v8 Teaser Image

[FelixCat]

44 folks had visited that post, and no comments from anyone of them. I don´t know what to say aither...
Nice... i suposse...
FelixCat

[PaulS2]

It's certainly an acceptable image but isn't anything which can't already be done upon a quick inspection.

What really is missing is the time it took to render...and a comparison to the same scene done in V7.

Without that info, it's not very meaningful.

[BDismukes]

My first response was "wow" and upon further examination remained "wow" and some context would be nice but for now, a hearty WOW will have to do.

[DickM]

My first response was....ah....ok. What is this image showing? What am I seeing here that I could not have pulled off in v7?

[ediris]

My first response was....ah....ok. What is this image showing? What am I seeing here that I could not have pulled off in v7?
Mmm...maybe the noise in the overall image

[monday1313]

it's a great render, but i also was wondering how this was different from GI? the shadows of the leaves on the hood of the car on the left looked good, and the shadow under the shade at the top of the lamp looked pretty good.

can we see the same scene rendered with GI, and some stats for both. If photons speed up the render process, with maybe a subtle increase in quality that would be cool.

I'm also interested in the quadratic falloff. I also DP a lot of stuff, and use a lot of the same setups in CGI as I would on a set, so more realsitic lighting with less work is a plus too...

[rtrowbridge]

I'd also like to see stats on the image. I liked the way it looked, but want to know the time savings vs. 7.0.1. It's pretty much a moot point for me anyway right now. After nearly 22 years, I got caught in a "reduction of force" at the company I worked for. Until I find a new source of income, an upgrade is out of the question.


Ross

[DickM]

Maybe it's a teaser just for this reason.... maybe it uses the faster soft shadows, and photons, and part 2 of this teaser will be the render times.


Camera rendered this scene in HD in 12 seconds :applause:

[ediris]

Maybe it's a teaser just for this reason.... maybe it uses the faster soft shadows, and photons, and part 2 of this teaser will be the render times.


Camera rendered this scene in HD in 12 seconds :applause:

Maybe so, but what is the polycount in these scene? What is the output format? Gee is that too much to ask for. Off course i am upgrading but for what price i donot know yet,in the mean time tease me some more!!!

[monday1313]

12 seconds?

interesting. with all the cars and people and stuff there's gotta be atleast 500k polys in that scene..

[Vizfizz]

A response from Yon over at the EI forum:

The quality, control and ease of use of the new lighting models make it a new game. That test image uses only one light, with Photons and the new Soft Shadows. Realism and natural lighting have never been so easy to achive. The speed we’ve all come to expect from EIAS remains one of it’s strongest assets. Now you can add a whole new layer of flexibility and control to the way you paint your scene with light. I’m very excited by the new tools available in v8.

[arketype]

I just got permission to post this. (Thanks Brad!)

A "classic" rendering challenge for Maya and Mental Ray converted (and largely rebuilt in formZ) now rendered in EIAS v8!

This uses baked photons to "feed" the GI Engine for both primary and secondary points.
This makes reflections and refractions fast and accurate.

The full image was rendered at 3200x1800 in 15 minutes 22 sec on a Mac Pro using 6 Cameras via 'Rama.
Please note that all reflections are blurry RT.

Photons were baked using the "database" feature which adds about 3 minutes pre-render calculation time.

Full res image is here...
http://arketypedesign.com/Downloads/ClassRoom-V8-b22-3200.jpg

version 8 rocks! :buttrock:

Dave

[3dData]

One light. Wow!

[Vizfizz]

Very nice. Camera has now moved completely past that CG feel and obtained a level of render realism that I've only seen out of more "advanced" renderers. Congrats Igors and EITG.

[ediris]

Wow David what an image, i wonder which one will they choose for their cover art of the new V8?

[mike33]

Brian, Do you expect EIAS V8 to be used for the community project?

Thanks,

Mike

[Vizfizz]

I wouldn't mind that at all...we can continue to work it through in v7 and then hand off the file to a v8 owner who could light the scene.

