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tomtm
01-10-2009, 10:52 PM
Hi there,

I own MS 2.5
While I like this application, I would like to see more feedback and more "news" and updates
from PMG. I think, many of us needs to know the direction of development, because we can't invest all the time in a blackbox. :)
I would like to see Messiah as a app with more stuff than rigging, the renderer is great, but still needs some additional stuff. I am agree, a Modeler is not what I am waiting for.

What do you think?

Greets Tom

catizone
01-11-2009, 01:05 AM
well, I will speak only for myself, obviously...

I like messiah very much. I can't picture using something else. I am finally getting the time I need to embark on a half hour kid's video. It is something I have started a while back, all using messiah. (Even if I don't revise my rigs with newer things that messiah now offers, I know what I already have would work fine, because messiah has always been a very unique and powerful program. Messiah allows me to rig ANY way I want, all tied to expressions as I choose, etc. It's intelligently designed and easy to work with, allowing me speed and efficiency.

Even if there was not a new version on the immediate horizon, I would still use it for this project, because I really like it. Speed, high quality toolset and effects, great renderer, etc.

But..there IS a new version in the wings, and things have been mentioned, as well as hinted at. I trust PMG based on what they have given me (and us) so far. I only have the highest expectations for anything they do. Each person has to make their own choice, of course.

Best,
Rick

Julez4001
01-13-2009, 03:23 PM
Has there been any hints of Messiah ..um 3.3 is it beside Ulvens Auto rig will be included?

Boone
01-15-2009, 11:12 PM
If there is one thing I would like to see is stability to match those of all other apps. I've just downloaded the demo and its got some horrendous display flickers. PMG has to address this sharply so people like myself can give the software a fair trial. The only other app I've had an issue with was TrueSpace7...

From what I've heard M:S is powerful enough to rival the animation in XSI, Max and Maya but costs as little as 270. This is a package I am very much interested in, but until I see a demo version work fine on both of my current machines, I will have to pass up on it for the moment.

Julez4001
01-15-2009, 11:30 PM
Messiah application is pure opengl so its quite sensitive.

It should be in a wiki but all you need is rivatuner (if you are using a nvidia card) and turn video buffering or something to that effect, just do a search for in this forum

Tama
01-16-2009, 12:38 AM
If there is one thing I would like to see is stability to match those of all other apps. I've just downloaded the demo and its got some horrendous display flickers. PMG has to address this sharply so people like myself can give the software a fair trial. The only other app I've had an issue with was TrueSpace7...

From what I've heard M:S is powerful enough to rival the animation in XSI, Max and Maya but costs as little as 270. This is a package I am very much interested in, but until I see a demo version work fine on both of my current machines, I will have to pass up on it for the moment.'

Let me take a guess, you are using an ATI card?

Ulven
01-16-2009, 12:50 AM
If there is one thing I would like to see is stability to match those of all other apps. I've just downloaded the demo and its got some horrendous display flickers. PMG has to address this sharply so people like myself can give the software a fair trial. The only other app I've had an issue with was TrueSpace7...

From what I've heard M:S is powerful enough to rival the animation in XSI, Max and Maya but costs as little as 270. This is a package I am very much interested in, but until I see a demo version work fine on both of my current machines, I will have to pass up on it for the moment.

Nvidia:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=5042713&postcount=10

For ATI cards the only solution I've seen was to turn on antialiasing in the screen card settings.

Parsec3d
01-16-2009, 05:55 PM
and the simplest one to fix the flicker prob is lowering display acceleration one point in on display proprieties , amazingly messiah wont be affected by this at all.(but the flickering interface is totally gone).

Boone
01-16-2009, 07:26 PM
Re: Tama.

Nope, its a nVidia Geforce 8600m GT(primary machine is a notebook).;)

Re: Ulven.

Well, its certainly worked. Haven't tried it on my desktop yet( an aging P4 ) but I'm sure it will. First impression was that it was an unacceptable solution, but then again my card is a consumer card - not a professional one. I expect this kind of problem wouldnt happen on a professional card...

Anyway, you have my gratitude for the solution and I look forward to giving M:S a good test over the next few evenings. I'd rather not resort to blender if I can help it!:scream:

Ulven
01-18-2009, 11:56 AM
Good that the solution worked for you. I believe it is something that changed with how Vista displays openGL, as it doesn't seem to occur on other operating systems. Our entire studio is on xp64 so I don't know.

