Dear Abby, some advice please!!!

[BubbleB0y]

Hey all, I've been getting a little frustrated about pursuing a career in animation and question whether I have what it takes to become one. I know that it takes hard work to get to a professional level but recently, my entry for the 11SecondClub.com's monthly competition has really got me down. Earlier this year I submitted an entry for February. The overall rating it received was about a 3.9. I can see why it got that score. But since then, I've been practicing and working on it and 10 months later, I feel that I improved only to score even lower than my first one! It received a 3.8. I was planning on doing Animation Mentor if I am accepted for the Spring, but now I feel it might be a waste of money since my animation has scored even lower. Any brutally honest advice would be appreciated, as I do not want to waste any more time or money on pursuing a career I cannot succeed at. Here's a link to Youtube. Please watch it in high quality also, I worked hard on the lip sync and it gets fuzzy with all the compression. For now, I think I will not take AM...

YouTUBE Link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKgNT6jPG6I

[artmont]

Hey BubbleB0y, how's it going?
Saw your topic here and I'd like to add just some words. I totally agree with what Baradara said.
I'm an Animation Mentor student (Class 5 now) and if you think about applying to the school, all you need is a passion for animation, believe me, most of people that join AM know pretty much NOTHING about maya or animation. And they do good at school.
By no means, I want to sell the school here, i'm not paid for that, I'm telling you just my experience til now, one year by now since I started it in January 2008.
Running the 11secondclub.com twice, I see you got the passion and all you need is inspiration. It's not easy to be and stay inspired for long, with people judging our work constantly. That's something we at school try to do all the time with each other, that's why I think AM is an umbelieveble place. Of course there are other schools that are the same in all aspects, so it's a matter of finding the right school for you.
Animation is not easy, neither it is the way people judge your work. But I think it's part of the game. As animators/artists, we're constantly putting our souls and hearts in our pieces. If you feel you're doing it, I think you're able to learn more. One step at a time, all the way.
If you feel you want to apply for AM, or another animation school, go for it. I can talk only about AM, I went for it, and I don't regret.
Keep learning and practicing, animation is not a race.
All the best man.
Cheers!
Artur

[CGIPadawan]

I personally think this is very good animation.

I also looked at the winner for this December Competition and I honestly think the gap between you and the winner is not very large.

If anything, I would have thought making human actors with hair and clothes should have counted for something. But the problem is the 11 Second Club resorts to majority vote. There is no Criteria.

And that is the core of your problem I believe: The Audience.

"Public Voting" is a strange mechanic because Audiences are strange people. The truth is everything we do is offered to an Audience. But at the same time, you need to also filter yourself from taking too much stock in them. They are bound to look for things you weren't expecting. They may find things to like about your work that you weren't sure about. And sometimes they will hate things you thought were great about your work.

Personally I keep my own Feedback Quality Circle of people (At PIXAR they call this a "Brain Trust") and these are people who I have to try out concepts, mostly on paper to see if a "sample audience" might like it. But even then, I don't blindly follow them because like Baradara said: "The only judge is you and you only." You realize some people like Red and other people like Blue.

Again, public voting is not really Gospel when it comes to this because I get enough conflicting reviews from just asking eight people what they think about one piece of Concept Art. Imagine trying to get hundreds of people to agree on the same thing.

Having said that though, you can ring enough bells and sometimes the race comes to you and you'll be surprised cause you didn't drive as hard that time as when you finished 10th or lower. Life's like that sometimes.

If you want to be better then you will have to think like a Paradox. Study the winners, study the audience.... but at the same time, learn to accept your view as an artist as paramount to your work.

Cheers and good luck. :)

[baradara]

You got talent in 3D animation. It's obvious from the short you posted. Don't let anyone confuse you! Don't put too much emphasis on that website, the score doesn't measure all the hard work you've put into your work. The only judge of that is you and you only!
It's hard to break in the 3D animation business but with hard work and a lot of patience everything is possible. If you strongly believe in what you are doing then you should try even harder. Nothing comes easy, and if it does - it means that you are on top of your game. I know that sometimes it seems pointless to keep trying but in the end if you really want it, you have to fight for it!

[Littleberu]

You're comparing yourself with the cream of the crop.

Try to continue refining your animation skill, but also try to work on your modeling or texturing or anything, really.

The truth is, the animation isn't really the problem. Your acting is severely lacking, the staging also is awkward.

Anyway, use the 11 second club more as a practice than an answer. Also, I did animation-mentor myself for 3 semesters, and I was worse than you right now. Although I did not end up really good, you have the potential to be. Just don't expect much from the school than from yourself ; you'll have to play "all-in" and give it your all if you expect to get a job after.

