Maya now 20%-25% Mac

[xzevlin]

Are there any big studios using Maya on OSX, or is it all smaller shop and solo animators?

[Per-Anders]

The company says this shows that Maya is the leading 3D animation software package on the Mac.

It does? :surprised

Wow... they must use the same marketing team as Apple (and I'm a dyed in the wool Mac user).

[Rhs_CG]

Some of the bigger studios were trying it out. Not sure if any decided to use it though. When it was first released, it wasn't up to par with the other platforms in terms of stability and features (OSX was at v3.5 while all others were v4).

[Peter Reynolds]

Well I don't know about studio wide, but I know at least a couple of the Weta lads are running maya for mac.

Jason?

[Per-Anders]

one good thing about Maya for Mac... they actually bothered to optimise the ogl. the PLE on my Dual G4 867mhz using a gf4ti card feels slightly more responsive than the Maya ple running on my 3ghz p4 800fsb with it's ati 9800pro. of course it's the other way around with other 3d apps, where the P4 wipes the floor with the mac... especially Cinema.

anyhow, I'm sure it would scream on one of the new g5's.

however no matter what percentage of licenses for Maya are mac that has no bearing on whether it is the most popular or number 1 (number 1 what?) 3d app on the mac platform. if i sold a hundred copies of a dual platform bitmap editing app and 99% (hey it could be any arbitrary figure) were on mac... would that prove that my app was becoming the number one image editor for the platform?... shift over Photoshop here i come (according to a|w). i think they've been in close proximity to Steve Jobs for too long.

[feefunk]

Originally posted by xzevlin
Are there any big studios using Maya on OSX, or is it all smaller shop and solo animators?


The Orphanage in San Francisco uses Maya for Mac.

their latest project (http://www.uemedia.com/CPC/article_9899.shtml)

[Chewey]

http://www.ancientspear.com/mac.wmv

[Marc Andreoli]

Originally posted by Chewey
http://www.ancientspear.com/mac.wmv

chewey, thanks for this pertinent, totally on topic piece of information.
Oh, it is supposed to be funnnnnnnny. :rolleyes:

If you want to see a good switch ad parody, check this out (http://mindoverpixels.com/anim_monkey.html):p

[Chewey]

That was cute but my link contained more truth and less clay.:beer:

Those 20% to 25% figures are laughable..:thumbsdow

[gruvsyco]

Originally posted by Marc Andreoli
chewey, thanks for this pertinent, totally on topic piece of information.
Oh, it is supposed to be funnnnnnnny. :rolleyes:

If you want to see a good switch ad parody, check this out (http://mindoverpixels.com/anim_monkey.html):p

There is more humor to Cheweys post than meets the eye. The irony of posting that file as a .wmv is classic.

[Per-Anders]

nah, i think the 20/25% figures are true. theyr'e straight from the horses mouth so to speak, coming from A|W. and it's not inconcievable. while macs may account for very little of the home market, they do account for a high proportion of the profesional graphics market. how many graphics companies do you know that simply don't have at least one mac?

[Joviex]

Originally posted by Chewey
That was cute but my link contained more truth and less clay.:beer:

Those 20% to 25% figures are laughable..:thumbsdow

Even more so when they said that Maya is the leading 3d package on the Mac. That means even if those figures are correct, the rest of the good 3d software is lagging behind.

Mac's are great for editing and sound, we have three, we do not even go there when doing 3d.

Hmmm, didn't intend that to be a couplet.

[Per-Anders]

it's not the leading app on the mac. maya for mac doesn't even match up to the sales of lightwave, or EIU i bet. Cinema4D has around a 50% mac usage, according to 3D world not so long ago Cinema had rather more licenses than Maya worldwide, in fact cinema was in third placeamong high-end 3d apps last thing i heard (of course we all know that max is number 1). A|W's claim is rather erroneous, they could argue number1 most powerful software, or number 1 software with paintfx in it... :shrug:

[fig]

i believe reality check (http://www.realityx.com/) is a mac/maya studio as well. interesting article either way.

chris

[halo]

you have to read pr releases carefully for the facts and the spin....a|w are saying 25% of maya sales are for the mac, but they fall short of saying that maya is the largest selling 3d app for the mac....they use the term "leading" which is like saying its the app that smells most like roses...totally unquantifiable, but sounds good if you skip read...

[feefunk]

You have to read carefully... the press release talks about licenses SOLD, not about installed user base.

That just means that from the licences they sell presently, 20 to 25% of these are for Mac OS X.
Don't jump to conclusions so quick!

And as far as the claim to being the "leading 3D application on the mac" well I don't know what the heck A|W means.

[beaker]

Other big mac studios for visualfx:
http://www.tweakfilms.com/
http://www.stregaimaging.com/
http://www.theorphanage.com/
http://www.pixelmagicfx.com/

Many of them are ex-ILM guys that formed studios.

http://home.earthlink.net/~tvaziri/pro.html

[Fasty]

100% of Lightwave seats sold are for mac AND pc (last time I checked).

[Saurus]

Mac had always been strong in video and I can see studios (smaller companies) with Mac base video editing system moving towards Mac base 3D systems. Bigger companies are less likely to switch their 3D system towards Macs. But when taking about gaming companies, that’s a different story. I never heard of a company (big or small) using Macs...and this is a big industry, it probably passed video/film industry already. With that said, I can see, Mac base, multimedia base companies getting into gaming sticking to Macs.

Saurus

[moovieboy]

My feelings about Macs and the gaming industry generally revolves around:

a) mistakes Apple and game makers made regarding each other when both industries were younger...

b) 3D Studio Max never porting over to Mac. That has always been a head scratcher for me, since all other affordable 3D software has been open to Macs for years, and discreet has made past leaps with combustion...

It's a shame because I think the inclusion of Mac-only designers to the gaming field would benefit everyone...

-Tom

[Bobo]

Originally posted by moovieboy
b) 3D Studio Max never porting over to Mac. That has always been a head scratcher for me, since all other affordable 3D software has been open to Macs for years, and discreet has made past leaps with combustion...
[/B]

Ok, this is rather OT, but...

This has of course historical reasons.
Discreet Logic's Paint* and Effect* software were not developed inhouse but acquired from a company called Illuminaire and originally developed as multi-platform. When Combustion was made as the next generation Paint and Effects package by Discreet, this tradition was simply prolonged. These products were just developed with portability in mind.

On the other hand, 3D Studio Max was originally developed in dark DOS/Win3.1 times for Windows NT. Back in those days around 1993-94, NT 3.5x was incoming technology nobody actually used and was the "next great thing" to come. 3D acceleration on the PC was also in its early days, with the first 3DLabs cards supported under NT. If you take a look at what was available on the Mac in those days in terms of 3D, you might understand the decision to make 3D Studio MAX "NT only". (If I remember correctly, in those days the question was rather - OS/2 Warp or NT ... OS/2 What?)
Unfortunately, this philosophy made the software very difficult (let's say impossible) to port as it relied too much on the Windows API. Taking into account that the Yost Group counted less than 10 people, it was still a great achievement.

