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JMarc
06-23-2003, 10:30 PM
http://www.luxology.net

Interesting tease!

minus
06-23-2003, 10:39 PM
What was mentioned in the video? --- I can't see it at work here on my ancient NT station here.

JMarc
06-23-2003, 10:42 PM
I'm still watching it and haven't seen any of the Lux tech yet. I was referring to the FAQ on the Lux site that gives a bit of teaser info on their new technology.

Check out the other "... re:Luxology" thread for tidbits on the videos.

RobertoOrtiz
06-23-2003, 10:45 PM
Gotta love his timing.
:hmm:

If it is a tool for character animation, how is it superior to
Kaydara?

-R

JMarc
06-23-2003, 10:53 PM
The only interesting thing Peebler says in the Keynote video is that in the Luxology technology they have moved a lot of the display computations from the GPU to the CPU.

Shade01
06-23-2003, 10:56 PM
Well, did you get the newsletter about MotionBuilder 5? Up until now the only difference between the Standard and Professional editions was the ommision of the SDK. Now it seems like they will really be deliniating the differences between the two packages by ommiting *a lot* of stuff from the standard edition, which is also the personal edition. This may give room for Luxology to offer something of comperable quality with more features.

paul k.
06-23-2003, 10:57 PM
I just saw Brad at the show but I couldn't get a real good look at what he was running his tests on. However he did refer to what they were testing as there new project, and it definately was not Lightwave that he was running......Granted I am on the outside, but, I think this is pretty bad news for Lightwave development unless the "New Project" is the next Lightwave?

takkun
06-23-2003, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by paul k.
I think this is pretty bad news for Lightwave development unless the "New Project" is the next Lightwave? I mentioned this in the other G5 thread, in the faq, they said that they aren't competing with the 3d platforms (i.e. Lightwave, Maya, 3ds Max, C4D) , they're making a program that "plays nice with others" . Most likely it will be competing with the likes of Motion Builder, Messiah, and Animatium. So many CA choices, my head is spinning.

Psyhke
06-23-2003, 11:08 PM
Well, whatever it is, what a marketing coup, eh? I mean, how do you get to present a yet-to-be product from a new, still-has-the-peach-fuzz on it company at a show like that? My hats off to Peebler on that one. :bowdown:

paul k.
06-23-2003, 11:17 PM
I mentioned this in the other G5 thread, in the faq, they said that they aren't competing with the 3d platforms (i.e. Lightwave, Maya, 3ds Max, C4D) , they're making a program that "plays nice with others" . Most likely it will be competing with the likes of Motion Builder, Messiah, and Animatium. So many CA choices, my head is spinning.

I know that we have already heard that NewTek is developing the next generations of Lightwave, and so on.... What I meant was that this is bad because there are some really talented people that went over to Luxology and I guess I had held out hope that they were working on something for us. Not to say they are not! But I think Lightwave needs serious work in the character animation, and in simulation. I guess my point is I don't want to buy buddy programs that are developed by different teams. They never fully work well together especially when they are developing for more than one user base. If LW8 does not really sing, and I have to buy something else, it will be XSI were I can have all the tools I need in one box.

RobertoOrtiz
06-23-2003, 11:17 PM
Sight...
Look at all that vapor.
The older I get, the more I appreciate New tek approach to keep
quiet about development.

Hell if the program is an add on for Lightwave, why all the grief?

Hell the Kaydara and Messiah people were cool about their tools
and not divisive and sneaky with the LW community.


:thumbsdow

-R

PS For an example of what I am talking about ,see the comment above mine.

lwbob
06-23-2003, 11:36 PM
Hey Roberto,

Which Luxology employee killed your whole family? It is just software.

HowardM
06-24-2003, 12:31 AM
My boss made a VERY interesting point for your consipracy theories!

Why would MAC have Luxology and not someone like Wavefront on their video?
Because, Brad being such a MAC lover has worked a deal with MAC, so Luxology will be creating 3D software exclusively for Macintosh!
:)
No more StrataPRO! hahahha
:)
It will be called I-LuxStudio!

And the PC versions wont fully work right nor will pluginz be made for them!

:)

lwbob
06-24-2003, 12:40 AM
Nah, they'll release it for the PC just long enough to get a bunch of users. Then they will pull the plug and make it mac only.

RobertoOrtiz
06-24-2003, 12:44 AM
lwbob they tortured my cat.
It was an horrible experience.

He he

Better switch to decaf before I post.

