PDA

View Full Version : Shake 2.5 last version on Windows.


Jean Eric
05-03-2002, 10:58 AM
According to an official email, Shake 2.5 will be the last version for Windows. What do you make of this announcement?

Read Announcement Here (http://www.fxguide.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=28)

visualboo
05-03-2002, 11:32 AM
See!! this just proves how sucky apple is :)

This is a big ahh ahhh ahhh SUCK!!! (office space quote... sorry) :)

kithng
05-03-2002, 11:57 AM
APPLE SUCK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hullbr3ach
05-03-2002, 12:23 PM
Ah, good to read they will leave Linux support. Then I don't care if they drop Windows or not.
Linux WILL be my primary OS on my graphics workstation sooner or later and I don't have the money and space to buy a Mac just for Shake.

raffael3d
05-03-2002, 12:33 PM
I totally agree. The good thing is there are many open source projects which are working on something that let's you install EVERY software on Linux, although they were programmed for windows. When this comes out, everybody will switch to Linux.

Jean Eric
05-03-2002, 12:40 PM
Personally, I think Linux will never be a complete Graphics solution until you have Photoshop. Period. Until that happens, you'll always need a Windows box nearby to run some apps...

In the old computer days (the 60's to the late 80's) they used today, nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. Now it's "Nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft".

Market forces are still behind Microsoft. In the end, it's always about money. If it was only about technology, gosh, the Amiga would rule the computer world today!!! :rolleyes:

alexx
05-03-2002, 01:07 PM
to discontinue the support of a platform for political reasons really sucks.
i want to be the one to choose which platform suits me best - i dont want apple to decide for me.

we only have NT computers here in my company and i guess before we buy apple computers just for the compositing we might switch to another package that runs on NT...

really sad :(

DIMO
05-03-2002, 01:13 PM
I still think this is a fake email. I can't believe they want to loose the big pc market. The email sounds as if they will also stop developing for linux/unix after 2003. It's a shame to see how shake becomes a playing ball of the big companies. IMO this will sooner or later be the end for shake. Nobody will buy a mac just because of shake.

And after all. Does Tremor not run on a PC?

Regards,

Dieter Morgenroth

fxgogo
05-03-2002, 01:16 PM
I can understand why they did that, but I think it is a really unwise move. The win/PC platform has a huge market. Why alienate your product deliberately? And Like Dimo said, lets get an official comment first.

And Jean Eric, I still dream of that day that Amiga will rule the world.

raffael3d
05-03-2002, 01:37 PM
it's interesting that I read half a year ago that the whole film industry is switching to Linux.
yeah I also think a bad move by apple. Seems like they wan to harm an mammoth with a needle. pretty useless, but bad for the customer.
So with the aquisiton of Nothing real they start to destroy its quality and reputation.

joconnell
05-03-2002, 01:41 PM
DIMO >> Tremor was discontinued the day that apple bought nothing real. I'd be very annoyed if I spent $90,000 on a version 1 system only to have it cut from that point onwards - at least it was stable and was open enough that you could make the tools you needed for it...

I reckon apple are going to team it up with the cinewave editing system that they have to provide an overall media system - Unfortunately apples still get their asses kicked inevery area of 3d and post by dual amd systems at lower costs - If I was thinking from a sales point of view I reckon they're idiots. The Windows market for shake is bigger than any other...

Hullbr3ach
05-03-2002, 02:11 PM
Jean-Eric, you're probably right, it all comes down to Photoshop in the end. But as long as film studios continue to ask for it on Linux (I think it was Dreamworks, in an article that I read recently) I won't give up hope.
GIMP is no real alternative, as is Wine. They both cannot meet production standards I would say. The idea of Wine in general is great though.
To get back on topic: I also think that Apple is by now as agressive as Microsoft. For me this is a reason to not buy a Mac.

Ged Wright
05-03-2002, 03:32 PM
Another side to this is development resources.
Personally i'd rather a company put their
resources toward pushing the -technology-
and developing and implementing features,
not simply porting software to every platform
under the sun.
A computer without software is useless.
I totally understand what has been said, however
the microsoft/mac thing is geting pretty old,
if they push shake and create a great
package people will buy whatever hardware is required.
The alternative seems to be alias's frankly pathetic development cycle with maya.
Very little new tech but hey you can run it on
a gameboy, because thats what we need.:)
Anyways lets hope shake gets even better.:beer:
ohh i just love the beery smiley faces.
Ged

DIMO
05-03-2002, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by Ged Wright
...if they push shake and create a great
package people will buy whatever hardware is required.


I doubt that. I won't.

angelman
05-03-2002, 03:54 PM
The email is real. I received it today from shake as a customer and beta tester.

IT seems fairly crazy to lose half your market. We certainly will not be moving to apple just because of this. However we use shake extensively for doing quick comps and the like on our 3d machines which are all PC based. however our default platform is linux and all we need is for photoshop to be ported over to linux...which will never happen as long as gimp exists. Sadly gimp is no answer since it is far slower than photoshop and has terrible support for alpha channels, unless anyone knows differently.

I can see what apple are trying to do but its a dangerous path. Especially now that shake is really starting to get a foothold in the market as the succesor to cineon.

In our experience using apples has consistently been troublesome, slower, less stable and more expensive though we havent really looked at os X which may improve matters.

There was a rumour that apple wanted to buy alias wavefront. Can you imagine if they stopped developing maya for windows!!!
When a mac surpasses a pc in every way then they can think about doing things like this but a mac cannot do this at the moment.

wavesmack
05-03-2002, 04:36 PM
Windows future for media is really sketchy. XP is a disgrace and is about as stable as a one-legged table. Irix linux and yes OSX are very stable. Its about time we start trimming down the last of the "non-unix" OSs so we can have a smoother pipeline. This doesnt mean you have to throw out your pc's... linux version of shake is the same cost and redhat is free. So relax, and move on to the future. Let go of your laziness and increase your skillset.

I just bought an octane for shake and pirahna. But when apple stops making shake for irix, and they will. I will move on.

So i guess what im trying to say is... keep on movin on.

angelman
05-03-2002, 04:41 PM
The fate of the world lies on the shoulders of adobe...


if they port photoshop to linux then we can through windows out the window for ever....

well they will have to port deep paint too but that can only be a matter of time...

adobe are you listening!!!

Its OK, Gimp is not as good as photoshop and people are prepared to buy photoshop on linux...

jman
05-03-2002, 05:42 PM
More power to apple.
It's a good news.
I wish every company will do the same.

Apple Rule!!!
:applause:

RormanKnockwell
05-03-2002, 05:42 PM
Depending on the number of users of Shake for Windows, it might not make sense for them to continue to develop for that platform. The Linux, Irix, and OS X versions most likely share a lot of code, owing to their Unix roots. The Windows version probably stems from a different codebase which would take a lot of effort to maintain.

The major FX studios are making a serious move to Linux. These studios are depending on Shake and Linux as critical components in their production pipeline. I really can't see Apple not continuing to provide support for Linux.

Now, I wonder if they will end up folding some of the technology from Shake into Final Cut Pro?

As far as GIMP is concerned, a 16 bpp version of GIMP is available. 16 bpp (48 bit color depth) is necessary in order for GIMP to be viable in film production. This code was done by the folks at Rhythm and Hues, who use GIMP regularly on production. When they presented the code to the main GIMP team, they decided not to fold it into the GIMP. Instead the GIMP team decided to focus on a ground-up rewrite of the GIMP engine, a process which will take years!

IMHO, this shows some of the problems with working with the open source community: lack of responsiveness to real-world software needs and unnecessary duplication of effort.

anemotion
05-03-2002, 06:38 PM
I've been a mac user for over 15 years and this makes absolutely no sense to me. As an Apple stockholder, I'm pissed they're thinking of ignoring 95% of the computer market as a tactic to drive their own sales, which will completely backfire. What are they going to do next, buy Adobe and Microsoft too? That's about the only way this tactic might have any effect.

Rather than this, why don't they break some kneecaps over at motorola and get the power pc processor going AT LEAST as fast as a pentium, or better yet, support AMD and Intel processors and get out of the 'our hardware platform is comprehensively better theoretical model' dogma bulls**t. Reality people, it never goes away no matter how much kool aid you drink. Put up or shut up.

slimjim
05-03-2002, 06:40 PM
there were talks that Apple might go the route of just making boxes for high graphics use. similiar to Quantel/Henry!
is this email for real? who knows. and there are allready people griping that they will do the same to other apps.
cmon lets not forget what these people are in for!
money! but as far as Shake leaving windows hmmm thats absurd!!

juanxer
05-03-2002, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by anemotion
As an Apple stockholder, I'm pissed they're thinking of ignoring 95% of the computer market as a tactic to drive their own sales, which will completely backfire.

I'd like to know first what the actual percentage of Windows in Shake's installed base is. Perhaps it really doesn't justify the effort.

Also, Apple probably will revise Shake's user interface plus some underlying tech sooner or later (Quicktime integration, etc.), so perhaps Shake 2.5 is going to be the last "traditional" iteration of the app before it is transformed into something else.

Apple is not sistematically adverse to multiplatform development (Filemaker, Quicktime, etc.), and I doubt it will abandon non-Linux Unix such as Irix and SGI's. Also, there seem to be signs of movement in the company trying to address the needs of the industry, there being talk of inminent release of rackmounted PowerMacs for sci-tech distributed computing tasks, etc.

We'll see.

raffael3d
05-03-2002, 07:06 PM
All the time we blame Microsoft for it's aggressive policy. But did anyone notice that Apple has the far bigger monopole than Microsoft?
You can only buy a macintosh by apple. there is no other supplier. Now they also become as agressive as Microsoft.

LucentDreams
05-03-2002, 07:35 PM
Well the way I look at it is why not keep supporting irix and linux, I mean they are all unix based so I'm not sure but I don't think there are huge variations in the coding, but then you code it for windows where you have to change a lot of it, most the programmers for osX are totally capable of coding for any unix based software. As for XP not being stable,I find it to actually be quite stable, but there are som manythings that I don't need running that they set up, Iam getting sick of windows. I have heard from some new media students, someone is making a linux OSX hack, so we of the PC world will have the luxury of OSX's unixbased os rather then just redhat an caldera and the likes. Personally though I will jump to linux ones a few more apps are on there, mainly the main ones like Photoshop, (which should be able to happen fairly easy now that it supports PS7) and all the macromedia, and my 3D package, and painter. not quite there yet for softwares other wise it is a farset of OS's

GaryDXD
05-03-2002, 07:48 PM
Apple has done this before. Remember a fine Windows application called Final Cut Pro?

greekdish
05-03-2002, 08:03 PM
First off, its amazing how angry people get when, heaven forbid, a Window's app will get discontinued, and be available for Mac only. My, how the shoe is on the other foot now. Now you all know how us Mac people felt the past 10 years with Maya, Softimage, 3DSMax, etc.

Second of all....I highly doubt this email is true....I highly believe it to be a prank from a disgruntled employee at Shake. Apple, like the email states, never releases information regarding unreleased products...this has held true for the longest time with Apple, and I dont see it changing now. As for FInal Cut Pro....to the best of my knowledge, it was NEVER a Windows app....it was a start up company that never officially released any public product, it was in beta testing. Final Cut Pro is what it is today because of Apple, not anyone else. Just compare the huge difference betwen Final Cut Pro 1, and FCP 3.

Raffael....how can Apple be a monopoly??? Thats absurd. You can only buy a Macintosh from Apple??? Well duh!!! You can only buy a Dell from Dell!!! You can only buy a Compaq made by Compaq. What is your point??

Again, I doubt this email is true....but thats just my opinion. Apple has never forced anyone to switch from Windows to Mac...they always give user's the choice. Filemaker and Quicktime Pro are PC also, why havent they given up support of PC's there?? They're gonna start now?? Only time will tell...and if it does manage to happen....well, get over it....it's their decision to cease development if they so choose, not yours.

angelman
05-03-2002, 08:08 PM
Time will tell whether the email is true... however if you use shake on a pc then you had better get prepared to move to linux and to watch as apple optimise shake for mac and no other platform...

Could be great for linux though as long as apple dont abandon that as well... that would be plain daft.

Think of the implications if/when apple buy alias wavefront... the mind boggles. I think apple is thinking of taking over the entire design/media industry right now. Becoming the microsoft of the creative industries maybe. NOt so bad maybe but it is even more restrictive than a M$/Intel/AMD situation. YOu can only buy apple from apple... If they buy up all the software that we use and only develop for their own machines... then they have a complete monopoly from hardware right through to software.

Of course it remains to be seen how manyh if any nothing real employees will remain...

Jean Eric
05-03-2002, 08:10 PM
If this is true, I think discreet will turn this into an advantage for them. Especially with the Strata & Mezzo platform they are developping. From my understanding, this is literally a sort of Flame/Inferno running off a PC...

