where to start- a winter scene

[Digitool]

if you don't mind spending a few pennies, check this out. http://gnomonology.com/group/16
From the looks of it, this would help you get where you need to be.

I would also highly suggest checking this out. I began reading through to think whether it would be helpful to you or not and well, I find it pretty interesting...

http://www.aniquito.com/new/maya/cg_lighting/cg_lighting.php

after this brief intro, just click the link toward the bottom of the entry to go to the good stuff.


To pull a picture from the above mentioned link, I imagine this to be a good start for your scene as far as what the overall look should be. You'll probably want some more darker blues and haze, indicating an overcast evening possibly, to set the depressing mood.

The only problem is he doesn't show you how to light up a scene, more just the kind of lighting you need to place to achieve a look. I hope you find it useful. I learned a few things from it.

[kanooshka]

Hi Starving_artist,

The biggest property to achieve a cold scene is definitely blue. You really want to focus on your sky lighting the scene. I would also suggest not having sunlight. Sunlight is a source of warmth and the absence of it would push the coldness of the scene. So overcast skies seems to the be best method to achieve this which means very soft shadows. You may also want to limit your color palette. To really push the cold feeling you could change those red banners to blue or you could also desaturate your "warm" color materials.

Another suggestion would be to create some atmospherics. Snow falling could make it colder but even more than that I would suggest an atmospheric fog. This may pose an issue with your camera angle having the important interest being a decent distance away from the camera but you could make this a subtle effect.

As for modeling I'd suggest adding icicles hanging from the roofs and even snow on the roof tops. Hope this gives you some ideas =)

[mister3d]

You can start lighting with lighting sketches, i.e with basic geometry and even without textures. You can apply procedural colors (and maybe reflections) as you think you will use in final textures, and this way plan your lighting. The best way is not to stick with one lighting scheme, but try as much fast variants as you can. Also it's a good idea to try adjust it before complex modeling and texturing, as usually you are exhausted after those stages and your creativity is not as high as when you start.
Some points to consider: your foreground shoud usually be not too bright not to attract much attention, as its goal to create depth in the image, but not stick an eye to it. Unless of course your point of interest in the foreground, and you make it dominating the background. Then outdoor scenes have either sun (or moon) +skylight. Any kind of firelight or torches are possible. In outdoor scenes, if you want drama, you can place your sun or moon lower to the horizon to create dramatic shadows. That's why they usually try to shoot either in the evening or early morning. When the sun is high it's not too dramatic (unless you want to create faces with deeply placed eyes as they are tired and exhausted for example). Try to keep you lighting in low key (dark, but not completely black, shadows, and the prevailing tonality is dark). Maybe grab some shots from films and see if you can apply color scheme of lighting.
Beside this, remember your important goal is to make the image read, i.e your shadows and lighting must define the form of objects not to look flat or ambigous. Silouhette lighting though is possible, as it defines the outline well and you can "read" the form very fast.
Try different, most insane, variants. You will need to readjust and tweak the lighting after final modeling and texturing, but the scheme will be useful to setup the final lighting faster.

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/9492/castledt1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/castledt1.jpg/1/w700.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img165/castledt1.jpg/1/)

[starving_artist]

Thanks so much for the feedback guys. As for those red banners...they are simply red at the moment to seperate them from the other geometry. I plan on making them blue in color with a different design. I'll try and post something soon for some feedback. thanks again!

[Digitool]

Another suggestion would be to create some atmospherics. Snow falling could make it colder but even more than that I would suggest an atmospheric fog. This may pose an issue with your camera angle having the important interest being a decent distance away from the camera but you could make this a subtle effect.

You beat me to it. I was thinking earlier today while I was out and it was overcast it reminded me of this scene in question and I thought... "Fog would help set the mood"...

I wish you luck on the lighting and hope to see some updates in time.

[starving_artist]

Ive started work on using an IBL to try and get my overcast sky, I'm going to try and use directionals for my shadows and ambient light ( maybe area lights ) points for lanterns/flames....but what should i do about the windows? I plan on having the majority if not all of them lit. I don't think a shader with glow alone is going to get the look im aiming for. So i guess what im asking is, do i need to make holes in the models and cast light from the inside of them, or should i try putting an area light aimed towards the window to give it that "warm and cozy inside" or " light spilling out the windows" glow?