-R

SplineGod
06-24-2003, 06:44 AM
Originally posted by paul k.
I just saw Brad at the show but I couldn't get a real good look at what he was running his tests on. However he did refer to what they were testing as there new project, and it definately was not Lightwave that he was running......Granted I am on the outside, but, I think this is pretty bad news for Lightwave development unless the "New Project" is the next Lightwave?
How is it bad for Lightwave? LW8 is being worked on and we shall see something at Siggraph apparently. Lux could suddenly vanish like smoke and it will in no way effect LW. :)
Roberto,
You hit it on the head. No other companies out their has done more to screw up the LW market more the Lux. I think the comparison between Lux and smoke is a good one. :)

SplineGod
06-24-2003, 07:00 AM
Originally posted by paul k.
I know that we have already heard that NewTek is developing the next generations of Lightwave, and so on.... What I meant was that this is bad because there are some really talented people that went over to Luxology and I guess I had held out hope that they were working on something for us. Not to say they are not! But I think Lightwave needs serious work in the character animation, and in simulation. I guess my point is I don't want to buy buddy programs that are developed by different teams. They never fully work well together especially when they are developing for more than one user base. If LW8 does not really sing, and I have to buy something else, it will be XSI were I can have all the tools I need in one box.
I agree that some talented ppl went over to Lux but they dont have a monopoly on talented programmers by any means.
Think about this. If anyone on the Lux team was any good at writing character tools we would have seem SOMETHING a long time ago. Hell, bone tools have been nonexistant until the Ortho tools from Irrational number. What was the Dev teams fix? Skelegons....
Skelegons sound good but the only easy thing about them is that you can draw them out. After that its like walking around loaded moustraps in the dark. They were and are a kludge because you couldnt manipulate bones in layout very easily. You STILL have to go back to modeler to tweak a joint a half millimeter.
You also say that you dont like buddy programs that are developed by different teams but look at how Motion Designer, Motion Mixer, Particles and Hypervoxels dont feel integrated into Lightwave. They feel like they were slapped on by different "buddy" teams. They werent though, they were done by the exact same group over at Luxology. If they couldnt get it together when they were part of Newtek what makes you think that they suddenly have it together now with less resources and a new nonexistent product on their back and Mount Olympus to climb? My point is that why look to Lux for character tools when theyve never been able to do it before?
Im glad theyre gone and with them the whole "garage" programming mentality. That doesnt cut it anymore and neither does the incredible amount of hype coming out of Lux.
I think Newtek has found that replacing the garage development mentality with an engineering and design based one will carry the day. I for one am very excited about what LW8, 8.5, 9 and so on will bring. This is going to be one interesting siggraph. :)

HowardM
06-24-2003, 07:06 AM
yes!

God I hope youre right larry, that this is the next Paradigm Shift! (said in campy 1992 Newtek Video voice) :)
death to garageware!


..i never knew that about MD, HV, PFX..I always thought they were 3rd party plugins that then were made part of LW...but basically still written by the original authors...

lwbob
06-24-2003, 07:08 AM
Originally posted by SplineGod
You hit it on the head. No other companies out their has done more to screw up the LW market more the Lux. I think the comparison between Lux and smoke is a good one. :)

So far Luxology has done more than NewTek has with LW8. We saw more than a promise.

lwbob
06-24-2003, 07:14 AM
Originally posted by HowardM

..i never knew that about MD, HV, PFX..I always thought they were 3rd party plugins that then were made part of LW...but basically still written by the original authors...

They are. The way they are "integrated" is either by the use of the hidden plugin entry (putting a period in front of the plugin name) or just in the default menus. The only real difference is that HVs are combined with the volumetric light stuff in the volume.dll. Read the SDK, plugin files are just dlls with a ".p" extension. Motion Designer, last time I checked was still a few .p files.


If they were really integrated we would be able to access their properties from outside their GUIs.

HowardM
06-24-2003, 07:21 AM
yeah well, its lame, however its done now.
hopefully LW8 will have everything integrated, animateable and multiple stacked undos or there will be alot of disappointed people here!
it wouldnt make sense otherwise...unless NT doesnt use its own software?

SplineGod
06-24-2003, 07:40 AM
Sure Lux has done so much for the Lightwave 8. We can always use those same 7 tutorials over and over, those nifty presets, holding up LW8 development and enough smoke up my backside to give me colon cancer. I can see how some might view that as doing more.
Howard,
LW8 will be better and mostly because those guys are gone off doing their own thing so better programmers can take over. That happens sometimes; some talented people can only take it so far and then more talented people can take it further.

lwbob
06-24-2003, 07:42 AM
You expect all that in a few short months. Hell, I doubt we'll see that even if 8 goes into 3rd qtr 2004.