Also, lip sync is the lesser problems. In the end, over-animating a lip sync is even worse than no lip sync at all. Refer to Richard Williams book Animator's Survival Guide and his chapter on mouth to see what I'm talking about.

[BubbleB0y]

The thing is, I don't have money for AM right now. I already applied to AM and was planning on taking out a loan. Now that my entry for 11SecondClub did not even improve from the one I did 10 months earlier, I just feel it would be too risky for me to get in a hole and keep pursuing a career. You see, I'm a realist, and I've been reading about the animation industry and about how MoCap and outsourcing is going to make it even harder to find work as an animator. And with all that, I read that there isn't even a place for entry level animators at this time.

Sorry if I sounded like I was complaining. I'm stressing about whether I should take AM and put myself in a hole when the news from the industry isn't good for me. I was planning on using this December entry as a gauge to where I am at in animation, and the results tell me I shouldn't take the risk of not being able to pay back this loan.

Don't worry though, I know that Food Stamps can be sold for %50 cash value on the streets...

[Sweetbix]

Why should it have improved? Have you been doing heaps of animation in between times, working on your lipsync and acting etc? If you have then yeah this would be discouraging. If you haven't... well you shouldn't have expected to have made a big improvement anyway.

If you really want to become an animator then nothing should be stopping you.

From what I understand even with mocap you still need animators in there to tidy things up - it's not 100% accurate and to make it look as good as it can you still need an animator in there using his or her skills. I wouldn't worry about mocap rendering your chosen profession useless - doesn't look like these guys have.

[CGIPadawan]

Joseph, life doesn't get easier as you try to improve yourself and make a living. It gets more difficult.

That's a fact. If life were easy and no one tried things we wouldn't even be talking about computer animation. Uncertainty is an often used word when describing this form of animation when it was started back in the late 1970's.

It is true that perhaps it is very difficult to find the kind of work and life you envision right now. But that does not mean you need to hit the big red button. There may be other ways to achieve these things.

Nothing great ever came from "taking it easy".

At any rate, I am not pleading with you. I am only saying that if you lose faith in yourself, no one will have faith in you. And in that sense it will not matter what profession you take up. If you were my dentist, for example, and you started vacillating about how your tooth extraction skills "didn't improve" then I wouldn't be seeking appointments with you.

Cheers.

[BubbleB0y]

Well, I do really enjoy animation. I'm already sure that I'll continue and keep practicing this year. The problem right now is deciding whether to dedicate another 18 months of schooling in AM, from loans that will accrue lots of interest. THAT, with no promise of employment, is what is the main issue right now! That is why this December entry was so important to me. But thanks for all the helpful comments, hopefully I will make the right decision.

But as for now, it's back on some street corner hustling...

[Sweetbix]

No job is ever guaranteed, so why should animation be any different? Jeez, I know a guy who would clean offices part time and he had trouble finding work.

You didn't answer my question though :D You say the December entry was mega important... did you work hard for it? Did you practice your animation, acting, lipsync in between times? You HAVE to put the work in, you can't just expect to get better while you don't practice.

[BubbleB0y]

Yes I did work hard for it. Took up the whole month while others did it in 2 weeks or less. Filmed myself with a digital camera on a tripod too. Don't worry, I'm no quitter either... just thought it was a lot better than my Feb entry, and voters gave it a lower rating. Just have to try and learn from my mistakes. That's why I stopped giving critiques and voting for others, when I can't see my own animation for what it is. When my animations start to improve, and not get worse, I'll try and help others out. For now, I'll just keep my mouth shut.

[CGIPadawan]

Well you know what, you don't really NEED Animation Mentor.

It's true that there should be Risk Management.

So maybe you don't take up Animation Mentor.
But you can try to find out as much as you can about what they do at Animation Mentor and then try to see what you can take up on your own.

If you can't get into an Academy, then make your own "Academy" and "enroll" yourself in it. ;)
While doing that maybe you can take up a smaller job or something to keep "the engines running". Jim Carrey used to wait tables or something, or so I heard.

No one will think the poorer of you for it. It's just all part of the plan.
Hope that helps. :)

Only the test of fire will build good steel. Just don't forget us if you become successful and own your own FX/Animation house one day. :P

[Sweetbix]

That sounded really selfish, Bubbleboy D: By no means do I think I'm the greatest animator in the world but I think by critting other peoples work you can start to look at your own with a fresh eye and think "Well I told that guy his anticipation was shocking... maybe I could use a bit more work on this part."