[Digitool]

I think area lighting is too modern of a look, whereas a point light would give it more the candle / lantern light appearance. Area light is spread over too much of an area and I'm afraid would make it look like there is a lot of light going on in the rooms. just my .02

[starving_artist]

I think area lighting is too modern of a look, whereas a point light would give it more the candle / lantern light appearance. Area light is spread over too much of an area and I'm afraid would make it look like there is a lot of light going on in the rooms. just my .02

so make holes in the geometry and place a point inside?

[Digitool]

I think that it would create a more accurate effect. I would hate to waste some of your time for you to test it and it not work, but if what I am imagining in my head is what you're going for, that is what comes to MY mind as the best route to take.

[starving_artist]

thanks again, i'll try making some adjustments to what i have so far and post something tomorrow. So far the results ive gotten are not even worth posting for critique.

[Jozvex]

To add an idea on top of mister3d's post (which was very good by the way!), a quick way to generate different lighting variations is to put in a few major lights like perhaps in this case a skylight (however you want to do that doesn't really matter), a light for getting your main shadows and then perhaps a few torch lights (that you can pretend are all one light because they have the same affect). Then render our your scene in 3 'light passes'. 1 pass only using the sky, 1 only for the shadows light and 1 that uses all the torch lights.

Then you can take these 3 layers into Photoshop and 'add' them together (linear dodge layer mode I think). Now you can adjust the colour of each layer in realtime as if you were just tweaking the light colours. Maybe when you render out the passes you could set the light colours to white, just so that you're starting 'colour blank' in photoshop.

[starving_artist]

To add an idea on top of mister3d's post (which was very good by the way!), a quick way to generate different lighting variations is to put in a few major lights like perhaps in this case a skylight (however you want to do that doesn't really matter), a light for getting your main shadows and then perhaps a few torch lights (that you can pretend are all one light because they have the same affect). Then render our your scene in 3 'light passes'. 1 pass only using the sky, 1 only for the shadows light and 1 that uses all the torch lights.

Then you can take these 3 layers into Photoshop and 'add' them together (linear dodge layer mode I think). Now you can adjust the colour of each layer in realtime as if you were just tweaking the light colours. Maybe when you render out the passes you could set the light colours to white, just so that you're starting 'colour blank' in photoshop.

Thats a great idea! I'll be using that from now on. Here's what i've got going so far. Not great, but a place to start.

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp334/Starving_artist7/lightingstart.jpg

[mister3d]

Try to make your foregound not so dark, you can't now see barrels and the carriage. Add some fill from sky on the ground nearby maybe. Yet your blue flags are too saturated, never make 100% saturated colors for a realistic scene. You can try to make your torch lights brighter too.
And I don't see any snow. XD

[starving_artist]

Ok, so i've added more lights ( obviously ) adjusted a little bit of thier colors and intensity, changed the saturation of the flags ( lol had to do something about those things ) and here's where I've gotten. I'm still struggling with how I'm going to get the foggy dawn look im going for. To much blue or higher intensity on my directional makes it look like a bad attempt at a night shot and light fog just isnt doing the trick either. Either way...its 5:30 am, here's the image lol...

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp334/Starving_artist7/lightingWIP2.jpg

[Jozvex]

Instead of light 'fog' I would use... lens flares. Yes, I said it! But not really flares I mean like halos. *runs off to Google Images*

Like this: http://www.doubledogmusic.com/baseball/2005_ALDS_Game_5/24_light_up_the_halo.jpg

And this (but it's a bit.. chunky like ash): http://www.photonomikon.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/lamp-halo-L.jpg

To me that suggests both foggy air and cold at the same time. Then add a bit of zdepthy fog (fog that thickens with distance).

Sorry if I'm explaining too much I don't want to be patronizing!

:scream:

[Digitool]

desaturating things is good. also the above mentioned "halo" effect would work to create the fuzzy type of environment. Wash out the scene though and it just zaps the life out of it (with the theory that color adds life) and can help with the unhappy feeling of the scene. Try to get a low contrast going on and see if that helps.