You are asking for more than LW6 gave us. But then Larry seems to think that the programmers up 'til now couldn't manage anything worth while.

lwbob
06-24-2003, 07:43 AM
Originally posted by SplineGod
Sure Lux has done so much for the Lightwave 8. We can always use those same 7 tutorials over and over, those nifty presets, holding up LW8 development and enough smoke up my backside to give me colon cancer.

Time to pull the pants up then.

takkun
06-24-2003, 07:58 AM
I hope Larry's right for the sake of Lightwave. But, just wondering, who are the new superstars of Lightwave development at Newtek? The only thing that I heard is that Andrew Cross is now overseeing development of Lightwave.

SplineGod
06-24-2003, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by lwbob
Time to pull the pants up then.
Umm...they were never down. I think you are referring to some game you are obviously more familiar with then I am. :)

SplineGod
06-24-2003, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by takkun
I hope Larry's right for the sake of Lightwave. But, just wondering, who are the new superstars of Lightwave development at Newtek? The only thing that I heard is that Andrew Cross is now overseeing development of Lightwave.

I wouldnt worry too much about it. Newtek is pretty committed to Lw8 and way beyond. :)

Shade01
06-24-2003, 08:12 AM
These assumptions are based on the thought that just because they have 'better' and 'different' programmers they will be allowed to implement new features in a different way? Who's to say the way Lightwave is programmed isn't coming from the top down, and the programmers don't have much of a choice about how things are done? A lot of the oldtime Lightwave people are still there on a management level, and who's to say they didn't totally subscribe to the philosophy that Hastings and Ferguson already put in place? Since the team left to form Lux I don't recall anybody at NewTek saying anything remotely to the effect of 'now that they are gone we can finally go ahead with a different implementation scheme'. These people could be different and better, but when founders and upper management leave, there's always some sort of blueprint in place to be followed, and since most everyone left has been there awhile, they may just simply following suit with whatever was already planned, which could be more of the slapped in stuff you love to hate.

Just offering you a different viewpoint :)

Omita
06-24-2003, 08:22 AM
It sure looked like Lightwave to me. Maybe a beta version, the Tab buttons on top, the same Default green for Non textured Shaded and the panel on the Left sure looked like Lightwave to me. I'm guessing that Luxology will be doing R&D stuff for Newtek.

On the bright side... they did show a little animation with the same interface... which hints that Luxology is Layout and modeler combined. And to avoid confusion with LW and it's old bottle neck they have switched it's name. And that might have been a history panel in the nav bar. (Omita hopes...)

They would be stupid to make another 3rd party program. LW already has too many 3rd party programs. After purchasing LW... Sas, G2, and other optionals like Impact and or Messiah you have spent more then Maya.

Too bad all the models they had in the demo looked stupid and simple.

-Omita

SplineGod
06-24-2003, 08:23 AM
I think that the reason they are doing things differently and will continue in that vein is that Jim Plant is new, William is new and others are new. The ones have have continued on know firsthand the dangers of using a development style that was flawed. I dont see why they should say that they are implementing a different scheme when typically new management equals a change in the way things are done.
I think VT3 development was done far more professionally and methodically then the way LW development was handed. Nowhere in the VT3 does anything feel slapped on. Thats no surprise since Andrew Cross is a brilliant programmer and has done development before and understands video.
Go to the Lux homepage and compare Brads bio with Andrews.
Ive heard Andrew state the the same development process that was done with the VT3 would also be done with Lightwave development. THAT signifies a huge change and a better change. :)

SplineGod
06-24-2003, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by Omita
I'm guessing that Luxology will be doing R&D stuff for Newtek.

They would be stupid to make another 3rd party program. LW already has too many 3rd party programs. After purchasing LW... Sas, G2, and optionals like Impact and or Messiah you have spent more then Maya.

I at least trust Todd Grimes... and he is involved with Luxology. :)
R&D for Newtek? Wait til siggraph and that should clear things up. :) How do you get that Todd is involved with Lux?Ive never once seen him say anything like that. Appearances can be deceiving. I would ask Todd how true that is before saying something like that. Get Motion Builder instead of Messiah. Its cheaper.

AndréNozawa
06-24-2003, 08:35 AM
I think NT will show something cool at Siggraph. Everyone is expecting new tools for character animation integrated on LW 8.

Siggraph is a big event and NT would not take a risk of showing some crap and give the chance to A/W team to kill themselves laughing at them.Nor desappointing LW users present there.