You might want to have a look here for a sort of quick intro to messiah for rigging, just helps clarify some basic concepts that might be named something different in messiah:
http://setuptab.com/index.php/topic,89.0.html

tomtm
01-22-2009, 10:52 AM
Hi,

cool stuff would be the addition off:
-dynamic hair
-Instancing geometry (animation with offset aswell)
-maybe a dropdown list to choose the surface to apply softbody/hair effect
-FBX i/o

:cool:


Greets Tom

isobarxx
01-25-2009, 06:21 AM
re: flickering, I fixed it on XP with my new nvidia laptop, but I'm honestly not sure wtf I did right. Here's my settings,
Buffer-flipping mode: Use block transfer
Enable Overlay: On
Error reporting: Off
Exported pixel types: RGB overlays
Extension Limit: Off
Force stereo shuttering: Off
Maximize texture memory: Off
Thread optimization: On
Tripple buffering: On
Unified back/depth buffer: On

Boone
01-25-2009, 03:00 PM
After a good shake down I would like to see a "Right-click-cancel" feature. Having to complete the operation and then undo is sometimes annoying. Other than that, Messiah seems to be alright.

tomtm
01-25-2009, 11:09 PM
yes, but realtime simulating hair (like the softbody) would be defenitely cool!

Zimtower
01-27-2009, 01:41 AM
PMG has been advertising the free Hair Module as free for a "limited" time, a year has passed and it is still available for free for a "limited" time. I should sue them for false advertisment XD

tomtm
01-27-2009, 02:52 AM
yes, you are true!!! I think, this site and unfortunately the product doesn't get enough attention by the owners and developers itself.....
The image gallery is about 8 years old!

Luxology does the same recently with a time limited offer, but after the limit, you still can buy it with the same discount.... I don't think it's fair for user who support the industry and it's products...


greets Tom

calilifestyle
01-30-2009, 08:53 PM
So what is going on with messiah

Ulven
01-30-2009, 10:53 PM
So what is going on with messiah

it's in hunker down development mode.

Zimtower
01-30-2009, 11:53 PM
And messiah studio is also being pirated, PMG might want to solve that in the next release. It's unfair to PMG and also unfair to the customers receiving little updates because of lack of development.

calilifestyle
02-02-2009, 06:34 PM
so what happen to the demo version.

Boone
02-02-2009, 09:31 PM
I've decided to go with Blender for the next project or so, possibly Lightwave later. The thing thats put me off Messiah is the pricing'n'bundling. Hair this, render nodes that - why not just charge $500 for it and make it out-of-the-box?

Seriously, I've used Max & Maya - given a choice I would prefer to use Messiah for animation. PMG needs to cut the bullshit with the bundle thing and simply call it "Messiah".

jipe
02-02-2009, 10:38 PM
I'm not quite sure I understand your frustrations, Boone... I see it as a good thing that pmG offers its customers options. Those who have no need for hair/fur, multi-core, or unlimited render nodes don't have to pay for features they'll never use, while others who need it pay a very reasonable amount. Even if you purchase all the modules, messiah still is a killer deal.

Zimtower: Piracy bugs the crap out of me too, but I've no idea how pmG will manage to "solve that in the next release". I don't know of a software program that hasn't been pirated, at least without DRM measures that do nothing but A) eat up valuable development time and B) create large hassles for all of us legitimate paying customers. I would rather see pmG's limited resources put to use fixing bugs and adding new features.

Ulven
02-03-2009, 03:51 PM
I've decided to go with Blender for the next project or so, possibly Lightwave later. The thing thats put me off Messiah is the pricing'n'bundling. Hair this, render nodes that - why not just charge $500 for it and make it out-of-the-box?

Seriously, I've used Max & Maya - given a choice I would prefer to use Messiah for animation. PMG needs to cut the bullshit with the bundle thing and simply call it "Messiah".

I think the reason it works like this with messiah is that people can kinda pick and choose what they want a bit, although I'm not saying it's definately the best way and other programs should do it this way, I don't have a problem paying for the upgrades I need on different computers. Like I only pay for unlimited render nodes once, not for every seat.

Even totalled together... it's quite cheap.

Boone
02-03-2009, 06:51 PM
Well, this is the thing; Messiah is pretty much the first dedicated animation package in the same way Silo, Mudbox and Modo are low cost and complete modelling solutions. Messiah has a lot going for it, but I feel its in pieces - which in my opinion isnt good for a dedicated solution. Having to purchase and install extra pieces is unwanted hassle - especially on a time-critical job.

Put it this way; If I had to purchase, for Silo/mudbox/modo etc, extra modules just to make use of multiple cores and 64bit machines, UVmapping'n'texturing and sculpting - it would come across half-assed. And putting on their website "free module for a limited time only" seems very tacky. And as someone has pointed out, that seems to have been left on the site for a while now. If it really was at a cheap price to begin with - why the special deals? I would make it an all in one package and say "Messiah is a complete, powerful animation & rendering solution for a price that puts the competition to shame." That sells better and it will come better recommended when pitted against other applications.