[monday1313]

yeah, that's some nice lighting. all from one light source? really? :surprised

[scottfox]

Ok?.... Im gonna trust the comments from the visualisation guys on this one. I, personally, don't 'get it'. But if people like Brian and others say wow. Im gonna think there is something special to this 'upgrade'

[cjberg]

Ok?.... Im gonna trust the comments from the visualisation guys on this one. I, personally, don't 'get it'. But if people like Brian and others say wow. Im gonna think there is something special to this 'upgrade'

I would LOVE some explanation of the wow... in all honesty, I dont think I understand exactly what is being shown.

[monday1313]

Ok?.... Im gonna trust the comments from the visualisation guys on this one. I, personally, don't 'get it'. But if people like Brian and others say wow. Im gonna think there is something special to this 'upgrade'


In the image of the classroom, the lighting falloff just seems more volumetric. Plus the soft shadows and glare falloff from the lightsource seem more accurate. But if you can set all that up with one light and render just as fast or faster than before...that's pretty freakin good. I'm curious to see if there is a speed boost through transparencies and with reflections too, that would be much needed for me atleast...

[SFDD]

The classroom test render looks very nice; but, keep in mind: mental ray, vray, etc. have been able to do this one-light trick for quite a while. For EI's sake, I sure hope they're going to be offering something more than that. (For example, if they could do this in realtime, that would be nice!)

[ediris]

Well the same classroom scene was used as an example for a Mental Ray video tutorial and the image look very different form the one shown. I have it on a different laptop i will post it later.

EDIT: Here it is the same room with the same lamps,the light looks much better in this rendering.

Didnt we say we were gonna be more positive from now on, so what is up with that?WHat is the criticism about the rendering, is just a render, if you want something to be real than just get a camera and shoot it your self.

[monday1313]

with all due respect, the style of the lighting is completely different, it's like the 'camera' is stopped down to about f16. the EI render is wide open with the windows completely blown out and glare on the hotspots in the shot. You can't use these as a comparison...

mental ray and the like may have been able to do this for awhile...but I don't own those...so forgive me if I'm a little excited that the tools I do own are getting upgraded. :bounce:

Mental ray is also more expensive than free...

[arketype]

Hi Everyone.
I'll try to give a few more details about the classroom scene and the new features used.
The full expected feature list is here...
http://www.eitechnologygroup.com/news/comments/electric_image_animation_system_v8_beta_status_and_expected_features/

What is being shown here is the photon based lighting feature in v8, using a single area light. A spot light is being used for the sun's direct illumination (but without photons).

Adding photon lighting to a scene in EI v8 is handled through a single new tab in a light's info window. It is very quick and easy to setup.

These photons are emitted from the light source, and allowed to bounce around the scene multiple times, including "secondary points" which are shaded points seen in reflections and refractions. Photons also create nice, fast soft shadows.

This "photon map" can then be "baked" or saved for use in final rendering and flythrough animation without needing to be re-calculated. Again, this includes reflections and refractions. So when fed to the GI engine shading of secondary points is very fast.

This means very good rendering performance all around.

Without this photon feature the natural smooth shading on all of the surfaces of this scene would not be possible on an interior rendering. The bounced illumination from the photons can be customized with an editable curve. This is essentially like a gamma curve, or tone mapping control for editing the falloff of the bounced lighting.

There is also a "database" feature which applies an adaptive subdivision to all surfaces in order to optimize and smooth out noise in the photon map. This is very effective in eliminating noise from animations.

These are extremely useful additions and make Camera competitive with any other "modern" rendering engine on the market like those mentioned. Performance (in my opinion) is astounding. Images like these only take a few minutes to render, not hours.

If there are any specific questions about this scene in particular, I'll do my best to answer. :)

Dave

[ediris]

Thanks Dave, i say one more time wow and bravo for EITG. Is good that you use the same scene than for MR so people can see how fast and easy it is that is all i was trying to probe with my previous post not a software battle. I am UPGRADING.Count me in.

[arketype]

Thanks Dave, i say one more time wow and bravo for EITG. Is good that you use the same scene than for MR so people can see how fast and easy it is that is all i was trying to probe with my previous post not a software battle. I am UPGRADING.Count me in.

