John's Vision

[CybrGfx]

Hello, Spyros!
As you are well aware, depth is your biggest problem with this piece.
Depth is achieved through VALUE, so I think you know where your major problem lies...

Beyond that core problem, I see a multitude of mistakes in this piece that are keeping it from being intriguing, and making it confusing, instead.

Everything representing a living creature, human or animal, has antomy errors galore, mostly inconsistencies from front to back, or top to bottom. Most all heads are too small for the bodies.

You have no decent and consistent light source, which makes establishing correct values almost impossible.
Fix this before anything else.

The use of the Golden Mean involves more than mere placement. There are also considerations of size, shape, balance, rhythm, and unity to be taken into account. Your sizes and proportions of all these varied elements are so inconsistent and confusing as to ruin your overall composition.

At present, while this concept holds a great deal of promise, what you have is a badly jumbled, confusing, too busy, mess. The eye does not flow across and around the work, so much as it is jarringly dragged from one element to the next, with no real resting spots, nor overall gestalt to the work.

It would be futile to try to determine which elements should be moved forewards or back, until a better General Compositional foundation has been established.

What are your top 3 Focal points supposed to be here, and how do you envision the viewer observing this work, seeing what and then looking where? Once you have a clear direction planned, you can work on making the elements fit into it...

~C
Here are my dilemmas
1.They are approx. 12 main elements in the scene.Which ones should I keep in the front,which ones to keep them more at the background applying depth of field on them?
Hard to tell at this point. The composition is still not solid.

2.Mood?What kind of mood/era you would expect in such a theme(Note:I am not trying to create a realistic scene;I am trying to create a theme with a second or third meaning in it.The more you looking at it the more you can discover.Something like a de-coded map...well I wish at least! lol) At present the mood is somewhat Religious Orthodoxy/Mystic. Not that appealing to the General Public. What "story" is this conglomeration of stuff suppose to be telling???

3.On which ellements in your opinion I should apply detailing digital painting? Those elements that you want the viewer to pay particular attention to, or that are important to the visual flow over the canvas.

4.Depth.Still the scene looks more 2-dimensional ,even if I tried to create 2nd and 3rd layer of background. That's because of bad Values.

[SDIMIS]

Dear CybrGfx
Thank you very much for the suggestions and the constructive criticism.

You have no decent and consistent light source, which makes establishing correct values almost impossible.


You are right on that.I have created a directional enviroment light in the 3d scene casting shadows( right front to left back),but maybe not with enough intensity.
It becomes more complicated to light up the scene since they are light sources from other areas as the 7 candles .

What are your top 3 Focal points supposed to be here, and how do you envision the viewer observing this work, seeing what and then looking where? Once you have a clear direction planned, you can work on making the elements fit into it..

That is a great question.LOL:blush: I had asked myself couple of times the same question before I posted the image here to find some help.As a metaphysical meaning I guess the 3 focal points should be 7stars-tree of life-seven deadly sins(diagonal).But I am not sure if these points should be the first observesion points for the viewer or the secondary look.

. Most all heads are too small for the bodies
I will disagree in that ,but I respect your opinion.


Depth is achieved through VALUE, so I think you know where your major problem lies

I totally agree ,I havent work with the ellements values yet(exept the far background )since I was expecting to figure where to put my focus points.That is why even the ground value is untouched.

! lol) At present the mood is somewhat Religious Orthodoxy/Mystic. Not that appealing to the General Public.

Hmmm I would like ,somehow a de-coding (Da vinci ), or mystic/explorational(Intiana Jones) or a little dark(Van-helsing) style and mood.

What "story" is this conglomeration of stuff suppose to be telling

At first look ,is a story of John's vision.


The use of the Golden Mean involves more than mere placement. There are also considerations of size, shape, balance, rhythm, and unity to be taken into account

I totally agree .I tried to follow position and some of the sizes analogies.I did not figure out at all shape,balance and unity:D

PS.Am I going to take the composition as a natural enviroment scene or as a supernatural scene where natural laws do not aplly at all ellements?:rolleyes:
Limited References I was able to find:


http://static.artbible.info/large/lam_gods.jpg

http://www.conncoll.edu/is/library/visual/images-big/10Durer.jpg

http://www.journeywithjesus.net/Essays/St_John_On_Patmos_sm.jpg

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greece/Religion/Revelation2.jpg

http://catholic-resources.org/Images/Evangelists/Rev-Grubb16.gif



Thank you for your time.
SDimis

[CybrGfx]

Most 3D people will tell you the pitfalls of applying material textures with light sources already built in, which makes it that much more difficult to make your light source(s) correspond with each other consistently. It will always have a "cut and paste" look without that consistency.