The next year will be interesting.

raffael3d
05-03-2002, 08:17 PM
you can't say: apple = apple, dell = dell, compaq= compaq.
The point is: you can buy a PC from different manufacturers: like you said: dell, compaq and all the others.
But if you buy Macintosh (there is only one macintosh!) it has to be an apple.
If you decide to buy a PC at dell or compaq has to do with which "package" is better, but its still a PC. So I'm talking about the computer tpyes and platforms: a pc has many manufactures, but for macintosh there is only one Apple. Did anyone of you buy a macintosh not made by apple? What my point is: they control acutally everything about this product: hardware, OS, software....

Alex Lindsay
05-03-2002, 08:18 PM
NT will be discontinued...

While it may seem harsh...there were less than 200 paying NT Users of Shake.

I think Apple plans to make this market 50,000+...

Apple doesn't plan to share with other Platforms (I give Linux 12-24 months before Shake is discontinued there too) because they are building a verticle market and then moving it horizontally into wider markets (will this be an opportunity for Discreet if Shake becomes $999?)

Will it work? Who knows...

The next step, 3D, could be more drastic. Most rumors put Apple at the top of the list to buy A|W.

a

raffael3d
05-03-2002, 08:20 PM
why should they buy A I W? Maya is already available for mac os and I don't think that a giant like SGI well sell it.

angelman
05-03-2002, 08:23 PM
yes but sgi is a dying giant... well for the time being.

Imagine if apple could buy the leading professional 3d package? They would corner the market or we would all have to use soft, 3d max not really being an option for high end work.

I think people at the big studios may have some comments about this kind of development...

raffael3d
05-03-2002, 08:26 PM
I may question that Maya is still going to be the leader of the 3d packages in the upcoming 2-3 years. If you have ever looked at XSI then you will the future belongs to this package (at least my opinion) instead of one scripting Language MEL there are many common language (pythern, perl, jscript etc.) sliders technology, very fast; built forking in a network (netview) with drag & drop.
Ok, let's not talk about software, but the conversation is now going to a point where most people say:

APPLE wants to RULE the computer world....
:rolleyes:

angelman
05-03-2002, 08:28 PM
want to real the design world in all its forms...
leave microsoft to workaday office work
apple will go for the rest..

angelman
05-03-2002, 08:29 PM
rule Not real of course! :)

svenip
05-03-2002, 08:37 PM
this gonna make me cry. i guess apple takes over the methods of microsoft. "buy everything which could cause trouble for my os". who the hell wants this on macosx !?!?!?

one of the best comp programms is gonna die and this only for money reasons.

:thumbsdow :thumbsdow :thumbsdow

just saw an ad from apple "dear windows user, we love you !!!"

"DEAR APPLE, WE DON'T LOVE YOU !!!"

GaryDXD
05-03-2002, 08:53 PM
>>First off, its amazing how angry people get when, heaven forbid, a Window's app will get discontinued, and be available for Mac only. My, how the shoe is on the other foot now. Now you all know how us Mac people felt the past 10 years with Maya, Softimage, 3DSMax, etc. <<

None of those apps have ever been discontinued on the Mac, because most of them were never ported to the Mac.

Alex Lindsay
05-03-2002, 09:02 PM
You have to remember...3D is a wee market...2D is a 20-40 times the size (most still use Macs in this world).

If 5% of the 2D market moves into the 3D market...it will change the entire crosssection.

No guarantee Apple will buy anyone. And no guarantee it would work...

It's just what I think Apple is considering...now that the port is nearly complete.

a

GaryDXD
05-03-2002, 09:05 PM
>>this gonna make me cry. i guess apple takes over the methods of microsoft. "buy everything which could cause trouble for my os". who the hell wants this on macosx !?!?!?

one of the best comp programms is gonna die and this only for money reasons. <<

What are you talking about. Have you seen Shake on OSX? It is awesome. At NAB the guys at WETA digital (Lord of the Rings) were all behind it. Nothing is dying, if anything it will get even better. Which would you rather have, a small company with limited resources developing it, or a company that has 1 Billion Dollars CASH in the bank?

raffael3d
05-03-2002, 09:10 PM
wow this is a fast thread. Now the coolest thing would be if somebody posts the news that the story is not true :-):p

angelman
05-03-2002, 09:15 PM
cool but will never happen...


it IS true!

greekdish
05-03-2002, 09:23 PM
>>First off, its amazing how angry people get when, heaven forbid, a Window's app will get discontinued, and be available for Mac only. My, how the shoe is on the other foot now. Now you all know how us Mac people felt the past 10 years with Maya, Softimage, 3DSMax, etc. <<

None of those apps have ever been discontinued on the Mac, because most of them were never ported to the Mac."

That's not true.....3DSMax was available on the Mac....Kinetix discontinued it because they couldnt program a stable app, and Mac users dont buy garbage, so they werent making any money on it. If thye made it stable, then it would still be on the Mac today. As for Softimage....how did Softimage get ported to Windows?? Thats right....people forget that Microsoft bought Softimage and ported it to Win NT, and then once they established a base, they sold it BACK to Avid. By having Softimage on WinNT, Alias was forced to port Maya to WinNT for competitive market reasons....you think Bill Gates knew what he was doing??? Hey, if MS gets away with it (look at the trials, a joke)....why cant Apple??? No one burned MS at the stake, but now everyone is bashin Apple. What a bunch of hypocrites.

"one of the best comp programms is gonna die and this only for money reasons. "

What other reasons are there for software companies to make software??? To make you happy?? Or to turn a profit?? =)

And for those people who dont like Apple, and dont want Apple, DONT BUY IT!!! Its as simple as that. Not like they are putting a shotgun to your head. LOL


Oh, and GaryDXD...that would be 4 Billion in cash!! hehehe =)

Hullbr3ach
05-03-2002, 09:27 PM
At NAB the guys at WETA digital (Lord of the Rings) were all behind it.

As far as I can remember WETA was running Shake on Linux. So all they were probably behind at NAB was a great app and not Shake running on OSX.
And if Apple should drop Linux, they're not gonna get a single (euro)cent from me. Ever.

raffael3d
05-03-2002, 09:29 PM
yeah, we also wont buy a mac, BUT we still want use Shake!

angelman
05-03-2002, 09:32 PM
greekdish. There is one important difference.
When MS bought Softimage they DID not discontinue developing it for sgi which at the time was the only platform for the program.

Marc Andreoli
05-03-2002, 09:35 PM
Apple is not 'better' (morally) than any other company, they use the same basic business principles...and the end of the day, they want to make money.

I used to run Renderman on a mac...when it got discontinued for that platform. I used it for a little bit longer (it still runs, right ?) and had the choice to switch to wintel/unix or switch renderer in the long term...what is the deal ?

I used Lightwave3D on the mac for a while, but when I needed to run 3DSmax I had to buy a PC and WIN (no choice there, wheee, unfair...). No company is there just to please you, they are there to please you TO MAKE MONEY OFF YOU.

Now, be happy Photoshop has been ported to PC and stop whining ! ;)

-marc

LucentDreams
05-03-2002, 09:48 PM
Whats more important to you, the platform you are on, the software your are using or the job you are getting done, and in what order?

Personally I look at what I need to get done, then what software works best for me and the last issue is the OS. Lets face it comparing stability overall is pointless, they are all fairly stable, (2K and as I have found though others disagree XP, linux, Irix, OSX) and they all do crash. I find that nnowadays, if you want to do the most and best business you need both PC's and Mac's, why because evryone you may work with will us one or the other and you ideally should be able to support both, work on both and do what is best for both. 2D is faster opn a mac no ands, ifs, or buts so use a mac for your 3D and pc for your 3D and then whatever for compositing, and output to both. I have learned a lot about cross platform by being a big user OF cinema 4D which stated on the amiga and has had equal support since it ported to mac and pc. Have the users I know are mac users, and half are PC and I have found that I need to provide the best to both worlds.

Its just like languages, when dealing with a french company, you would pefer that in your country the speak your language, and they would prefer that in their country you can communicate in their language. Its called compromise.

GaryDXD
05-03-2002, 09:51 PM
<<That's not true.....3DSMax was available on the Mac....Kinetix >>

3DS Max was NEVER available on Mac. Where did you get that info?

LucentDreams
05-03-2002, 09:55 PM
I think Gary is right, 3D Studio was developed strictly on Dos, and then changed to 3D Studio Max when it moved over to Windows based machines, and it is Strictly Windows based, never touched a mac.

BZ3D
05-03-2002, 10:04 PM
I have heard lots o' rumors abound for an osx port to Win/tel boxes, perhaps this is related? It would help sell osX(and lots of other apps) to intell users if that was their rout to have Shake. I would switch to mac osx in a heart beat on my pc if os10 was available (like it is on my two mac). Ive used them all osx is just a rock solid os ready for work. I doubt Apple would be losing money over this, in the long run what apple chooses to do will probably be the correct way for the company to go. It will not be over some imaginary battle between the os's That seems to be in the mines of the consumer. But It is fun to think of apple getting back at the industry for the lack of support and all the proverbial rolling eyes, when someone with a big sad expression holds out their little hand and says "pleas sir port your very useful app to mac, we are very hungry ..."sniff"" as the big windows vender slams his french doors in his face. lets all hope that the under dog gets his day once and a while, this may be something very cool for the whole industry.

Hold tight mac users, with FireWire built in to every system imovie, Final Cut Pro, iDVD, DVD Studio Pro, Maya, Lightwave, Shake, After Effects p.b. photoshop etc... our future in the DV/CG industry looks very bright, and look my shades are on, ...lets have a drink.:cool:

Trundal
05-03-2002, 10:07 PM
I fail to see the problem here. So what if Apple concentrates Shake's core development on the UNIX platforms? With the continued support of Linux, nobody's hardware gets left behind. The only losers in this scenario are those people who REALLY like using Windows.

Apple is out to own video and 2D/3D graphics. They are behind in a few categories, but they know that. The purchase of Shake is evidence that they are working very hard at meeting the needs of the Industry. Macs may never be as cheap as a PC, but I for one am sick of cheap PCs anyway.

If you really MUST use Windows, then I suppose Apple just has to cut you loose to use one of the many other high-dollar apps that are available. However, quality studios appear to be more interested in the power of the tools than the name on the startup screen.

angelman
05-03-2002, 10:13 PM
I dont think there is any problem with apple per-se. Certainly not with the OS though it may be a bit over the top for true pro use where you want every ounce of speed you can get to get the job done rather then disply huge inflatable icons and windows that animate in unncessary ways.
The problem is with the hardware. PC based hardware is just so much faster in every way, 2d is debatable maybe. YOu only have to look at some of the sped comparisons on highend3d to see that osx based machined lag way way back in the tables...
I dont care on the label or brand or even the OS. I just want to get the work done as quickly as possible. At present pcs are the fastest things around. If apple can make something that REALYL is better and demonstrably faster than a pc then great. However if they get more and more of a monopoly in this area then the motivation to increase speed will be reduced. The motoroloa processor roadmap is way behind intel and amd...

Also what about real speed freaks who jkust want to build it themselves... no chance...

Best thing apple could do is port osX to PC. THey could clean up I think.

Imagineer
05-03-2002, 10:14 PM
As for the fellow who posted that Apple bought Final Cut Pro from Macromedia and then killed the PC version..

Uh, duh! There NEVER WAS a PC version! Apple bought the source code base, and after a few years of hard work by the Apple coders (including the guy who originally headed up the Adobe Premiere project), FCP was born as a Mac-only product...

Good deal!

Now, Shake is purchased by Apple, and they (possibly) state that the Windows version will be gone after v2.5 release...

So folks start yelling 'how can they ignore 95% of the market'?!?

Come on, think people! 95% market share for Windows, in the corporate world maybe, but NOT in the market that uses Shake (or Maya, Final Cut Pro, etc.)...

The hardware is coming, the software is tightening up, and Apple is gonna be the replacement for the 'old school' SGI in regards to the end-user grunt animators/compositors/editors entertainment market...

Which is a good thing in my book...

Flame away!

GaryDXD
05-03-2002, 10:50 PM
<<As for the fellow who posted that Apple bought Final Cut Pro from Macromedia and then killed the PC version..

Uh, duh! There NEVER WAS a PC version! Apple bought the source code base, and after a few years of hard work by the Apple coders (including the guy who originally headed up the Adobe Premiere project), FCP was born as a Mac-only product... <<

You Don't know what the hell you are talking about. Go get your facts straight. I saw it in person, at NAB in 1995 or 1996. It was running on PC. Go get the facts and then come back and talk to me.

LucentDreams
05-03-2002, 10:54 PM
I know nothing of Final Cut pro's history, but I willpoint out that you haven't any facts or proof either gary, Isaw in 95/96 isn't very much to stand on especially being so long ago at a conference, I think the mind could play tricks, but again you could be right, i don't know final cuts history at all.

Imagineer
05-03-2002, 11:17 PM
I have my facts right...

