Brad's news for V8

[A.C. Farley]

Thanks Rick!

-AC

[DickM]

Disappointing to say the least :rolleyes:

[scottfox]

Architects must be thrilled. I love EI so Ill try to be nice here.

How does this help me animate any better, or faster?

Oh well....

[PaulS2]

Definitely a render intensive upgrade - something I can always use....looks like EI will evolve based on what the Igors are happy doing.

I'm glad the raytraced lights have been worked on....the previous version, when used with glass, was completely un-useable because of dismal speed.

I'll be curious to see how fast they have become with glass in a scene now.

I think the biggest missing feature still remains no multi-processor camera. That would be so useful.

[DickM]

Since it's mainly render enhancements, this should not be a 1.0 upgrade. EIAS 7.5 sounds right and fair. I thought a 1.0 was a big update with a large amount of features added to the application as a whole. Some contextual menu stuff and an added preference feature hardly means new animation tools. :rolleyes:

The strength map stuff, well, the fact it doesn't say "access to initial Bind maps" is concerning! :argh:

I just can't believe that there are no new animation tools in an application called "ANIMATOR" :eek:

[cjberg]

The feature list of V8 is an Arch-Viz dream... what about "animation"? I know there are always people unhappy when a feature list is released. Just tired of getting socks for xMas. Would be nice to get a toy once in a while.

I do see the weightmap painting tools listed and are the jewels on the socks, but dont see anything addressing the underlying issues. Alonzo hinted there are wmp improvements, I would love to see some hint of this, as it was not mentioned in the feature set.

[plsyvjeucxfw]

I'm with you guys about the Animation feature thing. However, I'm also done with complaining about it. EI will progress the way it will. Period.

[Vizfizz]

>SNIP<


You know.. I'm removing my own comment because there's just no point in bringing up more animosity. EITG will go the direction it chooses to go. I've been vocal enough about the direction they need to head. I don't need to stir the pot again.

As for everyone... I would just simply say lets not turn this into another battle ground thread. It doesn't help anyone. If you're for the upgrade, buy it. If not, save your money. Its that simple. EITG can learn whether or not this was a wise decision on their part through your purchasing actions.

[DickM]

However, I'm also done with complaining about it.

I'm also done with upgrading it. EIAS has officially lost a user that will continue to upgrade. :cry:

Ps. Barring some miracle :sad:

[summers]

No CA tools = no update :sad:

[ediris]

Well i dont get evryone complaining at this point of the game. We all knew EIAS is done with upgrading Animator. Their main focus is rendering.
Tesla seems to be their Animator baby. How many years will it pass just take a look at Luxology slowly entering into the Animation realm.

I think a better I/O is the key for this whole thing. Buying models from other companies is not an issue , bringing them in is.

[gyro]

As i'm doing a lot of arch viz at the moment i'm happy enough.

DaveW

[DickM]

Yes Dave, this looks like a great update for Archi peeps. Definitely!

Don't think it's enough to justify the 1.0 upgrade though.

[juanxer]

Product presentation would be another target for this (I am beginning to get into that these days, coming from a simplistic MoGraph background, and I am finding it not to be an easy subject matter).

My guess is we are to wait for the betatesters' descriptions and samples to see of how much benefit this new version is.

Questions to ask EITG about would be pricing, how Tesla does effect this release (will it arrive on time, combo pricing, possible Tesla discounts if it arrives later), and if we get mousewheel support at last (the best workflow enhancer of all when you have a really long list of objects in the Project window :D )

Also, where does EITG go from here, EIAS development-wise. I don't mean by that large overarching "conquer the world from our underwater volcano secret base" plans but what achievable discrete targets are to be addressed in v8.5 and v.9. My guess would be higher bit-depth levels output to make for a more rounded renderer, seeing that the Paralumino tools get integrated in some fashion and coming to a decision about Illustrator import after Tesla arrives (we all know the arguments, but Tesla seemed to be the pivotal factor for the higher-ups, so...), more helpful little things here and there, and some big one, one hopes.

[Vizfizz]

Also, where does EITG go from here, EIAS development-wise. I don't mean by that large overarching "conquer the world from our underwater volcano secret base" plans but what achievable discrete targets are to be addressed in v8.5 and v.9. hopes.

Everyone has their wish list for feature sets (and we certainly don't need another one of THOSE threads), but a lot of v8.5 or v9's future features will be completely limited by how much money v8 generates. (Tesla will have to fend for its self with its own sales) There are some strong enhancements for Camera in v8 including base infrastructure for 64bit, but its not there yet, so that will have to be completed and multi-threaded Camera still has to be addressed. You can bet those two will hog v9's resources to some degree.

Well i dont get evryone complaining at this point of the game. We all knew EIAS is done with upgrading Animator. Their main focus is rendering.
Tesla seems to be their Animator baby.

This has not yet been determined. Brad has made it clear that he has no intention on dropping Animator. It only appears that way since its so low on the upgrade totem pole. Reality is it will take years to give Tesla animation capabilities. Animator has to fill the animation gap until the final determination is made (if its ever made to go that direction at all). The question is how long can you keep ignoring a complete set of users? What's the attrition rate? How many NEW users will Tesla bring? Will focusing on rendering keep the company afloat?

Tesla is a must. EITG needs a new application that is modern that can be approached without any prior histories. Yes its based off EIM, but Kish is also doing something new. Its completion and release is critical for the company and to complete the system as a whole.

The upgrade debate was always between Camera and Animator. EITG elected to play on its rendering strengths rather than address its animation weaknesses. Plus the idea of having an enhanced Camera coupled with Tesla is an attractive future marketing tool to get those programs into new hands.

Will this strategy work? Was it a better idea to focus on Camera over Animation? Difficult to tell. (You're only as strong as your weakest application imho) A more balanced approach between Camera and Animator should have been implemented, but developer resources kind of made that determination for Brad automatically.