Hi Edgard.

Thanks for posting the MR image ;)

If one were to spend some time tweaking the lighting, I believe that the Ei rendering could be improved significantly. Certainly, the MR image you posted could be duplicated, if that was your goal. There are, however, literally hundreds of different example renderings of this scene to be found, each of which is unique.

This was simply a good project for testing the new features in v8, and I wanted to share ;)

[PaulS2]

Thanks for the info Dave...makes things much more real in terms of what is being worked on and offered. If the GI photons are anything like EI's caustics then this will be a great upgrade. EI's caustics are the best I have ever used.

Keep posting images with explanations and times.....simple images can convey much info.

[cjberg]

Thanks David, that makes things much clearer.

[jimjam]

I'm drooling!
Fast, baked and curve editable?
It's time to bring out my old interior projects.
Hook this up to Maya and you've got your Krypton! (Just a wild guess.)

Thanks for the great info, Dave.

JimMulcahy

[scott8933]

Well if the image is no better than what Maya and Mental Ray can already do, everyone's still free to bulk up on the number of licenses of -that- particular package set.

Let's see...cost of software, cost of workstations, cost of pipeline infrastructure, cost of the guy to run said infrastructure, cost of a couple mel programmers to run the damn thing, cost of a renderfarm... etc.

EI isn't Maya and never will be. I think after all these years people would have gotten the point of that, and where each package's strong suits are.

I'm not meaning to be a dick about this.

I'm just saying: if you want the look of Houdini rendered through Renderman, you know where to go to get it and what its going to cost. Time is money, EI is funky and you have to spend your time explaining to people why you like it better than Cinema, but that's just that.

What you alone can do with it is unparalleled in the right hands, and doesn't take nearly the time to get there. Plus it scales pretty well too... sure, it doesn't scale up to WETA size, but then I don't think anyone is delusional enough to think so.

[Vizfizz]

Hey Scott,

I understand that EI isn't Maya. I truly get that. I think it would be unrealistic to expect EI to ever make that jump. (And this isn't me trying to beat a dead horse) Each application's structure is completely different. Each has strengths. However when young, new users (and these are the folks we need to bring into the fold most) are looking at a package to buy or learn they have to ask themselves, "which program meets my current and potential future needs most?" or perhaps "Which one promises me the most growth?"

Dedicated specialists may select Maya for animation and EIAS for architecture, but honestly the broader market tends to choose an application that is versatile and capable of addressing more than one speciality. This is where the big 5 are beating EIAS into the ground. We have to ask, is EITG's rendering focus for EIAS serving the best interest of the company and its user base as a whole? While everyone may have their opinion here, I would have to point at EIAS' market share and say "no" the rendering focus stopped working years ago.

While I completely appreciate the beauty of Camera's rendering prowess through these teaser images and Dave's stellar explanation of photon mapping and the perceived benefits of said technologies, the company must expand past its rendering legacy and address new markets where it currently feels uncomfortable. That means focusing on tools that benefit the overall CG process most rather than finding new ways to make things render faster and prettier. Camera has always been reasonably competitive, its the rest of the system that I'm worried about.

[DickM]

I second Brian's words here. :applause:

And there are apps in between EI and Maya, so you don't need mel programmers, ITs and texture artists and so on. EI needs to realize this and start working on ANIMATOR! There are little things they could do that would really start bringing animator out of the dark ages. Poly selection sets for one. If we can't move polys, ok, at least give us the ability to select them and create poly sets. An UNBELIEVABLY useful tool!! Makes texturing soooo much easier as well as other things!

[scott8933]

For all I've said, I actually agree with this completely.

Its frustrating, in graphics - new users don't even know the existance of EI when everyone out of school wants to get into Cinema.

There's the source of my frustration maybe - not ranting and raving here to the people who already know.

And often I can't disagree. Integrated modeler and renderer, even If I think that app is lame. Hell, even LW, which I also love, doesn't have a truly integrated modeler and animator...

What's a guy going to do. Piss and moan on user forums I guess!