You can't post a work here without an established focal point, expecting us to do the work for you through trial and error guesswork...Since you do not have this clear in your head, you will not know if you agree with our opinions or not...

You are very mistaken if you think you have not worked with the element's values. You've rendered the 3ds with varying light sources and values, rendering the depth for everything from the robes of the seated figure, to the light source illuminating the butt of the creature in the lower RH corner...You just haven't worked effectively or consistently with your values.

This is a major mistake on your part. You HAVE TO have a clear light source from the beginning, or you end up with a poorly illuminated mess, which you are well on your way towards. You will have to rework all the lighting, or have it all look very crude and "low brow."

The problem with your "Da Vinci Code" concept, is that your assemblage of symbols is neither mysterious, nor mystical. It's all a bit "beat one on the head" obvious and visually "pushy." Subtlety is a fine skill to develop as an artist...

Even supernatural scenes follow visual compositional rules to make them flow. Your piece has problems with the composition because of this, and your limited references do FAR more to show your mistakes, than to shore up your excuses for them.
LOOK at the perspective of every one. They ALL show proper size proportions, regardless the distance being represented...
The first one shows a proper sized sheep, along with proportional sizes of the people at various distances.
The Durer Apocalypse, with a lot of similar symbolism to your piece, again shows proper perspective and proportions for the humans and the animals...
The rest also show things in proper perspective. The eye can follow the images smoothly without stopping in confusion.

Part of the problem, is that you are attempting to illustrate a story that has a lot of historical precedence, but with different symbolism and composition. This would be okay, except for all the technical issues. Which do you battle first? The bad composition, or the bad rendering? I vote for fixing the composition, but some of your answers to my questions show that you do not have a solid enough concept in your head regarding focal point, flow, direction, and dominance, to help you shake out the sticking points...

You will find that works not planned out carefully with attention to consistency and coordination between the visual elements will end up being an exercise in frustration, taking you far longer, with more effort, for less effect, than having a plan and following it. You'll also find yourself making a lot more excuses for the parts that don't look right, than you would by coordinating them better.

Best of success to you with this piece. You'll need it.

~C

[SDIMIS]

Dear CybrGfx
Rather for me and you to go on in a conversation that will not give us much more than what we have taken as a feedback from eachothers,I better go back to my files try to fix the areas of the composition needed to be fixed.I did not post here to find excuses but rather help.I knew I needed help that is why I post first place my work in progress .



Sincerely
SDimis

[SDIMIS]

Here is a very quick collage moving layers around ,to see how I can re-arrange the theme of the project.Focus point should be at the lamb .Some quick meshy painting to see where clouds should be painted to seperate the two words.Still not happy.:hmm:

C&C welcome







http://features.cgsociety.org/newgallerycrits/g99/135599/135599_1231110757_large.jpg

[Saralyssan]

You mentioned that the focal point should be the lamb, but I'm really having trouble reading it that way. I still find myself drawn to John because of the color and value contrast that makes him stand out so much, as opposed to the lamb which kinda blends into the background. You really have nothing leading the eye to the lamb at all - in fact, the two torches next to it somewhat block the eye from reaching the lamb. It simply doesn't stand out.

[SDIMIS]

Dear Saralyssan
thank you for your feedback.I will work more in that direction.
I am also thinking to do some tests by not including the lower 2 beasts in the composition since they were additions to the original concept I had created.

I will do some tests and re-arrangments again

[SDIMIS]

Another attempt to organize the composition but again unsuccesful :D :wip:

Need hel to brink this work to life .C&C welcome

http://www.upload-image.org//view.php?img=375b152d2d328d6066cd104cf826549d

[Mik2121]

I know this won't help much, but I just wanted to tell you this somehow reminded me of Michael Jackson's Dangerous art:

http://sleevage.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/michael_jackson_dangerous-f.jpg

Maybe you should fit everything into some kind of set rather than having everything flying nowhere?.

Good luck with it, anyway!. Sorry if I couldn't help much :(

[SDIMIS]

Dear Mik2121,
thank you for your comments.It realy helped me think how to support the top part of the composition.I am working on it and I will post updates soon.

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