It may have been show as a demo/alpha/work in progress; but it was NEVER a shipping PC app...

I won't stoop to start a flame war, so I will just back out of the room slowly, with the knowledge that I am right...

GaryDXD
05-03-2002, 11:20 PM
I never stated that it had shipped. You said there never was a VERSION. So in a sense we are both right. Didn't mean to start a war, I just didn't need the "Uh Duh" in front of your initial reply.

Imagineer
05-03-2002, 11:30 PM
No problem, my apologies...!

slimjim
05-03-2002, 11:38 PM
greekdish...max was never ever on macos!!
not even any of the older releases (R4, R3, R2, and R1).

romz
05-04-2002, 02:51 AM
Is it possible to run two seperate OS on the same computer? Say if you want to open Photoshop and AE in Windows, then restart your computer in Linux and run Shake? I thought I heard of people doing it before I may be wrong.....



romz

Hullbr3ach
05-04-2002, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by romz
Is it possible to run two seperate OS on the same computer? Say if you want to open Photoshop and AE in Windows, then restart your computer in Linux and run Shake? I thought I heard of people doing it before I may be wrong.....
This is possible, of course. But it is not really what you would want to do.
Going to Windows means loosing the benefits of Linux. You would also have to maintain two operating systems, which means more work.
Using Linux of course means not having some applications.
This should change though. But I guess right now, you could only buy a Mac to get the best of both worlds.

beaker
05-04-2002, 07:36 AM
Actually for image editing apps, the guys over at IFX just ported Amazon paint to Linux. It was one of the best paint apps on irix. Amazon paint is a real sweet 2d/3d paint app and it works in true 16 bit(which photoshop does but very shitty). Only problem could be the price. I am not sure how much it is now, but back 6 years ago when I used it, it ran 10k a copy. Hopefully it is much cheaper now.

www.ifx.com

yhsay
05-04-2002, 10:32 AM
Hi,

1. The News is 100% True that Shake will be discontinued on NT after V2.5 is released.
That Linux/IRIX versions will continue selling
and stopping them will be a decision Apple
will evaluate at end of 2003.

2. Personally I feel time has come for studios
to switch to Linux - its a lot more stabler and
robust platform than Windows

3.Adobe does'nt look like it will budge from
Windows/Mac, or it would have done so (Linux)
atleast a year back.

4. Shake on Mac could prove to be a big advantage
considering if Mac version utilizes Quicktime
as native working format, then missing features
like audio will immediately come in
Also an integration with Final Cut Pro will make it a Film Compositing Box along with Film NLE (Cinema Tools)at an unbeatable price.

5. Shake code I presume on Mac will now get highly optimised to make up for the speed the G4 processors lack in rendering power compared to
AMD/P4.

6. Shake on Mac could become a lot cheaper
(look at final cut pro/ idvd prices....)

7. Apple should atleast work out a discount policy
when they stop the NT version so that people can
buy MAc/Linux/Irix versions feeling good
(Maybe give them one year free upgrades/support..)

8. Plugins for SHAKE are still not on Mac, which is bad news - Sapphire, Mokey, Ultimatte etc...

9. Its high time WINTEL Cartel gets a shove around
Motorola should tie up with AMD and support
their processors in MAC.

Rgds
Yhsay

greekdish
05-04-2002, 11:30 AM
Ok, ok...my apologies.....I meant to say Autocad....not 3DSMax.....I made a blunder.....hey, its Friday, and I had a few drinks in me at the time!!! Actually, I still do.....so sue me!! :beer: :beer: :beer: :) :)

fxgogo
05-04-2002, 03:18 PM
The trouble with these type conversations, is that there is so much 'here say' and rumour talk, often incorrect. Some of the so-called facts and history's of software and platforms makes me laugh.

I advise everyone to do some research and check their facts before posting

1-8-5
05-04-2002, 05:08 PM
You´re completly right -- fxgogo.

In addition -- these kind of conversation and discussion are extremely boring.
In the past the customers opinion was no rule in the tec-development of the mastercompanies (in the summary).

So calm down and make your own decision ...

juanxer
05-04-2002, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by GaryDXD
<<That's not true.....3DSMax was available on the Mac....Kinetix >>

It actually was AutoCad, not 3D Studio.

juanxer
05-04-2002, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by GaryDXD
<<As for the fellow who posted that Apple bought Final Cut Pro from Macromedia and then killed the PC version..

Uh, duh! There NEVER WAS a PC version...<<

You Don't know what the hell you are talking about. Go get your facts straight. I saw it in person, at NAB in 1995 or 1996.

I believe Final Cut was intended to be a multiplatform app, but back then when it was demoed around there was a lot of work to be done to make it work decently, although it showed a lot of promise. Sometime later Macromedia went through real tough times, and they decided to get rid of every non-core product development. Enter Apple, etc.

So there actually was a Windows alpha/beta/whatever version of FC, but no released product. Also, the most important thing Apple did for FCPro, in my view of things, was to turn it into a DV format workhorse. This DV emphasis was needed to support Apple's "turn a limitation into a virtue" attitude to the lack of enough PCI ports and bandwidth for the analog video card industry.

Also, I don't think it was that bad for the windows community: there are more NLE Win apps than Mac ones out there, even a RealTime-able Premiere, too. And they wouldn't have benefited so much as Firewire wasn't that established when FCPro was released.

DIMO
05-06-2002, 09:55 AM
And here are the newest rumours:

Nintendo will buy Alias Wavefront and future maya versions will only run on GameCubes!!!!!!

Cheers,

Dieter

iLL
05-31-2002, 06:28 PM
Well - Just time to change platform then ;)

arvid
06-04-2002, 11:37 AM
I don't care a BIT if windows is good or bad, or if linux is good or bad, or if osx is good or bad.

Apple still stinks for making such a childish gesture as to discontinue Shake *specifically* on windows, just to flip microsoft off, its obviously personal! don't bring me and all the other shake users (regardless of platform) into that silly one-way quarrel!!
microsoft couldn't care less :insane:

Grow up apple!!:mad: tossers.

greekdish
06-04-2002, 04:09 PM
And you know Apple is doing this how??? Where did you get your info??? You really think a big business like Apple does "childish" things such as purposely pissing off MS?? Why would Apple want to piss of MS anyways??? They need MS and its Office suite and web browser. If MS stopped developing for Apple, its would be devastating. Apple isnt stopping only Window's development, but probably Linux as well, so who are they trying to piss off in the Linux world?? Your opinion is unfounded and more childish.....just someone who cant stand Apple, and needs to whine about it here.

iLL
06-04-2002, 08:33 PM
I must go "ROFL" ... sry :)

1. Shake isnt owned and developed by Apple Corporation -> Nothin Real is responsible for Shake and what turns the software will take and have taken.

2. Apple would NEVER want to piss MS off - Why i hear you asking? Well ... in the monopol case against Microsoft they avoided immediate punishment by investing money in Apple computers (thereby taking over more of the market - but ey, they fell for it :))...

3. Apple needs Inet Explore and the Office suite.

4. Nothing Real has prolly' realised by now that piracy of MacOS based software is alot harder than Win32 based - Shake is one of the easiest applications to get hold of illegaly (i've seen it several times at my friends place .... none of them bought the damn thing).

So all in all .... of course it hurts me that Nothing Real decided to take shake off the win32 platform but seen from a buisnessmans point of view i think its not just wise but purely genius.
Now i just have to go buy that G4 i guess :)

iLL
06-04-2002, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by romz
Is it possible to run two seperate OS on the same computer? Say if you want to open Photoshop and AE in Windows, then restart your computer in Linux and run Shake? I thought I heard of people doing it before I may be wrong.....



romz

Romz ...
Yep its possible to run two seperate OS on the same computer.
All it takes is a couple of partitions (Windows running on FAT32 or NTFS, Linux running on an EX2 system and the linux swap partition (note: swapsize should be the same as your mb RAM)). Through LILO-Boot (which is a partition boot manager included in distributions as Linux Redhat, Mandrake, Suse and Debian) you simple choose in a dos-like GUI which partition (and operating system) you want to boot on. If you have no Linux experience so far (which i dont asume you have) try starting out with suse, redhat or mandrake as they are fairly easy to get started with. When you get comfy' with the workflow, terminal commands and the interface (use gnome - doesnt look like a coloring book like KDE does but doesnt require as much RAM as enlightment) you might want to switch to Debian which is, for most of us Linux freaks, the "real Linux distribution". Alternatives is Slackwave and if you get real cocky try LFS (Linux From Scratch - You get to install and totally customize your entire operating system down to the last package through a commandline terminal :)).

And a little comment for Hullbr3ach...
Why get the best of the two worlds with Mac when you can get everything with dual boot? :)

Good Luck Romz,
Need any help with Linux in the future you can email me at djb@web-craft.dk ... im always up for helping a soul switching to Linux :)

Best Regards
Daniel Jonathan Bergholdt
Development Manager
Web-Craft
Craft-Networks
info@craft-networks.com
www.craft-networks.com
Phone: (+45) 87 440 440
Fax: (+45) 87 440 490
Direct: (+45) 51 373 663

arvid
06-05-2002, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by greekdish
And you know Apple is doing this how??? Where did you get your info??? You really think a big business like Apple does "childish" things such as purposely pissing off MS?? Why would Apple want to piss of MS anyways??? They need MS and its Office suite and web browser. If MS stopped developing for Apple, its would be devastating. Apple isnt stopping only Window's development, but probably Linux as well, so who are they trying to piss off in the Linux world?? Your opinion is unfounded and more childish.....just someone who cant stand Apple, and needs to whine about it here.

Give me one (1) single explaination then, apple has always been doing this sort of stuff, Ms saved their asses once, but that doesn't mean apple want to be their friends, if they was, I would have a whole LOT less troube networking at the office, their "think different" philosophy is bringing extra unnecessary work my way. Discontinue on Windows (just because it's windows, it's that simple), do not discontinue on linux (yea its a smart move, they need the support of this growing minority), that's the way they work, and im really fed up with it. Too bad every apple user is so fanatic that they can't see through it. but it couldn't be that way, apple has to rock right? well it was a while since they did, isnt it. (don't make me list everything that make my life miserable just having them around) :surprised

Btw, they're not pissing Ms off, because Ms couldn't care less, it's just a way for apple to show where they're standing. If NothingReal hold 100% power of the shake development we would see another shake version on windows, but apple has made their desicion, what part of this is unclear to ya'all?

(just to make things clear, I am in no way an Ms junkie, just think its a rotten deal)

arvid
06-05-2002, 09:04 AM
Go buy an extremely expensive and rather slow g4 if you want to
:D

And I dont think Shake is more spread than for example AfterFx or premiere ;)

enough of this! :bounce:

:beer:

Alex Lindsay
06-05-2002, 04:35 PM
MS won't care about the 200-500 registered users of Shake (the real reported installed base)...won't even show up on the radar.

Apple is trying to create a software business that actuallly works...Who cares if you pirate the software if you have to buy and a new Mac to run it (you need a new mac because the old ones don't run OSX well...)

They have a long way to proving that it works...but all reports are that Final Cut and iMovie have decimated Premiere sales and are eating into Avid heavily.

At the same time, I think Microsoft is slowly moving away from hard core OS development for greener pastures. They're not hoarding $40 Billion for nothing...it's a stash for a market migration. Many interviews with Bill Gates shows his focus on the home appliance and business infrastucture markets.

Both Apple and Microsoft are focusing on their core markets. Both will probably be successful.

a

greekdish
06-05-2002, 08:03 PM
Please be a little more clear as to what you want me ot explain. Single explanaton of what???

MS did not save Apple's ass....why does everyone think that a mere 150 million dollar investment is saving their ass?? All anti-Mac people always assume this was to save Apple's financial situation which just isnt true.....it was actually part of MS's out of court settlement with Apple over copyright infringement. MS to the rescue of another computer company/competitor?? What a joke. Didnt know it takes so little to "save" a corpration as large as Apple.


Apple has always been doing this sort of stuff??? How about YOU give me ONE example when they have!! Dont even bring Final Cut Pro into this, cuz it was NEVER released for Windows, or anyone else for that matter when they bought the rights for it from Macromedia.

greekdish
06-05-2002, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by opacity
Go buy an extremely expensive and rather slow g4 if you want to


:beer:

Extremely expensive compared to what??? I just configured a Dell workstation online with dual 1.8ghz Xeon's, 512 RAM, 80gb HD, 32MB ATI Radeon VE, DVD-RW drive, no monitor....for $2930.00....

and a dual 1Ghz G4, 512 RAM, 80gb HD, 32MB Radeon 7500, DVD-RW drive, no monitor.....$2870.00

Hmm.....WinXP vs MacOSX....as a user of both.....I can easily say Mac OSX wins hands down. Well, for me....its a no brainer to go with a Mac....the Xeon's might be faster, slightly, depending on what you do.....but the Mac is cheaper, and user experience and productivity blows the doors off the Wintel offering. So I dont see where u get your info for extremely expensive and rather slow. :thumbsdow :shame: :buttrock: :D

LucentDreams
06-06-2002, 06:26 AM
Mac OSX is better for sure, mainly dues to its Unix core, but all be it, it is better, As for Macs being cheaper, why look at Dell, one of the most expensive places to buy a computer. Beside, I can build that whole system fo $1800 by buying pieces seperately, which is the best advantage of the PC market over the Mac market, many producers many choices.