[juanxer]

(and we certainly don't need another one of THOSE threads)
Sorry for that, sorry for that!!! :p :D

So getting back to short term thingies: any idea of when Brad and co. will release some more info-candy? Pricing, early purchasers special offers, UI and feature demo pics, etc.

[Vizfizz]

Your guess is as good as mine on that question. I'd guess in the next couple of weeks.

[cjberg]

So getting back to short term thingies: any idea of when Brad and co. will release some more info-candy? Pricing, early purchasers special offers, UI and feature demo pics, etc.

"Posted by Brad on 01/12 at 08:56 AM
Currently we are finishing up the last of the bug fixes for version 8 of the Electric Image Animation System. We hope to start selling version 8 within the next couple weeks."

so, My guess would be a couple weeks after the 12th... so near the 26th... which is tomorrow...

Cj

[dwu67]

Sounds like a pretty solid set of features. My credit card is ready.

You just can't please everyone at once. Life does not work that way. Hope they make lots of $ on this and keep up the good work!

Wonder if the new rendering engine can handle a 10+ mil poly car.

-David

[ediris]

Sounds like a pretty solid set of features. My credit card is ready.

You just can't please everyone at once. Life does not work that way. Hope they make lots of $ on this and keep up the good work!
-David

Mmm... well David ¨solid¨is too big of an adjective. True you cant please everyone but the user base which is mainly doing motion graphics at these time.

I hope they make trillions of dollars with the v8 so they can include OBJ2FACT and Paralumino plg ins. Until then i will keep use other tools.

[splitpoint]

I guess it depends on how much this upgrade will be. If it's a $199 upgrade I'd do it just to support EITG. If it's $399 I won't be participating because the new features just aren't worth it for me. The only feature that interests me this time around is the rotoscope mapping type changes.

[Vizfizz]

I guess it depends on how much this upgrade will be. If it's a $199 upgrade I'd do it just to support EITG. If it's $399 I won't be participating because the new features just aren't worth it for me. The only feature that interests me this time around is the rotoscope mapping type changes.

This is pretty much what I mean by selling "rendering" as your product. These kinds of features are nominally useless when the access point into those features (Animator) is not competitive in its primary function against what's out there or if the entire technical pipeline to the renderer is exclusive. Now if Camera were accessible to outside applications other than Animator, that would be a different story. These features would be awesome.

Accessibility is why renderers like Mental Ray, V-Ray or Renderman sell. What's the point of Camera being competitive with these kinds of renderers when you don't offer the accessibility or the infrastructure to other applications?

Photon Mapping, OpenEXR, Fast Soft shadows and items like these are all "high performance / low usage" features when examined against the grand scheme of CG. They're nice to have because of the buzz word feature and the beauty they can contribute to an image...plus we can gloat by saying "We have Photon Mapping too and it works better than yours", but ultimately they're only there to enhance the final output. To me its like putting the cart before the horse or offering leather seats when you don't have any wheels on your car yet.

[DickM]

I agree with you Brian. Now if this was all being done in preparation for making Camera a standalone renderer to be used with Maya, XSI, C4D, then great! I still think Camera would be a great SELL as far as that goes. But it's all pretty frustrating when the only path to Camera is through the abandoned "Animator".

[Vizfizz]

I wouldn't say abandoned...I'd say "under appreciated".

[FelixCat]

"under appreciated"... i feel a bit like that.
Oh my!
FelixCat

[PaulS2]

It's just part of being an EI user.

There are enough good things about EI which make it viable to continue using for many - but enough gaping holes which make it quite frustrating to use in certain cases.

For me personally, it has as much animation control as I need...even more than I need. But I do very little animation and it's strictly flying logo type of stuff. I use it primarily for illustration and product visualization.

Thankfully I have EIM which brings in perfect meshes into EI from it and Rhino - without it, that's a different story.

For hard body, simple animation and illustration it's great...won't win over many new users though in it's current state. Until Tesla comes out I think any money made for EI will be from existing users. If these are the features existing users need then everything will go ok I guess. Depending on how many users there are......I hope they make some money.

I'm looking forward to seeing what Tesla might be - that's going to be the future of EI if there is going to be one.

[scott8933]

Personally I'll continue to use EI and buy every upgrade and plugin that comes out - professionally I've been forced to use that turd Cinema 4d with its horrid "interface" but that's another issue all together... Maxxon got all the motion graphics people on board, and so that's the program of the week right now (sorry Maya, things just didn't work out).

The thing of it is - with these updates - you just have to take Electric Image for what it is.

Its like owing a Datsun 240-Z - you bored and stroked it out to a 3-litre engine. You've got titanium pistons and rings, you've got a crank-fired ignition system, you've got a custom injection setup and an intercooled turbo, blow-off valve, nitrous tank in the back, the aluminum tranny with the racing gear ratios, lightened flywheel, and beefed up clutch. A 4:11 limited slip diff that you had to spend an arm and a leg on and came shipped direct from japan. Its fast as hell, and can take pretty much anything out there.

You show it off to your buddy one day - and all he can say is "just looks like an old z-car to me..."

[DickM]

professionally I've been forced to use that turd Cinema 4d with its horrid "interface" but that's another issue all together

Well if C4D's interface is horrid for you, then you may wanna stick with the archaic EI gui. :rolleyes:

Not to continue a flame war but C4D's (v10 and on) interface is extremely elegant and well thought out and......AND CUSTOMIZABLE, unlike the archaic EI. I only say this cause EI needs....NEEDS an interface overhaul badly. And it would be very wise to take pages from applications like C4D and XSI that are in this millennium :banghead: Not 1990

[splitpoint]

I'm not a fan of C4d's interface either. EI could use an update but hopefully EITG wouldn't look to C4d as an example.

[Jens C. Möller]

Thankfully I have EIM which brings in perfect meshes into EI from it and Rhino - without it, that's a different story.

I have recently discovered, that OBJ output fom Rhino via O2F is a far more convenient route than via EIM, since tesselation has really improved in Rhino4 and the objects come into EI very clean, correct naming and with UV spaces that can be done in Rhino.

I use EIM less and less because it gives me too much headaches. For me Rhino is it, definately.