The resources needed to port to a different OS (and we are not talking OS X here, but OS 8 or 9 on far inferior hardware in the late 90s) would have probably killed the Windows development which would have made most users quite upset...

Just my 2 cents.

[moovieboy]

Very interesting... danke, Bobo!

-Tom

[ntmonkey]

Here at FullSail, we have a Mac lab with tons of systems and these gorgeous 23-in Cinema Displays. They're used to woo future FullSail students and their parents to drop about 30k to enroll I think. Anyway, since we use Shake as our compositing software, I think our school went Mac to have the availability of both Shake (since its cheaper on mac platform) and maya all on one machine. Shake works fine. Maya runs like crap on those Macs. And the 23-in displays, tho nice, will never replace dual monitor setups.

IMO, I think studio's are going Mac because you can have a good compositer and do 3D relatively cheap on a Mac and have it all on one machine (not how I would do it). Again, its a money issue.

Lu

[dudeguy]

Originally posted by moovieboy
The company says this shows that Maya is the leading 3D animation software package on the Mac.

Well what other highend 3D packages are available on the Mac?

Lightwave...and that's about it.
Softimage? No.
3DS Max? No.

Considering that Maya seems to be dominating the industry right now anyways, saying that it's the leading 3D package on the Mac, doesn't really say much about Mac once again trying prove it's superiority.

Also I just read an article in 3D world regarding Maya 5.

The magazine gave Maya 5 a great review, but their one complaint was that Maya 5 was not available for OSX.

This always confuses me, but why do Mac users complain about compatibility issues when they choose to work on a Mac? Compatibility issues are the name of your game. Don't complain about bears if you choose to live in a bear cave.

3D World also asked Alias Wavefront about Maya 5 on OSX and their response was something like "We are still researching that market to see if it's worth investing into".

Not really a good sign for Maya on the Mac if you ask me.

Don't get me wrong I'm not anti Mac or anything. I think they are great for some things, like audio, some 2D work, but I really don't think they have any business with 3D.

[Marc Andreoli]

Originally posted by dudeguy
Also I just read an article in 3D world regarding Maya 5.

The magazine gave Maya 5 a great review, but their one complaint was that Maya 5 was not available for OSX.

...

3D World also asked Alias Wavefront about Maya 5 on OSX and their response was something like "We are still researching that market to see if it's worth investing into".

Not really a good sign for Maya on the Mac if you ask me.


Maya 5 was released on OSX at the same time as the windows version, it has been like that since version 4 (I think). But you can only get the 'complete' package for OSX, not 'unlimited'. They never ported Fluid Effects, Cloth, Fur etc.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by moovieboy
All right boys & girls, the last thing I want is another flame war about Macs and "serious 3D"... but here's some fresh news for y'all to chew on:

First Paragraph:

Mac OS X accounts for 20 percent-plus of Maya sales
By Peter Cohen pcohen@maccentral.com
June 27, 2003 1:05 pm ET

Alias/Wavefront has reported that 25 percent of all commercial units of Maya are now sold for the Mac OS X platform in North America and 20 percent globally. The company says this shows that Maya is the leading 3D animation software package on the Mac.

Full story here (http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2003/06/27/maya/)


-Tom


hmmmm........

so that would mean:


Windows accounts for 80 percent-plus of Maya sales


Alias/Wavefront has reported that 75 percent of all commercial units of Maya are now sold for the Windows platform in North America and 80 percent globally. And this shows that Windows is the leading platform for Maya [/B]


Just to put it into some perspective.

[moovieboy]

Originally posted by dudeguy
This always confuses me, but why do Mac users complain about compatibility issues when they choose to work on a Mac? Compatibility issues are the name of your game. Don't complain about bears if you choose to live in a bear cave.

It's very simple: Many artists have either been with their macs well before ANY 3D program came to the desktop, or were using them in other fields (editing, 2D, audio) and with job descriptions blurring all the time, now wish to expand into 3D.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with criticizing/complaining about a company that doesn't port over, especially concerning an area where many have chosen to support OSX.

Your example of "XSI and 3DS" actually serves my arguement more appropriately because Lightwave, Maya (complete), Wings, Blender, Truespace, Vue, Bryce, Poser, Cinema, Animation Master, Carrara, Kaydara, Toon Boom, Electric Image, and (potentially) Renderman are all OSX...

And why did many of these companies decide to do this? From Mac folks complaining.

So, yes, we'll keep complaining about the bears until we get animal control (and then IKEA) into our caves :D

-Tom

[Marc Andreoli]

MadMax: Yes, right, but that would be 80% minus, and don't forget there is linux as well ;)

Still pretty incredible numbers for the mac, don't you think ?

[moovieboy]

Originally posted by MadMax
Just to put it into some perspective.

Actually it doesn't, sorry. Using that angle, Maya sales of Windows licenses have fallen from 100% of the total market to 75%-80% in just a few years. That would be a more accurate reflection in view of the release.

Yes, 75% is still bigger than 25%... but then, so what? I'm willing to bet many naysayers had said Maya on Macs would never get past 5%, right?

I just believe it's good news, no matter how you slice it...:beer:

-Tom

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Marc Andreoli
MadMax: Yes, right, but that would be 80% minus, and don't forget there is linux as well ;)

Still pretty incredible numbers for the mac, don't you think ?

Sure that's pretty good. I wouldn't have expected it to be over 5%.

Personally I don't care either way, whatever works.

Unfortunately it always seems when I have a project that has to go to a Mac guy, they have problems.

Anything from not being able to open a standard DVD of files I sent, or I have to spend twice the effort to accomodate a Mac user for one reason or another.

I'll stick to the x86 format until Macs are more competitive in speed, price and software.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by moovieboy
Actually it doesn't, sorry. Using that angle, Maya sales of Windows licenses have fallen from 100% of the total market to 75%-80% in just a few years. That would be a more accurate reflection in view of the release.

Yes, 75% is still bigger than 25%... but then, so what? I'm willing to bet many naysayers had said Maya on Macs would never get past 5%, right?


Actually it does, sorry.

You're using a very flawed argument to make your case if you are going to argue that 25% of their sales to a platform that has a 2% marketshare translates to big numbers.

You are not going to see Sony, or Digital Domain or others converting to Macs.

[moovieboy]

Originally posted by MadMax
Actually it does, sorry.

You're using a very flawed argument to make your case if you are going to argue that 25% of their sales to a platform that has a 2% marketshare translates to big numbers.

You are not going to see Sony, or Digital Domain or others converting to Macs.

What flawed argument? I never said anything about "big numbers" or that big studios like Sony or DD will convert. Nothing of the sort.

Besides linking the original story, all I've really said is I'm glad the Maya/Mac gamble appears to be paying off, and take a 0% to 25% increase as wonderful news regardless of how a "perspective change" can make it look like nothing.