[starving_artist]

Well, I've been having a heck of a time getting the mood I'm going for. It's either to dark or to bright...or possibly there's just not enough fog. But the more fog I add, the brighter the image gets. Anyways, here's what I'm talking about.


http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp334/Starving_artist7/lightingcomparison.jpg

[jipe]

There's still too much warmth and not enough cool colors + desaturation. I ran the bottom-right image through PS and came up with something gloomier and sadder. I don't know if you're looking for day or night, but I darkened the sky because it was way too bright/happy. Also, don't be afraid of crushing the blacks and hiding that architecture that you spent so long modeling; too much fill light hurts your intended mood.

And if my image is too dark, I'm sorry.. one of the inherent limitations of communicating over the internet. I recently calibrated my monitor but obviously not everyone does.

[starving_artist]

Yeah i'm really aiming for more of an early morning shot than a night time one. Foggy, cold, and sad. Almost like this is a village where a lot of the younger men have gone off to war or even instill the mood that someone has just passed and the village is in mourning. Still really aiming for snow also, just have been haivng a hard time setting up a shader and figuring out the best/ most effecient way of modeling it. As always, thanks for the crits, I'll try to have some close-up shots posted soon.

[mister3d]

Also, don't be afraid of crushing the blacks and hiding that architecture that you spent so long modeling; too much fill light hurts your intended mood.

That's an interesting point. I'm still not sure what is right - leaving completely black shadows for drama or to maintain a minute range of exposure left. I guess the advice of not leaving black shadows is aimed towards beginners in lighting who make in unconciously. From another point, I read several times in different sources that making black shadows leaves no visual information and the viewer gets bored quickly with that. If to think about films, they have limited exposure, so they cannot always maintain it, so sometimes it's unavoidable. From another point, we mimic film, so why not to use black shadows sometimes? I would like to hear other's opinions on that.

[kanooshka]

When working with fog you may want to use cubic decay or use a custom intensity curve to get the right effect.

The majority of your image seems to be light by warm "unnatural" light. If you think about exposure and real life situations you would notice that sun/sky light is much brighter than any candle/man made light.

[Digitool]

I have a great book you may want to check out. It's titled: [Digital] Lighting & Rendering by Jeremy Birn, published by New Riders. He discusses color intensities and temperatures, reflections, styles of lighting, etc. He covers a huge range of things and is very easy to understand. The above comment about how the sunlight is a much brighter light than candles, because on this scale (kelvin) sunlight (through overcast sky, like would be with heavy snow clouds) is 6000-7500ºK and candle light is only 1850-1930ºK
It is a really interesting book and I suggest it to anyone who would like to brush up on any lighting knowledge.

Have you thought about getting an HDR Image of the time of day you're shooting for and setting it up for emitting light?

I also agree with the suggestion to crush with black lights.

I think that a fog or sorts (particles maybe?) should be included in the scene to help weigh it down. The extra weight adds mood.

Also, I think that early morning foggy overcast light looks really spread out and desaturated, with darkish shadows.

Maybe this could be close, only of course you'll have some torch light to help show some more detail in the village http://scripts.mit.edu/%7Ebrehm/beccablog/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/DSC_02772.jpg

http://photography.nationalgeographic.com/staticfiles/NGS/Shared/StaticFiles/Photography/Images/POD/m/morning-fog-stanfield-443398-xl.jpg

I hope this helps you out some. I just grabbed some photos off of google.

[killswitchkitch]

making a similar scene myself but its in a street in belfast with cars and things and i want it to have a regular british overcast day feel about it similar to ur winter scene. I think im close to what i want but the shadows arnt nearly dark enough and I think it has something to do with this grayed out fella

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff153/killswitchkitch/shadow.jpg

sorry for talking about my problem in your thread but it seems like u all got a pretty good understanding of mental ray and i have none at all. Cheers

[Digitool]

does it have anything to do with the "mental ray light shader" box on the bottom right? I use maya so I'm not entirely too sure, but checking and unchecking varoius boxes here and there my open up the ability to use that and give it a shot. Sorry I can't give you any better advice in that regard.