Jens

[cjberg]

Well if C4D's interface is horrid for you, then you may wanna stick with the archaic EI gui. :rolleyes:

Not to continue a flame war but C4D's (v10 and on) interface is extremely elegant and well thought out and......AND CUSTOMIZABLE, unlike the archaic EI. I only say this cause EI needs....NEEDS an interface overhaul badly. And it would be very wise to take pages from applications like C4D and XSI that are in this millennium :banghead: Not 1990

Yes yes, C$D is all that and a bag of chips... May I suggest, that the GUI of EI is part of what makes it simple to use. Changing that to make it more modern has the chance to make things not as usable. I understand that there are improvements in GUI design, but you have to admit that it is a simple app to use. AND, that is beneficial.

[DickM]

I agree with a lot of what you say Cj. But there comes a point when simplicity becomes lacking.

There are features that bring ease of use with out changing EI completely. Like hot keys(customizable), which I consider Gui orientated. Having panes instead of separate windows. I think EI is the last app to still have 4 separate windows. Panes allows for VERY quick maximizing and minimizing veiwports of interest. Scroll wheel support. These are just a few of the features from C4D, Maya, and Silo that I love. EI has yet to adopt them, which slows down my workflow. Feels like I'm working in slow motion sometimes in EI.

[cjberg]

I agree with a lot of what you say Cj. But there comes a point when simplicity becomes lacking.

There are features that bring ease of use with out changing EI completely. Like hot keys(customizable), which I consider Gui orientated. Having panes instead of separate windows. I think EI is the last app to still have 4 separate windows. Panes allows for VERY quick maximizing and minimizing veiwports of interest. Scroll wheel support. These are just a few of the features from C4D, Maya, and Silo that I love. EI has yet to adopt them, which slows down my workflow. Feels like I'm working in slow motion sometimes in EI.

If I were on the GUI team for EI, I would not be looking at what other apps have... I would be looking at what the user experience should be... that conversation is a huge one... then would look at what tools make that user experience

FZ also has 4 separate windows... I prefer the windows to panes, but is just the way I work... I always hoped that EIAS used an EIM style of GUI... I always thought it was fast... not so modern anymore.

[DickM]

FZ also has 4 separate windows...

Ew!!! Forgot about that one ;)

Ceej, why on earth do you like separate windows?

[cjberg]

Ew!!! Forgot about that one ;)

Ceej, why on earth do you like separate windows?

The biggest reason... I can expand 1 window fast and see my work better... then return it fast also... no keyboard shortcut, no menu, just a button on the window I am working in... it is especially helpful when working on these larger more complex jobs where there are layers of overlapping data...

[monday1313]

programmable hot keys would be a real help.

[DickM]

Oh Ceej, separate windows are so much slower having to navigate your mouse up to the expand and minimize buttons in each window. Quick "space bar" hit with panes is faster every time. :buttrock: although it being "customizable" hot keys, you can make that 1 key anything you want :)

I understand it's what your used to though.

[plsyvjeucxfw]

I can expand 1 window fast and see my work better

This semester I'm taking an Adobe After Effects class. Hover your mouse over ANY pane and tap the tilde key "~" and it maximizes. Tap again and it minimizes. Each and every pane! Faster than you can imagine.

Also try scaling key frames in After Effects. Highlight to select, hold the ALT/OPTION key and drag the end key frame, nice and easy. Try the same in EI. Good luck.

Select a layer and with a keyboard short cut twirl down the triangle to reveal any individual parameter you want to adjust, no hunting through a million entries to find the one you need. Also with a keyboard short cut twirl down to reveal only KEYFRAMED or EDITED parameters.

Select KeyFrames and with a click, or via keyboard short cut, set the interpolation to Ease IN, OUT, or IN and OUT.

In the graph editor pull the Tangent Handles to WEIGHT the interpolation into or out of the key frame. BREAK the tangents to create abrupt changes of direction.

EI renders fast, but for work flow and animation, it is sorely lacking. Also, it is lacking despite several years of user requests that they alter their path. It has become obvious that they are not going to change. Animator HAS been abandoned. That's fairly obvious, not from what they're saying, but from their ACTIONS.

Tesla may mature to become everyone's dream application. I hope so, because none of the alternatives out there appeal to me. Today however, Tesla remains Vaporware (Promiseware?).

And sorry, but I'm not an Architect, I'm an Animator. Despite the above, I'm not complaining. Not really. I said I wouldn't do that, as it's pointless. I'm just hoping that Tesla launches soon, is successful, and that we'll get an idea when we can see it become EI's flagship program.

And no, version 9 will not be an Animation update. That's dead. Stop beating the horse.

[gdogfunk]

Well, I certainly hope Animator is not dead! I bought Pixels3D years ago and went through the learning curve, got to the point where I could do some cool things, then they re-wrote the application and it was never the same again. Not to mention shadows just never worked in the program...so I bought EI 5.0 after having played with the Foolkit version. I have upgraded to v6, 6.5, and now v7.x.x.

I don't like the idea of buying software, going through the learning curve and then having the application go South (again). I bought the full monty version of C4D (minus mograph) over a year ago and I have hardly touched it. Why? Well, I have been avoiding the depressingly long learning curve to get myself up to speed to the point where I can now fly in EI. I have used it for some things and even imported fully rigged mo-capped characters from Motion Builder, but the render quality and texture system is just not to my liking. While powerful, quite frankly, it sucks (in my opinion) compared to what I get out of EI. I sure wish I could bring in mo-capped rigs hassle-free into EI and just let it go...

I have read and followed along to all of the threads concerning V8, and I voted for the CA tool improvements. I read the list of V8 features and unless they are renamed as a different feature, I don't see anything from the voting poll in the feature list. Maybe bug fixes aren't listed as features, but it would be nice to see a note that YES CA tools are now working properly.

Anyway, that's where I stand. I use and love EI to this day, but man, I really want to use EI for more advanced CA work. Especially after years of building a render farm for that very purpose!