By working hard I mean like... what have you been doing in the 10 months between challenges? Have you been working at bettering yourself? Who cares what voters say tbh, did you think it was better? Do you think you improved? Be CRITICAL of your own work so you can start to see what others do. FFS don't base your life on one bloody challenge. Do 3 more months of it or something instead of having these massive breaks in between things.

Someone said it earlier - you need to have faith in yourself before others have faith in you. Stop being so down on yourself and work harder!

[NickGooch]

My words of advice:

If you really enjoy animation than pursue it. this does not mean you have to go to a SCHOOL! pick up some books (Animators Survival Kit is a GREAT start) and use forums to get crits. take what people say and understand what your problems are.

If you want some crits for your animation and i think thats what you really need. AND you need to learn to CRIT other people, thats where you really learn new ways of looking at things. Here you go

Man:
1. everything is to stiff. your not using the whole back to get interesting poses.
2. facial animation is amazing GREAT JOB! note: most people look at the eyes first to see what the char is looking at. because of the shot placement it is hard to tell where he is looking this makes it hard to read the whole "realism" of the scene.
3.3rd pose "arms to sides" seems forced.
4. 4th pose "slam hands on table" Would of added a lot if you pushed his head into her personal space. He is not interacting he is just making actions.
5."its just an outline right?" arms and hands are slowly floating up, very unnatural looking
6. Ending is nice and strong. I would of had him again get more in her face instead of "shocking backwards" as you have him. She is at fault and he is angry. what do people do when there angry? they envade your personal bubble mr bubble boy.

Woman:
1. looks believable at start. nice job on the "no"
2. "an outline" looks like an attempt for her to be doing the whole "lightbulb" idea pose. Doesn't work well because the two have not made eye contact yet and it feels like she trying hard to not look at the man. this makes the viewer feel like they are not connecting. After viewing again it NEVER looks like they make eye contact EVER. thats a very bad thing!
3. on "its just not typed" I would have her look at the man.
4. Rest of the animation looks good, minus some of the hand/arm in parts where it feels floaty

Overview:
Your doing a great job of making things look believable as far as motions go. Your just not connecting your actors. Some of the poses could use a revamp.
One rule of thumb I like to use is this; Try to over animate everything make it as exageratted as you possibly can. If your leaning back, lean back even further on one foot! push the boundries. You can always go back and say "woah thats too much" but if you dont try "too much" chances are you arn't going far enough.

Just because your concentration is the animation DO NOT forget how IMPORTANT staging is! nobody wants to watch a football game on tv as if they were in a nosebleed seat the whole time. They add tons of cuts and fancy angles. Use that! put in some well composed/framed shots.


give up if your hating it. Keep going if any of this info makes you want to work harder. Plane and simple.

Cheers :bounce:

[WyattHarris]

I'll have to ditto what everyone else is saying but more importantly I need to stress...

Screw the ratings! You hardly ever see a public vote result in what something is really worth. The animation you posted is pretty good but I compared it to the winning entry, which only scored a 6.7 itself, and there is quite a difference between the two. Here's an exercise you may want to try. See if you can copy the winning entry. Master copies are a long held tradition in art history, I don't see why animation should be any different. This way you can do a direct comparison between your result and what you are shooting for. The problem may not be in your skill but in your concept. Copying someone elses animation will eliminate that step.

And again, ignore ratings. It's nice to get recognition but in the end if your happy with the results forget about everyone else. You should be your absolute worst critic and judging by this thread I don't think that's a problem. :D

Good Luck and practice, practice, practice.

[BubbleB0y]

You're right, I still feel I improved somewhat in terms of facial expressions, overlapping action, and giving flexibility to body parts. I just felt bad because I looked at the rating too much, which said I got worse. No biggie, and as far as knowledge goes, I definately got better. After this animation, I know how to slow in, slow out, accelerate and decelerate, and use the graph editor to get good looking arcs.

As far as trying to copy the winning animation, I feel I can do that in terms of setting keys and the poses. But I think you mean, can I come up with the acting and posing on my own?

[Sweetbix]

I think he means copying it exactly - people do this all the time for studying anatomy etc (ie Bridgeman or Loomis studies) so I don't see why you couldn't for animation. Makes sense, you'd probably learn a fair bit.

[Azereus]

3 is better than 1 dude.

i've known some animators thate are 1 and they got a job.
Believe me they screwed some publicities here in argentina. Just ask yourself, what is that you want? do you actually love doing animation? looking at every detail and stuff?
Human animation is not easy, you have to many movements to control and in your entry you did it good.