Hey Scott,

... However when young, new users (and these are the folks we need to bring into the fold most) are looking at a package to buy or learn they have to ask themselves, "which program meets my current and potential future needs most?" or perhaps "Which one promises me the most growth?"

.... That means focusing on tools that benefit the overall CG process most rather than finding new ways to make things render faster and prettier. Camera has always been reasonably competitive, its the rest of the system that I'm worried about.

[Vizfizz]

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with a split work paradigm (separate applications) even though it is a bit old in approach. As long as there are systems there to keep communication flowing between applications, you can work around it. LW and EI are old school players back when the split paradigm made more financial sense from a development point of view.

I know I "piss and moan" about EI's lack of animation features, but if I don't, who will? That's my "editorial" position on the subject and I'll keep pushing for it until I see progress made. It might annoy people and even make me a few enemies, but I'd care to say that I'm not making this declaration out of "I want". I'm also not fighting this out of some "ego" position either.

The rendering results of the teaser images are great. I'm really happy to hear that we now have photon mapping and baking capabilities that will speed rendering up. I congratulate the Igors on an impressive job well done.

Can we move on now? Can we tend to other parts of the system that need attention? Or will we continue this trend of giving Camera first rights to everything? Finish 64 bit Camera and call it a day ok? Multithreading can wait. Striping and Renderama for multi proc rendering isn't quite as elegant, but it works.

[scott8933]

I meant 'twas I that was pissing and moaning.

I know what you mean... I just look over it. For now at least. I actually have great hope for what is going on over at the LW forum with their CORE release. Everyone seems to have high expatiations.




I know I "piss and moan" about EI's lack of animation features, but if I don't, who will? .

[Vizfizz]

Well LW's CORE could be a game changer for EITG. Roth, Granger, and Babb are all ex-EI personnel now running other 3D companies. (LW and C4D). Their approaches to their applications are systematically targeting 3D users who are looking for a diverse mid-range application that not only produces good imagery, but can animate too. Its interesting to note that neither of these two applications' renderers (at least in the past...not so much today) looked as good as Camera, but interestingly enough that didn't seem to make much of a difference in these two picking over the EI user base. C4D proves this even more so than LW.

LW's CORE is likely a rendering enhancement of some sort and it would make sense for their company because their animation and modeling foundations are already in place. If CORE opens up the the LW rendering engine to outside applications then we'll really be seeing things go full circle.

[scottfox]

I agree with Brian and others who see Camera already well positioned among the competition. I\We need animation features that will make EI a compelling addittion to an animators toolbox. "replacing" someones 3d app of choice is not a realistic goal for EI. Those of us who research and keep up on basic 'trends' in hardware realize that rendering speed will pretty soon be a non issue in 3d, or greatly reduced as a 'production\creative' reason to use a given package. Its inevitable, but also closer than some may think. Camera is a gem. Animation capabilities are a MUST, for EI to focus on to survive. I even agree, BEFORE a multithreaded camera.
(let the dramatic new processors shake out over the next 3 - 12 months before putting any effort into making Camera MP)

my2 cents.

[scott8933]

I never used to give LW much of a chance. I learned it back in the Play debacle as a contingency: I looked at what was on the mac at the time that was in a similar price range and user base. Despised Cinema's interface and didn't consider the userbase high enough (at the time LW ruled the broadcast world) so I went with LW.

Never used it for a job though - just at an occasional portal to convert models. Modeler was too weird and I knew FormZ backwards enough to use that as a competent modeler. And of course EIM was genius back when it was alive.

Always kept up my license on LW though, just so it wouldn't be too expensive a jump to go from 6 to 9 should I decide to... and over the years, I've become -extremely- impressed with what Lightwave's camera is capable of, and the speed at which it achieves it. Damn near the level of EI, even better if you want to use their funky "fancy-cam" settings that have the usually useless DOF settings and such that I have no use for.

Too bad LW's animator remains the oddball it ever was (to this EI native).

But I still can't stand Cinema - I'm probably just being stubborn and unreasonable/irrational over it. But oh well. I'll have to be dragged kicking and screaming to really learn that app. I'll sooner go Blender or Houdini before I willingly learn C4D.