Us computer geeks (and especially 3D/CG ones) surely make up less than 1% of the world's population. Because 99%+ of the world's people are non-CG freaks, does that now make EVERYTHING we do, EVERY accomplishment worthless? :hmm:

-Tom

[dudeguy]

Originally posted by moovieboy
It's very simple: Many artists have either been with their macs well before ANY 3D program came to the desktop, or were using them in other fields (editing, 2D, audio) and with job descriptions blurring all the time, now wish to expand into 3D.

That's a hurting argument. If you're in the tech industry, you better start learning to adapt as technology changes or you will be left behind. Just because you are compfortable with a Mac, or a PC, or whatever, doesn't give you the right to complain about what applications are available for them. If you wish to expand into 3D, then you need to take the neccessary steps and start working on whatever platform the programs are readily available, not sitting and waiting idly by for the package to come to you. Just my 2 cents.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with criticizing/complaining about a company that doesn't port over, especially concerning an area where many have chosen to support OSX. Sure there is. If you're a die hard OSX supporter, then you should know what you're getting into. I'll use the analogy from Kevin Smith's Clerks regarding the contract construction workers of the death star, they knew what the empire was all about and the risks involved, they were not innocent civilians. Same goes for Mac users, you know what a Mac is all about: uncompatiblity

I'm a longtime dos/windows user that had to pickup unix/linux quickly in order to stay on top of certain 3d packages that I needed to know, and I would do it again if I had to.

Sorry, but I have little sympathy for Mac users who are constantly bitching about compatibility problems, why don't Mac users follow their own advice and make the switch?

Your example of "XSI and 3DS" actually serves my arguement more appropriately because Lightwave, Maya (complete), Wings, Blender, Truespace, Vue, Bryce, Poser, Cinema, Animation Master, Carrara, Kaydara, Toon Boom, Electric Image, and (potentially) Renderman are all OSX... I was just talking about highend packages for the serious 3D professional, I know you said you did not want to get into that, but ultimately that is what it comes down to. Programs like Truespace, Bryce, Poser do not compete with Maya, regardless the OS. Those programs you mentioned are also all on PC. What's your point?

And why did many of these companies decide to do this? From Mac folks complaining. My main beef about this is that I hope the Alias Wavefront team isn't taking away effort that could be used to improve the package in order to please Mac users with large amounts of compatibility problems.

So, yes, we'll keep complaining about the bears until we get animal control (and then IKEA) into our caves :D

-Tom Keep complaining, meanwhile I'll be working with Maya Unlimited AND building models for the highly anticipated Half-life 2 with XSI the day it comes out while you sit and play Doom2...sorry make that Doom. :D

[MadMax]

Originally posted by moovieboy
What flawed argument? I never said anything about "big numbers" or that big studios like Sony or DD will convert. Nothing of the sort.

Actually your response had all kinds of flaws in it, most of which would take far more energy than I care to waste my time on. Not the least of which is your assertion that Mac sales means that Windows sales lost anything at all.

That there was a Mac version available at all means they'll get sales which ultimately will add to their sales figures.
This doesn't mean that PC sales slipped, only that A|W's overall marketshare has grown due to OSX sales and the fact that there is virtually no decent 3D software available for the Mac.

Try to understand something about business before you make irrational assesments about marketshare that are inaccurate.

all I've really said is I'm glad the Maya/Mac gamble appears to be paying off, and take a 0% to 25% increase as wonderful news regardless of how a "perspective change" can make it look like nothing.

Great, you got Maya Complete. Unfortunately A|W hasn't comitted to Unlimited for Mac, which causes no end of problems with Wanna be Pros using Macs that force the rest of us to jump through hoops to accomodate you. My current project is going to Mac guys, and they don't have a fraction of the options I do, so I have to take triple the time to accomodate their needs.

A Plus for you guys, a HUGE headache for the other 80% of us.


Us computer geeks (and especially 3D/CG ones) surely make up less than 1% of the world's population. Because 99%+ of the world's people are non-CG freaks, does that now make EVERYTHING we do, EVERY accomplishment worthless?
-Tom


And since 3D types make up less than 1% of the populace, you realize that Mac users make up less than 2% of that 1% and 3D Mac users even less right?

Please spare me the intellectually devoid remarks about accomplishments being worthless, I never said anything even remotely like that, and you know it.

God I should know better than to respond to the fanatic fringe.......

Note to self:

Quit responding to religious zealots. You'll never get anything beyond looney replies.

[moovieboy]

Originally posted by dudeguy
Just because you are compfortable with a Mac, or a PC, or whatever, doesn't give you the right to complain about what applications are available for them.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one

I'm a longtime dos/windows user that had to pickup unix/linux quickly in order to stay on top of certain 3d packages that I needed to know, and I would do it again if I had to.

That's fine, but tossing out potentially tens of thousands of dollars of infastructure in hardware and software isn't exactly the most practical solution either.

Those programs you mentioned are also all on PC. What's your point?

That was my point :D

My main beef about this is that I hope the Alias Wavefront team isn't taking away effort that could be used to improve the package in order to please Mac users with large amounts of compatibility problems.

You don't honestly believe that do you?

Keep complaining, meanwhile I'll be working with Maya Unlimited AND building models for the highly anticipated Half-life 2 with XSI the day it comes out while you sit and play Doom2...sorry make that Doom. :D

Um, okay, except I don't have time to play as I'm usually too busy working on projects for various Sundance Filmmakers, the Sundance Channel, the Discovery Channels, and some guy who produced something called "The Terminator?" And they don't care what platform I used, which is ultimately THE point, isn't it?:p

-Tom

[moovieboy]

Originally posted by MadMax
Note to self:

Quit responding to religious zealots. You'll never get anything beyond looney replies.

Hee hee! That's funny for two reasons:

1) Surely you said that just to goad me or something because I have yet to say anything that falls within the "looney" zone. I'm actually curious to see what's so outrageous about anything I've mentioned :shrug:

2) I've been typing most of these replies from an NT box here at work... :D

-Tom

[Mondo]

First of all who gives a crap about macs or even maya. All I know is i'm using Constructor3d for Amiga. AMIGA FOR LIFE!!!!

http://www.dotsphinx.com/software/demo3d/constructor3d/gfx/scrshot-small.gif

AmigaOS3.1 is an OSX killa!

[moovieboy]

Originally posted by Mondo
First of all who gives a crap about macs or even maya. All I know is i'm using Constructor3d for Amiga. AMIGA FOR LIFE!!!!

http://www.dotsphinx.com/software/demo3d/constructor3d/gfx/scrshot-small.gif

AmigaOS3.1 is an OSX killa!

Forget everything I said, I'm sooooo drooling for that! Gimme!



:thumbsup: Mondo!

-Tom

[Longbowan]

Did 3Dmax say anything about opening a new platform for 0X?

[Marc Andreoli]

Originally posted by dudeguy
That's a hurting argument. If you're in the tech industry, you better start learning to adapt as technology changes or you will be left behind. Just because you are compfortable with a Mac, or a PC, or whatever, doesn't give you the right to complain about what applications are available for them. If you wish to expand into 3D, then you need to take the neccessary steps and start working on whatever platform the programs are readily available, not sitting and waiting idly by for the package to come to you. Just my 2 cents.


should technology accomodate the user or should the user accomodate the technology ? :shrug:

You will be assimilated...:surprised

(and you know there is a horde of mac users out there waiting idly in front of their computers staring at a blank screen :rolleyes: )

[Marc Andreoli]

Originally posted by MadMax
Actually your response had all kinds of flaws in it, most of which would take far more energy than I care to waste my time on. Not the least of which is your assertion that Mac sales means that Windows sales lost anything at all.

