D ----haha of course the jury may still be out on that one

[bentllama]

Originally posted by mattregnier
bent-

what's wrong with care bears and pound puppies? i grew up with them and i turned out alright :D ----haha of course the jury may still be out on that one

care bears made me want to kill more than any other childhood stimulant of the 80's

[gmask]

>>>Well there is absolutly no depiction of rapes or anything close to it on any advertisement, nor the casing, nor in the game, Grand Tefth Auto Vice City.

Okay maybe there isn't a rape scene but you can pick up prostitutes and beat them to death.. I don't see the difference.

"
A video game glorifying murder, arson and drug dealing has been blasted by children's charities, politicians and psychologists. With 500,000 copies of 'Grand Theft Auto' already in circulation in Britain the game is the fastest selling title ever making £10million in its first week on sale. Highlights include running a pizza delivery boy off the road then reversing over his body, intimidating jurors by smashing up their cars and starting a prison riot. Players can also pick up a prostitute, engage in a sex act and then beat her to death to steal her money. Points are awarded for hijackings and contract killings. "

[PhilOsirus]

Ok well again there is no such thing at all as "points" in this game. There is only money, and the money is where it is in real life (in people's pockets, or handed to you when you finish a job).

It is no different than what you would find in some mobdster movie. As for the prostitutes, well yes ! they do engage in sexual acts (which are depicted by your car shaking left and right, and your money dropping every second). Sure you can then kill her and get the money back, but you can also kill a mobster and take his money, or some random dude, or no one. So no, prostitutes are not invincible in this game, I guess we should blame the programmers for that.

Yes you can run over a delivery boy, just like you can run over anyone else in the game. You can jump off a cliff too, or stand in front of a fast moving car and get hit by it, or hurt your knee if you jump from too high! Ouch!

The story of GTA Vice City is not to simply run around and shoot at everyone, you are just free do so for gameplay purposes. The story is about Tommy Verceti who just got out of jail and is back in business with his old friend. The first thing he has to do is sell some stuff at the port to some other gang, but the whole thing goes wrong. You therefore have to make up to your old pal by starting to take control of Vice City little by little, by working for some other crooks around the city.

The game is full of characters with great voice actors, from your laywer friend Rosenberg to Little Havana's Umberto. And most of all, the game is fun.

It's like one big movie, and no parent who wasn't smart enough to look at the casing for more than 2 seconds or who isn't smart enough to take a look at what he is playing (how about playing with them once in a while?) will prevent me or anyone from playing this or other games like it.

Now at least with the new rating system, parents will not be able to complain, and the whole thing will be settled just like with the movies. If a retailer still sell or rent such games to minors, then it isn't any more or less criminal than selling or renting a mature rated movie to a minor. It's equal in the eyes of the law, and if we are to adress the issue we will -have- to do so with the movies as well.

[gmask]

>> If a retailer still sell or rent such games to minors, then it isn't any more or less criminal than selling or renting a mature rated movie to a minor. It's equal in the eyes of the law, and if we are to adress the issue we will -have- to do so with the movies as well.


I have only ever thought the two things were more or less equivalent..


BTW: What is the penalty related to renting or allowing a minor into a movie that they are not old enough for?

[PhilOsirus]

I never heard of any lawsuit, just complains and sorries. But of course with the videogame industry it's gonna be lawsuits for millions of dollars everyday all the time.

[gmask]

Originally posted by Phil "Osirus"
I never heard of any lawsuit, just complains and sorries. But of course with the videogame industry it's gonna be lawsuits for millions of dollars everyday all the time.

I don't think you understood the question.. If a movie theatre ignores the ratings and sells R tickets to minors there must be some sort of fine or something... otherwise what is to prevent them from doing that.

[PhilOsirus]

Yes I know, but I doubt it is often enforced. Basicly, the parents never hear about it, or if they do they just tell the kid not to, or maybe even botter to go complain, but that's it. I doubt it ever goes much further, not matter what the law says or the fine is. But like I said, people sue everyone in the US, even Nintendo got sued by Columbine parents... Nintendo! So you can bet that the videogame companies will be easy target, we just need a lot of decent judges who won't accept to let unfounded lawsuits (read rackets) go through.

[gmask]

Originally posted by Phil "Osirus"
Yes I know, but I doubt it is often enforced.

Apparently britain is the only country that enforces the ratings for film with a law ..

http://film.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4137990,00.html

[PhilOsirus]

I think it is the best thing to do, keep it advisory. In the end it does not dictate what is right or wrong and makes sure parents remain responsible. All we need is appropriate labeling, appropriate for consumers, game makers, and parents.

[gmask]

Originally posted by Phil "Osirus"
I think it is the best thing to do, keep it advisory. In the end it does not dictate what is right or wrong and makes sure parents remain responsible. All we need is appropriate labeling, appropriate for consumers, game makers, and parents.

You are leaving out store vendors.. they should also respect the advisory and not make parental decisions.. it would be self serving to do so besides also being unethical.

