USATODAY: Star Wars Galaxies Profile

[j00st81]

interesting read if you are really interested in buying this game

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www.PKer.org SWG thread-

Copied this from a beta tester that posted in elsewhere..



Why SWG Will Lose Millions
Now, I'm just trying to help with this post. MMORPGs are as much of a business as any other game, so think of this as an effort to save you some money. Simply put, even ignoring the massive bugs in every game system, your game is not up to par with the industry average.

I'm going to go through all the problems with SWG that I can think of, so that maybe you can fix a few of them before release and keep your game alive for longer than a month.

Immersiveness

99% of the world is, simply put, a randomly generated mess that lacks any feeling. It's obvious, as soon as you leave a city, that no thought went into the world whatsoever. In place of actual content, we have "random" encounters constantly. Every 15 seconds you can be sure that a group of mobs will spawn in front of you. Mobs have no life of their own; they're generated just because the player is there, and it makes the game more like Asteroids than an MMORPG.

Trying to trick players by having a random number generator do your work for you is a poor, poor excuse for content. It will not fool anyone. There's a feeling you get in a game world when you explore and find new things around every turn... new structures, creatures, places with a purpose. Places designed by a human for interaction with humans. Having the game randomly place blobs of mobs everywhere will never, ever duplicate that feeling.

So right away, 99% of the game world is uninteresting. Yes you have nice graphics for your terrain. Good job. But let me tell you something I read while designing zones for a MUD some years back. In the MUD builder's manual, it said "everything must have a point and a story" (paraphrased). This is sage advice, not just for MUDs but for all games. In SWG, nothing has a point or a story (except for missions, which have stories, but I'll get to that).

You know what would have been the best thing for SWG? If you had FORGOTTEN GRAPHICS and just designed a good game. A good game is good whether it's text based or has the prettiest graphics in the world. The "oooh and ahh" factor doesn't last for long. Take "blockbuster" movies as an example. Every summer, movie makers spend billions of dollars cranking out big budget movies. We all know the result: most of them suck. Hard. They're contrived, with no story, no writing, nothing but pretty explosions. SWG is the blockbuster movie of the MMOG world.

SWG needs more premanent features. I'm not talking about a battlefield or theme park hidden 10,000 meters away between 9,999 meters of zero content. I'm talking about giving the world life. Those random globs of bandits that appear constantly when you're in the wilderness? Give some a permanent home. Make an outpost, complete with scouts on the outer perimiter, campfires inside and a boss in a building somewhere controlling it all. Make it permanent and then it will mean something. Getting to the middle of it and slaying the boss will mean something to a player. The player can say "I went there, I did that, yeah baby." It gives players a sense of pride. Destroying a camp that appears in front of you just like 500 others like it, with the same 5 bandits stading around it, means nothing.

That's the key really, making a world that is meaningful. Every little bit has to be special in some way. It has to be designed by human hands, and when other humans see it and experience it, they'll appreciate it.

Other immersiveness things

-You can't jump in SWG, or swim. Instead, jumping is an emote. These two things are the very basics of immersiveness in a 3D world. Players need to feel like they can interact with their environment. In SWG, they can't. I'll give you an example.

Every town is surrounded with these low walls with only a few openings in them to get out. These walls are only knee high for even a short player. They're very, very annoying, especially because you cannot jump over them. They're like invisible barriers, walls in a pac-man game, that constantly remind you that you are in a game, not real life. To be immersed, players need to forget that as much as possible.

The walls were a bad design decision, but they wouldn't have been if the fundamentals of a 3D world were included in SWG.

It's very troubling that the devs couldn't include something as basic as jumping into their engine.

One way to look at a game is as a challenge that must be solved. Great games provide freedom for the players to solve problems in as many ways possible. Take away something as simple as jumping or swimming and you take away very important ways that players feel out their environment.

-You can't attack most NPCs in cities. Being held accountable for your actions is arguably the greatest strength of an MMORPG. In one sense, players build up a reputation over time which adds another layer onto the game world. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about actions within the game world. You should be able to attack NPCs, even if they're so powerful they'll kill you in one hit. Why? Because that makes the world more real. It gives you the sense that every little thing you do is meaningful. That friendly trainer will kick your ass if you attack him. It makes everything more alive.

Missions

I know you wrote neat stories for some missions, and in a way, those stories are the best thing about SWG. Some are genuinely funny.

But the fun of reading the mission details doesn't last, as they're just another trip into the useless wilderness (or a trip to another city if it's a deliver mission). After your first mission you realize that they're quite mindless, and just a source of cash.