Over all though I use both, and netiehr is better, they each have advantages and disadvantages, The people having all the dumb P{latform wars are the ones who will have more difficulty working in larger studios where they use both. ILM uses both, Piixar is using both, get with the real world, there isn't a superior.

iLL
06-06-2002, 07:51 AM
I didnt say that anyone invested money in apple to save them (save apple :P). I said that microsoft invested money in apple to save their own asses (microsoft's ass :P)... You want me to bend it in neon for you too? :)

//iLL

arvid
06-06-2002, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by greekdish


Extremely expensive compared to what??? I just configured a Dell workstation online with dual 1.8ghz Xeon's, 512 RAM, 80gb HD, 32MB ATI Radeon VE, DVD-RW drive, no monitor....for $2930.00....

and a dual 1Ghz G4, 512 RAM, 80gb HD, 32MB Radeon 7500, DVD-RW drive, no monitor.....$2870.00

Hmm.....WinXP vs MacOSX....as a user of both.....I can easily say Mac OSX wins hands down. Well, for me....its a no brainer to go with a Mac....the Xeon's might be faster, slightly, depending on what you do.....but the Mac is cheaper, and user experience and productivity blows the doors off the Wintel offering. So I dont see where u get your info for extremely expensive and rather slow.

its easy, bang for the bucks.... power/$
on the other hand you'll get very much "fancy looks"/$ with a mac, you decide on your need dude :cool:

i got a dual1900+ w/ 1gb ddr, dvd, burner, 100gb for about $1700, and i won't add a DVD-rw because I dont need one, and how do you solve that with a mac? you don't, you have to pay for it, and the only thing you proved is your ability to surf the web, I can dig up any sort of numbers, but the the facts wont change, AMD kicks motorolas butt.
Chosing OS is not a matter of taste and feel, but only a matter of getting what's suitable for the application(s) you're running, those are the ones that will punch a hole in your budget, the computers are *cheap* compared to the software, I couldn't care less about the OS, I hardly see it anyways except when Im copying files or something dull like that, I use apps, not OS's. It's just a slave there to serve me and XP hasn't given me a single problem, so why complain, I would replace it with linux in a heartbeat if AfterFX and Photoshop was available on it, but that's just because people says that XSI is more stable on Linux. cheers!

:beer:

arvid
06-06-2002, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by iLL
I didnt say that anyone invested money in apple to save them (save apple :P). I said that microsoft invested money in apple to save their own asses (microsoft's ass :P)... You want me to bend it in neon for you too? :)

//iLL

regardless of their own "dark" microsoftish purpose, they made apple *not* disapear, ie saved their asses, Ms only need them so there's a slight competition. Ms is totally selfish, hey good for apple then isnt it.

yes please bend it :hmm: :D

iLL
06-06-2002, 10:55 AM
/me bends it in neon ;)

DIMO
06-06-2002, 12:03 PM
I just read this on VFXPro.com:



According to the Hollywood Reporter, Ray Feeney has sold Silicon Grail, maker of compositing software RAYZ, to an undisclosed buyer. Insiders speculate that the buyer is Apple.

Feeney founded Silicon Grail in 1995 with the aim of providing efficient, cost-effective, software-based compositing solutions optimized for feature film and large format resolutions. He also founded RFX, an integrator of digital effects technology. Already a four-time Academy Award-winner, Feeney won the John A. Bonner Medal of Commendation at the 2002 Sci-Tech Oscars.

Getting frightenend?

iLL
06-07-2002, 04:34 AM
!!!!!!!!! :((

twidup
06-12-2002, 11:58 PM
well, now thats its been officially announced that Apple bought SG, how do you feel?

That means Apple now has Shake and Rayz, which leaves only Discreet and AE for compositing really.

I have a feeling in a month or 2 we will hear that they are dropping Wintel support for rays shortly.

really sux

Milho
06-17-2002, 07:55 PM
WELCOME TO SILICON GRAIL

Apple has acquired technologies from Silicon Grail, including the RAYZ and Chalice product lines."


Quoted from http://www.silicongrail.com/

I'm rather new to this stuff, i actually just wanted to start with compositing. i think i chose a bad time. first i couldn't find a shake demo and now my friend reported that he got less support for a Rayz Demo (Linux), he even had problems to get a demolincense key.
I'm really affraid about the situation and to all apple-lovers above: if that's not a monopoly than bill gates is a saint!!!

greekdish
06-17-2002, 09:29 PM
Well, I guess in your owrld then Bill Gates is a saint. Do you even know what the word monopoly means??? Go look it up in the dictionary. Apple is by NO MEANS a monopoly just because they acquire technology. Sheesh...you're all a bunch of paranoid trolls....the end of the world and this crap. Apple bought the technology so it can use it in products to be released to consumers for a reachable price. You're going to be glad in a year when you can get Shake for $999, instead of what, $10,000 right now??? Monopoly??? Yeah right....6% market share is a monopoly alright. Like I posted above....the difference between MS and Apple is that MS usually has a product that is in direct competition with another company, so they buy out that company and bury the technology, so their product will be the only choice left. Thats like if Apple bought Combustion and AE, and then buried them both, so their Compositing program would be the only one left....is Apple doing that??? Hardly. I think you are the people who actually believes Bill Gates when he talks about his trial and testifies that the "only people who will get hurt by a breakup, are the consumers, because they wont get new and exciting technologies in their hands." ROFL...what a joke that is.

Milho
06-17-2002, 09:41 PM
ok, this was a little overreacting. but i'm still affraid that apple will cut support for other os than OSX in some years.
And even if you don't call it monopol it makes me feel bad that i won't have the chioce i originally had.
$999 instead of $10.000? And who will pay the millions for the huge companies which will have to buy apple systems instead of their pcs and workstations. As an alternative they can fire all their shake artists and look for some discreet guys...

if they still support at least linux than :thumbsup:

if not than :thumbsdow

i want my freedom of choice.

greekdish
06-18-2002, 09:02 AM
Millions to buy Macs instead of PC's?? Again, I think your overreacting.....I cant honestly say how much Apple will charge for their compositing ap, but if it holds true to their other professional level apps...Final Cut pro, and DVD Studio Pro....$999 would be my guess. Say 25 compositers in a studio (how many compositers are there in the largest companies??)....$25,000 for 25 copies of Shake (or whatever) for Mac....as opposed to $250,000 for 25 copies for PC/Linux before....u have $225,000 left over for hardware. 25 brand new Macs with 22" Cinema displays and maxed out Ram and best video card would be about $6500 each, or about $163,000....for a grand total of $188,000 for brand new Mac stations and iShake or whatever, as compared to before Apple.....$250,000 for Shake alone, then the cost of 25 PC's.....lets be honest at around $2,000 for each not including a 22" flat screen display.....another $50,000.....$300,000 total. Thats a savings of $112,000 to use for other software such as Photoshop and Final Cut Pro, or Maya, with change to spare. Granted, this is all a hypothetical situation depending if Apple does release it for $1000....but for studios that normally run Macs for compositing, whether it be Avid or After Effects...having Shake on the Mac is a great situation for Apple, as well as the industry. I just find it funny how some people find great opportunities arriving every week as a sign of the world coming to an end. People were worried as hell that Maya's price came down so much...but in the end, all 3d software app's prices came down, which was great for a 3d hobbyist, so they too can get into professional 3D easier. Now a change with Shake and RAYZ, and I see another great opportunity for many more people. All the activities in the last year or so are lighting up a lot of eyes to many artists around the world. As a freelancer not associated with a studio....being able to buy a brand new Mac maxed out (without display), with Maya, Lightwave, Photoshop and Shake for around $10,000 within a few months.....this wouldve been unheard of last year....I dont think $25,000 would cover all those toys!!! Thank you Apple, Newtek and Alias.

Cheers :beer:

wgriffiths2000
06-24-2002, 04:11 PM
Hehe i think people need to relize that mac is just trying to get into the video post production. Since there already the system of choice for audio i think it will be great. Though i know that it kinda sucks that the discontinuing the the pc version but atleast there not beeing compleat asholes and stopping the releas of 2.5 :) . I think alot of companys will switch over to mac if there not already on mac its cheaper to by a mac system and shake then trying to switch comp programs though it all depands. Yah and i am not a mac lover i have a pc to and i use it a shit load more just because there is not enough stuff on mac.

anieves
06-25-2002, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by fxgogo

I advise everyone to do some research and check their facts before posting

But that's what make these forums so much fun!!!!:)

Saurus
06-26-2002, 09:11 AM
I work for a company that uses both apple and pc. I go through both mac and pc mags all the time at work. In the mac magazine, its mac vs pc; in the pc magazine, its intel vs athlon. Mac hardly mentioned in PC magazine. The only mac info I read is how cool their design are. Yet, in Mac magazine, there are a constant rant against PC, from letters to product review. They talked about how Micrsoft is the big evil company! For all I care they are all big evil companies, and Mac given a chance, will follow the same path that Microsoft followed…they are already doing too. I thought they were the bully on the block when they gave all those companies permission to create clones, only to pull the rug on them when they started eating at Mac’s profits…gee that very consumer friendly move. How can one trust a company that creates both the machine and operating system…and now, the applications one uses…So much for competition. Apple got all you mac owners by the balls. I least PC has choice, and may add by the tons. Price wise, there is no comparison. In Canada, white box outsells brand names. PC system has longer shelve live than macs…its constantly being upgraded. I got a 850 pentium, I just added another 850, replaced my 256 geforces with the geforces 4 ti….bam!!! New machine!!! It just pisses me off that apple now, is trying to manipulate the CG industry, buy program, then dropping other operating system beside Mac. I feel sorry for those companies that bought those programs, only to see apple drop their support. I think Mac should refund their money! As far as Microsoft, the industry wouldn’t be as big or available to the mass if they hadn’t bought Softimage and had it ported to PC. Not only companies with hundred thousand dollars machine can create CG, but also the low budget companies. This action forced Alias to port Maya into PC, and make it available to all budget. For all Alias care, they probably be happy having Maya exclusively SGI…keeping it in the family. I hope Microsoft, and even Adobe (who apple seems to be stabbing in the back) should get involved start kicking some apple ass!!! So, apple owner, shut up with the rant…both companies are evil!!

beaker
06-26-2002, 10:02 AM
>>I thought they were the bully on the block when they gave all those companies permission to create clones, only to pull the rug on them when they started eating at Mac’s profits…gee that very consumer friendly move.

It was doing alot more then eating into apple's profits. Apple had been loosing money for 2 years and they were going under. It was a matter of survival. If there is no apple then there is no macintosh operating system. So what's the point of having a bunch of clone makers if there is no operating system for it to run?

>>How can one trust a company that creates both the machine and operating system…and now, the applications one uses…

Millions of companies trust companies like this everyday for the most important jobs in the world. When a company controlls the hardware/software and operating system the systems are much more stable and dependable. Ever heard of the computers and operating sytems from: Sun, SGI, Cray, Alpha/HP-UX(compaq/hp), IBM, NEC, Hitachi? The list goes on and on, all of these companies make their own boxes and operating systems and alot of the software that runs on it.

>>In Canada, white box outsells brand names.

Thats nice for Joe Shmoe consumers but we are talking about companies doing professional work and not students in their basement using warez software. How many of those people puchasing a white box is actually buying US$10,000 software for their compositing needs. Most of the companies that purchase software that costs more then 5x the cost of their machines are usually buying a name brand box like a dell, ibm or hp box.

>>PC system has longer shelve live than macs…its constantly being upgraded. I got a 850 pentium, I just added another 850, replaced my 256 geforces with the geforces 4 ti….bam!!! New machine!!!

You do know that you can do this also with a macintosh. The processors are all upgradable. Macintosh uses agp just like a pc and the same kind of ram. You can swap out the processor and video card of a 4-5 year old mac and put a brand new ati radeon or geforce 4 ti in it.

>>It just pisses me off that apple now, is trying to manipulate the CG industry, buy program, then dropping other operating system beside Mac. I feel sorry for those companies that bought those programs, only to see apple drop their support. I think Mac should refund their money!

You really need to go back and read the press release. Apple is still continuing to make shake for SGI and linux. They only dropped support for the windows operating system after version 2.5. 2.5 hasn't even shipped yet so that will give everyone plenty of time to move over to linux. All shake licenses are floating so they can continue to use the license on whatever operating system they want. No one is forcing anyone to use a macintosh. There are plenty of other compositors out there to use. Digital Fusion, Commotion, Combustion, Afterfx, Matrix. Obviosly there isn't any lack of competition or choices.