[PhilOsirus]

Except the vendors have nothing to do with how games should be rated, they rent/sell or they don't according to the law, but the rating system has to respect the consumers, game makers, and the parents. It should not use stupid icons like in Europe such as a spider for "Horror" or someone being yelled at for "Discriminatory". It makes it sound like videogame makers are thugs and criminals just because their game contains mature content.

[gmask]

Originally posted by Phil "Osirus"
..they rent/sell or they don't according to the law, but the rating system has to respect the consumers, game makers, and the parents.

All I'm saying is if the store vendors do not also obey the ratings when selling or renting games then what is the point of having the ratings for the parents? The store vendors should have nothing to do with with how the ratings are decided.

We might not be having all this brew ha ha if that were the case.. if vendors were respecting the current ratings..

[PhilOsirus]

Well they are, since there is (or was until recently, not sure anymore) no law that prevents a minor from renting or buying such games. It's clear enough by the look of the box or the "Blood and gore" tag on the back. If the kid is not mature enough to play those games, he should not be mature enough to be given the money to either buy or rent games.

[gmask]

Originally posted by Phil "Osirus"
Well they are, since there is (or was until recently, not sure anymore) no law that prevents a minor from renting or buying such games. It's clear enough by the look of the box or the "Blood and gore" tag on the back. If the kid is not mature enough to play those games, he should not be mature enough to be given the money to either buy or rent games.

Wether or not a minor has the money to buy the game is not a factor in wether or not a vendor should make a parental decision for a customer who is a minor. If the child stole the money does that make it more or less okay than a child who was given the money as an allowance or for mowing lawns. Does having money give people the right to not heed the ratings.. it may be the case that people with money can get away with quite alot .. is that what we need to teach children?

Should minors be allowed to buy porn etc or other adult magazines or comic books simple because if they have money they must be capable of making decisions for themselves?

No-one is capable of determing the maturity of a minor based on such issues..(possession of money is totally arbitrary.. you might as well say little johhny can pick up a pile rocks so he must be old enough) and to say that because the parents cannot intercept every temptation that it makes it okay for store keepers or whoever to step in is ridiculous. Think about all the possible things that such an excuse would not make acceptable.

Minors can get away with alot minus their parents but does that make it okay for adults to exploit that?

Another example.. is .. if a child comes to the store and ask for a six pack for their parents would you sell it to them? If they came into the store and said their parents said it was okay for them to by any game in the store would that be okay? YOu can assume that you trust the child but hen who is the dupe? The vendor or the parents or both.. children can be manipulative.. when did being a good liar justify anything?.. except for presidential matters..

[PhilOsirus]

Well the thing is if there is no law you cannot blame the vendor. So as long as there is no laws to restrict the sale or rent of such content to minor they will not be blame under any circumstance.

Sure I don't want kids to be able to rent porn and buy cigarets but if a law is passed it must make sense and must respect the -legal- consumers without making them feel like they are blood drinking psychopaths simply because of the content of what they rent. If I rent Grand Tefth Auto I don't wanna hear about the impact it has on children if the law prevents them from renting/buying such games. Right now there are already measures taken to insure that parents know what kind of games their kids are playing.

Sure a kid could steal the money, but how many possibilities can you give me about a parent being unable to know what kind of game his child is playing on his 300$ Playstation 2/DVD Player.

Right now it is advisory, I like it that way, and if it changes it has to remain respectfull to the gamers too. But of course the vendors will always have to remain within the law, except that again it will be no different than in any other industry, kids will manage to get what they want somehow, and we will be blamed for the violent content of the games we play in all legality.

How often do you hear about parents suing pornographic movie companies or even PlayBoy because their kids stumbled on one of their products, even when it IS illegal to sell it to them, but videogames get all the blame of the world over laws that do not yet exist (such as Nintendo, the company that has barely any violent content in their videogame, being blamed for the Columbine massacre).

[gmask]

>>>Well the thing is if there is no law you cannot blame the vendor. So as long as there is no laws to restrict the sale or rent of such content to minor they will not be blame under any circumstance.

What exactly do you think I am blaming the vendor for doing?

If the system is like the film ratings sytem and neither are enforced by law then I think like most theatres there shoudlbe some respect of them.

IE if it weren't the case that most store vendors were minding the ratings then there would nto be a need for a law.



>>>If I rent Grand Tefth Auto I don't wanna hear about the impact it has on children if the law prevents them from renting/buying such games.

Fair enough.. but we all continue to hear abut how violence and sex inthe games and the media have said impact..and no law will stem this..

>>>Right now there are already measures taken to insure that parents know what kind of games their kids are playing.

Yes but since vendors are ignoring those advisorys then here comes the law..

>>>Sure a kid could steal the money, but how many possibilities can you give me about a parent being unable to know what kind of game his child is playing on his 300$ Playstation 2/DVD Player.

Phil.. do you have kids? I don't but I have an inkling from my own childhood that it was impossible for my parents to watch me every hour of the day and in comparison to many kids I knew I know they installed values in me but that does not mean that I couldn't get into trouble or make bad decisions when given the chance.

>>>Right now it is advisory, I like it that way, and if it changes it has to remain respectfull to the gamers too. But of course the vendors will always have to remain within the law,

But there is no law except the one in Washington State.

Elaborate on what you mean it has to be respectful to the gamers.


>>except that again it will be no different than in any other industry, kids will manage to get what they want somehow, and we will be blamed for the violent content of the games we play in all legality.

This has been stated over and over again.. since when did getting away with it justify anything? Kid swill be kids.. I think most people know that .. but when businesses start taking advantage of it that is when parents get concerned.

For example.. if children are mature enough to be responsible to have money then should credit card companies be allowed to give credit? personally I don't think so. I don't think they should be allowed credit cards even if they had parental permission. Why? because if this is allowed at all there will be many who will get themselves into trouble. Credit card companies feed on people's weaknesses for money..

I'm not comparing Credit companeis with the game industry. I'm just saying with minors especially if you give a them enough rope they will probably end up hanging themselves. My point being children with money are not neccessarily mature enough to make many decisions... hell even many adults aren't mature enough to make money based decisions but legally they are old enough that they have to be responsible for their actions. Except for when children commit violent acts they are not held as accountable for their actiosn as adults.



>>>How often do you hear about parents suing pornographic movie companies or even PlayBoy because their kids stumbled on one of their products, even when it IS illegal to sell it to them, but videogames get all the blame of the world over laws that do not

Okay I never heard of such a case.. but that is not to say that there hasn't been one.. I remember as a child when we got cable in our area there was the option to get the playboy channel.. I figured out right away how to jam the buttons on the box to unscrable the signal. Anyway it only lasted for several months before the community "banned" the playboy channel. I don't recall the specific reasons but obviously the community decided it was too much of a temptation.

If a child finds adult material in their parents home then it is the parents who brought it there. I do beleive there actually laws about selling such material to minors.


>>>yet exist (such as Nintendo, the company that has barely any violent content in their videogame, being blamed for the Columbine massacre).

Well I don't know why they are sueing Nintendo.. I thought those kids were playing Quake. I think you would also need to sue the gun industry and the parents of those children for not keeping their guns locked.

I met a guy recently that said where he grewup it was common for students to have rifles in the trucks because they would go hunting after school.

A knew a guy in highschool that showed up one day with a plastic machine gun as a joke.. The previous day there had been a bomb threat and of course when he walked into the front door he was greated by detectives. He was very lucky to not have been expelled back then but these days he definately would have been.


So while I feel like there should be ratings and that they should be enforced I cannot say that games directly influence children to do things like this but I do know from my own experience palying them that they can temporarily affect you behaviour and mood. If nothign else an hour long session of playing Quake give sme cramps and a headache and effects my vision. If children play games several hours a day everyday and are constantly over stimulated what are the results.. we don't really know and I think that the gameplay coudl have an adverse effect despite the content but combined with violent content and an elevated pulse rate .. you might endup with a tempermental child.. Of course you may allready have one on your hands to begin with in which case you should really monitor the aount of time is spent on playing games.

[tyryan]

Why do they blame it all on videogames. It may not be as passive as other forms of media but I see more violence on the news than most videogames(besides a handful I.E. grand theft auto, postal, etc.).

[gmask]

Originally posted by tyryan
Why do they blame it all on videogames. It may not be as passive as other forms of media but I see more violence on the news than most videogames(besides a handful I.E. grand theft auto, postal, etc.).

You couldn't possibly blame it all on games.. I think it is partly because violence is on the rise and videogames are relatively new that they two are getting associated with one another more so than any other sources.

However playing games does have more of a physiological effect on the player than movies and other forms of entertainment. Thi has been proven it's the long term effects that have not been proven. It has also not been proven that there is longterm pyschological effects but it is definately the case that witnessing violence does have pyschological impact on children. Is it more impactful than games? I would think so.

[PhilOsirus]

I want a respectable rating system because if we get what they have in Europe it will certainly not be respectable. For exemple, a game like Grand Tefth Auto, which is the equivalent of a movie about the mafia, would get the "Discriminatory" tag with a little picture of a small figure knees bent with his hands over his ears and some tall people around him. That is saying that the content of the game, and therefore those who enjoy the game, are basicly racists woman-hating whatever-else-hating idiots. It should not pass an opinion over the content of the game, but continue with what we already have, basicly, a description of why the game is rated Mature, such as "Graphic violence, blood and gore, suggestive themes". That is respecting the gamers, the game makers, and informing the consumers/parents properly because it simply mentions what is actually found in the game that explains the rating.

The only thing that needs to be changed is the word associated with the ratings. A big T for "Teen" or M for "Mature" is not appropriate in my view, we need an actual age rating such as 17+ and such so parents shut their mouths once and for all. And no the vendor should not be allowed to sell a 13+ game to a 12 years old. But then they better make sure that the age group they associate with the game is appropriate, 13+ for a Mario game simply because you can jump on walking mushrooms is neither violent nor discriminatory, but I've seen my share of stupid advisory tags.

And like I said, a PS2 and the avarage console cost 300$, it is also a DVD player, not merely a game console, and each games cost around 50$. If you are a parent, you better know what your kid rents with YOUR video club card, and what he buys with YOUR money, and when he doesn't buy it with your money, you better check what games he has been playing on obviously YOUR DVD Player/Game Console. If a parent who doesn't check on these things comes and complain to us, I will force him personnally to sue anyone related to all the porn his kid ever stumbled on, either on the net, on jammed TV channels, on magazines in magazine stands, on FOX, and in his sexual education class, plus all the violence he/she ever saw on the news, in the movies, at home, and anywhere else, till the person gives up.

No one will jump on the gaming industry because its alien to them and due to their irresponsibility. Raise your kids properly, it's not as hard as TV would make it seem, and yes your kids will stumble on violent or sexual content in his/her life, and you as a responsible parent will take your responsibility in dealing with appropriately without locking up your kid in a psychological and physical cell.

And all in all, the gaming industry has probably been the most responsible one in all forms of media and consumption products. When the gamers were young, the videogame industry consisted of games for kids, now that it is older some companies make their living by making games for kids and the others for a more mature audience. They don't have time or money to waste in advertising Max Payne 2 to some 8 years old of which 1% might end up buying the game somehow when they can advertise to the actual consumers whom are far more likely to be interested by it and have the means to buy it.

How about you ask the sugar-full-to-an-almost-addictive-amount cereals makers and juice and soft drink makers and fast food makers to be responsible in the content of their products and its advertising that is turning kids into sugar addicts and overweight kids? THAT has been much more harmfull to society and children and is still going on without any concern from the irresponsible parents that give in to the marketing tactics. Keep on feeding kids colored-sugar balls in fat milk every morning and softdrinks and kraft dinner while you blame the videogame industry for the worlds evils.

Oh and you would be suprise to see how the majority of videogame players are mostly liberal in views, no matter how many guns or violence are found in their games.

[gmask]

>>>those who enjoy the game, are basicly racists woman-hating whatever-else-hating idiots. It should not pass an opinion over the content of the game, but continue with what we already have, basicly, a description of why the game is rated Mature, such as "Graphic violence, blood and gore, suggestive themes".

The little judgmental icons do seem a bit much but we don't have those here.

>>>And no the vendor should not be allowed to sell a 13+ game to a 12 years old. But then they better make sure that the age group they associate with the game is appropriate, 13+ for a Mario game simply because you can jump on walking mushrooms is neither violent nor discriminatory, but I've seen my share of stupid advisory tags.

Yeah gotta watch out for mushroom violence. :shame:


>>>How about you ask the sugar-full-to-an-almost-addictive-amount cereals makers and juice and soft drink makers and fast food makers to be responsible in the content of their products and its advertising that is turning kids into sugar addicts and overweight kids?

Well somebody did try to file a class action lawsuit against McD's for these exact reasons.. but I think they lost.

>>>Oh and you would be suprise to see how the majority of videogame players are mostly liberal in views, no matter how many guns or violence are found in their games.

I'll have to take you word for it.. No offense but you are in Canada.. I wouldn't expect the typical Canadian game player and the typical American game player to have the same attitudes about politics especially when it comes to guns although it would be interesting if the attitudes were the same.

[PhilOsirus]

I talk majoritarly with US gamers and beleive me very few of them care about being able to own a gun or anything like that. On top of that a huge number of main characters in videogames are women, doesn't seem to bother anyone.

[gmask]

Originally posted by Phil "Osirus"
I talk majoritarly with US gamers and beleive me very few of them care about being able to own a gun or anything like that. On top of that a huge number of main characters in videogames are women, doesn't seem to bother anyone.


IMO the typical game and gamer objectifies women and since most gamers are young (horny) guys then your poll is biased. So why would it bother them? I'm not saying that more women would play the games if there was less of that. It's just an observation.

In rural and midwestern america people own guns. Maybe it hasn't been a problem in Canada but I suppose the numerous school shootings that have happened here don't count and make of what you want those kids in many cases also played games.

[bentllama]

please do not start laying down the Columbine card. that is just ridiculous. they played games...so what.

alot of killers also read the bible...should we point that out too?

[gmask]

Originally posted by bentllama
please do not start laying down the Columbine card. that is just ridiculous. they played games...so what.

alot of killers also read the bible...should we point that out too?

Phil is the one that brought up guns I thought we were almost done. There have been far more school shooting sthat the infamous one you mention. I'm not even saying that there is a connection but that it is absurd to generalize that gamers don't have guns or at least live in household that doesn't have them..