That there was a Mac version available at all means they'll get sales which ultimately will add to their sales figures.
This doesn't mean that PC sales slipped, only that A|W's overall marketshare has grown due to OSX sales and the fact that there is virtually no decent 3D software available for the Mac.

Try to understand something about business before you make irrational assesments about marketshare that are inaccurate.


Actually, you were the first one to mention Windows sales...and nobody said Maya for Win sales lost anything to OSX.


Great, you got Maya Complete. Unfortunately A|W hasn't comitted to Unlimited for Mac, which causes no end of problems with Wanna be Pros using Macs that force the rest of us to jump through hoops to accomodate you. My current project is going to Mac guys, and they don't have a fraction of the options I do, so I have to take triple the time to accomodate their needs.

A Plus for you guys, a HUGE headache for the other 80% of us.


that is an interesting point actually. Are those 'headaches' mainly due to the lack of 'unlimited' or is it mostly a platform specific problem ? Do you have similar troubles with linux ? Just curious.


And since 3D types make up less than 1% of the populace, you realize that Mac users make up less than 2% of that 1% and 3D Mac users even less right?


sorry, but I cannot resist. You question other people's ability to understand basic business principles but you never manage to get your percentages right: what is the difference between a 3D type that uses a mac, and a 3D mac user ? :D

[Bobo]

Originally posted by Longbowan
Did 3Dmax say anything about opening a new platform for 0X?

Say what?
Could you please add some more details to your question so I can understand what you were asking?
Thanks in advance! :)

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Marc Andreoli
Actually, you were the first one to mention Windows sales...and nobody said Maya for Win sales lost anything to OSX.

First off, my original post had absolutely nothing to do with Mac bashing. IF I thoght the Mac were a better platform, I'd use it. Personally I think that OSX is kinda slick and anything that ISN'T from M$ is okay with me. It would be nice if Jobs pulled his head out of his ass and release OSX as a multiplatform OS, but that'll never happen.

As I said in my original post, putting it in perspective. Windows is still 75-80% of Maya sales.

And you better go back and re read the posts. You clearly missed one.

Quoting Movieboy:

Maya sales of Windows licenses have fallen from 100% of the total market to 75%-80% in just a few years.

that is an interesting point actually. Are those 'headaches' mainly due to the lack of 'unlimited' or is it mostly a platform specific problem ? Do you have similar troubles with linux ? Just curious.[/B]

The troubles with Mac users know no bounds. I could write a book on the subject.

So I'll give you an example......

I am currently working on FX for a film. There are a ton of visual effects for it that absolutely either require Unlimited or a boatload of additional plug ins unless you delight in doing everything the absolute hard way. Tons of cloth, Fur, particles etc. In fact well over 80% of the work is done using stuff specific to Unlimited.

I was hired based on talent, not an OS.

Unfortunately they informed me after I started work that they were using OSX.

So I took on a huge additional load of work, having to do setups and compositing as well, instead of just making the models. Then I took a sequence after it had been rendered, saved out individual .TIF files and Alpha channels for their compositor who is using AE on a Mac. Burned to DVD, standard, generic 9660 disc. Imagine my surprise (sarcasm here) when they called me and said they couldn't read the disc on any of their machines. And before you presume the problem was mine, I have all the latest gear, and all the latest firmwares. I told them find someone with a "PC" and copy it. Sure enough, no problems.


Now I get to deal with the fact they give me characters that have long flowing robes and lots of motion from airflow in the film footage. It seems they couldn't work with the files I sent them on that either. My only option then is to either keyframe every single aspect of flowing cloth, or tell them to go out and buy a "PC", or better yet, drop 2200.00 on Syflex cloth so we can actually get something done.

In the end, my job of modeling characters, and specific sets has expanded to include heavy keyframing, compositing and damn near everything else related to this job for the same pay. The only positive out of all this is that I demanded to be bumped up to the title of Visual Effects Producer, which they agreed to and that at least was worth the addition to my resume.

sorry, but I cannot resist. You question other people's ability to understand basic business principles but you never manage to get your percentages right: what is the difference between a 3D type that uses a mac, and a 3D mac user ? :D [/B]

How do you derive any comparison over my comments about basic business knowledge and ballpark percentages?

My percentages are just fine, and it was really easy to follow although you seem easily confused with the difference between a 3D type using Mac and a 3D mac user. Even stranger since nothing like that was even brought up by anyone. I find it funny you would attack my ballpark estimates while embracing Apples wild and unrealistic numbers they are so fond of spouting.

Mac accounts for maybe 2% of the computer marketshare period.

Of that very tiny number, actual 3D Mac users are a small fraction of that 2% of the marketshare. Maybe 10% if you're lucky? more? Seems doubtful that 1 in 10 macs sold are to 3D types but I suppose it may be possible. Mac types have generally been artist sales or graphics related anyway so maybe. However it still gives you an idea overall how small the numbers are.

Regardless, the 20-25% numbers are not really so amazing since Maya price tanked to 1995.00 a year or so ago, that's why you see such a rise in Mac sales. When it was 7995.00 where were the Mac sales? the "PC" market had PLENTY of sales in that price range. Now that they have lowered it to a point where any one can buy it, this rise in Mac sales doesn't come as much of a surprise at all.

[Saurus]

25% of Mac user is big number, but I have to argue most of that numbers comes from multimedia and advertising houses switching from long standing Mac base 3D application such as Cinema switching to Maya. This became possible when Alias lowered their price to compete with those packages. I say only about 10% or maybe even lower come from switching from PC/iris base system to Macs. It would be interesting to see how many Maya packages are complete and how many are unlimited. Complete would be a package multimedia and advertising houses would pick because they have no need for fur or dynamic effects. With the new G5, this could change to Macs favor, but I don’t think it would be enough to make a dent in PC Maya licenses. Few years ago, Mac was actually faster than PC, but could never make a dent in the PC realm and I can see this trend continuing. Once AMD gets it act back, I can see another speed war with Intel, putting PC back as “The world fastest machine”. Like I said before, I don’t think IBM can sustain or the stomach to compete with AMD and Intel. Yes, they do have the market, but Mac market is way too small to justify a long fight.

Saurus

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Saurus
Once AMD gets it act back, I can see another speed war with Intel, putting PC back as “The world fastest machine”.


Hmmm. Now we get into the current Apple hype, and frankly G5 isn't the fastest computer around like Apple is claiming it is. Not even close.

It's a HUGE step ahead, and certainly a benefit to Mac users.

AMD and Opteron combined with nForce 3 is a pretty hard deal to beat for performance and memory bandwidth. The numers are insane.



