the golden ratio - how to use?

[ZacD]

First off, I'm not expert, but I've more than heard of the golden ratio and its uses. The basics are the golden triangle and golden rectangle (Just try to use them in you art or compusition where you can). Here's a great site that shows where it has been used in art and what not. http://jwilson.coe.uga.edu/EMT668/EMAT6680.2000/Obara/Emat6690/Golden%20Ratio/golden.html

[SmallPoly]

I'm not the greatest artist in the world, but I really do not put any stock into the golden rectangle/golden spiral/golden proportion. Sure they show up in nature along with the Fibonacci sequence but you can find any shape or proportion you want if you look hard enough and ignore everything else that doesn't fit the ideal.

I have seen plenty of amateur images that attempt to use it and still suck just as much as if they didn't.

Good composition has more to do with leading the eye around an image with edge flow, color, contrast and detail, and with getting your point across.

[Drag-N]

I agree with velenosangue... The rule is simple; If it looks good, it is good:
Aesthetics is not mathematics. Luca Pacioli believed the golden ratio to be something special, and therefore many artists and architects from the Renaissance started incorporating it into their works... If mathematics could create wonderful paintings, somebody would probably have programmed a software and generated every combination possible with the golden ratio and platonic solids to create abstract art..

Fact is, outside geometry, there is nothing special about the golden ratio. It's a myth revived by the Da Vinci Code.

[DizzyJ]

I think the golden ratio is a great thing to think about when you start thinking about composition. So many beginning artists put the focal point of their image in the center. The golden rule guides you away from that. But composition is more involved than just where things go and slavish devotion to theory only works if you're Mondrian and working when he did (anybody doing Mondrian today would be making decorative art, which is great, but rarely what an ambitious artist wants to achieve).

As to the question of how to use it, take a look at the link Zac-Donald provided. You don't need to understand the math to visualize the geometric examples provided there overlaying your composition. Think about what each part of the composition will be in the section (spiral, triangle, rectangles: whichever one you chose). Is the the part that you want the eye to move towards in the focal point? Later on, when you start with shading, does the contrast support the eye movement you want?

[Lunatique]

The thing with composition is that in the end, it all comes down to instinct. Theories and the rules will help those who are completely lost and have no instinct for it to begin with, because it'll at least grant those without the instinct a way to approximate decent composition, but it will not grant them the ability to come up with brilliant composition. In fact the most brilliant compositions I've seen are from those who breaks just about every rule there is in composition yet the results are compelling. It all comes down to the artist's ability to arrange priorities of visual focus/interest in an image, along with the ability to visualize scenes with depth in a way that creates the most interesting image. It's about dividing up the blank canvas and balancing it with interesting variations in size, shapes, values, colors, edges, distance, and so on. It's about knowing which elements and shapes and colors and values you want to allow to dominate your image, and what you counter that main focus with.

In a way, you're like a party planner--you have all these guests and food and live music and the venue, and you have to figure out who should sit with who, when to play what songs during the party, what lighting to use, what food to serve and in what order...etc. In the case of artists dealing with composition, your guests and food and music are colors, values, shapes, edges...etc, and the venue is the canvas.

[mister3d]

Thank you all for you replies, I read them all and agree with many points. Of course, the golden section is not a universal solution. Lately I read quite a lot about composition and as Dizzyj pointed out, it's a good starting point about increasing the tension. So, among with the rule of thirds, it may be used as one more way to look at possible placing of objects. Of course I understand that the central position or in any corner, or far away from the golden section or the rule of thirds is suitable for certain, and many, cases. But as I missed many things when studied art (mainly due to the lack of good resources in our country at that time) I want to know it.
Some good example when any rule stops working is when an object becomes big enough, so it cannot be considered as something close to a point, so it dominates the image, whereas the rule or thirds presumes kind of a balance.
Still, I find the rule or thirds and the golden section good starting points in bringing some tension in a picture, the same about some horizon placements different from the central position. Shame I didn't know this, so I find these basic things quite interesting and helpful.
Lunatique I agree with you about intuition, but I think having some compositional theory won't hurt, it just does not guarantee becoming a great artist, though I didn't claim that. :)

[Drag-N]

Rather than learning mathematics, learn everything here:
http://www.imaginefx.com/02287754331360267539/tutorial.pdf

[Revitgnome]

I wouldn't knock the golden ratio, also referred to as the golden section, the divine proportion. It's time honored, and from a mathematic standpoint quite beautiful, although I must say that the number Phi 1.6180339887..... seems rather intimidating. It has been utilized by the great architects and artists throughout history, and I must say that the proportions of the art and architecture are exquisite.

Examples:
-The Last Supper by Leonardo
-The Pantheon in Rome
-The Cathedral of Notre Dame


Just to simply disregard it, I feel is irresponsible. With this said however, the golden ratio is in art and architecture a composition rule, and rules are meant to be broken, but I feel that there is merit in looking at the divine proportion, and understanding it prior to breaking away from the rules.

--Cheers

[Drag-N]

So you believe it to be something special? Do you seriously believe it to be "true art" or a law of nature? Well, it was revered in Antiquity (thus also during the Renaissance)... But, I believe it is ridiculous to call it a rule or some kind of divine law; It's no more a law than other aesthetic systems and tools like, for instance, Feng Shui...

It's a mere tool... And, I think it would be more of a burden than a helper...

