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Troll
06-26-2003, 03:25 PM
First of all I wanna say thabks to the CGTalk staff who put this new forum together. I could use some hard critique!

Here is the guy, a troll who I am going to use in a short im working on. He will have a very agressive body language, which means fast and very "extreme" body movements. This requires good shaped limbs, and I will start by showing you the shoulder. I have not yet started rigging him, since the modeling is not finished, but please tell me what you think about the shoulder area. I'm not afraid of critique!
3dsmax5.1 is the software and box modeling is the method.

Hit me!:cool:

http://home.no/slipknut/troll-01.jpg

Troll
06-26-2003, 03:25 PM
Here is the shoulder:

http://home.no/slipknut/troll-02a.jpg

http://home.no/slipknut/troll-02b.jpg

zachgrachan
06-26-2003, 03:54 PM
he looks great, I esp. like the hands and feet. I would recommend bulking up the top of the shoulder (deltoid) and the inner thigh too. both look too skinny for the rest of the limb to come out of.

also, you may want to add sort of a crease between the belly and the chest, most potbellys come with manboobs.

Neox
06-26-2003, 04:08 PM
nice work so far, but you need to scale his head smaller, he doesn't look big with such a huge head...
and go on modelling, you have to ad a lot more detail to his muscles :)

Troll
06-26-2003, 07:04 PM
zachgrachan: I am actually happy with how the feet turned out :). The hands on the other hand (haha) am I not too satisfied with. There is something about them that bugs me, but I cant put my finger on it... I think maybe the hand itself is too small. This handmodel is like the fourth or fifth I have made for him, and I just have to accept how they look for now, coz I'll get back to them later (have your critique ready when I do ;) )

Anyway, back to the feet. As you can see, he has three main toes, and two strange things sticking out from the sides. I am making this based on a story, written and performed by a band called Finntroll, which is about the Trolls being forced away from their homelands by the new human homesteaders. After a while, the trolls, lead by the mighty Rivfader, gathers to take back the lands which was once theirs. The reason why I made the feet so deformed is that I imagined the trolls had to leave the woods, and live in deep caves. The change of lifestyle made the trolls evolve hence the feet change.
I am going to make the fingers more like the cavetroll from LOTR whose nails are thicker and goes almost into the fingerbone. It's explained on the LOTR special edition dvd. Go watch it.

Thanks for the shoulder tip, youre exacly right there.

Some friends of mine commented the inner thigh issue, but thanks for pointing that out too.

I do actually have a sort of crease between the belly and the chest (using different smoothing groups), but I had ripped the model apart limb by limb recently (Its better to work that way) and just put it together without deividing it with smoothing groups before i rended him and showed him to you guys.
More defined manboobs are coming:cool:

Neox: Smaller head... hmm maybe youre right, tho I intended to make him a bit cartoony (hance the big head, feet, belly and hands). More details are coming. I have only built the base body, and I am detailing it as I go through each bodypart here on the forum (starting with the shoulder). Arms are next.

Btw, friggin great work you did on that cavetroll of yours. It, among alot of other great stuff on this forum, really helped me on the way, and it still does. Keep up the good work everybody!

nObedienz
06-28-2003, 01:09 PM
C'mon, slap some sexeh textures onto the creature :)

It looks great, though, I'd like to see more muscle definitions near the belly region. The shoulder area could be tweaked aswell, I'm sure you'll nail it.

Finally, a question, do you intend to import your troll into a game?

Troll
06-28-2003, 03:10 PM
nObedienz: The textures are to be made by a swedish 2d artist I met a couple of days ago, and I have to finish the model before I send it and the unwrapped uvw's to him. I already sent him a "copy" of the head which he is working on now.

The textures will look something similar to this, but the model will be a bit different (as you can see, these ones are much more "hunchy"):
http://home.no/slipknut/trolls-tex.jpg

Here are some new shots of the shoulder and the overarm muscles. I like how it turned out, so thanks for the tips guys.
I added some polys to the biceps and that muscle on the back of the arm (triceps?) and made an elbow that I think will deform good when I rig him. I also made an armpitch and made that bulky thing on the top of the shoulder.

http://home.no/slipknut/troll-03.jpg

http://home.no/slipknut/troll-04.jpg

btw, the polycount increased with almost 2000 since i first posted, mostly on the back, but I will try to optimize it a bit more. The current polycount is 8888, so I dont think it will go in any games...
We will make some stills and some animations.