Like I said before, I don’t think IBM can sustain or the stomach to compete with AMD and Intel. Yes, they do have the market, but Mac market is way too small to justify a long fight.


IBM doesn't have to fight with AMD, they are fairly tight partners. IBM is working with AMD on the x86-64 design and process, AMD engineers and IBM engineers share the same office spaces. IBM and AMD are partners in a new fabrication plant.

I don't think they see much competition between Opteron and the processor they fab for Apple. Apples marketshare is far too small to really make a dent, and IBM, like any other company is about making money.

[beaker]

Originally posted by MadMax
As I said in my original post, putting it in perspective. Windows is still 75-80% of Maya sales.

Windows does not make up 75-80%. Probably more like 40%. Linux has to be somewhere around 25% since 75% of the big studios these days are using it and companies are switching over/adopting it every day. Also I am sure Irix still pulls in around 5-10% otherwise they would have allready dropped it.

Regardless, the 20-25% numbers are not really so amazing since Maya price tanked to 1995.00 a year or so ago, that's why you see such a rise in Mac sales. When it was 7995.00 where were the Mac sales? the "PC" market had PLENTY of sales in that price range. Now that they have lowered it to a point where any one can buy it, this rise in Mac sales doesn't come as much of a surprise at all.
You should do some research before you speak. First version of maya for OSX came out 5 months before the price drop. When it shipped a/w said that it was shipping more orders for OSX than any other platform at the time. Which is pretty natrual for a long awaited new product on a platform.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by beaker You should do some research before you speak. First version of maya for OSX came out 5 months before the price drop. When it shipped a/w said that it was shipping more orders for OSX than any other platform at the time. Which is pretty natrual for a long awaited new product on a platform.

You might want to take your own advice, and do some research before posting nonsense.

First off, you are wildly speculating about percentages for Linux, Windows and Irix, with nothing to base it on. Anyone can make up figures, I guess I should have been more specific in my first post realizing how anal retentive zealots can get about things.

Studios are dumping Irix/SGI machines right and left. They are a rare beast these days. A lot of places were GIVING them away to anyone who wanted to come pick them up. If they still even have 5%, which I doubt, it won't be for long.

Hard to say on Linux, if volume sales drive what A|W does, then the numbers beign thrown around are pretty interesting since Linux has unlimited, and A|W hasn't decided to give OSX support yet. It seems there is a bit of a contradiction here.

x86 versions have been out for years. There is a saturation point where new sales are going to drop off dramatically. It's not like this is a mass appeal product where they will sell millions of copies of it. When you consider that x86 systems have had several years to saturate the market, where else would the volume go, to a new product offering in a previously untouched market. DUH. ......

Of course OSX sales are going to appear to be a higher voulme than anything else. By the time it is actually being counted as a sales fiugure, OSX was new, x86 people already had the product for several years, it's already come very close to it's saturation point, and for the most part x86 users are generating more upgrade sales than they are new sales these days.

Why do you think they closed all their US offices and reconsolidated around their HQ in Canada???????

Some of you guys should really take a course in basic business. It's clear many of you need it desperately.

[beaker]

I don't get what your trying to say. This whole thread was about the original post on "New" sales, not currently existing user base numbers. Why do you keep on trying to bring up upgrade sales, current user base and other stuff.

I don't even own a mac, I use Linux. Don't know why you think I'm a "anal retentive zealots".

Why do you think they closed all their US offices and reconsolidated around their HQ in Canada???????
Because just like every other business in the country, the economy was crappy, everyone in the world was laying off thousands of people and customers were not spending money and consolidating saved them money. Even Softimage, Discreet and Newtek all consolidated offices and laid off large numbers of people.

[beaker]

Originally posted by MadMax
Hmmm. Now we get into the current Apple hype, and frankly G5 isn't the fastest computer around like Apple is claiming it is. Not even close.
Why are you trying to turn this thread into another long, boring Mac vs Pc fight.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by beaker
I don't get what your trying to say. This whole thread was about the original post on "New" sales, not currently existing user base numbers.


EXACTLY.

Which is why the 25% figure is relatively meaningless, as are comments that "AW says that OSX is outselling all the other platforms."

It's like a store that has 20 cans of Pepsi to sell, and 300 cans of Coke, on a hot day. Then at the end of the day saying look! Coke sells better!!

It's not an accurate reflection of reality anymore than this thread has been.

Why do you keep on trying to bring up upgrade sales, current user base and other stuff.

Since when does saying something ONCE constitute "keep bringing it up"?

And you have to ask why I think people are being anal retentive?

[MadMax]

Originally posted by beaker
Why are you trying to turn this thread into another long, boring Mac vs Pc fight.


I did nothing of the sort. Quoting out of context is a pretty cheap shot. If you can't stand on the merits of your argument then go find something else to do.

An incorrect remark was made about the PC market regaining the speed crown, which was in error since it never lost it.

If you can't handle reality and prefer fantasy that's your problem, not mine.

[dudeguy]

Originally posted by moovieboy
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one

That's fine, but tossing out potentially tens of thousands of dollars of infastructure in hardware and software isn't exactly the most practical solution either. Who's throwing out tens of thousands of dollars on hardware and software? If this thread is any indication, there are barely any companies using Maya for Mac. If anything it would cost them tens of thousands of dollars on hardware and software to make the "switch", more than that even considering the ridiculous prices of everything Mac based.


That was my point :D I guess that's my fault trying to make sense behind your incoherant reasoning of listing 2nd rate 3D packages and the fact that they are available on OSX.

You don't honestly believe that do you? Sure why not? Even from MadMax's situation, Maya for Mac seems like it would waste more time for Maya PC users than anything else.

Um, okay, except I don't have time to play as I'm usually too busy working on projects for various Sundance Filmmakers, the Sundance Channel, the Discovery Channels, and some guy who produced something called "The Terminator?" And they don't care what platform I used, which is ultimately THE point, isn't it?:p

-Tom I can see why you wouldn't be a gamer, you are after all a Mac follower. Is Frogger available for Mac yet?

[dudeguy]

Originally posted by Marc Andreoli
should technology accomodate the user or should the user accomodate the technology ? :shrug:

You will be assimilated...:surprised

Not a bad line. From my experience, for the serious professional if you want to stay ahead of the game, you need accomodate the technology that is available immediately.

(and you know there is a horde of mac users out there waiting idly in front of their computers staring at a blank screen :rolleyes: ) Probably. Alright, maybe you 3D Mac users can launch Maya Complete, maybe you can rotate, but how do you pan and zoom with that nonsensical 1 button mouse?

[dudeguy]

Originally posted by MadMax
Hmmm. Now we get into the current Apple hype, and frankly G5 isn't the fastest computer around like Apple is claiming it is. Not even close.

It's a HUGE step ahead, and certainly a benefit to Mac users.

AMD and Opteron combined with nForce 3 is a pretty hard deal to beat for performance and memory bandwidth. The numers are insane.

you are wildly speculating about percentages for Linux, Windows and Irix, with nothing to base it on. Anyone can make up figures, I guess I should have been more specific in my first post realizing how anal retentive zealots can get about things.