[mister3d]

Killswitchkitch, if you would look in the help, you would see "Render group

NoteThese controls are unavailable when the mental ray renderer is active.
"

Back on topic, I think using fog is a good try. I was thinking and came to a conclusion that it's one of really few elements of separation in lighting. The others include color separation of lighting or objects themselves, and tonal separation of lighting or objects themselves. I'm not sure if rain and smoke can be considered as a lighting separation element. Yet maybe DOF and texture contrast can be included, and maybe yet foreground objects...but those are not of lighting.

[starving_artist]

Hi Everyone,

Unfortunatly I have been unable to work as of late. While the holidays brought much joy there was unfortunatly a death in the family. I thought I owed an explanation as to why nothing has been posted in a while since I was getting such a great response from the community here. I hope everything is going good for all of you and I thank you again for your critiques and comments. I will hopefully have something new posted in the comming weeks. All the best

- Quinten

[Digitool]

No problem, take as much time as you need, though I can't wait to see some progress on this and see if we have been able to help you out. I am sorry about your loss.

[starving_artist]

Hey all,

I'm sorry it's been so long since i've posted anything. This is my current set up. It's a lot closer to what I was going for. I think that with some post fog, obviously a better sky, and some texturing that this may work. Crits/ comments welcome. Hope you all have been well.

-Thanks

http://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp334/Starving_artist7/lighting6.jpg

[mister3d]

Looks pretty good. The roofs dissapear a little across the sky, the flags are a bit too bright and the barrels could be a bit darker. Are you sure you achieved the drama you wanted?

[starving_artist]

Its not there yet no. Its a lot closer though. I'm going to end up doing a lot of things in post. What you see now is still all done in maya. thanks for the response.

[Digitool]

you also have to remember to be careful with your post effects matching up with what is going on with your seen.

Any snow falling should be done so with a lot of change in the horizontal axis. Because the flags you have being fully extended in that direction, that should also be how the snow falls.

I would suggest if you wanted a light falling snow, bring the flags down to a gentle wave, maybe.

It's coming together, but right now it is hard to gauge the look, knowing the post effects will play a large role in the look. Keep it up, can't wait to see where this thing is headed.

[starving_artist]

Hi everyone!
Sorry its been so long since Ive posted anything. I'd like you all to know I have taken all your responses/critiques to heart and appreciate them deeply. I believe that an artists greatest tool can be at times be his/her peers. Anyways, not to seem all mushy, It's obviously been a long time since Ive updated anything but I wanted to fill you all in. I sit down one evening a few weeks ago and decided that I wasn't truely happy with where this project was going. After a lot of hesitation and feeling like I was throwing everything I had done away, I decided to restart the entire project. Granted I have used some of my same models, but for the most part everything has been rearranged and thought out from a new perspective. I really want this scene to have that WOW factor when its completed and for me and what this project means to me, (Its become deeply sentimental as of recent life events) if I don't get that kind of a response, it's not good enough. There are many new images up in the WIP 3d/Stills Forumns of the new layout and models ( though not complete) for you to see. I've put a lot of work into this since I started over and Im truely aiming for a masterpiece when its complete. The only real problem Im having now as far as the scene goes is once again the lighting. The new feel for the village ( now a small city) is still very cold. Its supposed to be a " northern kingdom " meaning that its located somewhere mountainous almost as if they inhabitants were in the mountains, found a good spot to mine rock and cut lumber, and decided to set up shop. The emblem Ive decided to go with (or mascot if you will) is a mountain ram. I'm also still planing on having snow cover and flurries falling when all is complete. Now to the point, sorry for the wall text, as I said before this piece needs to have that WOW factor about it, So I wanted to ask all of you, based on the info that Ive given you and the fact that I want this to be an appealing image to the community, what do YOU see for the lighting? Do you see it overcast and gloomy, sunlight on the bright snow, or maybe its nighttime where the only lighting is from the burn pits on the walls, street lamps, and the candle light pouring out of the buildings. I'm sorry for such a long post but I really do appreciate and have a lot of respsect for ALL the people on cgtalk that share thier time and knowledge to help others. Thanks so much guys, I look forward to hearing your ideas. :)

You might want to actually see some of the new modeling/positioning that's taken place...