This is really what bothers me the most; is Messiah under good management? From what I can see Messiah doesnt seem to be in a stable situation. Granted, it is used in the industry, but so was Mirai and, despite being ahead of its time, the company that owned it didnt do much with it and its now gone. I get the feeling that Messiah is heading the same way.

I shall keep an eye on Messiah as I feel it has great potential, but I need to see that PMG are doing something with the package. A good start would be by having a version 3.0 demo...

catizone
02-03-2009, 07:01 PM
I guess I just don't understand the complaint.

Most see buying only what one WANTS as a PLUS. Those of us that want the extra two options apparently don't seem to think that makes PMG or messiah look half-assed in any way. (Flipbook offers the same kind of ability to BUY only what you need, instead of forcing one to buy a full-blown app some might not need.

Since the cost is SO small for messiah compared to other packages, and it does so much more in a better way (my opinion), I still don't understand the complaint about having to say, "yes I want the 64 bit...or unlimited render node license".

Best,
Rick

Boone
02-03-2009, 07:19 PM
Thats fair enough. We see the product from different perspectives and I am fine with that.

Ulven
02-03-2009, 11:48 PM
Well, this is the thing; Messiah is pretty much the first dedicated animation package in the same way Silo, Mudbox and Modo are low cost and complete modelling solutions. Messiah has a lot going for it, but I feel its in pieces - which in my opinion isnt good for a dedicated solution. Having to purchase and install extra pieces is unwanted hassle - especially on a time-critical job.

Put it this way; If I had to purchase, for Silo/mudbox/modo etc, extra modules just to make use of multiple cores and 64bit machines, UVmapping'n'texturing and sculpting - it would come across half-assed. And putting on their website "free module for a limited time only" seems very tacky. And as someone has pointed out, that seems to have been left on the site for a while now. If it really was at a cheap price to begin with - why the special deals? I would make it an all in one package and say "Messiah is a complete, powerful animation & rendering solution for a price that puts the competition to shame." That sells better and it will come better recommended when pitted against other applications.

This is really what bothers me the most; is Messiah under good management? From what I can see Messiah doesnt seem to be in a stable situation. Granted, it is used in the industry, but so was Mirai and, despite being ahead of its time, the company that owned it didnt do much with it and its now gone. I get the feeling that Messiah is heading the same way.

I shall keep an eye on Messiah as I feel it has great potential, but I need to see that PMG are doing something with the package. A good start would be by having a version 3.0 demo...

I see where you're coming from and I can't say that I blame you for speculating like you do, we always do with 3d programs, but I think it would be a shame for you to dismiss it because of the pricing decisions. I would say that the strong arm pmg lacks is definately PR. But... knowing that it's strong in animation and rendering, and dear I say more so than blender and lightwave, especially in animation, it would be a shame to conclude that Messiah is going the same way as Mirai. I urge you to give it some further testing and have a look at some of it's strengths and compare it to blender and lightwave for animation.

Julez4001
02-04-2009, 12:43 AM
Sometimes though I don't understand why they take the 6-8 months to update ANYTHING on their website. I mean I guess they know where they stand and they act accordingly but they honestly do not even try to things vibrant or attraction. Everything they recieved is always 3rd party effort - ie Ulven.

Tama
02-04-2009, 02:09 AM
Considering the size of the organization, I cut them some slack. Even when pmg had 3 principals, they weren't really much swifter at updates and keeping their website current.
I believe pmg is working with a skeleton crew (or more like a single bone)

I look forward to Fori's next release.

tomtm
02-04-2009, 10:33 PM
another thing.... why aren't here any announcements to ongoing features?
So what is hair if it's not dynamic in a "Animation Package"?
As I heard there is something to come, but why not an announcemnet?
But this is not just pmg.... all the smaller companies including Newtek,Luxology are doing this most of the time instead of inform the users and take care of it's people who pay for the software and support the industries.
Ok, it's just software, but it's also an investment on Software and Hardware.

Greets Tom

catizone
02-05-2009, 12:35 AM
I agree that I wished I knew more about exactly what was coming. But then, based on past experience, I, and everyone else, will start clamoring for it NOW because it will be cool.

I am very happy with my investment in messiah, even when I paid much more than the current pricing.

Since they did such intensive work on the rendering end for the last release, I am "assuming" that there will be new and cool animation additions.