>> I hope Microsoft, and even Adobe (who apple seems to be stabbing in the back)

Have you used premiere lately? It sucks ass! It has sucked ass since version 5.0 from 4 years ago. If I was apple and premiere was the only lowend editor I would go out and make my own editing app too. Premiere is an embarasment. Adobe needed a wake up call. The creator of premiere is also the creator of final cut pro. He obviosly left adobe to go create FCP for a reason. A little competition never hurt anyone. Actually it tends to help alot more and drive inovation because everyone is trying to beat everyone else at their own game. Premiere might end up being a better product in the long run because of it.

arvid
06-26-2002, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by Saurus
I work for a company that uses both apple and pc. I go through both mac and pc mags all the time at work. In the mac magazine, its mac vs pc; in the pc magazine, its intel vs athlon. Mac hardly mentioned in PC magazine. The only mac info I read is how cool their design are. Yet, in Mac magazine, there are a constant rant against PC, from letters to product review. They talked about how Micrsoft is the big evil company! For all I care they are all big evil companies, and Mac given a chance, will follow the same path that Microsoft followed…they are already doing too. I thought they were the bully on the block when they gave all those companies permission to create clones, only to pull the rug on them when they started eating at Mac’s profits…gee that very consumer friendly move. How can one trust a company that creates both the machine and operating system…and now, the applications one uses…So much for competition. Apple got all you mac owners by the balls. I least PC has choice, and may add by the tons. Price wise, there is no comparison. In Canada, white box outsells brand names. PC system has longer shelve live than macs…its constantly being upgraded. I got a 850 pentium, I just added another 850, replaced my 256 geforces with the geforces 4 ti….bam!!! New machine!!! It just pisses me off that apple now, is trying to manipulate the CG industry, buy program, then dropping other operating system beside Mac. I feel sorry for those companies that bought those programs, only to see apple drop their support. I think Mac should refund their money! As far as Microsoft, the industry wouldn’t be as big or available to the mass if they hadn’t bought Softimage and had it ported to PC. Not only companies with hundred thousand dollars machine can create CG, but also the low budget companies. This action forced Alias to port Maya into PC, and make it available to all budget. For all Alias care, they probably be happy having Maya exclusively SGI…keeping it in the family. I hope Microsoft, and even Adobe (who apple seems to be stabbing in the back) should get involved start kicking some apple ass!!! So, apple owner, shut up with the rant…both companies are evil!!

Awesome, I agree with every single word!!! :buttrock: They're all evil, and now that Apple is showing thier true side, mac users have their heads shoved so far up thier asses that they can't see it, or just won't admit it. Companies won't change, but Ms don't deserve all the ranting. As you pointed out, they made sure that Softimage|3D was ported to NT, and they afaik launched the development of Softimage|XSI before Avid aquired Softimage Inc.

Linux will take over after SGI and Irix in the CG industry, the smaller studios might find it more easy to operate the Windows system, but it's the SAME hardware!!! Linux gives me hope even tho Apple is doing their best to ruin everything, again as you said, by selling hardware+OS+software, effectively eradicating competition, competition is good and the masses will not accept anything else.

Milho
07-01-2002, 06:49 PM
Apple acquires Emagic

Next one :annoyed:
Hope they know what they do...

greekdish
07-01-2002, 07:28 PM
Amazing the amount of ignorance in these forums...."Mac heads", "Heads shoved up their ass", "PC's have longer shelf life than Macs".....ROFL.....oh, so us Mac users are morons and naive fools because we use Macs and we dont know any better?? What a joke some of you people are.....for the most part, many people are very well educated here, and have open minds....but the few of you here are close-minded and foolish, to say the least. How can a company with 5% marketshare be a big evil company like MS??? Is it so wrong that they want to make applications for their computers?? What a bunch of selfish immature brats some of you are that when we Mac users finally get software for our platform of choice, you all whine and bitch like it ain't fair. Tough cookies I say....shoes on the other foot right now. Cry me a river, build a bridge and get over it. Whaaa whaa whaaa....Apple is doing good things for their customers...if you arent a customer, then shut the hell up. You have nothing to say about Apple. I dont care that they cost slightly more than Dells....and I definitely dont care if they are twice as much as white boxe POS....I too own a white box PC, and its the worst decision I have EVER made in computing....bunch of crap cheap parts thrown together and call it a PC....yeah, I upgraded my parts and OS...only cuz the damn thing wouldnt work if I didnt. Mac users should shut up?? I think PC bigots should shut up because of their ignorant uninformed assanine comments and lemming drone thoughts. Oh yeah, MS brought Softimage over to PC so they can help out you poor little consumers. My ass.....with the prices of all those software apps..Soft, Maya, Avid running at well over $20,000 at the time....Bill Gates had YOU in mind...ROFL....talk about naive......learn your computer history....Bill Gates needed the industry to validate Windows NT and without those high end apps, WinNT was doomed.....BG cared less about consumers because WinNT wasnt aimed for consumers.

Apple is stabbing Adobe in the back??? What a joke that statement is...Adobe took well over a year to release Photoshop 7 for Mac OSX, but yet they released every other app for Mac OSX first, like InDesign....MANY more people use PS than InDesign....whats up with that??? When MANY people and companies are waiting to upgrade to OSX when PS7 comes out....who is really hurting who??? Apple lost tons of money because of Adobe. Apple seems like its not waiting for anyone else to control their destiny...so more power to them.

Well....I guess I should get off this 6 yr old Mac because hey, PC's really have longer shelf lives than Macs....gee, what was I thinking running Lightwave 7.5, Cinema 4D, Maya, and FCP and any other modern day app, and Mac OSX on this 6yr old dinosaur....hmmm....can any PC 6 yrs old run WinXP??? I think not.

Bottomline is...some certain PC bigots should really get a clue, and investigate facts before reading "PC magazines and their corny ass processor battle hype-ups." When it comes down to it....the Mac magazines give unbiased facts about both platforms, and which is why most Mac users are more computer literate overall than most PC users...which is why I was able to rebutte all your ignorant statements with facts, when all you can say is....I can choose either an Intel or an Athlon...I have choices!!! ROFL....oh yeah....major choices there....your two choices over my single choice. Whoopie doo!!!! woot woot!!! :applause: :rolleyes:

Milho
07-01-2002, 08:25 PM
greekdish wrote...

....Apple is doing good things for their customers...if you arent a customer, then shut the hell up. You have nothing to say about Apple...

Before:

Amazing the amount of ignorance in these forums

;)

.....with the prices of all those software apps..Soft, Maya, Avid running at well over $20,000 at the time....

Maya Complete US $1999.00
Softimage XSI 2.0 $4995.00
compare to prices some years ago, apple is not the only one who makes prices low.

Just this one:

.....for the most part, many people are very well educated here, and have open minds....


I think all these talking is for nothing. Use whatever you want, i will do so and hey when i get the chance i'll try macs as well. who cares. it's not a question about mac or pc but a question wheter mac users would like it if MS bought PS and just released it for PC ;)

Alex Lindsay
07-01-2002, 09:13 PM
The only way Apple's model works is to eliminate support for other platforms. It's not personal...it's just the model.

This way...who cares if you pirate the software if you have to buy a product from Apple to use it.

You leave distributive technologies, like Quicktime, crossplatform while developing platform specific tools to support the content creation...

It's not very open...and it sucks if you're on the other side...but it's a very elegant model. And given that the Graphics market is too small to worry about antitrust...there's almost no way to stop it.

You will probably see more happen in this area...the market is very weak...which makes it ripe for cosolidation...which is what Apple is doing.

I imagine Renderman on OSX is pretty close...the X-servers don't make a ton of sense without it.

a

Saurus
07-01-2002, 11:21 PM
>> A typical Mac head who has his head so far inside Apple’s ass that no matter what facts
goes against Apple…you’ll still deny it.

Amazing the amount of ignorance in these forums...."Mac heads", "Heads shoved up their ass", "PC's have longer shelf life than Macs".....ROFL.....oh, so us Mac users are morons and naive fools because we use Macs and we dont know any better?? What a joke some of you people are.....for the most part, many people are very well educated here, and have open minds....but the few of you here are close-minded and foolish, to say the least. How can a company with 5% marketshare be a big evil company like MS??? Is it so wrong that they want to make applications for their computers??

>>mmmm….calling us immature brats “Whaaa whaa whaaa....Apple is doing good things for their customers...if you arent a customer, then shut the hell up. You have nothing to say about Apple.” …gee that was mature. The shoe is in the other foot…sorry dude you guys lost the desk top industry to PC. Irix lost the VFX to PC. Mac only has crumbs. Even your Maya version is only “complete version” good only for gaming.

What a bunch of selfish immature brats some of you are that when we Mac users finally get software for our platform of choice, you all whine and bitch like it ain't fair. Tough cookies I say....shoes on the other foot right now. Cry me a river, build a bridge and get over it. Whaaa whaa whaaa....Apple is doing good things for their customers...if you arent a customer, then shut the hell up

>>Your white box didn’t work, maybe you’re not too technical enough to put a machine together…that’s what I expect from a mac user. Yeah, call a tech guy to fix your machine. Made of cheap parts. The last time I checked Mac switch from SCSI to ATA (PC), using PC memories and always behind in adapting, switched to Zip processor connection, USB, VGA, video card…man, if I look inside your Mac, I probably see more “white box” parts than original Mac parts.

You have nothing to say about Apple. I dont care that they cost slightly more than Dells....and I definitely dont care if they are twice as much as white boxe POS....
I too own a white box PC, and its the worst decision I have EVER made in computing....bunch of crap cheap parts thrown together and call it a PC....yeah, I upgraded my parts and OS...only cuz the damn thing wouldnt work if I didnt.


>>Idiot, you only added up the cost of software, if there was no NT version, your software/machine combo adds up to 100,000. NT doomed…gee when its is being used on so many server.

Mac users should shut up?? I think PC bigots should shut up because of their ignorant uninformed assanine comments and lemming drone thoughts. Oh yeah, MS brought Softimage over to PC so they can help out you poor little consumers. My ass.....with the prices of all those software apps..Soft, Maya, Avid running at well over $20,000 at the time....Bill Gates had YOU in mind...ROFL....talk about naive......learn your computer history....Bill Gates needed the industry to validate Windows NT and without those high end apps, WinNT was doomed.....BG cared less about consumers because WinNT wasnt aimed for consumers.


>>Companies don’t push software for the sake of another company . If its buggy, then you keep working on it. Its Adobe intention to build a stable software.

Apple is stabbing Adobe in the back??? What a joke that statement is...Adobe took well over a year to release Photoshop 7 for Mac OSX, but yet they released every other app for Mac OSX first, like InDesign....MANY more people use PS than InDesign....whats up with that??? When MANY people and companies are waiting to upgrade to OSX when PS7 comes out....who is really hurting who??? Apple lost tons of money because of Adobe. Apple seems like its not waiting for anyone else to control their destiny...so more power to them.

>> Yeah its nice to look at 3D interface on your old Mac…working on it is bullshit. I can probably do the same with 486 and NT…again I probably be just looking at the nice interface.

Well....I guess I should get off this 6 yr old Mac because hey, PC's really have longer shelf lives than Macs....gee, what was I thinking running Lightwave 7.5, Cinema 4D, Maya, and FCP and any other modern day app, and Mac OSX on this 6yr old dinosaur....hmmm....can any PC 6 yrs old run WinXP??? I think not.

>>The bottomline is you’re your head stuck in Apple’s bottomline. It just kills me how mac constantly compare the speed between the two platform base on a couple of photoshop filter…why don’t they do a proper test. Check out this test: http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/2002/05_may/features/cw_aeshowdown.htm
I am just laughing at your statement “the Mac magazines give unbiased facts about both platforms, and which is why most Mac users are more computer literate overall than most PC users...” Like I said no matter “. A typical Mac head who has his head so far inside Apple’s ass that no matter what facts goes against Apple…you’ll still deny it. So woot woot and go suck some brownies.

Bottomline is...some certain PC bigots should really get a clue, and investigate facts before reading "PC magazines and their corny ass processor battle hype-ups." When it comes down to it....the Mac magazines give unbiased facts about both platforms, and which is why most Mac users are more computer literate overall than most PC users...which is why I was able to rebutte all your ignorant statements with facts, when all you can say is....I can choose either an Intel or an Athlon...I have choices!!! ROFL....oh yeah....major choices there....your two choices over my single choice. Whoopie doo!!!! woot woot!!!

beaker
07-01-2002, 11:32 PM
Saurus: you might want to edit your message a little more so we can tell which part is you speaking and which part is a quote from the last person. Your post is very cryptic and hard to read. Sentences from the person you are quoting is flowing right into your own posts.

Saurus
07-02-2002, 12:01 AM
Dude knows who I'm referring to, but if you need to know...I was referring to Greekdish, but then again it can also be referenced to you, Beaker! Your response to my post was very contradicting. If you want details, you have to wait...I got to get back to my PC and so some work.