To decrease the immersion, there's a limited number of missions and they're repeated. The solution? It's obvious, guys. If you had a history and story for each planet, the solution would be there already. Missions would be a way to delve deeper into that history and participate in it. You could add progressive missions, where you complete one and get another, more difficult mission, that gives you more story and involves you more deeply in the planet's politics, story, whatever. (Yes, I know there's one progressive mission in Jabba's palace. Big deal. You can't have something like that in just one, or two, or 5 places inthe game, fellas. It has to be all over.)

Give players a chance to feel part of their world. You deliver a loaf of bread to an old woman, and in doing so meet her grandson. He's in trouble with the law, and needs you to help him get a message out of town. You deliver the message and realize he's involved in the rebellion when you reach the hideout. The people at the hideout ask you to help him escape from the town. You help, but you have to kill a few Emperial troopers in doing it. You become more trusted in the rebellion after that and are given a mission to assassinate an Imperial General. And on, and on. There, I just wrote a whole progressive mission for you. It's easy. SWG needs it.

Missions or quests are one of the best ways to get players deeply involved in a game (in fact, most single player games are based on a single evolving quest that the player must complete). Don't ignore their potential.

Combat

Like I said in the immersiveness section, there's no point in exploring. So there's no point to combat. There's no goal. Nothing to drive the player on to accomplish some great kill except for gathering bones and hides. Adding loot wouldn't solve this. The only solution is giving content and context to combat. Once again this boils down to making a more permanent world. Running out into the wilderness and killing big_fat_mob_00 doesn't mean anything: every player and his grandmother is going to have 500 big_fat_mobs generated for them too every time they leave a city. There needs to be permanence in a world for combat to mean anything.

Combat is awkward. There shouldn't be 2 different buttons for "attack" and "stop attack". It should be one button that toggles on and off. You should be able to change your target in combat. You should be able to hit escape and clear your target whether you're under attack or not. You should be able to sit while under attack (that's right, if something has aggro on you, you can't sit or log out).

It's almost impossible for a group to have a working healer. Besides having an impossible time trying to target people, the healer has to run back and forth trying to locate the person he's trying to heal so that he's close enough for it to work? You'll never have a good combat system because of this; grouping will always be zerging.

Player Crafting

The very basic machine that's supposed to allow players to sell goods, the bazaar, doesn't work. Why?

Because it has a 100 item limit. Combine that with the SEVEN DAY AUCTION SYSTEM and you have 100 CDEF pistols being sold on a 7 day auction, and bang, the market is useless for 7 days. Whether your item shows up or not in a search seems random. Players that want to sell high end goods have reverted to shouting "WTS uber rifles 5000 credits!" in the middle of town. Not that there's anything wrong with people shouting to sell things; there isn't, if they have no alternative. But if your game is designed with a market system and people are still forced to go out and shout because the market doesn't work, something is wrong.

I'm not going to go into the many flaws in the "economy" as people like to call it. Plenty of people have done that already and I've already made enough posts on it to be sick of it. Let's just say that the crafting system is the best thing SWG has going for it. More thought seems to have been put into it than anything else. When the game comes out it'll probably still be the best thing about it, so they should make it so that the economy isn't flooded with every kind of item within a week, making all that hard work worthless. If the game came out today, that's what would happen.

End Game

SWG has no end game. There really isn't anything a player can aspire to except becoming an overt and killing some other overts. The rate of advancement is so fast that mastering your class is hardly part of the game.

You devs have said that maxxing out your class is only the beginning of the game. Ok, where do we go from there? Battlefields? Is shooting people across a battlefield supposed to hold my attention for years? The life of an MMORPG should be years, unless you spent years in development so that player could get bored with it in a month.

Is shooting other overts supposed to hold my attention for years? What, exactly, IS supposed to keep me playing? Even as a beta tester after only a few weeks, logging on is a chore. No, it's not the bugs. If you've noticed, I haven't made one mention of bugs. My critique is all of the game as it is when "working as intended".

Shooting the same random mobs that appear for me when I leave a city is not a goal. Shooting people across a battlefield is not a goal. The game needs goals that players can aspire to right out of the box.

In original EQ, players had killing a dragon someday as something to aspire to, right out of the box. In DAoC, players had realm to realm combat, right out of the box. What can SWG players aspire to? There's no permanent world like there is in EQ, so players cannot have goals to conquer some mob or place someday. There's no PvP reward system like DAoC, so players can't aspire to becoming the greatest at PvP and having an in-game reward for it.

What, exactly, do players have to aspire to?

Keep in mind that this is coming from an experienced MMOG gamer. I've played multiplayer games since there was nothing but text based MUDs. At this point, like many 10+ year veterans of the industry, I can look at a game and see right away where it will fail and where it will succeed. And I honestly don't see SWG succeeding anywhere in the long run.

Hardcore Star Wars fans will play the game for a month, sure. But just because it's star wars doesn't mean it will hold their attention despite all its flaws. There are a LOT of Star Wars games out there. The hardcore Star Wars fan has plenty to choose from. What will make him choose SWG over all the others?