I do hope V9 will be a major Animator overhaul....hell, even mouse scrolling up and down and side to side in the project window would rule. Not to mention having EI actually FIND all the associated project files if I move a project folder to another drive.

-Ryan

[Vizfizz]

Animator is not dead.

[ReginaldThomasJr]

Animator is not dead.

Dead? I hope not. I've used Electric Image since version 2.5!!! The only thing that keeps me coming back is ease-of-use, speed and all that upgrade money.

[Vizfizz]

Reginald...

No need to worry. Animator isn't going anywhere. It just hasn't been getting the level of upgrade attention the other applications have been getting...and folks are interpreting that negatively...and I understand that. While its my opinion that Animator really needs its own shot in the arm with upgrades, we just don't know when that will happen. That's the frustrating part. Brad is fully aware of the situation.

[A.C. Farley]

Yeah, I don't see what all the bad attitude is about. It's pretty much the same as usual. If you've worked with EI and their evolution long enough, everything seems normal. EI has a lot of power. Animator, I mean. That app is a little tank. It'll do whatever you need to produce studio level output, one way or another. That may be why it's so slow to change. It's really very good. It's had larger numbers of users in the past, but there's still a lot to recommend it so there's a solid core community still. And it doesn't require a stellar budget to get involved and set up as big or small a render farm as you can manage.

[Jens C. Möller]

I second that.

Jens

[cjberg]

Yeah, I don't see what all the bad attitude is about. It's pretty much the same as usual. If you've worked with EI and their evolution long enough, everything seems normal. EI has a lot of power. Animator, I mean. That app is a little tank. It'll do whatever you need to produce studio level output, one way or another. That may be why it's so slow to change. It's really very good. It's had larger numbers of users in the past, but there's still a lot to recommend it so there's a solid core community still. And it doesn't require a stellar budget to get involved and set up as big or small a render farm as you can manage.

Dunno about bad attitude, but disappointment... waiting to see if the weightmap system performs better, but without note of change to the underlying structure, I am not hopeful.

It doesnt mean the app is no good, just means the tools I need are not there...

[scott8933]

Yes, actually my comparison was meant to be backwardly complimentary. I had a similar car, way back when. And it would always crack me and my buddies up when some joker in a hopped up Camaro or Mustang would take on "that little jap car" and I'd eat them alive.

It isn't about the tools you think you have, or even the tools you do have at your disposal but can't use the right way - its about putting together the right combination the right way. EI, for all its quirks and missing conveniences - I can still go into a room full of C4d or Maya clowns and get my job done before they're even done setting up their rig.

I've never seen EI as a tank - more of an F1. Let Max or Maya be the tank, do anything as long as you have a room full of shader coders and script Mel writers. EI might be hard to shift without spinning out, but once you get fast at it - hands down its just damned fast. For a one-man shop you just can't beat it. If Dreamworks or WETA doesn't see how to fit it into a "pipeline" (and man I hate that term) then too bad, it just isn't that tool. Those guys want a pipe wrench, where EI is a scalpel.

I second that.

Jens

[ediris]

Mmm.. there is too much fanboyism here!! these is not helping EITG just want to point out that there is a lot of software out there not even mentioned in a spot where the studios uses propietary software,is about the artist and is brush, sometimes we might have a brush in particular that we feel more familiar with.
I feel more safe using other software cause they had a better preview or they deal with its motion in an advanced way. I will use more often EIAS if they could solve the I/O problems.If they had a master material where you are able to assign a texture to multiple clones of the same object. This is not doable in EIAS.
I guess for architects dont matter about UV textures. EIAS is a beauty when texturing is not an issue.

[monday1313]

yep, as a one man shop, I can honestly say, if animator wasn't so easy to learn, I'd still be driving a truck for a living. I literally read the entire manual once before buying it. (with no 3d experience what so ever) and between that and the forums (thanks everyone), I managed to get good enough at this to actually make a nice living from it...does it have everything i need? no, but unless you can afford houdini, or a full seat of maya and real flow plus all the render nodes (which would cost almost as much as houdini). you're going to need more than one app anyways. Atleast I can have as many render nodes as I have electrical outlets to support for free...

I guess the other low cost alternative is to try and make some kind of sense out of blender...
but good luck with that if you have work to do in the meantime. and as for learning maya, I've downloaded the PLE of maya a number of times and still haven't had time to do more than figure out how to move around in the ortho windows...

the point of my rambling is that for less than a grand you can be making broadcast quality renders under broadcast time constraints, with a relatively short learning curve, a tight knit group of users who are really good at helping each other out, and still have money left over for other apps like Zbrush and Vue(and if you want to talk about upgrade rip-offs, take a look at what's happening over in E-on land...yikes...). So while there are things that bug me about EIAS, there are many more things that make me very much interested in continuing their growth, like keeping the company afloat for one...

[scott8933]

Mmm.. there is too much fanboyism here!!

Sticking with EI through all its ups and downs tends to bring out defensiveness in the few remaining hangers-on.

Funny, I feel no such loyalty toward any other piece of software I've used so long. I'd give up AfterEffects in a heartbeat if something better came along. Photoshop, Illustrator...Meh, even using Macs I traded in for PC's a few years back and didn't care.

But give up EI??? Unpossible!!

[Vizfizz]

I know...what's up with that? lol. Despite my rants on improving Animator I'd never take it out of my toolbox lineup.

[ediris]

[QUOTE=scott8933

But give up EI??? Unpossible!![/QUOTE]
No i dint mean it these way off course i will love to use EI more often but for now time is an issue, not being able to view my texturing is crucial for me. Just texturing a leave and duplicating it with a few bones apply to it is imposible. Well maybe is just me but try this in your spare time and we will talk later.

I dont use too much GI so these upgrade is meaningless. But i will support the company.

[Vizfizz]

TripleD's Steamroller is next in line to be ported to UB... this would help your texturing issues for standard projection methods.

[ediris]

Thanks Brian,
One plug in i am looking to purchased is Placer but i dont know its stability with Animator.I have heard is too buggy but that is always depends in so many factors.