Saurus

beaker
07-02-2002, 01:30 AM
As for my previous post I was just pointing out that it was very hard to read it and I had to keep on going back and fourth between your post and greekdish to figure out who was saying what. If a post is simply meant for another person and not the group then you should email them personally.

As for my previous post I was simply correcting misinformation in your post, don't take it personally. I did not attack you personally at any level. You stated information that was incorrect and I was simply correcting you. So don't get so snippy.

greekdish
07-02-2002, 01:35 AM
Yes, I do know you were talking to me Saurus, but start writing better, understandable English so people can comprehend what you are writing.

>> A typical Mac head who has his head so far inside Apple’s ass that no matter what facts

Who really is in denial?? I dont have any problems with what Apple is doing. You are the one bitchin about it.

sorry dude you guys lost the desk top industry to PC

Oh, we did??? Obviously you never worked for any graphic design agency, or ad agency, or pre-press house, as I did just 3 months ago.....ALL Mac...sorry....desktop publishing is still dominated by Macs....get some facts.

Mac only has crumbs. Even your Maya version is only “complete version” good only for gaming.

Gee....last I recall, PC Maya version 1.0 was crumbs also....but I guess Alias isnt going to release Maya 4.5 at the same time as PC, nor Lightwave 7.5 isnt IDENTICAL to PC version, as is Cinema 4D....crumbs??? Well hey, pass me a second serving!!! :beer:

>>Your white box didn’t work, maybe you’re not too technical enough to put a machine together…that’s what I expect from a mac user. Yeah, call a tech guy to fix your machine. Made of cheap parts. The last time I checked Mac switch from SCSI to ATA (PC), using PC memories and always behind in adapting, switched to Zip processor connection, USB, VGA, video card…man, if I look inside your Mac, I probably see more “white box” parts than original Mac parts.

Hmmm...where do i begin with this one....who said I put it together??? White box is a no name brand PC put together by someone...doesnt have to be me. It works now, because of the UPGRADES I HAD TO DO. Not too technical?? Oh yeah, really hard putting together a computer...plugging in parts to a motherboard...hahaha...really hard there pal. And what I mean by cheap parts.....is....listen up.....ATA is ATA, HD's are HD's....but there are different manufacturers and control chips for each and every one of them.....does Apple use the same ATA chip controllers as Dell or Gateway?? Do they use the same manufacturer of Firewire controllers??? Same AGP controllers?? Same platter parts in the HD??? Not everything is the same, even though the technology is the same and compatible. Apple makes their own motherboards....are they the same as Dells?? I think not. White box is no name brand..which means its a bunch of parts from different developers, which makes for headaches, and if you think otherwise, you are truly naive. And even if I didnt know how to build a computer, it wouldnt make me, or anyone else less "techy"....sorry that you have enough free time to take apart and rebuild computers, but I dont, and Im sure other people dont want to either....we want to work ON the computers, not work IN them.

>>Idiot, you only added up the cost of software, if there was no NT version, your software/machine combo adds up to 100,000. NT doomed…gee when its is being used on so many server.

Duh...thats my point u moron....I only added the cost of the software, cuz only after the cost of the software, its costing more on the PC, than hardware AND software on the Mac...learn to read...It's all hypothetical on Apple keeping to form, and charging about $1000 for the Shake...while Shake, as is right now, is way overpriced for the PC and Linux.

>>Companies don’t push software for the sake of another company . If its buggy, then you keep working on it. Its Adobe intention to build a stable software.

When that company/platform is well over 60% of your profit base...you better. Adobe does build, most of the time, stable software....but obviously you've never used Illustrator 9, or InDesign 1.X, or GoLive 5 in a production environment.

>> Yeah its nice to look at 3D interface on your old Mac…working on it is bullshit. I can probably do the same with 486 and NT…again I probably be just looking at the nice interface.

Oh, I didnt know you were looking over my shoulder as I was working, or that you saw the performance of my Mac. Amazing...you must be invisible....which is what your argument is...a typical arrogant PC bigot comment to say that just because he cannot do any work on a 6 yr old PC, and just look at the interface...then I must not be able to do any work on my 6 yr old Mac. ROFLMAO....get a clue my friend....try out a Mac for once and see why Mhz means shit in the world of computing. Im not saying my Mac is as fast as current Macs or PC's....but Im MORE than able to do work on my beloved 6 yr old Mac.....do I detect jealousy in that remark of yours?? :applause: :applause:


>>The bottomline is you’re your head stuck in Apple’s bottomline. It just kills me how mac constantly compare the speed between the two platform base on a couple of photoshop filter…why don’t they do a proper test.

A typical Mac head who has his head so far inside Apple’s ass that no matter what facts goes against Apple…you’ll still deny it. So woot woot and go suck some brownies.

Have I ever said that Mac's are the fastest??? Have I ever said that Apple is the best at everything??? Don't put words in my mouth dude....Im merely replying to the highly insulting remarks posted by a few ignorant PC bigots...including yourself. Apple compares Photoshop filters because Photoshop is highly optimized for both platforms, and is TO SHOW people that Mhz doesnt matter....not that Macs are the fastest computers in the world....try and understand marketing pee-on....I also know about the After Effects benchmarks, and thats fine...but why benchmark only final rendering?? Its hypocritical of your own post as to why Apple only shows Photoshop filters. I take it all with a grain of salt....I never take Steve Job's keynotes and demonstrations as Word of God....but I think you do. My point is...no one can benchmark how someone works on a particular platform....I get more work done on my 6 yr old Mac with a 400mhz G3, 432MB RAM, and a 32MB RAdeon PCI, than my one year old dual 1Ghz P3 PC, with WinXP with 1.5 GB RAM, and a 128MB GeForce 4 Ti 4400 video card. It doesnt make a difference to ME...if my PC is 10 times faster in rendering....if I cant get to the point of rendering, what good is all that speed?? User interface has a lot to do with my production...being able to work in different programs back and forth is what matters to me.

I am just laughing at your statement “the Mac magazines give unbiased facts about both platforms, and which is why most Mac users are more computer literate overall than most PC users...”

Do you have any evidence on the contrary??? Besides MacAddict which is always tongue-in-cheek, and more a humorous magazine, than a true fact stater..check out a Macworld next time, and see for yourself, if there is any biased Mac reporting. I challenge you to find one.

I always find it amazing that PC bigots will be the first to serve up hyperlinks to sites showing a Mac losing a benchmark and such, but when a Mac beats a PC in a benchmark, the typical quotes come up...."Its only Photoshop filters", or its "biased", or "the test was rigged".

moovieboy
07-16-2002, 09:55 PM
Geez, after pouring through the past 7 pages of this thread, I feel like I need an anti-venom serum and a need to get some Zoloft for some of you guys... Sheesh!

But hey, I can at least understand where this kind of hatred boils up from...

-- You finally buy a high-end 3D package, only to watch it's price drop by HALF the following week.

-- You talk to a developer at SIGGRAPH about a great program that's "coming out next month" and a friggin year goes by, delaying your big project or forcing you to buy some lesser product.

-- You find out some guy in Japan has written a ton of plug-ins that solve some of your biggest problems, only to discover they're only written for a different platform.

-- (and the ever popular) You just threw another $2,000 or more on hardware that becomes $750 a month later.

Yes, all this and more suck. But what industry did you think you were in? Word processing? Digital knitting?

Look, it's okay to get pissed. But, this is the nature of the beast.

Apple's probably realized (like the rest of the industry) that you can't convince mom and dad to buy a whole new computer every year because of a G4 or a Pentium 4, so they're looking at two major areas: converts (Those new "switch" ads) and industry folk... us fools who WILL buy the G5 and the Pentium 5 alsmost as soon as they come out.

Will it work or backfire? Well, with only 5% market share, at least they're giving it a shot.

Meanwhile, could we all not bash the living crap out of each other just because one person uses this platform over another? That's a bit like flogging the poor schmoe who owns a gas station because of what the big oil companies do to prices.

Truth be told, us Mac folks have much much more to be sour over. (3D Studio Max, Softimage, Maya Unlimited or Boujou anyone?)

So, unless YOU personally just spent $10,000 on Shake, could we all just take a deep breath and notice we're all in the same boat?

Thus endeth the lesson...:rolleyes:

-Tom

Saurus
08-02-2002, 11:47 PM
mmm....Apple is sounding too much like Microsoft:

"Shake 2.5 is scheduled to be available in August for Mac OS X, Linux, IRIX and Windows through Apple Authorized Pro Film Resellers. Shake 2.5 will be available for Mac OS X for a suggested retail price of $4,950 (US) with annual maintenance of $1,199 (US), and for Linux, IRIX and Windows for a suggested retail price of $9,900 (US) with annual maintenance of $1,485 (US). Existing Shake customers will be given the option to double the number of their existing licenses at no additional cost by migrating to Mac OS X. "

Nothin but Macincarp!!

Saurus

Alex Lindsay
08-03-2002, 04:13 AM
It's really just a graceful crossgrade since Apple is going to kill support for the other platforms next year.

Did you see how hard they've begun to push the 3D performance?

Apple....coming to a 3D app near you...

a

beaker
08-03-2002, 06:58 AM
>>It's really just a graceful crossgrade since Apple is going to kill support for the other platforms next year.

Well the letter they sent us said that they would guarantee to continue developing the software till the end of next year and then reevaluate whether or not to continue supporting it. So they can't really stop supporting the software till the end of 2004 since many people will still have support contracts till then. Im sure if some of the larger companies continue to use it on the other platforms, they will probably continue to develop it past 2003.(For example Weta who has 50 gui licenses and 100 render nodes running on linux and irix.) Just look at what Softimage did with soft3d for ILM who is still using it(and a few others). Softimage ported it over to linux just recently and made a new version(4.0), 2.5 years after XSI started shipping. I am sure this resulted from a little pressure from ILM and some others.

MacRonin
08-03-2002, 03:06 PM
One would expect that these companies will replace equipment at some point. This is when Apple can make generous offers of discounts on large hardware purchases, when bundled with software license transfers to Mac OS X versions of Shake.

If this leads to a way to speed up Shake, who wouldn't want to switch?!?

http://www.opengl.org/developers/code/features/siggraph2002_bof/sg2002bof_apple.pdf

Alex Lindsay
08-03-2002, 06:54 PM
I guarantee that the 200-500 current licenses of Shake mean very little to Apple. They are only interested in numbers exceeding 50K.

a

MacRonin
08-04-2002, 01:18 AM
They must mean something to Apple, for them to buy the company. I can see where Apple might be using Shake as a wedge in the door of high-end animation/compositing/editing shops, to gain future saturation of hardware & software in these markets.

With the rise of production level applications available on Mac OS X, the Unix underpinnings of the same, and the hardware coming through the Apple pipeline in the next six months, I can see more studios switching over to the Mac in the future.

Time will tell...

tropistic
08-04-2002, 01:28 AM
I own a Shake license. And Alex is right. Apple has done nothing to keep me as a customer. Instead, their decisions have made them lose me as a customer.

And I'm certain it means nothing to Apple at all.

Jay

Nimbus
08-04-2002, 07:15 AM
The way I figure it Apple has to be aggresive when it comes to acquiring software as they only have around 6% of the computer market share. Granted Shake itself will not bring in that many buyers to the mac but I guess Apple has something in the works. I myself do not have a Mac.( Damn things is expensive as hell ) but eventually i'll get one sooner or later.

MacRonin
08-04-2002, 02:39 PM
Jay,

Did you pay for your copy of Shake? Are you making money with it?

Hopefully the answer to the second question is yes, otherwise you spent a lot of cash on 'a cool compositing app', for no reason. Always look for a return on investment within the first year of any major software purchase, or it is not worth it.

How is Apple not doing anything for you? They are releasing v2.5 for all platforms. They are offering Windows users two licenses for one, to switch over to the Mac. And they are putting more into the program than the Nothing Real crew themselves could do.

Now, hold on, I am NOT knocking the Nothing Real crew. I AM pointing out the fact that a good number of the Discreet combustion programmers are now working with the Nothing Real crew, which can only be a good thing. Quartz Extreme could lead to some interesting possibilities also.

It is business folks. Did everyone go spastic when Kodak stopped releasing Cineon? NO, they made sure there was a safe backup of the software, and continued using it. Some places still use it, old and outdated as it is!

All I am saying, is give the new Apple Shake a chance, and see where it goes. Who knows? Getting a new PowerMac and transferring your old licesne over could be the best thing that has ever happened for you...!

tropistic
08-04-2002, 03:57 PM
Nope, making pretty pictures is a hobby for me. But yep, I sure did paid for my license. I didn't start off choosing a $10k app - I actually started off justing getting the now defunct Shake Lite years ago, then got upgraded to a render only license, and finally a bought full GUI license. It just sorta happened.