[Drag-N]

But, for those obsessed with the divine proportions... Here is a plugin for Photoshop which is perfect for you..:

http://powerretouche.com/Divine_proportion_tutorial.htm

Edit: There probably is a free version on the web as well... So, just search for it...

[Revitgnome]

Well Drag-N. Rules are created by us....humans, so the Golden Ratio is just one rule of many developed by us. We could just as whole heartedly believe that the composition merits of base 2 is just as insightful....after all why not, base 2 geometry is the initial shape from which the golden section is derived.

In the case of composition theory, which is the basis for this thread, understanding the rules that are out there allows us to better understand composition. We can then break away from what are traditional rules, if we should so prefer.

All I am saying is, to simply disregard it, I believe would be irresponsible.


--Cheers

[Drag-N]

Yes, and my point is that it's not really all that valuable when it comes to composition...
Why bother being so specific? Use the rule of thirds and adjust the composition till you get the best results possible; It is much easier.. Adjusting to 1.618 is unnecessary nitpicking..

[Buexe]

I think what some people do not understand is the difference between artistic and scientific research. Artists like Leonardo and many others have searched for formulas that can ( note: can! ) help creating a better image/building/work of art. The golden ratio is a more popular tool to structure things, because it relates things to each other in a harmonic way. A complex piece of art may consist of many things and composition helps giving all these things an inner structure and make them relate to each other (Of course that doesn`t mean if you have some sort of scheme in your composition that it is automatically "awesome"). The reason why many artists applied/apply the golden ratio in their works is because of it`s harmonic proportions. For those who have not yet understood the golden ratio means in words ( not just some number) maybe this helps:

The golden ratio divides a line into two parts where the ratio between the smaller to the bigger part is the same as the bigger part to the whole line.

This makes it appear "harmonic". And a trained eye can divide a line into the golden ratio pretty exact without using a calculator. Whether a person "likes" it or not or if they prefer to use their "instincts" or another ratio concept in composition is on a different page. Having a concept is prolly more important in the first place ; ). Art history is full of rules or dogmas that were eventually broken. Or as a art teacher of mine once said: "In art everything is okay, except being lazy".

[Lunatique]

People who effortlessly without having to even think about it, breaks all the rules and still make our jaws drop with the brilliance of their creativity = geniuses.

People who ignore the rules and end up doing crappy work = rest of us mere mortals.

If you are a genius, you probably already know it because people will tell you how brilliant you are.

Otherwise, learn the rules because they are distillations of hundreds of years of knowledge hard-won by countless artists and scientists--many of whom were/are more intelligent, knowledgeable, and talented than we could ever hope to be. It would pretty stubborn and stupid to not try and benefit from the hard work of those who came before us.

Whether or not you should break the rules or ignore the rules depends on how strongly your gut instinct is screaming at you. If you know with every fiber of your being that a particular painting should be composed a particular way that breaks all the rules, and you are confident that you are right, then do it. But if most of the artists you respect later tell you that your composition sucks (as opposed to telling you how brilliant your thinking-outside-the-box composition is), then you know your gut instinct is wrong. When that happens, buckle down and respect the rules for a while until you feel confident to stray away from established conventions again. You might always end up sucking when you don't follow the rules, or maybe at some point in your life you finally find your own unique voice that's brilliant yet apart from established conventions.

[Revitgnome]

Very Very eloquently put, Lunatique. You exactly hit the nail on the head.



--Cheers

[derwonder]

if everyone used the golden ratio in all their paintings it would become really boring as everthing would look the same, I would rate it as a good to know but never use as a rule, if you paint a beautiful lady it would still look beautiful even without a golden ratio right?

[mister3d]

Thank you all for your input (and for a plug-in suggestion). As some time has passed since I created the topic, I look at this more like on balance and tension problem. The main problem is that placing a subject just where golden section goes is not always possible due to its size at least: when the subject is quite big, it just dominates the picture and the rule does not apply. As well as other factors, such as where character looks\walks, what other elements are in the composition complicate the balance.
So frankly speaking, I kind of don't feel the urge to use it currently, though I will continue to study it and will try the plug-in. I know my composition still sucks, so I will gradually learn it with years, and will compare both methods. The composition just so much more complex as a whole.

[Cati]

This was an interesting thread to read.

As I've lately studied a lot of composition theory and I just wanted to make a quick remark about golden section. Before I started investigating the ratio I thought it was the most boring thing.. I had seen a lot of art that was composed in a way that screamed GOLDEN SECTION! Now as I've studied and examined over and over how the "old masters" used it - I have realised that using it right demands a lot of understanding. I can say that I'm awed by the golden section but I still don't know how to use it well.

The golden rule isn't really that obvious when you look at a work of a master. It's not actually just calculating and mathematics - It's about knowing where to draw a line.

"Rules are not the fetters of genius, they are the fetters of men with no genius" - Sir Joshua Reynolds (y. 1767)


I include a compositional armature (based on the musical ratio, golden rule) that was used in the times of old masters.. I've broken the armature into three pictures so it doesn't get too full of lines.. See how carefully it was composed - so subtle... :buttrock:

http://koti.welho.com/klouhio/tutorials/portrait1.pnghttp://koti.welho.com/klouhio/tutorials/portrait2.pnghttp://koti.welho.com/klouhio/tutorials/portrait3.png

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