Take what WyattHarris said.

The winning entry was 6 points, that means 3 more than you. You are half way to win ;)

[WyattHarris]

As far as trying to copy the winning animation, I feel I can do that in terms of setting keys and the poses. But I think you mean, can I come up with the acting and posing on my own?

What Sweetbix said. My painting skills are lacking so lately I've been practicing by trying to copy William Bouguereau's paintings digitally. He is my favorite artist, which helps, and his quality is so great that I've got a very high mark to shoot for. Plus I don't need to think about "what" the painting should be, that's already done, I can focus on "how" to achieve his results. You can get seriously bogged down when inventing a concept. If you're simply trying to improve your skills cut that step out.

Here are some other benifits I see. Converting "real life" into a flat 2D image is not easy. Yes, you used reference of yourself on video but the human form has an infinate number of subtle nuances and changes that can make you nuts as you decide what to include and exclude. Copying someone else's animation cuts it down to what is in that 11 secs. You'll be able to see every item that needs animating and plan your rig around that.

Also, in most "Making of..." videos I've seen, the animator doesn't do all of the conceptual work. Someone does that concept, another person does the model, the terturing, the rig and finally the animator takes that and goes to work. Even the shot is already laid out by the director so the decisions on "what" the animation will be are done. The animator then focuses on "how" to achieve that result.

Okay reality check, I know there are lots of small shops out there that have one person doing many of these jobs. But since you are focusing on animation and you also want to study animation I'd proceed in that fasion.

I'm no expert, certainly not in animation, but I was a professor at a local college for 6 years. Teaching I know a good bit about. :D

Good luck Bubbleboy.

[BubbleB0y]

Okay, well, making an exact copy is not too difficult when I can use the winning piece as a complete frame by frame storyboard. I made an exact copy, including the lip sync, using only the male character. If I can do one character, you know I can do the other one. I uploaded to youtube and will post the link below. The compression blurs things up a bit, and I don't know how to make a high quality youtube link. I think it does it automatically. Here is the link:

YouTube LINK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm7PJ5ktJ_k)

The high quality version shows me copying the lip sync exactly too. Anyways, here is my main gripe. I feel like I know the software package Maya very well. I have a good work flow. I feel like since my animation isn't any good, then it must be because of my acting choices and my posing and timing. This is very frustrating, I feel like I need an acting class because from the technical standpoint, I feel like I can do almost anything. I would love to try and prove this too. Does anyone know where I can join a group project where there are quality modelers and riggers and storyboarders? I feel like I can do whatever asked to, except act out my own animations at this point.

I feel like if I can just take the acting classes in AM, then I can do well...

[CGIPadawan]

A - Always
B - Be
C - Creative

Always. Be. Creative. So you need acting lessons? Take acting lessons. You don't need Animation Mentor. The nearest two-bit drama club can get you similar feedback.

Failing that? Act in front of a mirror, and mimic something you saw on TV.
The solutions are everywhere. But I can't make you do it.

You have to do it yourself.
Cheers. Signing out.

[BubbleB0y]

ABC? Hehehe.... So what do you think Wyatt and Sweetbix? Is that what you meant by copy?

[Sweetbix]

lol trying to be smart with us? No one said anything about copying for the rest of your life. You copy and make studies to learn, once you know what you're doing then it's time to be creative.

All in all you do what you want to do. If you want to be a smart ass about things and tell the people trying to help you that they're wrong then that's cool too :)

As for your video I'm having trouble watching it the whole way through but it looks fine. I don't agree with the point about "If I can copy one then I can copy the other", that's lazy :p

[WyattHarris]

Hmm, I don't think he's trying to "smart off" just venting, but eh moving along.

That animation is fine. I think that exercise shows that you have the skills to animate. Practice some more as you've only got half the animation done. Then practice more. Now if your concepts are not as good as you like then now you know the area you need to work on. But that doesn't mean stop animating while you beef up another area. That's my problem, I get sidetracked on one area and neglect what I've already got skill in.

Whatever concept you come up with look at it and think "over acting" and rubber man. In other words think Jim Carry. :D Or something like that.

At this point its on you Bubbleboy. That's as good of advice as I can give. Stick to it and practice practice practice.

[BubbleB0y]

Thanks for the advice Wyatt. As far as being a smart ass? LoL, I already stated that having a frame by frame storyboard wouldn't make things that complicated. What would I be acting smart about? The winner did all the work! Jeez... I don't get some people. Anyways, good thread... finally come to an end!


Again, thanks for all the comments. Practice, practice, practice is what I really can use.

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