Studios are dumping Irix/SGI machines right and left. They are a rare beast these days. A lot of places were GIVING them away to anyone who wanted to come pick them up. If they still even have 5%, which I doubt, it won't be for long.

Hard to say on Linux, if volume sales drive what A|W does, then the numbers beign thrown around are pretty interesting since Linux has unlimited, and A|W hasn't decided to give OSX support yet. It seems there is a bit of a contradiction here.

Regardless, the 20-25% numbers are not really so amazing since Maya price tanked to 1995.00 a year or so ago, that's why you see such a rise in Mac sales. When it was 7995.00 where were the Mac sales? the "PC" market had PLENTY of sales in that price range. Now that they have lowered it to a point where any one can buy it, this rise in Mac sales doesn't come as much of a surprise at all. All excellent and devastating points.

[moovieboy]

Sigh, here I was just bringing a lil bit of news with this thread, and look at what it's become... my apologies to those of you shaking their heads as this has spiraled a bit out of control here.

And, sorry, but I need to add a couple clarifications here:

Originally posted by MadMax
First off, my original post had absolutely nothing to do with Mac bashing.

While not a "true" bash, you did walk into a thread that was mentioning something small but positive and said "(my) platform is still way bigger." Why do I interpret it that way? Because it's obvious to anyone that if Mac claims 25% of current sales, then other platforms still have 75%. Who couldn't infer that?

You then went on to rewrite the article to "prove" your point.

Why? If it wasn't meant as a bash, or at least raining on a little parade, then exactly what was your motivation for the original post? Based upon your more recent posts, it's quite obvious you have many issues with both Macs and Mac users.

Originally posted by MadMax
And you better go back and re read the posts. You clearly missed one.

Quoting Movieboy:

Maya sales of Windows licenses have fallen from 100% of the total market to 75%-80% in just a few years.

Do you not see that I said "total market?" I tried very carefully not to say that Windows has lost anything but total percentages of sales. Maybe I wasn't clear enough because, based on another post, you've misinterpreted my meaning.

(And, yes, the moment I typed that , I was aware it was leaving out the Linux part of the equation... but since I've no idea of the Linux percentage, I chose to stick with MadMax's original statements)

Originally posted by MadMax
The troubles with Mac users know no bounds. I could write a book on the subject.

I could write similar books on the DivX codec, for example, and the headaches it had given many professional editors, encoders and web page people... I'm sure we all could about one platform/software/company or another.

But your consistent (for lack of a better word) "badmouthing" to myself and others in this thread with words like "zealots," "looney" and like... Well, it calls into question how professional you really are...

-Tom

P.S. Dudeguy, your multiple jabs about things from Unlimited to Doom to Frogger don't seem all that good natured either... So, I ask you as well... how "professional" are you behaving?

[MadMax]

Originally posted by moovieboy
Sigh, here I was just bringing a lil bit of news with this thread, and look at what it's become... my apologies to those of you shaking their heads as this has spiraled a bit out of control here.

While not a "true" bash, you did walk into a thread that was mentioning something small but positive and said "(my) platform is still way bigger." Why do I interpret it that way? Because it's obvious to anyone that if Mac claims 25% of current sales, then other platforms still have 75%. Who couldn't infer that?


Wrong.

I only added the "to put it in perspective" part because the original premise, while good for the Mac user base was slightly misleading.


You then went on to rewrite the article to "prove" your point.

Why? If it wasn't meant as a bash, or at least raining on a little parade, then exactly what was your motivation for the original post? Based upon your more recent posts, it's quite obvious you have many issues with both Macs and Mac users.


Your responses are exactly why I have a problem with SOME Mac users. Learn the difference, it'll save you from looking like a rabid fanboy in the future.

I prefer a bit of over all realism than zealous fanaticism. IF Mac was the better platform I would own one, plain and simple. That is no bias, it's just the way things are.


I could write similar books on the DivX codec, for example, and the headaches it had given many professional editors, encoders and web page people... I'm sure we all could about one platform/software/company or another.


And again I ask why you don't understand why I have a problem with SOME users based on the foolish remarks you respond with. DiVX codecs? get serious.

The bottom line is the x86 platform is the main production platform for production use. Not Macs. And as I pointed out, those of us who have real jobs in real production, are often presented with a myriad of hassles trying to accomodate Macs. That's not a bash it's just reality.


But your consistent (for lack of a better word) "badmouthing" to myself and others in this thread with words like "zealots," "looney" and like... Well, it calls into question how professional you really are...


Typical response, about what I expected really. When you fail to offer anythign of substance, go on the offensive with insults and claims of lack of professionalism.

I'd say it's your professionalism that is in question, not mine. There are normal users who understand tools and how to use them, or how to use the right tool for the job, then there are the zealots who have to make it a religion blindly spouting the party line.

So far your responses have not shown much indication that you are one of the former, every post a knee jerk reaction and vain attempt to put words in my mouth that were never said or implied.

Or perhaps you forgot that stupid comment you made about none of what we do is worth anything because we are a small percentage?

If you had made the effort to respond rationally, I would have formed a different opinion. As it is, you've made it clear I made the right presumption.

And that is not a bash on all Apple users, since you clearly do not understand the difference.

[Marc Andreoli]

Originally posted by MadMax
I prefer a bit of over all realism than zealous fanaticism.

well, I was going to stay out of it...but some people keep on pushing. If you want realism, then you might as well use real numbers and not just pull percentages out of your hat. If I understand your numbers (sorry if I was confused about the '3D type using Mac' vs '3D mac user') Mac3D accords to around 0.2% of total market in one of your posts (10%of 2%), and less than 0.02% in another(2% of 1%, and only ?% 3D)...yes, that is a difference of over 1'000%.

I could have said 10times, but you seem to like dramatic numbers...
ok, I am out of here

;)

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Marc Andreoli
If you want realism, then you might as well use real numbers and not just pull percentages out of your hat. If I understand your numbersMac3D accords to around 0.2% of total market in one of your posts (10%of 2%), and less than 0.02% in another(2% of 1%, and only ?% 3D)...yes, that is a difference of over 1'000%.


You can't even keep straight who said what or about what, then you post that nonsense paragraph above.

and you expect to be taken seriously?

sheesh.

[moovieboy]

Originally posted by MadMax
Actually your response had all kinds of flaws in it, most of which would take far more energy than I care to waste my time on…

Try to understand something about business before you make irrational assesments about marketshare that are inaccurate…

Please spare me the intellectually devoid remarks…

God I should know better than to respond to the fanatic fringe...