Gamer also eat cereal and drive cars and do others things.. guns happen to put holes in people more readily than the bible or other blunt objects.

[PhilOsirus]

I never brought up the gun issue, I brought up the lawsuit against Nintendo over the Columbine shootings.

And in the end you are obviously doing what I said the European ratings are already doing, you pass judgement on us as if it was any more acceptable than passing judgement on a culture. See us gamers as womanizing gun totting school shooters if you want. I'll just go play some Metal Gear Solid 3 with a bare-chested big-muscled soldeir. Wait, that would be objectifying men! I'll play Super Mario then. Wait, it is very sexist to save a princess! I guess I'll play ... chess. Wait, black army VS white army? Racism!!!

[Rabid pitbull]

wow this is going down the road of absurd. doesn't matter what the rating is.. it is up to parents to know what their kids are doing, and what they are playing. I for one think it is pointless to rely on any rating system. Besides I also think it is dumb to believe that any stable individual would go from watching a movie, or playing a game and then deciding that this is the way to act in life.:rolleyes: Would I let my 11 year old play vice city? No, but that is for me to decide and a rating system would not play into the decision.

oh well polititions need something to argue about so they can get re-elected for saving all of us fools from ourselves. :thumbsdow

[gmask]

>>>I never brought up the gun issue, I brought up the lawsuit against Nintendo over the Columbine shootings.

Same difference IMO.. I didn't bring either subject into the picture.. if anything I have been trying not to bring those issues into the picture.

The funny thing that one one side there are those who get up in arms about large corporations being sued and then in the other camp there are those who say things like piracy doesn't hurt the large corps. Whatever..

>>>And in the end you are obviously doing what I said the European ratings are already doing, you pass judgement on us as if it was any more acceptable than passing judgement on a culture.

Phil you needs to take chill pill, as if I personally have anything to do with the ratings systems.


>>>See us gamers as womanizing gun totting school shooters if you want. I'll just go play some Metal Gear Solid 3 with a bare-chested big-muscled soldeir. Wait, that would be objectifying men! I'll play Super Mario then. Wait, it is very sexist to save a princess! I guess I'll play ... chess. Wait, black army VS white army? Racism!!!

I'm not passing judgement on wether or not you like to look at objectified men or women but based on conversations I have had here on this forum most "gamers" do not understand what objectification is or isn't. Is it reality that every girl you see in a game usually has gigantic breasts? Would you play a game where all the men had huge buldges in their trousers.. how would you feel about that?

[PhilOsirus]

Would you play a game where all the men had huge buldges in their trousers.. how would you feel about that?

Big buldges in their trousers? No, that would look quite ridiculous, but I have played hundreds of games where men have very muscular bodies. I don't see how it's sexist one way and not the other, but I actually find none sexist.

[gmask]

>>>Big buldges in their trousers? No, that would look quite ridiculous, but I have played hundreds of games where men have very muscular bodies.

No more so than a top heavy female IMO

>>>I don't see how it's sexist one way and not the other, but I actually find none sexist.

The definition of objectification is not the same as sexism..

Sexism

Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender.

Objectification

To present or regard as an object: “Because we have objectified animals, we are able to treat them impersonally” (Barry Lopez).

[PhilOsirus]

No more so than a top heavy female IMO

So you are saying that woman with large breasts look ridiculous? I would feel insulted if I was a woman with large breasts.

And like I said, both men and women are as objectified in videogames if you consider that objectifying. Ask the many girl gamers if they feel objectified in videogames.

[gmask]

>>>So you are saying that woman with large breasts look ridiculous? I would feel insulted if I was a woman with large breasts.

If I were a man with a large buldge in my trousers I would have felt insulted by your previous comment.

>>>And like I said, both men and women are as objectified in videogames if you consider that objectifying. Ask the many girl gamers if they feel objectified in videogames.

Women are presented much more as sex objects than men..if you think that is untrue then you are fooling yourself. The female voice in the CG industry usually gets drowned in a sea machismo. If you think that is also untrue..

So anyway.. we should just agreee to disagree.. we aren't even argueing about game ratings anymore.. I was almost agreeing with you until guns entered the picture.

[PhilOsirus]

Yeah I disagree with someone who considers gamers as women objectifiers and who drown women's opinions in a sea machismo.

And again, I never brought up any gun issue, I brought up a Columbine lawsuit against the videogame equivalent of Disney.

[gmask]

>>Yeah I disagree with someone who considers gamers as women objectifiers and who drown women's opinions in a sea machismo.


I can't help it if that's simply how it is... games are male dominated.. these games contain content that mainly appeal to young men.. guns, violence and sexy girl characters and macho muscle bound male characters.

How often have you ever actually discussed these issues with a woman? I have and most are too intimidated to even approach the issue.

>>And again, I never brought up any gun issue, I brought up a Columbine lawsuit against the videogame equivalent of Disney.

