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kassun
06-27-2003, 12:27 AM
My first female model. I am using Maya 5.0, Polys then converted the model over to Sub-D's. The neck area looks a bit funny because the head and body haven't been attached yet. Also there is still a visible seam still in the head. This model when finished will be for my demo reel. I would appreciate any and all crits.

Below is the link to the reference images for the body. I did take some liberties on certain aeras.
http://www.fineart.sk/posture24.jpg

Below is a link to the wip
http://sv3.3dbuzz.com/vbforum/attachment.php?s=&postid=312146

Attached are the wires for her


Thanks for your time,
Kassun

kassun
06-27-2003, 12:33 AM
front wire

Kassun

Maximillion
06-27-2003, 04:39 AM
hmm, you've got a first pass done, still lots to go.
I have to ask, why did you model her with her arms out to the side?
I'm curios, because it seems to have become a standard, for no reason I can see...
I find it to be the worst position to model a character, and often it results in horrendously weighted shoulders. Plus, if they're down to the side you have a better way to judge if they're the right length, AND your reference is of a woman with her arms down. Remeber you can always rotate the arms before putting in a skeleton. I myself model halfway between out and down.

The boobs are too spread apart right now, and look nicer on the reference model now... I'm assuming you'd like to improve them, so bring the weight of them towards the middle of her body and add a bit of fullness. (not neccessarily make them bigger!) Plus remember that breasts sit on the pectoral muscle which blends into the shoulder. Right now you have them stop abruptly on the pec, and then the pec kinda blends in. It's much sexier to blend them together.
The ears are way to big, the hip as well, and the knees are too low. The side view is the best, with some nice lines through her, although you've made her torso too long in comparison to her legs. Shorten it up a bit. It may be that the bum is too long as well.... play with it a bit and see what you get.

That's proabably enough for now!!! Keep working and lets see the next draft.

tibor1999
06-27-2003, 04:03 PM
Uhhh...you pose a character that way for placement of the IK.
Thumbs forward, neutral position.

Maximillion
06-27-2003, 06:16 PM
Uhhh... wrong. Part of rigging a good character is defining a plane of action that most of your bones will follow. I use "z". Now, if you're making a game character, you may not have the liberty of defining that based off of engine limitations.

So lets say your arms a straight out, skeleton placed from the top view to allow the "z" rotation to be the default axis. IE. if you made a walk cycle, then the direction the axis on which the arms would swing is "z". You get it looking all good, which the majority of the time people in there firsts steps of becoming a 3D artist (or even "experienced" people, I see it all the time) don't get the shoulder looking good with this starting pose.
Now you rotate the arm down to the sides, you're in "additive" mode, AND it goes screwy. Try it.
Now this won't screw everyone up, but it just another thing that makes me question the logic behind that pose. IK will work at the 45 degree angle, probably better, as well it will work when that arms are down. Just look at, ohhh, say, WETA, and the postion their characters are in when the bind them.
Thumbs forward is right, though.

kassun
06-27-2003, 06:32 PM
side and front with image planes

kassun

tibor1999
06-27-2003, 07:11 PM
If WETA does it another way that's great. Every place I've worked does it in "Jesus Christ" pose. That's what they expect and darnit that's what they get....

Maximillion
06-27-2003, 07:31 PM
Well, maybe those places you worked should smarten up.
Think, what is a character's most common arm position.... straight out to the side? No. It's an impractical and archaic form of working.
I've continually seen that there's still a lot of redundancy and "legacy" methods of working scrounged up from before the 3D world was filled with artists that's still around.
The only way I see it having any advantage is that you have an easy axis in which to work. A 45 degree angle can be a bit abstract for some.
Now truthfully a great artist can work in any situation or limitation and get decent to great results. Plus some packages out there don't let you model after the skeleton is in there, and thus arms straight out lets you get the armpit right.

So I guess if your TD says do it a certain way, you should do it a certain way, but it not necessarily the best way.

kassun
06-27-2003, 07:45 PM
Is there really one way to something in 3D? I was under the impression that there isn't. I posted for help on my model, not to start a flame war on how to rig a character Maximillion.

Kassun

Maximillion
06-27-2003, 08:12 PM
There is no flame war, mearly a discussion as to what is a good position to sculpt your model in, which relates directly to you. I used to teach this for a living, and found the solution I've presented greatly helped beginning modellers. I was under the impression if you post here you want to learn how to create a better model. So, please, take my critiques and apply them, and post again. See what people think.

goosh
06-27-2003, 08:21 PM
Hi

I'm primary an animator, so it doesn't matter to me much how the model gets done as long as I can animate it.

Now having said that. I do quite a bit of TD work. And it's true that having the model with arms down half way, is not as easy to rig as when the arms are straight out.

I think the 'standard' that has been used for a while with the arms out is because it's just simpler to put the bones in.