That`s what I am praying for...:)

SplineGod
06-24-2003, 08:38 AM
Hey Andre,
Chuck posted that LW8 will have enhanced character tools.
Im pretty confident that they will have what they promised. :)

AndréNozawa
06-24-2003, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by SplineGod
Hey Andre,
Chuck posted that LW8 will have enhanced character tools.
Im pretty confident that they will have what they promised. :)

Hi Larry,

Sometimes I think you know something about LW8...

Zithen
06-24-2003, 08:44 AM
Well, if the future is bright for LW then that's great. But what about the near future...as in LW8? I don't want to have to wait another 2 years to get the app that LW is supposed to be.

If LW8 ain't great (as in an architectual rewrite, giving a better API and integration between Modeler and Layout), then I really will be disappointed because I feel that the time from LW7 to now should have been enough time to do what should have been done.
I mean, I really don't understand why Newtek is hiring programmers now...for dynamics, rendering and modeling engines. That should have been done a long time ago. You mean a better solution for a soft/hard body dynamics engine has not been in development already during the last three years??? Will LW8 still have MD2000?

The great LW future should be now, in LW8. Not two years from now. And I'm not sure if I'll have the patience to wait for it or not, considering other products that will be coming out, delivering what we want.

SplineGod
06-24-2003, 08:58 AM
Hey Andre,
I know what you know.
Newtek has stated what theyre doing in LW8 and that things would be shown at Siggraph. They also said that LW8 will ship in the 4th Quarter of this year. Somehow I dont think theyre kidding and I dont think they plan to disappoint people. :)
Zithen I agree. The furture is bright and it starts with 8.
What we see in LW 8 should give an idea of the roadmap they intend to follow. Im concerned about LW8 but also which direction they intend to take it from there. A lot of people want to know that 8 will be good and that its on the right track. Personally I think its all good. :)

Zithen
06-24-2003, 09:21 AM
If the future starts with LW8, then why would Newtek be hiring and looking for programmers for major, leading positions...UI, render, dynamics, model technologies, for the next generation LW only a few months before the LW8 announcement?

Didn't know they could write an app in such a short time.

SplineGod
06-24-2003, 09:28 AM
Who said they were starting from scratch?
Besides you only have a few weeks til Siggraph. :)

m_luscombe
06-24-2003, 10:57 AM
Yikes, Larry. How do you manage to stay this optimistic?

It's catchy, please keep it up :thumbsup:

takkun
06-24-2003, 11:04 AM
Larry, you're holding back on us- You're the "Newtek Pro, Editor-at-Large" as it says in your sig. You have got to be preparing for a Siggraph issue soon, most likely with lots of LW8 info. But I don't expect you to say anything now, but a screenshot says a lot without words you know. ;)

lwbob
06-24-2003, 11:49 AM
A screenshot would also break NDAs. Not that someone hasn't done that before.

Julez4001
06-24-2003, 12:31 PM
man, my expectations for LW chaacter tools is way up there, now Larry! I would love to say I can use all my tools in one package. Here hoping not to be let down, of course my expectations is

Ortho integrated type solution or messiah setup mode.
Messiah IK/expression speed (or faster)
Kickass softbodynamics speed
Layout Bone setup


No excuses. new team, i want new results.

Nemoid
06-24-2003, 02:08 PM
Hey!
its interesting. i go away for a couple of days and what happens? news from Lux?

i don't have to visit this forum SO often in the future.

incredible.

seriously:
i was waiting for this. infact its logical. they will have to say smth at SIGGRAPH, and i'm happy with that.

personally i don't think Lux will make some product Lw related. just my opinion.
Lw will keep on being a fantastic app, but i'm also happy that perhaps smth new have to come.

Siggraph :drool:

WesComan
06-24-2003, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by SplineGod
I agree that some talented ppl went over to Lux but they dont have a monopoly on talented programmers by any means.
Think about this. If anyone on the Lux team was any good at writing character tools we would have seem SOMETHING a long time ago. Hell, bone tools have been nonexistant until the Ortho tools from Irrational number. What was the Dev teams fix? Skelegons....
Skelegons sound good but the only easy thing about them is that you can draw them out. After that its like walking around loaded moustraps in the dark. They were and are a kludge because you couldnt manipulate bones in layout very easily. You STILL have to go back to modeler to tweak a joint a half millimeter.
You also say that you dont like buddy programs that are developed by different teams but look at how Motion Designer, Motion Mixer, Particles and Hypervoxels dont feel integrated into Lightwave. They feel like they were slapped on by different "buddy" teams. They werent though, they were done by the exact same group over at Luxology. If they couldnt get it together when they were part of Newtek what makes you think that they suddenly have it together now with less resources and a new nonexistent product on their back and Mount Olympus to climb? My point is that why look to Lux for character tools when theyve never been able to do it before?
Im glad theyre gone and with them the whole "garage" programming mentality. That doesnt cut it anymore and neither does the incredible amount of hype coming out of Lux.
I think Newtek has found that replacing the garage development mentality with an engineering and design based one will carry the day. I for one am very excited about what LW8, 8.5, 9 and so on will bring. This is going to be one interesting siggraph. :)