[cjberg]

Thanks Brian,
One plug in i am looking to purchased is Placer but i dont know its stability with Animator.I have heard is too buggy but that is always depends in so many factors.

PD has it's quirks... I am sure it is better with the UB version, but is indispensable with EIAS

[scottfox]

count me as a one man gang with EI leading the way. The more I spend in time and money trying to learn more 'industry accepted' apps, the more work I get from clients with me using EI. The more one can simply use the tools available to him to create compelling imagery, the more likely someone will be willing to pay for that product.

Im with EI for the long run.... I wonder if, or when, I ever will get up to speed on these other apps. I guess the longer it takes me to learn those tools, probably means SuperNova is pretty busy. :)

[ReginaldThomasJr]

Do UB plug-ins work on the PC?

[juanxer]

Do UB plug-ins work on the PC?I'm afraid not: they are Mac-only. An "Universal Binary" is a single container for multiple versions of OS X-based executable code, such as Intel Mac-targetted, PPC Mac-targetted, even subtlier variants. NeXTStep (OS X' ancestor) got to support up to four or five different microprocessor types. Being apps able to be launched from the network instead of from your local drives, this style of packaging all the executables in a single app file simplified things a lot.

Funnily enough, in that era you could run NeXTStep executables in Windows by licensing and installing the Windows runtime version of NeXTStep instead of the bootable OS version. When Apple produced OS X, it dropped most of its multiplatform nature.

[ReginaldThomasJr]

Do more people use Electric Image on Mac or PC?

[gdogfunk]

I'm on a Mac, but use a mixed farm. I have used EI on the PC, but it once came close to eating a file and the Mac saved it, so I've used the Mac ever since (better all around anyway).

Ryan

[Jens C. Möller]

Yes, I have also used it on both. But the MAC side *feels* better. Can't say exactly why though.

I had crossplatform issues when rendering in a mixed farm. obviously the .tif textures shaded brighter on the PC renders. I guess some godamn embedded "color correction profiles" or gamma issues... what the hack.

Now I am glad that I have 3 8core Macs and a some older Macs that make a pretty decent all MAC renderfarm. And when I need windows I use bootcamp or parllels. But I have only few issues with networkrendering on the MAC.

Jens

[splitpoint]

I'm using XP64 here. I've used mac in the past but have had a lot of problems with EIAS plugins on Mac so I switched a couple of years ago.

[Jens C. Möller]

Quite funny, don't you think? :beer:

Jens

[rtrowbridge]

Vista Home Premium here. EIAS is the closest I've come to using a Mac in years. It took a little bit to get used to the different interface, but am quite happy with it now. I render with two cores regularly on my laptop (I either use a cooling fan or prop up the back end to keep temperatures reasonable).

You're right, Jens. It is funny. To each their own...

Ross

[Jens C. Möller]

Yes, it seems to me that both sides seem to work quite good, and its only a matter of personal preference than real technical issues (beside some mixed renderfarm quirks of course) to choose this over that.

Jens

[Jens C. Möller]

Maybe we come up with an O2F for windows finally ;)

Jens

[rtrowbridge]

Now that would be nice. The best I've been able to come up with is opening the object in Accutrans, then saving it as individual obj files, then those files are converted to fbx files with FBX Generator. Finally, open one object in Animator and create a new project, and then merge the rest of the fbx files into the first one. Once the UV maps are reapplied, things generally work out pretty good. I was happy to discover that I didn't have to open each object into its own project before merging.

Ross

[Jens C. Möller]

Wow, what a workflow... phew

Jens

[scott8933]

As always, I'd point you towards PolyTrans - it will save you that intermediate step of going through FBX. It does a fine job of bringing in most everything and saving out Facts with usable UV's intact nearly every time. And PT works just fine and fast with bootcamp - even worked great with that "virtual PC" thing that was around years ago. An indispensable app if you're a dedicated EI user.

Now that would be nice. The best I've been able to come up with is opening the object in Accutrans, then saving it as individual obj files, then those files are converted to fbx files with FBX Generator. Finally, open one object in Animator and create a new project, and then merge the rest of the fbx files into the first one. Once the UV maps are reapplied, things generally work out pretty good. I was happy to discover that I didn't have to open each object into its own project before merging.

Ross

[Veehoy]

What about Silo? I know the Mac version has issues but I have been using the PC version as a FACT file converter without any significant problems.

[scott8933]

In general, if you go through a full-fledged translator, 3ds / obj / lwo will all work quite easily and bring in the UV's intact.

By full-fledged, I mean not something like Obj to Fact or Mr. Translate (the freebie that comes with EI, I forget what its actually called). While fine in their own right, they just aren't up to snuff compared to something like Accutrans or my preference PolyTrans. P/T has like 20 years development behind it, and is always kept current. I've never been let down by P/T, and nearly every other user of it will tell you the same.

We have to face that EI is an island, and not supported by anyone any more but those specialty tools. If you're going to work with the outside world, you're going to have to make an investment in various tools too keep things flowing. A translator is one of those tools. You can't trust the developers any more to keep up with the changes in the Fact format, they (unfortunately a financial reality) just don't care any more.

We can live on the island just fine, but we have to make our own fires and shelters. I'm happy there, its a beautiful view at sunset.

What about Silo? I know the Mac version has issues but I have been using the PC version as a FACT file converter without any significant problems.

[richardjoly]

Well put Scott and with poetry...
I live on the other side of the island, we have nice sunrises here...

[DickM]

What about Silo? I know the Mac version has issues but I have been using the PC version as a FACT file converter without any significant problems.

I'm on Mac and Silo ROCKS! I Love it! :love: No modeler I've used compares for speed, ease of use and great exporting. :bowdown:

[monday1313]

if only Silo did nurbs like they do SDS...

sigh....

[Jens C. Möller]

By full-fledged, I mean not something like Obj to Fact...

Please do NOT underestimate O2F. I belive it to be one of the best file converters for the EIAS out there. Do you use it? It may not come in a fancy box, but what it does everyday is absolutely production oriented.