Having said that, I also think like Maximillion that it's not the right way to go. (The fact that a lot of people do it with the arms out, doesn't mean that it's the best and most efficient)

Having the arms down will let you create waaaay better deformation on the shoulders. As any good TD will tell you, the shoulders are the hardest part to get them looking right and it can take long time and a lot of tweaking.

By having the arms down, you save yourself a lot of problems and your deformation will look 10 times better...

The key thing is to see what the character is going to do. Most animations don't need to lift the arms to a T position and they are most of them with the arms down. So I personally would rather have the model look right when the arms are down than when they are in a T position which I'll never hit while animating.

On top of this, I have seen a lot of characters with too long arms or too short. That's because you have very little sense of scale and almost no reference while modeling with the arms straight out. While if you have them on the side, you know exactly where the hips are and how far the arms should go

My 2c

Goosh

goosh
06-27-2003, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by kassun
Is there really one way to something in 3D? I was under the impression that there isn't. I posted for help on my model, not to start a flame war on how to rig a character Maximillion.

Kassun

Hey Kassun

No, there are TONS of ways to do thins.. of couse..

But some of them are better than others.

It took me a long long time to figure out somethings that I wish somebody would have told me in a few seconds and I could have moved forward and learn new things.

I didn't think Maximillion was flaming anybody, but trying to help you create a better model. I think that's the idea behind posting things in here.
(what I have found as a TD, is that a lot of modelers don't think about the TD part and when it comes to rigging and skinning a character, it's a nightmare).

Of course, I also noticed that some people post to get: "great work, awesome stuff, keep going".

I'd rather have somebody with experience tell me what they really think and show me how to keep on improving my work.

That's the beauty of the forum

Goosh

kassun
07-09-2003, 01:02 AM
Maximillion "Well, maybe those places you worked should smarten up" I mis intrupited your tone.

Any way Here is an update on the head. I fixed the ear and have added nurbs curves for hair. I would really apreciate advice on how to go about creating the hair. I was planing on using pait effects, but not really sure what other methods are out there.

http://sv3.3dbuzz.com/vbforum/attachment.php?s=&postid=332795

Thanks,
Kassun

Maximillion
07-09-2003, 08:36 AM
Hey,
No prob, I was a bit irritated at the response by the other guy. I guess my tone was a bit harsh... I was just trying to be to the point.
But the head does look better. I've included a head that I worked on long ago for Reboot just so I can point out a couple things.
The best angle is the front. The side is OK, but the 3/4 still needs work.
The first thing is the corners of the lips. Something that's hard to explain, but the corners on people actually kind of go into the face. (notice the red arrow) Think of the line around the mouth that creates the edge where the lip ends, and the line around that. At the point under the nose the lip line sticks out further, but when you get to the corner of the mouth, they switch as the lip line goes into the cheek a bit.... hope that makes sense.

Another is that there is that, straight on, the head is about 5 eyes wide. One eye's length between the two, but there's also one eye length on the outside of each eye....pretty much. The distance occurs gradually from the side of the eye to the ear.

I bring this up because it might help with the weakest part of your face right now, which is the 3/4 line. Don't worry, it's a common result of working too much in only the front and side views. I kind of exaggerated it in blue in the pic, but that line is as important as the front or side view. Right now your lady has very little brow, no cheek bone/cheek, and the result is her eyes bulge out.

MAN, I'm picking away here, but I have to say your geo layout is nice and clean, and has the important lines in there to work with.

As for the hair, paint effects could be the way to go... I haven't used much Maya so I can't give you any tips there. Other techniques fall mostly under using grids (Nurbs would be good) and laying them onto the head forming hair and then applying a texture to them to make them look like hair. I will sometimes just sculpt the hair with polys and give it a stylized look... makes it hard to texture though. GREAT reference for hair is in comic books. Since they have a crazy particle system to deal with it is often simplified brilliantly that you can use to help yourself out in 3D. Notice how they group strands together, and try to copy that even in how you layout the paint effects....

Anyways, hope it helps!

kassun
07-16-2003, 07:37 PM
here is an update

side persp and front views

kassun
07-19-2003, 11:53 PM
here is an update, worked a bit on the jaw line and added detail to the ear. I worked on her cheek bones and where the ear meets the cheek. Comments appreciated.

thanks,
Kassun

kassun
07-21-2003, 04:06 AM
fixed the porportions of the face. The pupil now matches up with the lips. The ears are rotated intoplace and the cheeks have been added to. Comments needed.

Kassun


http://sv2.3dbuzz.com/vbforum/attachment.php?s=&postid=345408

kassun
07-23-2003, 06:44 PM
here her head is all compete. sub-d's. Maya5

http://sv3.3dbuzz.com/vbforum/attachment.php?s=&postid=347826

thanks for your time,
Kassun

kassun
08-07-2003, 05:01 AM
360 pan

http://home.mchsi.com/~cassuns/3d/vids/female.avi

Crits appreciated,
Kassun

blinxpro
08-10-2003, 04:31 AM
This thread seems to be a big help to many that are attempting modeling the female anatomy.

Check it out. Hope it helps.

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80426

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