Troll
06-28-2003, 03:15 PM
I will finish the feet before I start reworking the hands.
Here is a closeup:

http://home.no/slipknut/troll-06.jpg

I already explained the toe issue, so just give me some tips or thoughts.
I'm having problems with the kneecaps. Any ideas?

zachgrachan
06-28-2003, 04:55 PM
I like the top/front/back of the new shoulder, but there looks to be something sticking out of the pit. could be the chest muscle showing from the weird angle, but it looks like an extra one between the pec and the lat.

for the knees I would say you need to show the bottom edge of it as you have the top, kneecaps stick out all the way around. also, a more defined ankle may help show the calf muscle which may help the knee. the feet don't need anything IMO.

BlueCougar
06-28-2003, 11:09 PM
This is just a suggestion to help with shoulder deformations once you start animating. It is meant to make it easier to isolate the geometry movement around a ball joint to just the immediate area in a smooth manner. Hope it helps.

http://www.bluecougarstudios.com/focus_crits/troll-shoulderloops.jpg

Kenn

BiTMAP
06-29-2003, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by BlueCougar
This is just a suggestion to help with shoulder deformations once you start animating. It is meant to make it easier to isolate the geometry movement around a ball joint to just the immediate area in a smooth manner. Hope it helps.



Kenn

hey Could you make up a quick image of how to do that for the pelvis for the legs to be easier animated? I'm working on the legs of a game character (its the Normals model right now but we're useing that for publications and media so it needs to pose) and i want to make it move nicely in the legs, BUt i've never modeled anything completly before and its kinda learning as I go (and alot i've learned and more to learn i hope!) and I just need to know how to set up that area properly. (btw, its female)

Stonepilot
06-29-2003, 10:13 AM
Right now he looks like a low res game character. The biggest problem that I have with it is the none existence of the colar bone. My experience from one of the rigging people at work is that you need a good amount of devisions around areas that will bend. Like elbow,shoulder, knee etc... and they need to be clean. The more you have the better deformation you'll achieve. Over all I feel that it lacks modeling detail. I know you can fake allot of detail with textures but the defenition of muscles and wrinkles on faces just don't look as good close up if they come from textures.

Troll
06-29-2003, 02:32 PM
BlueCougar: I remember reading an article once about shoulder deformations and such, written by some guy called Bay Raitt. Check out the shoulder on the picture:
http://cube.phlatt.net/home/spiraloid/tutorial/muscle_loop.html

Stonepilot: Yeah, there is too little modeled detail, I agree 100% on the things you said. I'll work more on the small details and post something soon. Stay tuned:)

BlueCougar
06-29-2003, 10:18 PM
By posting this article in response to my advice it is making the statement: "You really don't know what you're talking about, go read this and learn something so you can understand why I did it that way." Well, to use the resource you shown me that you used to draw from, I've included the link then marked where the author used the same edgeloops in the shoulders in his reference picture.

Complexity reference page of the article (http://cube.phlatt.net/home/spiraloid/tutorial/complexity.html)

http://www.bluecougarstudios.com/focus_crits/complexity_edgeloops.jpg

Take what you want from what I have said and remember that all of this is relative. If you want to incorporate what I've learned from modeling characters that's alright, if you don't that's alright as well, but remember thread contributors don't have to take the time to post let alone take the time to make notes on images in PS.
Good luck!

Kenn

Troll
06-30-2003, 12:36 AM
BlueCougar: I meant no harm with my post and and I see now that I was wrong. Thank you for pointing that out for me.
Your suggestion has been taken into account and I will fix it for the next update.
And I really dont know what I am talking about, thats why I'm here :)

I figured out I'd make the troll more like the ones on the picture I posted earlier (mure hunchy) and I made some more modeled detail like the uhm.. "extra sets of tits" and some other stuff. I also spent countless hours today getting rid of as many triangles as possible and cleaning up the mesh. I also made a new hand with only three fingers and a tail which doesnt really look good yet.

Here he is:
Front view (http://www.threedy.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=80495)
Back view (http://www.threedy.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=80497)

BlueCougar
06-30-2003, 12:40 AM
No harm, no foul....keep rolling on him. How about more of a pot/buddha belly on him?

Kenn

Troll
06-30-2003, 12:49 AM
I tried a broad, fat belly on him but I think the one I got (more like a beer-belly) fits him better:)

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