Game Stability

Now that I've talked about all the game systems as they would exist with no bugs, I'll talk about the bugs.

When soemone points out the many, many massive bugs that plague every game system in SWG, someone inevitably says, "You think this is bad? You should have seen EQ when it first came out!"

Well, there's a difference. EQ was the pioneer in the 3D MMORPG industry. They didn't have anyone to tell them what to do or how to do it. They didn't know how to make a server handle that many people, or how to make sure the graphics would work when there were 50 other players on screen. They had to figure it all out on their own.

That was a long time ago. Not only has the industry made leaps and bounds since then, but SWG actually has people from EQ working on their staff! They aren't baby-faced college kids straight out of freshman year, these guys are supposed to be the best of the best of MMORPG design veterans, gathered form games like UO and EQ.

What happened guys? One of you must know how to set up a database so it doesn't crash the server every 3 hours. One of you must have designed a quest system at one time. Some of you helped design the most successful MMORPGs out there. What happened? On top of all the things missing from the game, don't any of you know how to set up a server so that it's stable?

The last successful MMORPG, DAoC, was stable throughout beta and shipped stable. Why? Because it was a second generation MMOG, and they learned from the past, and they made a stable gae like modern game designers should be able to do.

That's all I can think of for now. If I had another couple hours I could come up with a lot more.

Hey, it's not my millions of dollars that will be lost. It's not even my 50 dollars that will be lost, because I'm not buying the game. Thank god I know friends in beta. ;P

[Agent D]

Well, in response to what you just posted (which I had read earlier in the week)...

It is still a very fun game, and definitely the best MMORPG I've played so far. A lot of what that guy is saying is true, but I'm sure if we give the devs 1-3 months to sort out the issues and add content it'll be a lot better.

If you really want to buy the game, get it. If you're not sure, wait a month or two.

[Dark Lee]

There are a bunch of things plain wrong in that copied "review" post..
Things that even make me wonder how long the guy's been in beta...but I don't even think I want to know, I have the feeling he's too set in his opinion on the game that to try and give my view would have use...

I'll write a response for others reading it, but for now I'll just advise them to find and compare other reviews..

I can agree on a few things he mentions though, and will comment on those as well.

The few things I'll comment on are:

Immersiveness isn't the way the enemies spawn, isn't the way a storyline evolves...(in SWG you make your own story.....like it is in most mmorpgs, but they just hide it better)
It is how when walking by (non aggressive) monsters they notice you, even come check you out or sniffle at you..
Or walk through a pirate camp, when you have a negative popularity score with pirates...have the leader spot you and shout at you "You won't sneak by here again" and start firing at you...
(but will leave others in your group alone if they dont shoot back)

Immersiveness is the way a droid will come up to fix a broken pipe or computer nearby...
Its small ants walking in the sand of tatooine that will walk around your feet if they're in the way, its trees dropping leaves when you pass under them...

Immersiveness is how you build your own house, build or buy furniture to put in it...and can actually USE most of the furniture..SIT on the couch, SIT on the chairs...

Immersiveness is LISTENING to the music a player entertainer creates...yes creates...a PLAYER, not a NPC stuffed in a corner....

Granted, the random spawn thing is glaring...yet its not everywhere a random affair...places enough where things arent as random...
A good idea for the camp that he mentions...problem is...from the information I had, there are such places (albeit not many yet), I know of at least one cave on Corellia, that has permanent inhabitants, a tribe, that even has its own boss, guarding a good useable item...
So types of the camps you mention ARE there...just not as many...(yet?)

Guess what? you CAN swim in SWG, just can't drown or dive, as it is in all other MMORPGs that I know of.
Jumping, true, I miss it...and am clueless on why they left it out...


Missions? Oh my, how wrong he is..

You CAN attack/kill NPCs, at least most of them (not the ones who have a setup shop/training facility, that all players need to be able to get to), the trick here, once again is, how is your standing with the concerned NPC?

If you play a smuggler, and rob/kill every NPC you can get to, your townspeople standing falls...get it below a level and any NPC in town is targettable....but OOPS now town security NPCs will come at you too!

If you constantly take missions to thwart or kill thugs/pirates....they will get a strong dislike to you and now they will come after you...

How about imperials? shoot enough of them (if you can...that armor isn't as weak as in the movies...) and they'll gun you down every chance they get...

Sure missions are a random affair, with random payment, but it DOES give one something to DO to earn the cash....unlike other mmorpgs that either let you instantly convert any item into a pile of gold, or where you're plain forced to wander around and slaughter whatever to get the gold you need...

Back to player crafting...oops...the Auction system is only meant for high priced items like houses...normal stuff can be sold under "Instant sale", yes they're limited to 7 day timeslot, not sold by then, np, it'll stay in inventory, and you know to lower the price...