Jens

[A.C. Farley]

I use Obj2Fact. Very nice.

-Craig

[rtrowbridge]

Scott,

I'd love to own Polytrans, but I classify myself as a hobbyist on a shoestring budget. Accutrans was twenty bucks vs. four hundred for Polytrans. It might not be as elegant a solution, but I've been able to get quite a bit out of it. I can only dream about owning most of the great plug-ins out there as well.

Ross


As always, I'd point you towards PolyTrans - it will save you that intermediate step of going through FBX. It does a fine job of bringing in most everything and saving out Facts with usable UV's intact nearly every time. And PT works just fine and fast with bootcamp - even worked great with that "virtual PC" thing that was around years ago. An indispensable app if you're a dedicated EI user.

[markb57]

Scott,

I'd love to own Polytrans, but I classify myself as a hobbyist on a shoestring budget. Accutrans was twenty bucks vs. four hundred for Polytrans. It might not be as elegant a solution, but I've been able to get quite a bit out of it. I can only dream about owning most of the great plug-ins out there as well.

Ross

ViaCAD 2D/3D ($80 from Amazon) read an obj file I kicked out of proE and in turn spit out a fact file that looked just right. I have not worked it real hard, but it did fine in that test. Plus, you get a pretty spiffy solid modeler, too...

markb

[yhloon]

Maybe we come up with an O2F for windows finally ;)

Jens

Please do so! that is what I want for years!

[ReginaldThomasJr]

Please do so! that is what I want for years!

Me too. I was so disappointed when I discovered that O2F DIDN'T work on Windows at all.

[arketype]

Obj2Fac is great. I used it on a large project last year to convert some very detailed automotive models exported from Maya.

The ability of Obj2Fac to re-organize groups based on various criteria, like material assignments is a real time saver.

I think it would be great to see it available for Windows, too ;)

Dave

[AVTPro]

Sounds like a pretty solid set of features. My credit card is ready.

You just can't please everyone at once. Life does not work that way. Hope they make lots of $ on this and keep up the good work!

Wonder if the new rendering engine can handle a 10+ mil poly car.

-David


Co-Sign. Life's a process.

Weight maps are fixed. I'm upgrading.

With 10M+ car, EI isn't the only one behind in upgrades. Where's Snow Leopard? Where's 32 bit memory addressing? Where's full 64bit?

Not even Maya is 64 bit on OSX and Apple OSX isn't 32 bit memory. If Camera can't spit out a 10m car then EI has work to do on their rendering features but how with Apple lagging or the moving target?

16 bit image input is good for ZB OSX users but Pixologic ZB3 has output problems, may have to use version 2 again. OSX ZB users have been waiting over a year for ZB3 and there's no 16 bit displacement output or Zmapper? EI isn't the only one with development woes.

As far as advanced rigging, define ADVANCED. HULK, Gollum? There's Maya or XSI, They are very advanced but don't confused Advanced with Automatic. EI is very automatic hence simple. I don't want advanced rigging in EI, just a few automated features like Spine IK or SDK. Mainly. EI just need to clean up (under the hood) and perfect what they have (interface). Just enough to make working with fun character a pleasure and an art.

There's a place for the simple one man studio who model, rig, animate characters in one month in their PJ's instead Feature films in 3 years on a 3D factory assembly line.

First, EI CA just needs to work.

[rtrowbridge]

I'm not familiar with ViaCAD. I didn't see any mention of Fact files in it's format listing. Are you bringing them in through Modeler using ACIS? I've used Alibre Design Express (free) to create models that I bring in through that route. It's a pretty solid modeler as well.

Ross

ViaCAD 2D/3D ($80 from Amazon) read an obj file I kicked out of proE and in turn spit out a fact file that looked just right. I have not worked it real hard, but it did fine in that test. Plus, you get a pretty spiffy solid modeler, too...

markb

[arketype]

I'm not familiar with ViaCAD. I didn't see any mention of Fact files in it's format listing. Are you bringing them in through Modeler using ACIS? I've used Alibre Design Express (free) to create models that I bring in through that route. It's a pretty solid modeler as well.

Ross


ViadCAD and it's "big brother" Shark export directly to FACT.

[juanxer]

...and Apple OSX isn't 32 bit memory.
Actually, OS X is 64bit-able. It is just that the programmers' path to take advantage of that is far narrower than first expected (at the very least the user interface must be done in Cocoa), but it is perfectly doable. Interestingly enough, Tesla does use a multiplatform software framework that is currently being adapted to support it.

[AVTPro]

Thanks dude. I remember your input being very helpful. The problem I'm complaining about is the one you mention.

There's no apps that take advantage of 32 bit memory addressing so I can take advantage of over 3 gigs of RAM.

Mainly, I mean Maya or EI, I don't use C4D.

[markb57]

I'm not familiar with ViaCAD. I didn't see any mention of Fact files in it's format listing. Are you bringing them in through Modeler using ACIS? I've used Alibre Design Express (free) to create models that I bring in through that route. It's a pretty solid modeler as well.

Ross

Just to clarify - the ViaCAD product spec (even their flashy package - I just checked) does NOT specify FACT export, but in fact (so to speak) you can export FACT directly from it. You can adjust the tesselation during the export process. Very nice quality, from my few experiments, although I haven't figured out the functionality of all the tesselation knobs.

markb

[rtrowbridge]

Thanks for the clarification. I'll have to consider it...



Just to clarify - the ViaCAD product spec (even their flashy package - I just checked) does NOT specify FACT export, but in fact (so to speak) you can export FACT directly from it. You can adjust the tesselation during the export process. Very nice quality, from my few experiments, although I haven't figured out the functionality of all the tesselation knobs.

markb

[Martin Kay]

Definitely a render intensive upgrade - something I can always use....looks like EI will evolve based on what the Igors are happy doing.

I'm glad the raytraced lights have been worked on....the previous version, when used with glass, was completely un-useable because of dismal speed.