Believe me, I would LOVE to know now, and even have the new version now. I will be starting on a large personal production very soon. I would love to see and have all the new stuff, as it will probably be better or more efficient that how I might currently do it. That is another reason why I haven't jumped whole hog into it yet...I am anxious to see what tools/processes might enable me to save time, as it is virtually a one man team for the animation.

So I am hopeful it is VERY soon!

Best,
Rick

Ulven
02-05-2009, 12:45 AM
There's three reasons not to let people know too much ahead of time.
1. Other packages seeing the new features too early and jumping into making their own varieties.
2. Promising a feature that then turns out to be more difficult to implement than what was expected.
3. Causing hype and then borking it up. most recent victim: CORE.

Zimtower
02-05-2009, 01:23 AM
Any plans to make autorig for LW core?

Julez4001
02-05-2009, 02:27 AM
Second that motion.

calilifestyle
02-05-2009, 05:22 AM
True Ulven. but any news is better then no news. I mean really anything. i mean Andrew from 3d-coat is a good example. one man and he is always updating its users on new features, or talking to its users. I would have bought into this program but there devopment seemed to slow or and even dead at one point.

HarverdGrad
02-05-2009, 05:09 PM
Thing that turned me off from upgrading is charging $149 for the ability to use 64Bit and/or multicore. Multicore & 64Bit are becoming more common everyday.
Regards,
-D

jipe
02-05-2009, 06:13 PM
I don't know the official reason, but here's my guess:

The additional costs for the 64-bit/multi-core and unlimited render nodes may have been established so that messiah:Studio Workstation or messiah:animate users wanting to upgrade to messiah 3 could do so for a low price ($189) while still appeasing all of the messiah:Studio Professional customers who paid considerably more for their licenses back in the day.

So even though the pricing choice may have been made to benefit users, I understand how some could feel a negative psychological effect ("I'm being nickled and dimed for a basic feature like 64-bit?"). For me, however, the math makes sense: messiah Studio 3's base price is insanely low, and even if you pay for the two extra modules it's still only $647. I don't know any other 3d package that even comes close to that kind of value if you need to do serious character animation and rendering.

Ulven
02-05-2009, 08:48 PM
I discussed this with Fori earlier and he said the following (paraphrased):
"I need to keep a lower price option for those people that don't need the extra stuff. Most people purchase the lower one especially with the world finance condition, and those people who are doing lots of professional work with it can add on 64bit/multicore and unlimited rendernode licenses if and when they need to".

I think it's fair to all. You get a high end animation toolkit for $399, and some extras to deal with things that you would only really encounter if you go beyond a certain usage type. If you are making a living on messiah, you can afford to put that extra bit in to the development pool. I think we'll see more things bundled into that upgrade in the future so that people don't feel 'nickled and dimed' by it.

Ulven
02-06-2009, 07:16 AM
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=59&t=727068

DMack
02-06-2009, 10:34 AM
COOOL! 'm really looking forward ot the "Dynamic Pan-Polygonal Reactive Illumination"

:) Great one Fred and toooo true!

lillmagnus
02-06-2009, 11:23 AM
...and when can we buy pointanimtion v2?

Julez4001
02-06-2009, 12:04 PM
yeah is it separate or messiah 3.3

Ulven
02-06-2009, 06:17 PM
This is a sneak peak of something to be bundled with the next release, however possibly part of the current 64bit/multicore upgrade.

gdevore
02-08-2009, 06:28 AM
Wow.. this is quite the innovation.. I always wanted point level animation and thought it should be a effect module.. but this is WAY above and beyond.. Congratulations.. this is really special.. My only hope is that there is the possibility of setting shortcuts for the different operations.. to speed up the flow.. GREAT JOB .. Vegard.. and company!!

Gary

This is a sneak peak of something to be bundled with the next release, however possibly part of the current 64bit/multicore upgrade.

ThomasHelzle
02-08-2009, 06:53 PM
Vegard: That looks great!

While I think Fred is the last guy in the whole industry to make jokes about NewTek doing Vaporware, I personally plan to support pmG as well as NewTek by keeping the two apps updated, although I hardly use them ATM.

NewTek really blew the announcement after a great start with the countdown, but the longer I work in the industry, the more I feel that I love to know that there are independent developers left.

As much as I enjoy XSI, I hope there will always be alternatives to Autodesk.

And I really hope that the people at pmG at one point get over their past experiences and find an open and clear way to communicate with existing and potential users.
For a small company that is the core.

Thank you Ulven and Kudos to Fori!

Thomas Helzle

Parsec3d
02-08-2009, 08:09 PM
Would be possible to make it a separate module and selling it that way for32.

fwtep
02-09-2009, 03:03 AM
Vegard: That looks great!