You can't seperate guns and Columbine. Disney has been accused of all sorts of things from being a nazi to using Donald Duck as a messenger of Emperialisitic rhetoric to third world countries. If you want to compare Nintendo to them be my guest.

[PhilOsirus]

Nintendo are the equivalent of Disney in the innocent content of their products.

As to how often I discuss this with women? The thing is, I don't have to, because any videogame website you visit has plenty of letters and threads from women and if you didn't look at the little icon next to their nickname, or the nickname itself, you wouldn't know if the person was a woman or not. And in the end, they play the games they like (that includes Doom and games with big breasted girls or guys with big muscles) and don't play those they don't like, just like all other individuals.

But like I said you are judging us as one judges an ethnic community, which I think is not something that is quite honorable to do.

Can you segragate movie watchers in the same way you segregate gamers? How about all those criminals around the world, they probably saw movies in their lives as well, same for the women objectifiers and all of those, but of course you won't add them to the "movie watchers" group. As if people who play videogames were somewhat more gamers than simply people.

[gmask]

>>As to how often I discuss this with women? The thing is, I don't have to, because any videogame website you visit has plenty of letters and threads from women and if you didn't look at the little icon next to their nickname, or the nickname itself, you wouldn't know if the person was a woman or not.

Well that may be true but I highly doubt the number of women represent anything but a small number of the players.

>>>But like I said you are judging us as one judges an ethnic community, which I think is not something that is quite honorable to do.

Gender and ethnicity are two different subjects.. I'm interested in the demographics and there is nothing dishonorable about that. Otherwise you'd have a huge problem with how games are marketed... do you think must games are point and shoot because that is the only type of game people like to play or is it because most young men who play video games like that kind of gameplay? Last time I checked their were alot of games that don't even require a computer that aren't point and shoot.



>>>Can you segragate movie watchers in the same way you segregate gamers? How about all those criminals around the world, they probably saw movies in their lives as well, same for the women objectifiers and all of those, but of course you won't add them to the "movie watchers" group. As if people who play videogames were somewhat more gamers than simply people.

I'm no way talking about segregation.. all gamers please go to the back of the bus.. what? That really has nothing to do with anything I have said so stop trying to jazz things up.

I'm not a proponent of "play one violent video game and you will become criminal". I have never said that and even those who are opposed to violent video games don't say that. How could that be so.

Gameplay on the otherhand has been proven to have short term effects on physiology.. wether or not this can alter somebodies behaviour long term is unknown. I can't prove anything and neither can you so let's not argue about it.


There is far more variety in content in films than there is in games. I think gamers are of a particular ilk.. some people simple aren't interested or might be if the gameplay was of interest of them. My girlfriend for example sort of likes games but doesn't really like anything fast paced which pretty much rules out any point and shoot type game or games where moving around fast is neccessary to progress in the game or where the game control or complicated. I'd like to see how interested you would be in anythign that fit her interests as far as game play. But as far as movies go we have alot more in common.


Women are objectified in all forms of media. But since we were talking about games then I would say that since young males these days seem very focused on games that I'd like to interject some reality.. women come in all shapes and sizes.. many women are not top heavy. Can you find a woman who is not top heavy appealing? Or do you think that because most women who you see in the media who have been objectified because they have large breasts or because they were designed to have large breasts in game that in order for a woman to be appealing that they must have large breasts? Do you think this kind of imagery has no influence on men's expectation of women? Or is that okay because if a woman wanted to be attractive to those kind of men she could get implants?

[PhilOsirus]

Well here is a girl-run videogame site with a very interesting article on the subject. (http://www.gamegirladvance.com/archives/2003/04/16/genderplay_successes_and_failures_in_character_designs_for_videogames.html).

[gmask]

Originally posted by Phil "Osirus"
Well here is a girl-run videogame site with a very interesting article on the subject. (http://www.gamegirladvance.com/archives/2003/04/16/genderplay_successes_and_failures_in_character_designs_for_videogames.html).


Yup pretty much supports my arguments.. thanks for the link.

BTW .. I was really impressed they had the article on Matthew Barney there.. I haven't seen Cremaster3 but I have seen his other movies and I'm curious as to what this one could have to do with video game narratives.

[FabioMSilva]

there is even a worster type of violence, to watch tv news...and if a child turns on theyre tv they dont even have any opportunity to avoid seeying bloodbaths the tv news show everyday if the parents arent there...games & toys & movies are much more protected with ERSB Ratings. While tv isnt.

:thumbsdow

(Saikano OSt Just rulez!):beer:

[PhilOsirus]

What the article above shows is that women are turned off when games USE sex appeal as its only driving force, such as the games she mentioned. It doesn't stop them from playing games like Grand Theft Auto or Doom.

And what about the girls who play such games? Are they as discriminaiting/obectifying women as well?

And as for movies being more varied, games are as varied as they can be. Raging from sports, racing games, platformers, puzzle games, strategy games, aciton games, adventure games, fighting games, simulation or "God" games like The SIMS or Seaman, and new genres that keep popping up.