I'll be curious to see how fast they have become with glass in a scene now.

I think the biggest missing feature still remains no multi-processor camera. That would be so useful.

I'm not writing EI off yet, multi processor utilisation or not, with the promise of faster soft shadows especially with area lights. I've currently constructed a couple of kitchen sets in Modo and have found some issues, namely the image quality/speed thing. Soft reflections in Modo need a lot of samples to render smooth and even extra samples if that stainless steel object is reflected in say a glossy worktop. I've found the area lights in Modo very good and they almost do away with the need to check the GI option. This obviosly gives a render speed increase. EIs ability to render out large files still make it a real working proposition...

Martin Kay

[ediris]

I might think there is no need for MultiProcesor since you can use Renderama not 100% of the time but almost there, when using it with some plug in there have been some problems in the past.So Renderama is not stable at this point.

[Martin Kay]

I might think there is no need for MultiProcesor since you can use Renderama not 100% of the time but almost there, when using it with some plug in there have been some problems in the past.So Renderama is not stable at this point.

I am not familiar with renderama, but I gather it's not worth using for stills, more for animations?

Martin Kay

[arketype]

I am not familiar with renderama, but I gather it's not worth using for stills, more for animations?

Martin Kay

Renderama is the network render control app that ships with EIAS.
Anyone who has EI has Renderama included. It is worth mentioning that Rama can run without the dongle- so it is effectively an unlimited node network rendering system.

It is also useful for rendering stills from a queue.


For multi-processor machines it allows you to launch multiple copies of Camera and render using each copy simultaneously. On my Mac Pro I typically render on 6 via 'Rama "in the background", leaving me 2 processors free to continue working, even rendering snapshots/ previews with the main camera.

For animations Renderama is very efficient. You will see a 100% speed gain for every processor/ slave Camera you use. This is because you are rendering multiple frames simultaneously.

For still renderings it is most efficient to send renderings to Rama to sit in a queue and render one at a time (assuming you have a LOT of stills).

For individual stills you can divide the final image into a specified number of strips, and send each strip to separate processors/ slave Cameras.

While this is not 100% efficient I regularly see speed increases for such large renderings of around 300% when rendering on 6 processors. This increase, however, is completely scene dependant, and certain scenes will not have this much gain.

"True" multi-processor support would be nice to have, and certainly easier to utilize for new users, but Rama can and does provide significant performance gains on multi-core systems.

Dave

[ediris]

Thanks Dave this will become useful when we get the new MacPro, i donot know if is the right time to buy but is never the right time. I hear is recommended 2GB per procesoor having 16GB on a 2 Quadcore machine. I hope Northern Lights plug ins work on the v8.

Again very nice info on Rama.Thanks,Edgard.

[barnabythebear]

Hiya,


Rama for large stills is very cool!

Yesterday I sent 4 stills to rama - 7mill polys @ 7200x3380

I used 3 cores - so three instances of camera, with each still split into 12 strips.

All worked very well :-)

ta

nige

[Martin Kay]

Renderama is the network render control app that ships with EIAS.
Anyone who has EI has Renderama included. It is worth mentioning that Rama can run without the dongle- so it is effectively an unlimited node network rendering system.

It is also useful for rendering stills from a queue.


For multi-processor machines it allows you to launch multiple copies of Camera and render using each copy simultaneously. On my Mac Pro I typically render on 6 via 'Rama "in the background", leaving me 2 processors free to continue working, even rendering snapshots/ previews with the main camera.

For animations Renderama is very efficient. You will see a 100% speed gain for every processor/ slave Camera you use. This is because you are rendering multiple frames simultaneously.

For still renderings it is most efficient to send renderings to Rama to sit in a queue and render one at a time (assuming you have a LOT of stills).

For individual stills you can divide the final image into a specified number of strips, and send each strip to separate processors/ slave Cameras.

While this is not 100% efficient I regularly see speed increases for such large renderings of around 300% when rendering on 6 processors. This increase, however, is completely scene dependant, and certain scenes will not have this much gain.

"True" multi-processor support would be nice to have, and certainly easier to utilize for new users, but Rama can and does provide significant performance gains on multi-core systems.

Dave

Thanks for the info Dave!

Martin Kay

[juanxer]

I'd add that it's worthy to create a few more Slave Cameras than the number of cores in the computer would dictate. I heard that mentioned here somewhere, and after trying it I found that a third Camera for each pair of cores, even if it slows down things in general, produces a net gain in render times anyway.

EDIT: that is, a net reduction... uh... gain? :curious:

[mike33]

I'd add that it's worthy to create a few more Slave Cameras than the number of cores in the computer would dictate. I heard that mentioned here somewhere, and after trying it I found that a third Camera for each pair of cores, even if it slows down things in general, produces a net gain in render times anyway.

Would that still work on a single dual core without taking a hit on doing EIAS or modeling work?
If all goes well I hope to be a proud owner of a White Macbook.- seems to be the most bang for the buck/backward compatible on the low end of the mobile Mac spectrum.

Thanks,

Mike

[juanxer]

A hit it would take, probably. You ought to do some testing. But it certainly works when you are just letting your computer rip through a render job.

[arketype]

I'd add that it's worthy to create a few more Slave Cameras than the number of cores in the computer would dictate. I heard that mentioned here somewhere, and after trying it I found that a third Camera for each pair of cores, even if it slows down things in general, produces a net gain in render times anyway.

EDIT: that is, a net reduction... uh... gain? :curious:

I really don't think this works at all. I read a post somewhere about this theory, and I have tried it, but I saw a slight DECREASE in performance, not an increase.

It is actually better (in my experience) to have at least 1 core idle to handle the overhead of 'Rama and leave the computer responsive to user input, and have 1 Camera rendering per core. Each slave Camera will use 100% of a core's processing power.

Running multiple Cameras per core causes each Camera to "switch" back and forth as they share the core. This causes "cache thrashing" which means the core's internal cache memory is wiped and re-loaded each time it switches between the Camera processes.
This is not an optimum arrangement.