Combat, we are sure he played, yes?
Switching targets, HMMM first thing you learn that it is the TAB key...
Fun bit here is not to forget that any stacked special move you planned ahead takes time to do on the then selected target...so pile too many and yes need to clear the stack before switching targets...

A healer? grouped with the wrong people it seems, many people have a form of healing, just need to make the medication beforehand, which needs, yes Bones Hides and other materials, the materials you grab off off the wildlife you killed during missions.
No point to this you say? if the materials werent gathered, the medics or any other crafting profession would be dead in the water...

Whats this, no endgame? which mmorpg DOES have an endgame? have an endboss?
You can aspire to do many things in SWG...go for one profession untill you've mastered it (now that "gone gold XP-requirements" have gone in effect, this will take months at the least!), then drop that profession and take on another!
Nothing to aspire to kill? hah, why not dream of taking on a Krait Dragon in your own self? Or go find yourself a Dark Jedi-witch on Dathomir, go kill her see if you can do it day 1 in retail...

Seasoned MMORPG player? gosh sounds more like a seasoned FPS player who stepped in the game for 2 days for all the wrong reasons...

No, EQ wasn't the pioneering MMORPG, it was Ultima Online...EQ was only pioneering cuz it had the first 3D engine....and EQ was plain HORRID on its launch...all that had nothing to do with the 3D engine...
And no, DaoC wasn't the most successfull MMORPG...afaik EQ still reigns...

But, true, SWGs servers were the most instable factor the last 2 weeks...worries me how many times they went down so short before release time...but yet...I do assume they're BETA servers, and the ones where the release code will run on are thoroughly cleaner and more stable...


So, I hope these counter points shed some better light on things than that post was doing....I can understand if someone dislikes the game, but shouldn't bring out wrong information that plainly doesn't have truth to it after you played for more then a few days...

[cgman27]

Originally posted by Dark Lee
So, I hope these counter points shed some better light on things than that post was doing....I can understand if someone dislikes the game, but shouldn't bring out wrong information that plainly doesn't have truth to it after you played for more then a few days...


Well, I can tell you from experience. PLayed it for a month now, and I will not be spending my money on it.

I do find it interesting to see your fanboy response though, and got a good laugh since you obviously just joined this 3d forum to counterpoint a bad review.

[victor throe]

uh-oh

nerd fight

quick

someone give them a Dr Pepper each



:)



aaaaah


id be happy with the old vector graphics xwing game

best arcade game ever

[Agent D]

cgman27: There's no reason to attack forum members just for being optimistic about a game. Jeez.



It's true, a lot of that guy's pasted remarks aren't very well thought out. His endgame arguement for example:

Aside from Dark Lee's (good) arguements, SWG has a real and definite endgame to aspire to, outdoing many other MMORPGs: Gain force sensitivity, survive for a few months building your skills, and become a Jedi Master.

Besides, he's not even taking into consideration the content and changes the Devs will make in the months after release. I'm sure we'll see plenty of unique enemy strongholds and special missions.

[Dark Lee]

Originally posted by cgman27
Well, I can tell you from experience. PLayed it for a month now, and I will not be spending my money on it.

I do find it interesting to see your fanboy response though, and got a good laugh since you obviously just joined this 3d forum to counterpoint a bad review.

Am not cointerpointing a bad review as such, am correcting plain wrong info he's spouting in the world...

As I said before, if you don't like it, fine, no problem by me, just don't say things that aren't true, it'll only misguide the ppl interested in a game...

True, I do like the game, fanboy I wouldn't call myself, as there are enough nasty quirks in the game that I do not like...but I didn't reply to set down my own review, just to comment on what was posted...

And no, I didn't join just for that, my reasons are my own, but oh how easy it is to judge someone on the number of posts he made on a forum eh? :thumbsdow

[j00st81]

thanks for correcting, I was unaware that that quote had some wrong information, didn't really thought of that, considering the source was a beta tester :shrug:

[BiTMAP]

all this stuff you are correcting, or saying "give the dev 1-3 months" are things that Honestly should be done before release. Isn't going gold supposed to me, this game is as Good as we know it can be, then if there arises NEW problems that where not solved in beta then "maybe" we'll fix them later? That his not how its supposed to be people!!

I probebly won't ever play this game, so its their loss.

[Agent D]

Originally posted by BiTMAP
all this stuff you are correcting, or saying "give the dev 1-3 months" are things that Honestly should be done before release. Isn't going gold supposed to me, this game is as Good as we know it can be, then if there arises NEW problems that where not solved in beta then "maybe" we'll fix them later? That his not how its supposed to be people!!

Welcome to the world of massive multiplayer online games! ;)

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