It's not my fault if all the attention is being given to "point and shoot" games by the media, since the top selling games in videogame history have been extremely rarely of that genre.

[gmask]

>>>And what about the girls who play such games? Are they as discriminaiting/obectifying women as well?

Well based on the response of the self proclaimed lesbian in reader replies if they play the games because the chicks are hot then yes they are objectifying... just as any guy who plays tomb raider because lara croft is hot.. According to the article game players want good gameplay rather than hot chicks and therefore the new lara croft game she has more normal proportions.

So back to an earlier issue.. wether or not you can see the prosititute being beaten to death or not in Vice City since it seems to be unneccesary to do so in the game as far as winning goes then why is it there? Prositutes are exploited by men in reality so then why should they be beaten to death for it? I don't know what the game makers were thinking in that case or what it says of the player that can't help but to take the time to beat the hooker to death every time they play the game but to me it seems unneccesary and tasteless. Shoudl gamemakers be al little more thoughtful?.. maybe so.

At the same time I would say that the game is about the brutality of the mafia then any character is subject to getting wacked but I find the combination of the implied sex and then murder to be particularily distasteful.. this may be a reality that this happens in real life but games aren't about reality and I think going a step forther and making a game about rape would be completely uncalled for and really offensive to women... even if only adults did ever actually play it. There would be something sick about that. But thankfully there won't be such a game and if there was the salles would probably be pretty low.

You confuse objectifiying and discrimination.. discrimination would be if girls were excluded from games either as characters or as players a a rule. Since most games are designed with men in mind one could say that the industry is discrinating but it's not because the game makers don't want women to play but because it is easier to sell games to boys. More boys play and the content that boys are attracted to is easier to conceive of.

Okay so some games get mroe attention than others even though they may not be the top sellers although I had the impressiont hat GT3 and Vice City were doing pretty well ..I mean considering that Vice City has bus ads and billboards allover LA I would think it does pretty darn well. Is it because it's great game or it has gotten alot of press?

[gmask]

Originally posted by The Solid Snake
there is even a worster type of violence, to watch tv news...and if a child turns on theyre tv they dont even have any opportunity to avoid seeying bloodbaths the tv news show everyday if the parents arent there...games & toys & movies are much more protected with ERSB Ratings. While tv isnt.


Remember the vchip? It was a system that would allow a parent to block show and certain channels that had rating sattached to them but everybody got up in arms about how it was censorship or the chip would be used to somehow spy on the viewers.. or some such nonesense like that. Actually in the US shows do have ratings but it does not seem as mandatory as those for films.

News can be graphic.. but I can't think of many times that they show a blood bath.. I imagine that news in Portugal is more graphic than here.

[Per-Anders]

don't worry gmask... yet again the thought police are on you! but i agree with what you are saying.

[PhilOsirus]

There are prostitutes, politicians, mobsters, cars, birds buildings, police, trees, and all the other things needed to express the idea that you are in a city, and a crime-chaotic-rampant-VICE-City (as in Miami Vice). And this game is one game out of hundreds of thousands, and the goal is not to beat up prostitutes, not anymore than being beat up by other mobsters, altho it happens. And there is no rape in Vice City.

The game is popular because it is very fun, period. You can quesiton our enjoyment of it, but I can question your enjoyment of anything you do as well, or watch, or eat, but I don't, because as long as it is not criminal (and this game is far from being criminal, as far as any book or movie containing such scenes) it is of your business.

And you seem to avoid the idea that yes some woman who play games like Vice City cannot enjoy them for the same reason as men unless they are more man than woman.

As for the VChip I don't care, they just need to allow people to choose wether they want it or not, the goverment has no right to get involve in that.

[gmask]

>>And there is no rape in Vice City.

Rape:

The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.

The act of seizing and carrying off by force; abduction.

Abusive or improper treatment; violation: a rape of justice.


I would called be murdered after hacing sex rape by the last definition.. it would be abusive and improper to treat your prostitute that way.



>>>The game is popular because it is very fun, period. You can quesiton our enjoyment of it, but I can question your enjoyment of anything you do as well, or watch, or eat, but I don't, because as long as it is not criminal (and this game is far from being criminal, as far as any book or movie containing such scenes) it is of your business.

Yeah it's none of my business what you enjoy.. I don't want to know what else you might find amusing. But I never said it was criminal and neither is anybody else.

>>>And you seem to avoid the idea that yes some woman who play games like Vice City cannot enjoy them for the same reason as men unless they are more man than woman.

Again I never said that.. are you saying that because lesbians are attracted to women that they are more man than woman.. I'm not saying that.

What I am saying is that because we objectifiy both men and women objectify each other that those values are not neccesarily healthy. Is taking steroids to get muscular healthy? Certainly no less so than puking up your lunch or becoming addicted to laxatives to keep your weight down.. yet those habits are because people want to objectify themselves and others.