I find having 8 cores on a Mac Pro to be very beneficial when rendering, even just stills.
I ran EI on a Dual processor G5 for years and it just never really made a lot of difference running two cameras due to overhead issues. But with 8 cores Rama really "sings".
I would recommend getting as many cores as you can afford when buying a new machine. Especially if you are earning money with it ;)

Dave

[juanxer]

It probably depends on the size of textures to load, hard disks available to spread the slaves and diminish access load, etc., too. Anyway, my last project certainly benefited from it. I still was able to do other light tasks, such as web browsing. My Mac Pro is a four core one, perhaps an eight core Mac gets memory-starved by saturating the bus?

[arketype]

If it somehow works for you, great ;)

I have not noticed any other slowdowns on the 2008 MacPro. One Camera rendering alone renders at the same speed as one Camera with 5 or 6 others running simultaneously.

If you have any test projects that demonstrate this effect and some time results for rendering multiple Cameras per core vs. one Camera per core, I would be very interested in the exact results.

Under certain situations where there is lots of disk I/O, (such as saving rendered frames every few seconds for a phong shaded model with lots of soft shadows) I have seen disk activity peak at 180MB per sec. Distributing slaves over multiple hard disks definitely helps in these situations. ;)

[juanxer]

I'll see what I can do tonight. Anyway, I am launching sort of a Camera and a half per core, as the slowdown is noticeable, specially when the task is somewhat heavy (with GI and things), even if up to that I see a passable extra percent of frames vs. time. For light tasks, such as producing some mask passes, probably it will do better.

(Wouldn't cache trashing happen anyway, given the multitude of processes an OS and the typical always-on apps run in the background? Also, does Renderama consume so much as to merit an entire core for itself instead of being tucked in the corner of a core's workload?)

[juanxer]

OK. This is a bit surprising:

A couple test projects: one is a typical set of texture-mapped cosmetics products on a cyclorama plus reflecting planes, a bit of everything but GI. The other is the very same one, set to produce a simple alpha of the objects minus the cyclorama, most render flags switched off.

My machine is a four core 2.66 GHz Mac Pro (2006 edition). I've got three hard disk drives, each with a couple of Slave Cameras. So I create two jobs per project and test one against six slaves and the other against four (I do two jobs per project to check frame render times around the same percentages of rendering progress).

The surprise is that frame render times were rather identical!!! It didn't matter that the Mac Pro was doing six frames at once vs. four.

Even sillier than that, the alpha job was a second slower or so when using four slaves.


I haven't checked a heavier project variant (a GI pass which I remember with certainty to get things slower when using six Cameras). I'll try that tomorrow (I have some pending work to do first). So I'd encourage others to try these things. I want to try using even more slaves myself, to see what happens.

[arketype]

One thing to note- depending on your scene- When rendering stills in strips, many times rendering more strips than cores works very well, and can increase performance for SOME scenes. Heavy GI scenes may also benefit from many strips because fewer GI points are shaded per strip which saves RAM.

The test results so far are not surprising to me.

Those with dual core machines may see less performance gains. (My old dual G5 only got about 70% CPU usage on a second Camera).

Keep the info and performance experiments coming! ;)

Dave

[rtrowbridge]

On my dual core PC, I see almost rock-solid 100% CPU usage on both cores when I am rendering with two slaves. I haven't tried doing more than two at once. It's a laptop, so I make sure I either have the back end propped up or have it sitting on cooling fans when I get rendering.

Ross

[arketype]

On my dual core PC, I see almost rock-solid 100% CPU usage on both cores when I am rendering with two slaves. I haven't tried doing more than two at once. It's a laptop, so I make sure I either have the back end propped up or have it sitting on cooling fans when I get rendering.

Ross

Keep that laptop from melting! :)

Just to clarify-
I always had 100% CPU usage on both CPUs, but the overhead from Renderama always ate into one of the Cameras, So one Camera would run at 100%, and the other could run as low as 70%. This WAS on a G5, perhaps the INTEL dual cores are much more efficient.

I generally do not see Rama taking a significant % of CPU on the 8 core MacPro.

[rtrowbridge]

That makes sense. My second slave tends to take a few seconds more per frame when I'm rendering out an animation. It would be fun to have 8 cores to play with, but I'll have to be happy with the two I have.

Ross

Keep that laptop from melting! :)

Just to clarify-
I always had 100% CPU usage on both CPUs, but the overhead from Renderama always ate into one of the Cameras, So one Camera would run at 100%, and the other could run as low as 70%. This WAS on a G5, perhaps the INTEL dual cores are much more efficient.

I generally do not see Rama taking a significant % of CPU on the 8 core MacPro.

[halfworld]

Ahhhh, network rendering in EI.... I will never complain about it again....

In our office we have a VERY expensive ($thousands) network rendering solution for AE and Maya (it's the same software). A person in our office has spent every day this week (sometimes till 10pm at night) configuring our network in order to get it to work...

DNS servers, file binding, NFS mounts, folder linking, permissions, proxy users, terminal configuration.. blah blah blah... It's so complex to set it up, the installation manual is several hundred pages alone!

Oh, and it still isn't working....

And after all this, when it does eventually work, we will need to copy all files over by hand in order to render.

Sorry about the rant ;)
Ian

[monday1313]

yeah, really, even apple's own final cut studio rendering set-up is unusable if you've installed anything besides fcp on the computers...at least last time i wasted a day or two trying to get it to work...(it may have been fixed by now, i just don't feel like wasting anymore time on it..) and vue's rendering...jeez...what a pain in the but....

Renderama has a few issues with multiple pass renders crashing temp files, but all in all. it has seriously spoiled me...

[3DArtZ]

I keep thinking the topic header for this is
BAD news for v8 :O

[Navstar]

I want some screen shots!

It does seem like a x.5 release, tho'

[juanxer]

"Bad Parscale!, the Movie" :p

Any news? ETA? Pricing? Mr. Parscale's entry seemed to suggest a very short period of time for final betatesting prior to release.

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