Ahhh come on Larry!...is it really neccesary to stick the boot in to Luxology every time they get mentioned? As you say there's some serious talent there and I'm for one interested in seeing what they can cook up starting with a clean sheet of paper. You say their product is none existent...so...er...they're just hanging around drinking beer are they? With all your negative posts about Luxology I'm beginning to get the impression that all the cool guys have gone to a really great party and a certain somebody wasn't invited!...;) Perhaps we should all just chill out, hang loose, crack open a tinnie and wait to be inundated with a whole host of funky new tools for us to use. :beer:

Miyazaki
06-24-2003, 03:13 PM
Poor newtek developers. They`re under huge pressure. We should open an official newtek developer charity thread ;) I don`t wanna swap places with them. So in order to reassure them: ' Heads up, girls and boys, you´ll make it(I hope)' :thumbsup:

feefunk
06-24-2003, 03:36 PM
well not to sound like a party pooper, but "enhanced character animation tools" can be just a fancy term that Newtek is using to include something that is basic and old news on other programs.

"Enhanced" could mean finally having a dopesheet. Big deal. Well for LW it is I guess.

Or real animatable weighted constraints... not a silly plug-in.

:wavey:

Cman
06-24-2003, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by takkun
Larry, you're holding back on us- You're the "Newtek Pro, Editor-at-Large" as it says in your sig. You have got to be preparing for a Siggraph issue soon, most likely with lots of LW8 info. But I don't expect you to say anything now, but a screenshot says a lot without words you know. ;)

A screenshot would also just leave more questions than answers.
I like Splinegod's assesment that having new programmers is probably good. Even if they're not "more talented", they'll at least have a new perspective and different ideas on how to code something.
That's gotta be a good thing.:D

mbaldwin
06-24-2003, 05:01 PM
I also agree with Wescoman--Larry, I got your point about Luxology. While I'm not asking you to take both sides of the debate, I would like a little easing up on the knee-to-groin action.

I'm content to see what develops. I hope there's a dramatic difference to the development of Lightwave. 'garage' is an appropriate tag for the policies and product of the last 2 years. I would also love better service by Newtek on the Mac platform. We'll see.

Nemoid
06-24-2003, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by Miyazaki
Poor newtek developers. They`re under huge pressure. We should open an official newtek developer charity thread ;) I don`t wanna swap places with them. So in order to reassure them: ' Heads up, girls and boys, you´ll make it(I hope)' :thumbsup:

This pressure can be a good thing for Lightwave's future!!
also, if i was in ppl from Lux, i'd feel the same pressure as well!!

'nuff said

Griffon
06-24-2003, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by SplineGod
You hit it on the head. No other companies out their has done more to screw up the LW market more the Lux. I think the comparison between Lux and smoke is a good one. :)

An opinion which no one has been more vocal about then you.

SplineGod
06-24-2003, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by WesComan
Ahhh come on Larry!...is it really neccesary to stick the boot in to Luxology every time they get mentioned? As you say there's some serious talent there and I'm for one interested in seeing what they can cook up starting with a clean sheet of paper. You say their product is none existent...so...er...they're just hanging around drinking beer are they? With all your negative posts about Luxology I'm beginning to get the impression that all the cool guys have gone to a really great party and a certain somebody wasn't invited!...;) Perhaps we should all just chill out, hang loose, crack open a tinnie and wait to be inundated with a whole host of funky new tools for us to use. :beer:
Its obvious that Lux has done nothing more then confuse the LW user base to the point that some people arent thinking of going over to Lux but switching to Maya or something else. If Lux has a product then show it. Go over the Luxs FAQ page, read it and tell me what all the excess verbiage means. Lux has been around for at least a year now. What have they done except target the LW community trying to divide it. I dont see them doing any marketing at anyone else. You dont even see them anywhere doing much of anything. Once in a great while they pop up at some event being vague. Newtek has been about as forthcoming as you can get. Theyve offered some nice upgrade paths to LW8.
Lux sounds like an Invader Zim episode..."We're working on....STUFF!" :)