This is the replacement for the religious people of the town, bigger town, bigger church!
http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt21/QSharp/cathedralfinished2.jpg
http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt21/QSharp/CathedralWIP1.jpg

The new intro shot, ( still playing with those trees, they're planes) The camera will be animated to move across the bridge and into town revealing a street and the cathedral in the background.

http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt21/QSharp/treescopy.jpg

Heres a couple of shots ( not completed modeling ) that give a feel of what things will look like once inside the gate. My apologies for the lack of occlusion on the second image.

http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt21/QSharp/openingmaybe.jpg
http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt21/QSharp/maybe.jpg

Let me Know what you guys think! I'm excited to hear your ideas!


Additional images and a WIP thread can be found on the WIP Blog page of my website at www.sharp3d.webs.com (http://www.sharp3d.webs.com)

[Digitool]

i'm really liking this.

right now with such a plain clear sky it's kind of hard to imagine, but if you can put some cloudy skies, gray lights, just a darker feel, and some torch-light here and there I think that would look best IMO. I think that its looking really good though, and not to worry about the long post, you have a very nice project on your hands and I can't wait to see its final outcome.

[starving_artist]

Thanks for the comment. I was hoping I could get some feedback from you now that there's been so much new work done. I'm trying to get away from pyhsical sun and sky and for some reason haven't been able to find an HDRI that doesn't blow itself out. I've done some really quick experimenting with some of the default light types to try and acomplish a night look, but to be quite honest, I'm not even sure if thats what I want to go for. I think that a night scene could be very dramatic, but I don't want to lose to much of the detail in the models. So I guess its really between a night shot, with a bright moon serving as the main fill light, street lamps, burn pits, and light pouring from the windows of buildings OR an overcast " darker " daytime shot ( maybe right before sundown but without the orange-i-ness to maintain a cold feeling ) also with burn pits, lamps, and building light sources. Also keep in mind that there will be snow cover that will reflect some of the light off the ground onto the buildings no matter which setup I decide to go with. It's a litte dark,but heres a quick image with some comped snow that was the result of the night time testing.

http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt21/QSharp/intronight.jpg

Any suggestions in regards to the overall setup of the lights themselves ( hdri/ibl, common lights, etc.) or alternative ideas about the time of day or overall feel are as always appreciated.

Thanks,

[playmesumch00ns]

I find nighttime quite difficult. The obvious problem with your latest image is lack of contrast. There's no key and everything is completely washed out.

Give yourself a bright, slightly blue directional source with soft shadows for the moon. Start with just that and angle it so that you pick out the form of your buildings. Then add any practical lights (torches etc) to create pools of light to add interest, making sure to add lights to simulate the bounce from them. Then add a subtle rim opposing the key. You should be able to create an exciting image with just these sources, but large areas of the image will be completely unxeposed, so finally go back in and add fill lights to give shape to the remaining areas, taking care not to flatten any of your surfaces out.

My favourite kind of light as the moment is 'late afternoon sunlight on a stormy day' - the strom clouds block out a lot of light and create a lot of contrast with very rich, saturated shadows, while the direct sunlight breaking through the clouds has a magical, golden quality to it.

If you need inspiration visit sites like flickr.com or pbase.com and just steal a look and/or colour palette from a photo you like.

[starving_artist]

thanks for the reply. I've been having a real hard time figuring out just how to get that contrast into my lighting. Color and intentisity adjustments arent doing me any good, adjusting the angles...no good, etc. Im still playing around with it, as I type this a renders going on in the background. I did however find a few mages that I think might fit the scene well. I'll try and have an update posted soon.

these two are probably my favorites
http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt21/QSharp/lightref.jpg
http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt21/QSharp/lightidea2.jpg

and these were something Ive kind of kept in the back of my mind. I really like the contrast but Im afraid of losing my building details. I 'm perfectly aware Im going to lose some of it but I don't want to lose to much.

http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt21/QSharp/warm-home_450.jpg
http://i594.photobucket.com/albums/tt21/QSharp/cozy-winter-cabin_4072.jpg

thanks again,

[playmesumch00ns]

Hehe don't worry you're not the only one who's precious about losing the details in the lighting - every client I've ever worked with has demanded things be overlit so they can actually see where all their money's going.

Personally, I like the 3rd image best. Just try and forget about all the hard work you put into modelling and texturing and approach the lighting as a final image. The details will still be apparent in the parts that are well-lit. It helps if you squint to defocus your eyes - then you can appreciate the balance of the image as a whole without worrying about the details.