When I was a Nothing Real customer, I was an extremely satisfied using the NT version. The OS of my choice, on computers of my choice. And quite delighted with Shake's performance.

Now, as an Apple customer, I see Apple's move as doing something only for itself, for Apple, by offering me the opportunity to buy one or two macs at full price. You can see that, in my circumstances, I don't benefit by the second license for free deal. Now, if Apple were to surprise me with a shiny new machine on my doorstep....

But as it stands, I can take it or leave it. And I'll bet Apple would prefer someone like me just go away - the sooner the better.

Jay

MacRonin
08-04-2002, 04:13 PM
Sorry for your situation Jay...

But take a look at the Apple of today, under Steve Jobs. It is nothing like the Apple that was running without Steve Jobs at the helm.

I even think of the years without Jobs as a false Apple, not meeting the vision of its original founder. Just look at the transition of Apple, from the disorganized Amelio years with dozens of product offerings; to the tight ship back under Jobs' leadership, with a handful of focused products to bring the company back into the black. Now, with the return of jobs, we see the integration of NeXT (which was just an extension of what Jobs saw for the Mac) and the birth of a new OS.

I see Apple becoming the new SGI, as far as workstations go.

So, keep an eye on Apple, and maybe you will make the change someday...

Or, keep running Shake v2.5 for Windows on your current & future Windows boxes. Even if it is no longer updated, it still composites, right?!?

tropistic
08-04-2002, 05:03 PM
Thanks for the sympathy...I guess. But I'd just as soon be happily welcoming you mac users on board though.

My bet is that Apple gets nowhere with its plans to replace SGI, take over the industry, etc. I doubt they even get much further that a foot in the door, here and there. Unless they've got some super secret hardware up their sleeves, and they plan on pricing it agressively and competitively, no one will seriously switch over. All the big studios are just going to scrap the hugh Intel/Linux farms they just installed - for a bunch of hardware at 5 times the cost at half the speed? I don't think so.

All Apple will have accomplished is taking Shake for a ride - to a place where it'll never regain its place in the industry. No matter who they sell it off to.

Yeah, I can still use 2.5 till it gets long in the tooth. But I just might stay with 2.46 - it still says Nothing Real, and it doesn't have that logo that right now makes me pretty damn disgusted.

Jay

MacRonin
08-04-2002, 05:40 PM
No need to replace renderfarms, they will still work... And, as other have mentioned, larger shops will probably be able to pressure Apple into continuing with render node licenses for Irix/Linux beyond v2.5; until the same houses get around to replacing their renderfarms... And I would expect Apple to provide an enticing reason to switch to higher priced Apple hardware for future renderfarms, like lower prices on volume purchases...

But studios DO replace workstations every three years or so... Apple will have very compelling products to move Shake users over to in the next six months...

I would still upgrade from v2.46 to v2.5 though... Makes no sense to turn away a free upgrade on reasons of pure spite...!

beaker
08-04-2002, 06:36 PM
>>I guarantee that the 200-500 current licenses of Shake mean very little to Apple. They are only interested in numbers exceeding 50K.

Thing is, don't you think they would have lowered shake down too a price closer to FCP in order to get that many numbers. At 5k a pop I donno if they can get 50k people. Unless you are talking about the new compositor that they are probably working on with rayz, chalice and shake technology.

MacRonin
08-04-2002, 06:57 PM
Excellent point beaker!

Apple could be using the whole v2.5 thing as a transition. This keeps the Shake name 'out there' during Siggraph2002, and fulfills the v2.5 for Windows release promise. They also offer a hell of a crossgrade deal to existing customers, but one which doesn't make much sense because of weak hardware. And then a new PowerMac comes out (rumored to occur sometime this month) which makes running Shake on a Mac a lot more attractive.

Fast forward about half of a year; Apple releases Shake v3.0 for Mac OS X, and announces that the v3.0 for Irix/Linux will be CLI rendernodes only. Again, attractive crossgrades to Mac OS X versions are made available.

Another six months down the line; Apple announces the transition from Shake to the 'ready for primetime' collaberation of Shake/Chalice/Rayz. Pricing is dropped to less than 2 grand, and Irix/Linux are NOT supported. This package (on Apple certified hardware) is AllTime RealTime...

Speculate at will!

Alex Lindsay
08-06-2002, 02:47 AM
Never know.

Eventually, you want it hooked to Final Cut.

At this moment, I'm behind a Media 100 artist showing their 10 bit edit/compositing system...pretty saucy.

a

Saurus
08-13-2002, 03:46 AM
I wonder how the responce would be to all apple users, if the name apple was replaced by microsoft in all the posting in this subject matter....mmmmm? Would they responce with the same answers, when they backed up apple's moves.

Saurus

arvid
08-13-2002, 08:10 AM
Jay: sorry for our common loss, lets have a look at DD's NUKE software shall we?


macronin: bullshit!!


All I am saying, is give the new Apple Shake a chance, and see where it goes. Who knows? Getting a new PowerMac and transferring your old licesne over could be the best thing that has ever happened for you...!


dream f#%¤ing on


Originally posted by Saurus
I wonder how the responce would be to all apple users, if the name apple was replaced by microsoft in all the posting in this subject matter....mmmmm? Would they responce with the same answers, when they backed up apple's moves.

Saurus

They wouldn't care, they're not too used to getting good software available for their machines, and so far they cannot possibly miss Shake, cuz they never had it!

But imagine a scenario involving photoshop, finalcut, lightwave, just about anything, taken away from the mac platform...

...geez, mr macronin would sing a different tune and NOBODY could make him switch to that new platform, cuz it would disguist him.


Something that boggles me is the fact that they still got linux support.. i mean how the f*%# is that supposed to be interpreted?? Is this all an attempt at bitchslapping Ms and saying "right back at ya!" ? Pathetic, they have got nothing to do with this, all apple will achieve is unhappy (used-to-be) customers.

beaker
08-13-2002, 08:59 AM
>>Jay: sorry for our common loss, lets have a look at DD's NUKE software shall we?

Maybe we should wait till it is actually an announced product. DD has been talking about making Nuke a product for the public for 5 years. They still have not even announced that they are going to ship it as a product yet. All news reports have been speculations, not announcements. The only actual msg's from guys at DD have said, "Hey, people email us and tell us if your interested in buying Nuke." Not, "we are going to make nuke a product and it is shipping next year". So lets get back to the world of reality and not the world of vaporware. Set your sights on compositors that are allready here like combustion, digital fusion, afterfx, etc...

>>Something that boggles me is the fact that they still got linux support.. i mean how the f*%# is that supposed to be interpreted?? Is this all an attempt at bitchslapping Ms and saying "right back at ya!" ? Pathetic, they have got nothing to do with this, all apple will achieve is unhappy (used-to-be) customers.

Windows professional licenses of shake are equal to about 10% of their customers. Almost all the big visualfx places are either SGI or Linux. Everyone else who can afford their software is moving to linux, so its not that big of a deal loosing the windows version.

arvid
08-13-2002, 09:09 AM
>>Maybe we should wait till it is actually an announced product.

yes ;) Im just letting ppl know that shake will be replaced if not by NUKE then something else, and when the maccies eventually want that too, they can have it, but damn it they can't steal it.

>>so its not that big of a deal loosing the windows version.

for the customer, it probably is.

greekdish
08-13-2002, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by opacity

They wouldn't care, they're not too used to getting good software available for their machines, and so far they cannot possibly miss Shake, cuz they never had it!

But imagine a scenario involving photoshop, finalcut, lightwave, just about anything, taken away from the mac platform...

...geez, mr macronin would sing a different tune and NOBODY could make him switch to that new platform, cuz it would disguist him.

Something that boggles me is the fact that they still got linux support.. i mean how the f*%# is that supposed to be interpreted?? Is this all an attempt at bitchslapping Ms and saying "right back at ya!" ? Pathetic, they have got nothing to do with this, all apple will achieve is unhappy (used-to-be) customers. [/B]

Not too used to getting good software??? What are you kidding?? For someone that runs Windows crap OS's, what do YOU know about good software???

Imagine a scenario??? Maybe if you mentioned a scenario with software that either didnt have more than 50% Mac users, or didnt have more than 200 Mac users. To compare Shake with PS, Lightwave or any other software with a huge user base is ignorant. You need to come to grips with reality and realize that it isnt a good business decision for Apple to keep producing Shake for less than 200 customers. How can you blame them for this??? Should Apple start losing money, simply because YOU arent happy??? Cripes sake, they offer a 2 for 1 deal license crossgrade, and you are acting like its the end of the world.

Get a clue as to why they are still keeping Linux support. Mac OSX is UNIX based, Linux is UNIX based.....get it??? Very easy to support both platforms. WINDOWS is the only proprietary OS left in the world. As you read, many studios are going to Linux. You dont hear any news that people are going over to Windows in the future. Studios are leaving Windows in droves. Which brings me to another point...the people that are buying Shake are mainly Studios. How many of the Shake users are home users??? I doubt more than 10. Do you think Studios care about getting 2 licenses for the price of one??? I think so. Do you think they will mind?? I dont think so. Unless we get some head department people from ILM, Weta, Pixar or DD in here, or any other studio, and stating that the studio is unhappy with getting 2 licenses for the cost of one, simply for going to Mac, then its only a reality based in your mind Opacity. Let it go man.

Saurus
08-14-2002, 04:22 AM
Hey Greekdish,

_______________________________________________
Get a clue as to why they are still keeping Linux support. Mac OSX is UNIX based, Linux is UNIX based.....get it??? Very easy to support both platforms. WINDOWS is the only proprietary OS left in the world. As you read, many studios are going to Linux. You dont hear any news that people are going over to Windows in the future. Studios are leaving Windows in droves. Which brings me to another point...the people that are buying Shake are mainly Studios. How many of the Shake users are home users???
_______________________________________________

I think u should get back to reality. When I first started in the Visual Effects industry over four years ago, our facilities was all macs with one PC, for 3D. Next VFX job, 80 Win Box, 5 Irix and a couple of Mac for audio. My current job, 10 Win, 3 Irix, 25 Linux (render farm) and 1 Mac. I don't even know what that mac is doing there...nobody seems to want to touch it.

For what I been seeing, I think the Mac industry in the VFX industry is shrinking. It is probably worse in the gaming industry. Those guys work hard, but they also play hard. The amount of games in the Mac world just doesn't cut it for them.

We are currently changing our render farm from Linux back to Win. There are some bugs during Maya rendering that only shows up in linux, but not Win. Maya even acknowledge the linux bug. Im sure, there are some Win bugs, but I least we know right away if we stick to one operating system all through out the pipeline.

I say, from the majority of my fellow workers, 90 or more % are die-hard PC user. There would be a lot of people "pissed" if they had to switch to Mac.

Saurus

moovieboy
08-14-2002, 06:20 AM
Note to SOME of you in this thread:

You want to call yourselves "professionals?" Start acting like it.

There are some important sharks that cruise these waters. As in people who may someday be hiring YOU!

As anyone in this, and for that matter all of show biz, will tell you, we don't care how talented you are if you act like a jerk.

Start treating each other's choice of platforms/programs/etc with a little more respect and leave the bone-headed moves to the corporations. :D

-Tom

beaker
08-14-2002, 06:44 AM
>>We are currently changing our render farm from Linux back to Win.

I donno dude, hopefully you guys don't live to regret that. We did run into bugs with the linux renderer side of maya, but there were 10x as many problems on the windows side. Also you hit the memory ceiling so quickly with windows because of its horrible memory usage.

1.) Maya uses 4x as much ram on windows than any other OS that it runs on. Also 32 bit operating system has a limit of about 1.5-1.6 gig of ram that it can allocate too any one application. You can have 4 gigs of physical ram and 2 gigs of swap space and it won't matter because the app can only use around 1.6 gig of it. We hit that ceiling so much and unless you can bring down the memory usage, there is no way to render the image. You just get a "memory exception thrown" error everytime.

2.) Try putting 1 single light of any kind in maya on windows and put the shadow map up to 8k. It will not render no matter what. With an even moderatly size scene you cannot have any shadow map above 2k or you will get a memory exception thrown.

3.) Lame ass drive letters. These bite you in the ass so much. You can get around it, but it is still a logistics issue when bringing in new users. NFS is so sweet where you just mount the file systems as a directory on every machine and you don't have to worry about fixing maya ascii files all the time.

4.) fur renders 4x faster under linux

5.) You can have a separate swap partition so your swap doesn't get fragmented, slowing you down.

6.) Shell scripts are god. They are 100x better than lame ass windows based command line scripting.

The only linux issues we ran into were the render crashing when generating huge amounts of shadow maps from point lights(like 100 shadow maps). Also a few other issues, but they came from user mistakes that windows is lienient on, like spaces in file names and windows version of maya likes too add lots of /////// to the file paths that makes it so the linux render can't find the texture files. We just had a script to get rid of the extra //////// in the file name.