Note to self: Quit responding to religious zealots. You'll never get anything beyond looney replies…

My percentages are just fine, and it was really easy to follow although you seem easily confused…

You might want to take your own advice, and do some research before posting nonsense…

Anyone can make up figures, I guess I should have been more specific in my first post realizing how anal retentive zealots can get about things…

DUH…

Some of you guys should really take a course in basic business. It's clear many of you need it desperately…

If you can't stand on the merits of your argument then go find something else to do…

If you can't handle reality and prefer fantasy that's your problem, not mine…

Learn the difference, it'll save you from looking like a rabid fanboy in the future…

I prefer a bit of over all realism than zealous fanaticism…

…based on the foolish remarks you respond with… get serious…

And as I pointed out, those of us who have real (emphasis added) jobs in real production…

Typical response, about what I expected really. When you fail to offer anythign of substance, go on the offensive with insults and claims of lack of professionalism…

I'd say it's your professionalism that is in question, not mine. There are normal (emphasis added) users who understand tools and how to use them, or how to use the right tool for the job, then there are the zealots who have to make it a religion blindly spouting the party line…

So far your responses have not shown much indication that you are one of the former, every post a knee jerk reaction and vain attempt to put words in my mouth that were never said or implied…

Or perhaps you forgot that stupid comment you made…

If you had made the effort to respond rationally, I would have formed a different opinion. As it is, you've made it clear I made the right presumption…

…since you clearly do not understand the difference…

You can't even keep straight who said what or about what, then you post that nonsense paragraph above and you expect to be taken seriously? sheesh…

It's lonely at the top. But it's comforting to look down upon everyone at the bottom…


Originally posted by MadMax
Just to put it into some perspective.



-Tom:curious:

[Marc Andreoli]

ok, a last one before my week-end...
MadMax:

I guess you are referring to this ?


And you better go back and re read the posts. You clearly missed one.

Quoting Movieboy:

Maya sales of Windows licenses have fallen from 100% of the total market to 75%-80% in just a few years.


well, I am not going to respond to everything you throw back unless you really insist, so here we go. Movieboy posted his comment about windows licenses AFTER your post. All I said was nobody mentioned Windows until your post. Ok ?

As for the last paragraph, indeed, your numbers don't make any sense...

one post:

And since 3D types make up less than 1% of the populace, you realize that Mac users make up less than 2% of that 1% and 3D Mac users even less right?

next post:

Mac accounts for maybe 2% of the computer marketshare period.

Of that very tiny number, actual 3D Mac users are a small fraction of that 2% of the marketshare. Maybe 10% if you're lucky? more?

now call me anally retentive but what is going on with the market share here ? Oh, and you should losen up a bit, too, you are way too serious.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Marc Andreoli
well, I am not going to respond to everything you throw back unless you really insist, so here we go. Movieboy posted his comment about windows licenses AFTER your post. All I said was nobody mentioned Windows until your post. Ok ?

Wrong answer. You said and I quote:

nobody said Maya for Win sales lost anything to OSX.

So you either have a problem with paying attention, or a problem with owning up to the truth.

As for the last paragraph, indeed, your numbers don't make any sense...


And since 3D types make up less than 1% of the populace, you realize that Mac users make up less than 2% of that 1% and 3D Mac users even less right?

In this one I am quoting the movieboy, who is at this point pulling numbers out of his hat as if they were fact. Try reading the posts instead of making knee jerk responses.

My comment about mac users being less than 2% of that 1% fictional number of movieboys is based on the FACT as often reported by analysts, Macs 2% or less total marketshare since Mac 3D users are clearly going to be far less that the mythical 1% movieboy fabricated.

next post:

Mac accounts for maybe 2% of the computer marketshare period.

Of that very tiny number, actual 3D Mac users are a small fraction of that 2% of the marketshare. Maybe 10% if you're lucky? more?

Well lets see, again, I mention 2% marketshare which industry analysts who actually do numbers state AS offical numbers.

And then you take exception at me giving what is probably more credit than it deserves, a remark about 10% in the form of a question.

So again I ask, you expect to be taken seriously with that kind of useless retort?

It's clear your only interest is argumentative.


now call me anally retentive but what is going on with the market share here ?[/B]

I was clear and accurate. I'm rather amazed you are having difficulty with this.

[moovieboy]

Originally posted by MadMax to Marc Andreoli

So you either have a problem with paying attention, or a problem with owning up to the truth.

Does it help that, while incorrect in recalling his exact words, he's still correct saying "nobody said Maya for Win sales lost anything to OSX." Because, as I already I pointed out, I didn't said that.

Originally posted by MadMax
In this one I am quoting the movieboy, who is at this point pulling numbers out of his hat as if they were fact....
of that 1% fictional number of movieboys ....
mythical 1% movieboy fabricated...

Fictional and mythical to say that less than 1% of the World population are hard core CG/3D people? Or, sorry, to quote my EXACT words:

Originally posted by moovieboy
Us computer geeks (and especially 3D/CG ones) surely make up less than 1% of the world's population.

What's up with dismissing that as fictional? Roughly 4-5% of the world's population is on the internet:

Africa 2.1 Million
Asia/Pacific 40 Million
Europe 70 Million
Middle East 1.9 Million
Canada & USA 120 Million
South America 8 Million
World Total 242 Million
Various sources and methodologies by commerce.net

and 242 million of 6,375,756,746 (U.S. Census Bureau) rounds up to 4%...

So, since only 4% of the world is online, how absurd is it to reason that less than 1% of the world are hard core or 3D geeks? For it to even be at 1%, ONE out of every FOUR internet users would have to be a hard core or 3D geek... Hardly mythical or "pulled from a hat."

So, you think you could knock it off with that arrogant, condescending and insulting attitude of yours in this thread?

-Tom

P.S. If you're going to keep quoting me, learn how to spell the name... It's moovieboy :D

[MadMax]

Originally posted by moovieboy
So, you think you could knock it off with that arrogant, condescending and insulting attitude of yours in this thread?


Apparently you need to go back and read the snotty, arrogant and argumentative comments you made that got the responses you felt the need to quote in detail.

I guess that old rabid fervor gets the best of you sometimes eh?

[Marc Andreoli]

Originally posted by MadMax

So you either have a problem with paying attention, or a problem with owning up to the truth.


Jeeeez...gimme a break.
moovieboy says: "Using that angle, Maya sales of Windows licenses have fallen from 100% of the total market to 75%-80% in just a few years"

madmax says: "This doesn't mean that PC sales slipped, only that A|W's overall marketshare has grown due to OSX sales and the fact that there is virtually no decent 3D software available for the Mac."

marc says: "Actually, you were the first one to mention Windows sales...and nobody said Maya for Win sales lost anything to OSX."

well, you don't have to believe me, but there is a difference between "maya sales of windows licences are falling from 100% of the total market" and "maya for win sales are losing to OSX", the first one refers to a whole (%), the second one implies absolute no.'s or value.

[Per-Anders]

Guys calm down please. Yet another mac v pc fight *sigh*, what a shame. Both platforms are good, in fact they're both good for 3d (gasp, shock horror). Bearing in mind that it seems most people on cgtalk do not have 3ghz p4's or g5's and yet they still seem capable of producing perfectly good work...

One thing did catch my eye though as complete nonsense:

Madmax :
My comment about mac users being less than 2% of that 1% fictional number of movieboys is based on the FACT as often reported by analysts, Macs 2% or less total marketshare since Mac 3D users are clearly going to be far less that the mythical 1% movieboy fabricated.