[Digitool]

I can't really say it a whole lot better than "play" has, so I'm just going to leave it at that.

I think you've got a great start, at least, but first thing that popped in my head was contrast. Lighting is very very very picky and things that work won't always work and things that don't always work will start to work.

keep working on the contrast and like he said just keep working up a reference library

things to look for will be how light interacts with snow, how snow looks at different times of the day and try and get the look you're going for element by element. even if it's finding out what stone looks like at night in snow. a lot of thist stuff is probably just redundant hhaa, but you know just throwing it out there just in case so that way it doesnt go unsaid.

knowing the properties of the elements to your scene are important, and knowing things like how snow holds light or reflects light or how much contrast is there on a clear night or on a cloudy night, so on so forth.

I've found I do more reference images for lighting than modeling, it's just so... finicky.

good luck, I like where this is going and I'm glad this thread is going again.

[israelyang]

Hi Quinten
Are these renders you showed us meant to be shots that stand on their own or are they just a few frames in a sequence? I am sorry if you mentioned it and I missed it.

My opinion is, at this moment I wouldn't worry about stuff like IBL. Like playmesumch00ns said, first thing you need is to get a key light, get your contrast and driectionality there, then you can add colours and refine.

Consider your setting. What's this morning weather like? We know you like it to be snowy, and when it snows we know it's cloudy. But How cloudy? If the snowfall is heavy, then it's gotta be completely cloudy and realistically there will be no sense of sun light direction see this image (1) (http://www.ontariocraftbrewers.com/blog/wp-content/neustadt-snow-day.JPG) , and aesthetically it can be very dull.
Personally, I'd make this weather cloudy and somewhat snowy but the sun is only behind a thin(er) layer of cloud so it becomes diffused by the clouds and becomes a soft light source, (it's like putting a point source light behind a white piece of silk, the silk works as a diffusion and becomes a large light source itself.) With this approach, you can have a win-win solution where you have a sense of key light direction to create contrast, but also not hard and directional enough to make it appear harsh.

To create this soft wrapping light, use an area light as the key and render it with mental ray (sorry is this what you are using?). Remember, the bigger the area light is, the softer the lighting will be. An area light gives you MORE than a softer shadow, it wraps the objects in light. see image (2) (http://static.photo.net/attachments/bboard/00A/00AQW6-20890384.jpg) , image (3)
(http://static.photo.net/attachments/bboard/00M/00Meza-38681684.jpg)
Once you have the key light in place, it's time to put in your sky lights. There are many ways to do it, dome lights, a HDRI of a cloudy sky (or multiply coloured area lights with proper intensity), and (cleverly used) ambient lights+AO etc. etc...

With your main key and sky fill in place, you can then add practicals (torches, window lights...), and not all lights need to be motivated, remember you don't always simply put a light there just because there is a torch there, you use lights to model, to define form, to direct the eyes, to set mood...

Also regarding your render with the snow, when heavy snow is falling, it itself becomes a fog like structure, things in the distance get obscured by the accumulating snow flakes.
See image (1).

The 3rd images you posted of the cottage in the snow, it's pretty but to me it's a fuzzy cozy warm image and not the cold and dark and damp as you are trying to achieve.

Someone posted a night foggy image of a square, I think it's a very good reference. It has a very cold and damp feel to it, besides the fog, to me a lot comes from the wet floor with very blurry reflection. You ground is probably snow covered but you might want to consider leaving some area nice and wet. Lighting and Shading are so closely related you can't really talk about one and not the other.

Again, less is more, don't feel bad when fog and snow and darkness obscure your textures. Don't light to illuminate, what lurks in darkness could be a lot more intriguing when that's revealed, shadows can be your best friend in lighting.

best regards

[starving_artist]

thanks so much for the reply. The images shown will be part of different shots for my latest demo. Ive really been struggling with this a lot more that I expected to. Ive been trying a lot of difference set ups but Im missing the bits and pieces that will really make them work. when I try a directional it just washes everything out, a spot light doesnt give me the contrast I need, and i've even tried an HDR for the overall ambience of the scene and then placing practicals......didnt work haha. I'll keep at it though and hopefully have something worth critique soon. Thanks again guys.

[CGTalk Moderation]

This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.