Just a couple things too think about. This all comes from experience of working on a big projects rendered in maya. Not talking out of my ass.

Saurus
08-14-2002, 07:18 AM
Beaker,

My second job used Maya and Lightwave, and using Win Op and render software, spider, our farm worked awesome. Any machine on the floor also became part of the render farm. When working with large files, you can assign a couple of machine to do one frame. I been with the third company for only 2 months, but it seems like they had it with the linux renderer.

I don't know about the problems your company encountered, but I rather encounter bugs during building stage, than the rendering stage. From what I can remember, I hadn't have any major problem thats bug related.

Saurus

AxelM
08-24-2002, 09:41 PM
So many words, opinions, near-OS-wars (well, that was a compliment!) where thrown around in this thread.

I read it just now, read the first half, flown ofter the second.

My impression:

Hardliners are around, fight for why Mac is bad or good, Windows is good or bad, Linux is good or bad and so on.

Just my 2 cents (Euro-Cents of course) to add:

I own a post production company, together with two partners we founded it in 1996, after doing first jobs in that area since 1991 as a freelancer team. Today we have 14 people in the office. Still small company, very small company, but "something" when it comes on doing commercials (which is our main job). We work mainly on tv and cine commercials (cine commercials are very common in europe).

We have today about 30 PC based systems (AMDs/Intels, no real brand machines, many of them custom assembled) and ONE Mac, a PowerPC75 based one. It was used to actually convert data from Mac using customers to our PC world. Thanks to nicely running MacOpener, this machine wasn´t started for about half a year. Well, I am lying. A freelance graphic artist doing web design mainly, who has an office in our office too, he still has three Macs. But already a PC, and the main reason for him to stay on the Mac is probably that all his software was bought for the Mac. But many apps run on the PC too, so there is no real difference. Beside that he is unhappily looking when we install the next Walmart-priced PC with 2+ GHz. The newest Mac is comparably more expensive, EVEN if you look at the software coming with it.

Anyway, I am not defensing PCs over Macs today. I am an old C64 guy, grew up to the graphics world with the Amiga. I worked at Commodore, Amiga department for quite some time, hired and as freelance too. I went to dozens of exhibitions as presenter. Later mainly for a commonly unknown 3D app called "Real3D" now Realsoft3D. Btw, a product that we helped porting from Amiga to Windows, to DEC Alpha NT, to Linux, SGI and soon, maybe Mac. Hey Apple, buy them, thats a real deal. They can beat any package if they get the financial support they desire... But first, Apple, invent the 3-5 button dual wheel mouse, being necessary for it... ;o)

The true reason why we have NO real usage of Macs here in the office is that its after all more expensive to have one, to use one. When you have to make decisions, especially in hard business times which we all encounter these days, you count your bugs. Very often I´ve been looking to the absolute high-end tools and hardware, and dreamed to own them, to give me and my collegues the artistical freedom we desire. BUT we had to buy cheaper things, compensate with compromises that we could pay for.

I have been looking for Edit quite some time. Bought one! Luckily one only. We have 5 Speed Razor systems running. If I bought 5 Edits instead I would have blown out >50,000 US$ for nothing! And remember, Edits last release forced people to switch from Matrox DigiSuite to Pinnacle Targa 3000, another >50,000 US$ investment coupled there...

I have been looking at Shake, got fine demos on exhibitions etc. Their sales rep. tried to get us there (we have some interesting customers they might like to see on their reels...) Anyway, we stayed with something else: Digital Fusion. Its half the price and can do almost the same. In fact, when looking at Digital Fusion 4, and the latest updates for 3.x like scripting, enhanced network renderin, soon full Linux support (both render engine & editing as far as I heard), there is nothing that would convince me to buy Shake, nor to buy a Mac too. Digital Fusion is probably the company taking over most of the NT Shake community, that doesn´t want to buy Macs. All other Shake-Hardliners will buy new computers if they can. Why not. We´ll see if Eyeon will enhance their "crossgrade" policy. Think of Eyeon being a company with a good background: DPS & Leitch, big names in video and televison industry, are behind Eyeon.

Again, all I want to say here is that it simply depends on you, the customer, which tool you want to buy. Its bad if something isn´t developed any longer, but its business nature, its reality. Some investments turn out to be bad, especially if a "last version" shows up bugs that hinder you from working and which no longer get fixed by upcoming updates. Thats the problem with the software industry, that no one is reponsible if something fails, shows bugs. You pay money for something that is sold "as is". Buy a car "as is". If the motor doesn´t turn, do you think you wouldn´t start a thread on the car company?

I have started to look at online forums BEFORE buying a new product. Especially the online forums where support people of a product I am aiming at are "available". Look at the Digital Fusion mailing list on Pigsfly. A great thanks to all the developers. We found bugs in Trial-versions of the next release we had not yet bought, and gee, think what they did? They fixed them before we even bought the version officially! :applause: THAT is something that let me decide to stay with a product. But its not a marriage for a lifetime. Developers may leave a company. If a software is too good, the development gets sticky, since there is not much you can add which poeple would go out and buy. To me, for instance, there is nearly no difference between Photoshop 5 to 7. Nothing of its news really touches things I use to "use".

Everyone of us has to decide which product to buy. Its like a democratic election: If you buy something, they get money and continue development. If you don´t buy it, they don´t. If everyone doesn´t buy an Apple or a Shake from Apple, they´ll stop selling it, definetly. Their share holders at last will force them to do so. But I doubt that will happen. But I also doubt it will happen that Mac turns into the ONLY "we can do any film project"-all-in-one-out-of-the-box-system.

I know of NO post production company being based mainly on Macs. Investments in PC based hardware have been made, and, not to forget, quite some of the apps being the market leaders today went there by something which is typical success story in the PC market: Hacked software! Tons of illegal copies are out which newbies get and start learning software. They might be students, and when they are finished and start their business, they simply BUY the apps they are used to. Thats one of the reasons why Apple is being so interested in the graphical educational markets. Since its their only chance to get into the market if poeple are used to "Macs" instead of "PCs". But as long as PCs are cheaper for "at home use", they loose parts of that on-going battle.

Thats just my personal observations, my personal experience.

I would by a Mac if all software I want runs there. But I stay with my PC as long as I don´t need to buy a new Mac to get back to work. And, after all, if I had a Shake 2.5 and a PC, I bet it would run a long time after the last day of Apples support. And then, when the day comes, a new decision is made.

:beer:

wgriffiths2000
08-24-2002, 10:04 PM
Hehe i like your post. I am happy there are alternet programs out there for all those people that want switch over. And i dont blame those people since you can almost buy two pc for the price of one mac. Apple needs to look at there marketing they realy need drop there prices. Though the school am i going to teaches shake and i have spoke to the teacher and he says there going to probaly switch over once it is released in canada but there running a mac and pc per station. I personaly have found that i dont give a shit what platform i am on so long i have shake hehe. I dont think that apple will disontinue shake any time soon and now maya 4.5 comming out on mac witch is sweet so long its not as buggy as 3.5 or what ever that version was.

Per-Anders
09-07-2002, 03:40 AM
something worth thinking about for anyone who's argued on this thread about mac/pc windows/osx/linux/unix/irix, or in fact if you've argued anywhere about this...

...no one gives a damn.

The client doesn't give a damn. The public don't give a damn. No one cares what your work is produced on, it could be made on a Pink Flamingo Type R7 for all they care.

If you are limited by the computer/operating system you use then that's your excuse for poor quality work.

Simple fact of life, no one cares what machine you use or what OS except you.

So here's something everyone should do... wise up. Learn all the OS' out there, learn every package going... in three years time it will be redundant.

Defend your computer all you want, the computer didn't give you creativity. But if you argue which machine is better in such a vehment way than you are giving the qudos, the credit for all your work to the machine... and you had no part in that.

Let's put it another way, do painters argue that "uh well i don't want to buy Liquitex because i don't want to be spending $$ on a nice plastic container to go with my paint? So i'll just stick with Windsor and Newton cos I know more people use this so I must be right". or did you ever hear any guitarist ever go "Yah well I bought this PRS because i didn't want to support the vast corporate pustule on the anus of humanity that is Gib$on."

...what was that? No? Hmm... Thought not.

So... it looks like Shake is changeing. It's no biggy, there wil always be something new coming along and no-one ever said that being on the leading edge was anything other than a sharp ride. Most of us will sit here with our copies of After Effects and some of us with AE and Combustion will produce better work than those of you who spent thousands on Shake. Getting cutting edge software doesn't make you into a cutting edge artist/production house. And somwhere along the line people seem to have forgotten that if you buy cutting edge stuff part and parcel of that is the fact that it will be no-longer cutting edge very soon. Remember Quantel Harry? Paintbox? You have to put the loss of softwares value into the equation. Of course it's what you get out of having that software that makes it a value add thing or not. So those that buy the new version of Shake and a nice shiny Apple G4 dual 1.25, fine, good on yeh! (Did any of you stop to think that the total cost of this system probably brings it close to the price of buying the seperate PC/Linux license so you get a free computer into the boot? Remember always try to look on the positive side of things). So that person that bought that system... even if Shake falls out of favour in say two years time, or even a year. If that person figured that it was worth their money because they would get more back, and they do through work. What have they lost if the system becomes redundant a couple of years down the line? All of those production houses I know who invested heavily in 3D Max because "Maya is just too expensive" and now they're all pissed at Discreet for not lowering the price of Max, and yet no-one there is going on about how this is the end of Max, the market changes, technology changes. The maxim of the high end... All things change, this is life, live with change, or die, a thing of the past.

For the rest of us who can't quite afford that level yet. We'll just have to produce as good work using tools that cost less, on the platform that we like (and can justify in our expense books) taking more time, but producing the same results as other people on completely different platforms (whos working on that particular platform completely fails to impact on the quality/ammount/value of our own work/life/etc). Oh and if you can't do that on your system...

...no one cares.

moovieboy
09-07-2002, 04:54 AM
Damn, mdme_sadie!

PER-FECT advice! Where were you when this thread needed you?! :D

-Tom

Per-Anders
09-07-2002, 06:40 AM
too busy learning packages i'm afraid (and giving out free help with getting surfaces right elsewhere... i hadn't even joined this forum till mid last week!!! or even visited cgtalk before someone im'd me on another board saying someone had refered me to them for help with a simple cg thing... gave help, took a look around and decided to stay).

anyhow growing up with freelance parents and becoming a freelancer myself has made me a jaded man to any excuse for lack of claimed talent and or results.

after all the client will only pay once for excuses.

(but i'm really not that hard a person, honest... really quite nice & soft and squishy once you get to know me) :wavey:

AxelM
09-07-2002, 08:57 AM
:bounce: Exactly :bounce:

Yes, mdme_sadie, you are right, and its almost the same what I said.

Everything, every piece of hard- and software is just the tool. Nothing, not even the most expensive, most high-end tool makes a good artist out of anyone. Never seen that, never heard that.

Yes, tools are and can be of great help, but it always comes down the operator. And you always have to justify how much you want to pay for your tools to have them "return the money". If I had to buy a Quantel OR After Effects, well, how many jobs do I have to make until "return of money" with the Quantel, how many with After Effects.

Its always that simple.

A good tool may just save you, the operator, valueable time.

BUT, the value of your valueable time must be compared with the extra value paid for the tool! You may sit there and do rotoscoping manually (or your employees or collegues) or you may have an expensive high end tool doing it more automatically.

I myself find human being around in the office more interesting that the "latest" machine/tool/software/hardware.

And finally, we sell "effects" and "results" (the ONLY thing that counts for the customer), not "Henry hours", "Inferno days" or "Shake moments"...

When I say "this effect will cost X,XXX$ complete", there is no questionaire on how many hours of work will go into. The question is only if someone is being cheaper, and if you can take the deadline. Nothing else.

Thumbs up :thumbsup: mdme_sadie :thumbsup:

Sincerely,


Axel

kem
09-21-2002, 06:17 PM
it's possible apple go to product 64bits process in the futur - the new powermac station with 64bit process - why not ? :rolleyes:

graphiouz
09-30-2002, 09:25 PM
hehe,, does a fight of religion, mean something to you all?
This is the religion war of the 2000 MAC vs PC cyber age!

anyway, i work in an Mac environment using AE, and im not that happy to hear that Mac are taking over VideoEditing/composeting Market,
for me Apple is just as bad as Microsoft when it comes down to running a buisness! and i think apple need to develop more power to their systems, and allow me/users to choose more what i want not what they think i want,.some one mentioned Monopoly?
and i think the prices of macs are ridiculas!
i get almost 3 (1gb dual Mp2000 AMD) for one "Dual power Mac" in sweden,

i use win2000 at home, so i have a pretty good gasp of what the two platforms go for, and im not gonna bash eighter of them,

Im hope Eyeon´s Digital Fusion4 gets alot of attention from WinIntel users! and that they stick with WinIntel!!!

CGTalk Moderation
01-13-2006, 05:00 AM
This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.