[PhilOsirus]

You're the one who replied to "If a woman enjoy such games, is she objectifying/discriminating women too" by saying Well based on the response of the self proclaimed lesbian in reader replies if they play the games because the chicks are hot then yes they are objectifying.

I'm talking about the avarage woman being able to enjoy such games just like any other gamer, and you throw in the idea that "well if they are lesbians and play them because the girls are hot" then they are objectifying women as well. That is doing psychological gymnastic to avoid a possible point against your own argument. Me I am saying that neither the women nor men are objectifying each other in videogames.

And you are making videogames responsible for the way women are being portrayed in movies, magazines, TV, adds, etc. Again, the videogames are being set apart from other forms of media and their possible mistakes that are found everywhere els ein society is blown to immense proportions as if videogames had to turn into the world's angels, probably by dissapearing.

[gmask]

Originally posted by Phil "Osirus"
You're the one who replied to "If a woman enjoy such games, is she objectifying/discriminating women too" by saying .

I'm talking about the avarage woman being able to enjoy such games just like any other gamer, and you throw in the idea that "well if they are lesbians and play them because the girls are hot" then they are objectifying women as well. That is doing psychological gymnastic to avoid a possible point against your own argument.

There are two sides to objectification.. the person being objectified and the person who views it as an object. Just because a person plays a game where the characters are objectified does not mean that the viwer is attrated to that or buys into themself. However it is clear that the amount of exposure the masses gets to these images does have an impact and can effect one's psychological to where they objectifiy themselves... to a point where it is unhealthy and makes them unhappy.


I'm not saying if they were lesbians I was only quoting the statement of a lesbian. There is no such thing as one view of feminism. Just because a woman is a lesbian does not mean that she is attracted to the same female stereotype that men are attracted to nor does it mean that they aren't.

Gamemakers objectified women when they give them outrageously large breasts and players objectify when they ogle the breast or any part of the anatomy. It becomes an issue when a person does not know the difference between what is objectified and what isn't.

[PhilOsirus]

What about Perfect Dark, a first person shooter where you don't see the character 95% of the time, and yet is a woman with athletic yet normal proportions?

Or Metroid, a sci-fi adventure game where the woman protagonist wears a space suit that prevents you from knowing she's even a woman (as a matter of fact, nobody knew until the end in the first game).

Or Soul Calibur, a fighting game where the woman are as strong as the men characters and wear outfits as revealing as them, and whom's individual stories always revolved around their personal strenght, such as one who grew up among boys, fought with them and wants to proove her father she is as capable as them?

Or Xenosaga, a sci-fi adventure title, with a glass-wearing scientist with no skimpy outfit, as the main heroine?

Or Devil May Cry 2, where you can choose between Dante the demon slayer who looks like an 80s rock star, or his female equivalent whom does not wear a skimpy outfit either?

I can keep on naming more and more such games that are among the best selling titles of the console gaming industry.

And you did not answer the point that other forms of media such as movies, TV, magazines, and adds, are objectifying women (and I beleive much more so and in a far worst manner), and why videogames should be singled out when I could name you a hundred game for every Tomb Raider (which as you said, the makers of will change the look of Lara Croft since she looked ridiculous comparared to the avarage videogame heroine).

Videogames will continue to have muscular soldeirs and athletic alien-hunters, as much as racing games will continue to have fast cars, and football will have players who are big enough to bring others down.

[gmask]

Well I'm pretty much tired of discussing this with you.. I never made any statement that all games objectifiy women.. however if I did I was only echoing the statements made by other people in the industry here.. that have said things like "all women in games must be hot"... that's a quote.. I begged to differ.. and according to the article I am right.. games don't have to objectify to sell.

I have repeatably stated that all forms of media objective both male and female and what the results of that are but today we are talking about games.

Is the game industry being singled out.. well currently it is the area of media that is being focused on but this debate has progressed from one form to the next and now it's gotten to games. I'm certain that the games industry will weather the trials and tribulations of it without much detriment... do you think the film or television industry has changed much do to protests by such anti-violence groups?

>>Videogames will continue to have muscular soldeirs and athletic alien-hunters, as much as racing games will continue to have fast cars, and football will have players who are big enough to bring others down.

Yeah I like how you compare fantasy with reality.. obviously in a game you could win without brute force.. if you wanted you could have a totally skinny character beat hulk hogan any day if you knew the right moves.. size in the virtual world is arbitrary and irrelevant.

[Meaty]

Originally posted by Phil "Osirus"
Big buldges in their trousers? No, that would look quite ridiculous!

Are you saying I look rediculous, I am insulted!:D

[PhilOsirus]

Yeah I like how you compare fantasy with reality.. obviously in a game you could win without brute force.. if you wanted you could have a totally skinny character beat hulk hogan any day if you knew the right moves.. size in the virtual world is arbitrary and irrelevant.

I was talking about racing games and football games. And you can take a muscle-less girl in a fighting game and beat up a huge hulk-like character.

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