While I think Fred is the last guy in the whole industry to make jokes about NewTek doing Vaporware, I personally plan to support pmG as well as NewTek by keeping the two apps updated, although I hardly use them ATM.Hi Thomas! Just as a note, that "press release" was something I wrote back in 2005. I just changed a couple of things-- the names (originally they were our real names) and added a paragraph from a different one (I'd written two).

Cheers,
Fred

ThomasHelzle
02-11-2009, 03:19 PM
Whatever...

I would much prefer if the smaller developers would join forces instead of pointing fingers.
Even if I know your sometimes weird sense of humor, most people don't and I can't see how something like this helps either pmG or NewTek gain more respect, which both earned, but by stumbling over their own feet communicationwise both lost in big chunks.

Autodesks acquisition of Softimage is annoying many many people...
So there are interesting times ahead in a worldwide state of financial crisis.

I personally hope very very much that NewTek will succeed and that Fori will continue to improve messiah.

Best of luck!

Thomas Helzle

Julez4001
02-11-2009, 03:34 PM
I wished we could get updated Manuals and docs.

I mean I like jokes like everyone else but the manuals haven't been updated in almost a year and even longer if you don't consider the whats new sections as "updates".

PMG users have been regulated to not deserving of the simple things.

Ulven
02-11-2009, 05:02 PM
I wished we could get updated Manuals and docs.
That'd be lovely, but I'm going on reserves already with everything on my plate so the tutorial videos showing how to use stuff is all I've personally got time for on that front. That's how we'll be teaching juniors at the studio too. I think time is the problem all around for most of the people who has the level of proficiency to do so. All the old stuff still applies though.

PMG users have been regulated to not deserving of the simple things.
What? How so?

I personally hope very very much that NewTek will succeed and that Fori will continue to improve messiah.
I think we all do, I think it was just a bit of fun poked at all of us 3d users and programmers. I laughed at the floor, whilst rolling loudly.

Tama
02-11-2009, 06:43 PM
I wished we could get updated Manuals and docs.

I mean I like jokes like everyone else but the manuals haven't been updated in almost a year and even longer if you don't consider the whats new sections as "updates".

PMG users have been regulated to not deserving of the simple things.

What simple things are you having trouble with?

Did you mean relegated?

Julez4001
02-11-2009, 08:16 PM
Sorry typing too fast usually creates tons of grammatical/spelling mistakes but
yes "relegated"


Ulven..are you PMG now?


I thought it was Fred's responsibility to do the tutorials and manuals.
And there is still lot of stuff that have changed and not been corrected or updated in the manuals.

Ulven
02-11-2009, 09:02 PM
Sorry typing too fast usually creates tons of grammatical/spelling mistakes but
yes "relegated"


Ulven..are you PMG now?


I thought it was Fred's responsibility to do the tutorials and manuals.
And there is still lot of stuff that have changed and not been corrected or updated in the manuals.

No I'm not. I'm just helping them out a bit and am on the beta, I also did most of the video tutorials for the last release.

Womball
02-12-2009, 04:22 PM
Does Messiah have any sort of future plans for exporting to XSI? I'd love to use an animation program where I don't have to weightpaint.

rush123
02-12-2009, 05:38 PM
Womball,

You can already export/import through XSI -> File->Point Oven
In Messiah through 'savemorphsequence' and .mdd

R

Womball
02-12-2009, 06:20 PM
Does the mdd retain bones and weighting info from the Messiah? Also does Messiah have as many options for rendering as Mental Ray? And how well do the muscle bones work? I'd love to work with a muscle deform rig.

rush123
02-12-2009, 09:01 PM
Does the mdd retain bones and weighting info from the Messiah? Also does Messiah have as many options for rendering as Mental Ray? And how well do the muscle bones work? I'd love to work with a muscle deform rig.

I suggest that you have a look at the demo of Messiah, though I not sure if it’s Messiah version 3 demo. The question about rendering vs Mental Ray is subjective and I guess partly not relevant if you can take your stuff back and forth. Re rigs you should have a lot at some of Ulven’s rigs and the likes. Last of all here a quick example of Messiah example file taken into XSI

http://www.eggington.net/~messiah3d/Messiah-XSi_man.mov

Hope this helps

R

Womball
02-14-2009, 02:10 AM
I don't think they offer the demo anymore. I couldn't find it on the website.

jipe
02-14-2009, 02:17 AM
It's still there, the link is just "hidden". There's a Downloads link at the very bottom of the page that isn't in the top menu... here's the page:

http://projectmessiah.com/x4/downloads_ms_w_demo.htm

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