Call me a zealot I guess...


.. Its interesting to note that neither of these two applications' renderers (at least in the past...not so much today) looked as good as Camera, ...

[ediris]

Well Camera is missing some nice features for example a real world and preview on screen of its DOF for once, a Camera alignment to path option.
Scott8933 EIAS should learn form its competition and face reality and get moving with aniamtion tools.I like how LW included several plug ins in their core.

[scott8933]

Though I've nobody to preach to, I've long preached to myself that EI should learn from AE in this regard. A core app that's extended immensely by plugins.

For a while, Paralumino almost seemed on this path - they had what could have been the beginning of a skeleton of a whole integrated plugin based modeling system.

Granted it was skeletal and took some squinting to see how it could work - but I think it could have. In a way, it would have even been a corkscrew direction toward a more modal based system. Though still an overlay on top of the permanently linear timeline, it would have been a pretty odd duck.

Anyway, was all not meant to be, I guess.


Well Camera is missing some nice features for example a real world and preview on screen of its DOF for once, a Camera alignment to path option.
Scott8933 EIAS should learn form its competition and face reality and get moving with aniamtion tools.I like how LW included several plug ins in their core.

[Vizfizz]

Well hopefully the Igors will do the right thing and either integrate the Para plugs into Animator or bring them back to the market through a different distributor. (Whether it be EITG or someone else). Until then I wait patiently for their return. All I care about is getting those capabilities back out to the public. Differences or not, those plugins were the foundation of something greater for Animator.

[juanxer]

I'd say the most significant and inmediate feature EICamera needs to adquire, image quality-wise, is 16/32bpc output.

Yes, there is 64bit processing and multiprocessing too (being at that, the trendy buzzword to cover for in 2010 will be GPGPU acceleration), and anyway these are about doing bigger and faster but no better. So one hopes that v.8 means EITG narrows Camera development down to singly obtaining higher bitdepth output and concentrates on better ways for us to feed that stupendous Camera through Animator.

[jimjam]

Could Lightwave CORE be the EI rendering engine for lightwave?
The timing is suspicious, LW and EI are neighbors in Texas, and LW is run by EI's founders...

JimMulcahy

[DickM]

Highly doubt it! There's some bad blood there so to speak :argh:

[cjberg]

Highly doubt it! There's some bad blood there so to speak :argh:

really? Is there?

[scott8933]

No, very unlikely. Just some very good online marketing by NewTek.

Yesterday, when the announcement letter was supposed to go out, their online forum peaked at like 400 viewers, the thread itself was getting updated so fast you couldn't keep up with it, and other LW forums had similar stories. I think the thread I was watching must have hit 500 responses before I gave up on it (besides, the email announcement did arrive on time, and it just said to wait for a live announcement from Jay Roth on Wed.) It was quite effective. Like watching a smaller but quicker and more concentrated version of the viral that went on for Cloverfield. A real marketing home run, hopefully whatever they've cooked up can hold up to the hype or the users will probably all converge on LW HQ and burn the place!

Given the clues, apparently there will be some Python support, and the whole "core" thing has everyone assuming that LW10 will finally integrate Modeler and Layout.

But then who knows. Cloverfield finally came out and was pretty good - but hardly the masterpiece that all the online and viral marketing had everyone primed for...

Incidentally - founders who may be watching this thread - being neighbors and still letting bad blood get in the way is just plain dumb in this current business climate. Hopefully its not like that, unless someone else wants to go 6 feet under or be eaten by Autodesk and slowly pissed away like some of their other decent apps they've swallowed over the years.

Have a Texas barbecue and make friends again! Like I said before, who else will there be to fight off the onslaught of AutoMayaMax and Cinema?

Could Lightwave CORE be the EI rendering engine for lightwave?
The timing is suspicious, LW and EI are neighbors in Texas, and LW is run by EI's founders...

JimMulcahy

[plsyvjeucxfw]

AutoMayaMax

LOL!

Fortunately I've recently discovered Carrara. It's looking like that soft will meet my animation needs. Any high poly background stuff can go to EI via .fbx and the foreground and background can get comped together in A.E.

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