Is this really a logical assumption? If macs accounted for only 2% of total marketshare of all personal computers why would it then logically run that in the field of 3d cg it would be the same or similar percentage?

[MadMax]

Originally posted by mdme_sadie
Is this really a logical assumption? If macs accounted for only 2% of total marketshare of all personal computers why would it then logically run that in the field of 3d cg it would be the same or similar percentage?


It's completely logical.

Movieboy pulls this 1% out of a hat, not really based on any factual data, but okay, we'll run with it.

1%

Of that 1%, regardless of whatever fictional number one wishes to fabricate as a representative number of actual users, how many of those are PC users vs. Mac users?

3D users are a very minimal fraction of "PC" sales. Of the millions of "PC" computers sold by chain stores, outlets and online vendors annually, the number of those going to 3D types is exceedingly small. It doesn't require a government sponsored census to realize this is a fact.

It also stands to reason then that Apple which sells about 98% less systems than "PC" makers, their number of 3D users would be proportionally less. While not completely scientific due to lack of actual polls on the subject, it is backed up reasonably by the lack of Mac presense in the field.

None of the major studios rely on Macs. Pixar just bought 1024 blade servers, all Xeon. ILM? DD? Rythym & Hues? Rezn8?
EdenFX?

All "PC"s.

I have nothing against Apple, never did. My only issue was with misleading spin which seems to be more important than fact here.

Although if you take movieboy and his sidekick at face value, I'm the biggest Mac basher on the planet.

Refer to one of my earlier remarks about knowing better than to respond to religious zealots. That wasn't a blanket generalization against all Mac users, only some. And like trained monkeys, they stepped up to the plate with snotty and arrogant responses.

Not that I was particularly surprised by it.

[moovieboy]

@mdme_sadie:

Yeah, you're right. It's gone on far longer (and nuttier) than I anticipated. Sigh...

Turning to MadMax:

"You make me sad. So be it. Come, Patsy!"

Insert sound of banging coconuts fading into the distance here :D

-Tom

[Lockstar]

to Mad Max, with all my love.

Your tone is extremely condescending, maybe you should close your mouth and be more receptive for a while. Just some friendly advice, no offence (Please don't contest this and spout some rhetoric back at me, i'm running away as soon as I've posted this).

To everyone, with all my love,

I have browsed these forums for some time and come across many mac debates, all of which sadly end up in a spin of vitriol.

In my humble opinion, I think it is time that we stopped both the bigotry and the zealotry. All platforms have something to offer, both negative and positive points. BUT THEY ARE JUST TOOLS. A simple extension of our bodies and minds.

Just because something is deemed industry standard or used by an overwhelming percentage of users, or heralded as the fastest by some, DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY MAKE IT THE BEST!. And even if something scientifically proven to be the best, IT SHOULD NOT AUTOMATICALLY MAKE IT THE DEFAULT. It all comes down to individual choice, something that people have fought and died for since day one. Give some credit to choice and diversity, it's what makes both the industry, and on a larger scale the world a far more appealing place. I don't want predictability and I DON'T WANT TO BE DICTATED TO.

Respect PEOPLE's personal choice and show some understanding. We are all creatives and thus have a reasonable degree of intelligence and a liberal mind.
These petty differences, unfortunately tell us something different. Do you think Pablo Picasso tweaked George Braque's nipples because he used a different pencil?
the answer is no, his work is a clear indication of how he channeled his efforts. (Sorry for the rubbish analogy)

Let's not keep showing ourselves up time and time again. Put the effort into something more productive.

Celebrate our amazing work, the industry which allows us to be creative (and get paid).
and our choice of tools which allow us to be productive.

Count to ten, think of a few of your favorite things, then kiss and make up.

Lockstar XXX

[Per-Anders]

ok, i'll explain why it makes no sense that 2% all computers = 2% cg computers.

macs have traditionally been graphics computers, they're in studios. sure studios like ilm do use macs, and irix and all the rest. i know this because i know people that work at ilm and use macs there. but those studios while big in name, aren't really the majority of users.

macs are expensive, compared to standard consumer pc's. would they be bought by the standard user? sure some are just as some workstation class pc's are bought by standard users, but most will just buy a cheap pc to get on the internet.

the one thing that should have been made clear by this thread is that statistics are disingenuous. as i stated earlier cinema 4d which is the third highest selling pro level 3d app is about 50% established mac user base. of course there is a huge disparity between3d max and the nearest competitor in terms of numbers of licenses, but then 3d-max sales could also be argued to be meaningless as the majority of max users use cracked copies, and most of those users could not be termed anything other than dabblers... you see the argument goes back and forth. but i think it is safe to say that mac's have a higher proportion in units in all creative areas than in general fields, so therefore it's more likely that macs have a higher proportion than 1% or 2% in this area, however as with all stats... 93% are made up...

[dudeguy]

Well after reading this never ending thread, something occurred to me about Macs, spelled backwards it's SCAM, think about that for a moment.

[Lockstar]

dudeguy.

backwards YUGE DUD.

Reflective of the educative posts that you offer.

Please shut the F**k up

[dudeguy]

Originally posted by Lockstar
dudeguy.

backwards YUGE DUD.

Reflective of the educative posts that you offer. YUGE DUD eh? Maybe if that actually spelled out or meant something, your response would have been somewhat funny. Your pitiful attempt at putting a play on words was pathetic.

Please shut the F**k up Did you come up with that one all by yourself too? Spare yourself the humiliation before I flame and char your ass so far beyond recognition into the fiery depths of hell, that not even the hand of god would dare reckon what I bestow upon you. With such cave man comments like that, it's obvious that if wits were measured in chocolate you wouldn't have enough to fill a single M&M.

[Lockstar]

Phonetically speaking.

Go away and listen to yourself Dude guy. spare us from having to. Please I implore you, stop embarressing yourself.

I was attempting to bring some sanity and get back to the information in hand.

Please read couple of posts up.

Moderater do us all a favour, either allow a sensible debate to continue, or close it.

Why do you punish us?

[MacRonin]

I can see where the anger comes from...

PC users see the Mac OS X platform growing stronger, and they are apprehensive...

After all, we are all afraid of change...

Lets look at what we have coming...

A killer PowerMac G5 workstation

RenderMan coming to OS X

Maya Unlimited not far behind

Quadro & FireGL cards coming soon

64bit Panther/OS X v10.3

There are plenty of shops using Macs, usually for Photoshop, editing & comping...

Most of these places will upgrade at some point, and their upgrades will be G5s...

Once these shops get G5s, see how fast the overall system performance is, many will take the next step and load up some 3d package to test out...

The tides will turn, just as NT ripped the torch from the withered hand of Irix, Macs will rule the DCC market...

Now, before the flaming starts, note that nowhere in this post do I do ANY PC bashing, or character slurring...

Like MANY have said when these PC/Mac flamewars start up...

USE WHAT WORKS FOR YOU!

Cheers!

;^p

[Saurus]

USE WHAT WORKS FOR YOU!

!!!PC!!!!:buttrock: