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SheepFactory
12-19-2008, 03:51 PM
Another morning another bad news.. :(

http://kotaku.com/5114113/ea-reducing-work-force-by-1000-closing-9-locations



EA has revealed further details on its restructuring plans, which will see the publisher cutting approximately 1,000 jobs and closing or consolidation of nine studio and publishing locations, including Black Box Studio.

The workforce reduction portion of the program is actually an extension on the 6% reduction announced back in October, increasing it to a 10% reduction. Terminations of the 1,000 employees is expected to be completed by March 31st, 2009. On top of the terminations, nine studio and publishing locations will be either closed or consolidated with other facilities, with Black Box Studio in Vancouver, British Columbia being merged with the EA studio in Burnaby, BC.

Along with narrowing their games portfolio, these measures are expected to save the company $120 million annually, while costing them $55-65 million in restructuring charges over the next few quarters.

Not good news for employees, but I suppose it beats coming to work to find you've been locked out.

EA Releases Details on Previously Announced Reduction of Facilities and Work Force

REDWOOD CITY, Calif.—(BUSINESS WIRE)—Electronic Arts Inc. (NASDAQ:ERTS) today announced further details on a restructuring plan which will include consolidating facilities and reducing the work force.

EA expects the restructuring plan will result in annual cost savings of approximately $120 million and restructuring charges of approximately $55-65 million over the next several quarters.

The plan is intended to reduce EA’s worldwide work force by approximately 10 percent or 1,000 people. The majority of these actions will be completed by March 31, 2009. This represents a four percent increase from the six percent reduction EA announced on October 30, 2008.

The restructuring also calls for consolidation or closure of at least nine studio and publishing locations. Among the facilities to be consolidated is the Black Box Studio facility in Vancouver, British Columbia. The Black Box development teams and associated game franchises will move to the nearby EA studio location in Burnaby, British Columbia.

EA is implementing a plan to narrow its product portfolio to focus on hit games with higher margin opportunities. The company remains committed to taking creative risks, investing in new games, leading the industry in the growing mobile and online businesses, and delivering high-quality games to consumers.


This is terrible terrible news. I feel for the blackbox people because their studio was one of the best locations in Vancouver, it will be sad to see it closed down and moved to burnaby. Its not even 2009 yet and it looks like things are going to get a lot worse before it gets any better. :(

Jaycee77
12-19-2008, 04:01 PM
That is sad news, I hate to see that anyone has to lose their job period....

XminusOne
12-19-2008, 04:14 PM
Sheep, be careful man, I know you want to keep people informed and I thank you, but this might cause a spurt of depression for you keeping us updated with this stuff. Stay positive.

As for the layoffs, again, and i'm getting sad saying this, I wish the best of luck to all those affected!!!

DuttyFoot
12-19-2008, 04:21 PM
wow this is getting insane. didn't they just let 600 people go. sorry to hear, hopefully those let go will be able to recoup quickly.

SheepFactory
12-19-2008, 04:22 PM
Sheep, be careful man, I know you want to keep people informed and I thank you, but this might cause a spurt of depression for you keeping us updated with this stuff. Stay positive.

As for the layoffs, again, and i'm getting sad saying this, I wish the best of luck to all those affected!!!


It already did :(

I dread looking at news sites every morning now.

DDS
12-19-2008, 04:27 PM
Sheep, be careful man, I know you want to keep people informed and I thank you, but this might cause a spurt of depression for you keeping us updated with this stuff. Stay positive.


I agree, although this is reality. Turn on TV, news suck as well. This is no exception...you can't stay positive in this situation. Gotta stay real.

Although I'm pretty sure EA and other companies are trying hard to keep h their employees...I think they should try harder. This year has to be a MASSIVE sacrifice, specially for big companies like EA, they still make a lot of money compared to other companies.

As always company first, employee second :hmm:

Solothores
12-19-2008, 05:28 PM
Reducing your opex won't help much if you are navigating through contracting markets, this will be a hard lesson for the shareholder-value suits that are used to juggle with the shortterm tactics between fiscal years, in expanding markets by corporation culture that was used to not consider anything except their own survival / profits. By laying off your workbase, while the outlook says that not only your markets, but also all the others, are going to contract badly, you just exterminate valuable purchasing power while installing an ambience of fear and insecurity, that reaches far beyond your workforce, but also on their social network, exactly what is not needed in such a climate... remember the sociological idea of six degrees of seperation. When there is one thing that this mess of a crisis should have teached anyone, than that corporations need to work together with each other and the goverment to get us through this mess, the old mindless solutions of cutting costs and holding out, while praying for the upswing are not going to work anymore. From a psychological viewpoint just a single laid off person influences the mindset of his whole social network and this is what it is all about, you want to get spending to work against that deflation, before it turns into that ugly hyperinflation...

kees
12-19-2008, 05:40 PM
wow this is getting insane. didn't they just let 600 people go. sorry to hear, hopefully those let go will be able to recoup quickly.

As far as I understand it, this is the same group.
So the 600 people have become 1000 people.
So it is not 600 + 1000.

Reducing by 10% isn't as bad as it may sound for such a large company. Still sucks for those loosing their jobs though.

From what I have heard and read, world-wide game sales haven't really dropped, so perhaps this is more related to under-performing titles from EA then it is related to recession problems in the games industry. I could be wrong though.

vlad74
12-19-2008, 05:44 PM
As XminusOne said stay positive.

Zoober
12-19-2008, 06:15 PM
wow this is getting insane. didn't they just let 600 people go. sorry to hear, hopefully those let go will be able to recoup quickly.


The 600 announced before are included in this. The new total for layoffs is 1000.

Billabong
12-19-2008, 10:53 PM
Jesus, is there no end in sight.

This is depressing news, but still its something I liked to know about regardless

Thoughts and prayers to all of those unemployed

blenderhead
12-20-2008, 12:13 AM
Maybe I'll just throw myself in front of a train.

cresshead
12-20-2008, 12:25 AM
Maybe I'll just throw myself in front of a train.

don't bank on it!...train services are being cut too...you might have to wait a while!
seriously though..this is just the start..wait till mid jan when the 's' hits the 'fan'

if you can ride out 2009 you'll be set for the good times coming back in 2010 or 2011.

though this 'downturn' aka deep resession is going to make everyone think more about saving and less about 'credit'

a good thing long term i reckon.

anobrin
12-20-2008, 12:37 AM
though this 'downturn' aka deep resession is going to make everyone think more about saving and less about 'credit'

a good thing long term i reckon.

No it wont make people and corps think differently about credit they are just sitting like some bizarre game console players waiting for their governments to hit the "restart " button so they can get right back on that enslaving carnival ride
of phony manufactured ,imaginary money that only exists in the databases of the bloodsucking predators known as BANKS!

cresshead
12-20-2008, 12:49 AM
yeah...i can dream though eh!

i stopped having credit card debt balances and bank loans back in 1999..best thing i ever did i think.

INFINITE
12-20-2008, 09:58 AM
BTW there are also plenty of studios who arent closing down that are actualy look to hire people!

Perhaps try and stay positive guys :D

Kabab
12-20-2008, 10:58 AM
I think many companies in all industries are using this so called "crisis" to tighten their belts, we have come off many years of high growth and I imagine many companies are a little bloated so its an easy time to restructure a bit and just blame this whole financial crisis.

DuttyFoot
12-20-2008, 11:18 AM
though this 'downturn' aka deep resession is going to make everyone think more about saving and less about 'credit'


i wish it was so. i know for a fact that whenever things go back to a normal state the cycle will just start over again. the thought that people will learn from whats going on is just wishful thinking.

Boone
12-20-2008, 11:26 AM
Crikey, first Sony now EA. Sorry to hear people are going to loose their jobs. If any are reading this thread then I wish them a brighter future with new employment.

Layer01
12-20-2008, 02:58 PM
BTW there are also plenty of studios who arent closing down that are actualy look to hire people!

Perhaps try and stay positive guys :D


Yeah exactly!
Dont forget that the big news corps are founded on being sensational and making you think and feel that the only reason you are not dead is because you are watching them...remember they rely on having a crisis to report to make you tune in, they're running a business too (not undermining news or saying we should all switch off but its not good to get sucked into their fear mongering)

There is plenty of good news out there, but the "in thing" to do right now is talk about how terrible things are..and as soon as you start focusing on the negative, thats all you'll see.

Maybe those who are laid off will not being able to buy so many things, will have to budget during the uncertain times. But they will have extra time on their hands, perhaps they can now make that website they've always wanted to do, get back into drawing, learn how to print t-shirts, read the backlog of books they have, start the project they've always wanted to do, spend time with the kids, play sport, go for long walks etc...things that cost little to no money.
Of course its worrying to not have a job, and i feel for those in that position, but there is a brighter side too, and i think holding on to and maximising the bright side is the best way to deal with this change...
its just a change not the end.

DDS
12-20-2008, 04:04 PM
Yeah exactly!
Dont forget that the big news corps are founded on being sensational and making you think and feel that the only reason you are not dead is because you are watching them...remember they rely on having a crisis to report to make you tune in, they're running a business too (not undermining news or saying we should all switch off but its not good to get sucked into their fear mongering)

There is plenty of good news out there, but the "in thing" to do right now is talk about how terrible things are..and as soon as you start focusing on the negative, thats all you'll see.

Maybe those who are laid off will not being able to buy so many things, will have to budget during the uncertain times. But they will have extra time on their hands, perhaps they can now make that website they've always wanted to do, get back into drawing, learn how to print t-shirts, read the backlog of books they have, start the project they've always wanted to do, spend time with the kids, play sport, go for long walks etc...things that cost little to no money.
Of course its worrying to not have a job, and i feel for those in that position, but there is a brighter side too, and i think holding on to and maximising the bright side is the best way to deal with this change...
its just a change not the end.

how much did they pay you for this? :D (I'm already in the dark...*cough* negative side)

alexyork
12-20-2008, 04:43 PM
Maybe those who are laid off will not being able to buy so many things, will have to budget during the uncertain times. But they will have extra time on their hands, perhaps they can now make that website they've always wanted to do, get back into drawing, learn how to print t-shirts, read the backlog of books they have, start the project they've always wanted to do, spend time with the kids, play sport, go for long walks etc...things that cost little to no money.
Of course its worrying to not have a job, and i feel for those in that position, but there is a brighter side too, and i think holding on to and maximising the bright side is the best way to deal with this change...
its just a change not the end.

that's fine if you have savings. but if you were living within your means by barely breaking even and you then lose your job you're in a real mess. i know many already in this situation and, as has been said, it's not even 2009 yet. i think most recently unemployed people will be thinking about finding a new job to support themselves and their families before finding the nicest parks to go for long walks in or what new sport to pick up. but i know what you mean.

that said, yes i think people who are not currently unemployed should keep looking on the bright side. but it's also an important time to plan ahead. i think most people should expect to be out of work for some time next year. if it doesn't happen then great, if it does, well you've got a plan to fall back on.

TJFrame
12-20-2008, 06:30 PM
you want to get spending to work against that deflation, before it turns into that ugly hyperinflation...

Ha Ha.. fat chance! Bernanke and Paulson have the electronic printing presses working 24/7 adding zeros to our debt. The Federal Reserve is comitted to debasing the dollar out of existance. Fiat currencies have NEVER worked in the long term ever in history, not a single one. In America, at least, rampant inflation is inevitable I think. Bernanke once said that he was willing to drop dollar bills out of a helicopter in order to prevent deflation. Of course they have already overshot, and it is simply a matter of time until it filters into the consumer economy.

Oh yea.. Since Greenspan was in office the US government has lied about real inflation anyway by removing certain parts of the CPI calculations in order to make it seem like inflation is much less than it really is. Ask youself, how much did it cost to go to a movie theater 10 years ago or buy a loaf of bread. THAT is an indicator of real inflation.

Even if we escape some sort of Weimar type hyperinflation and squeek by on a nasty bout of stagflation, when the bond and derivatives market bubble eventually implodes one of these days things are going to get much much worse.. At some point the rest of the world is going try to try and call in their debts, or just simply stop buying our t-bills and the US will implode overnight.

As for EA losing jobs.. I hope that my buddies working at EA LA are not going to get pinched. Merry Freakin Christmas!

stevopolis
12-20-2008, 07:31 PM
I'm sure you all have made the same assumptions about EA. From word of mouth from ex-employees, I've heard that EA's execs are way overpaid. I'm sure the execs are all seeing their bonuses this year and they aren't taking any pay cuts. You profit a lot due to the artists and technicians, and then they are the first people you lay off.

anobrin
12-20-2008, 07:54 PM
Ha Ha.. fat chance! Bernanke and Paulson have the electronic printing presses working 24/7 adding zeros to our debt. The Federal Reserve is comitted to debasing the dollar out of existance. Fiat currencies have NEVER worked in the long term ever in history, not a single one. In America, at least, rampant inflation is inevitable I think. Bernanke once said that he was willing to drop dollar bills out of a helicopter in order to prevent deflation. Of course they have already overshot, and it is simply a matter of time until it filters into the consumer economy.

Oh yea.. Since Greenspan was in office the US government has lied about real inflation anyway by removing certain parts of the CPI calculations in order to make it seem like inflation is much less than it really is. Ask youself, how much did it cost to go to a movie theater 10 years ago or buy a loaf of bread. THAT is an indicator of real inflation.

Even if we escape some sort of Weimar type hyperinflation and squeek by on a nasty bout of stagflation, when the bond and derivatives market bubble eventually implodes one of these days things are going to get much much worse.. At some point the rest of the world is going try to try and call in their debts, or just simply stop buying our t-bills and the US will implode overnight.

As for EA losing jobs.. I hope that my buddies working at EA LA are not going to get pinched. Merry Freakin Christmas!


Quoted For Absolute agreement!:thumbsup:

garycrump
12-20-2008, 07:56 PM
Maybe you guys should have formed a union. Many on here blasted the idea. Bet you are having second thoughts now eh!

RockinAkin
12-20-2008, 08:29 PM
Best of luck to all affected by this sad news.

Layer01
12-21-2008, 11:37 AM
@ DDS: lol Not a cent, I should check up on that shouldn't I :P

that's fine if you have savings. but if you were living within your means by barely breaking even and you then lose your job you're in a real mess. i know many already in this situation and, as has been said, it's not even 2009 yet. i think most recently unemployed people will be thinking about finding a new job to support themselves and their families before finding the nicest parks to go for long walks in or what new sport to pick up. but i know what you mean.

that said, yes i think people who are not currently unemployed should keep looking on the bright side. but it's also an important time to plan ahead. i think most people should expect to be out of work for some time next year. if it doesn't happen then great, if it does, well you've got a plan to fall back on.

I agree totally, but I think its more a result of how things have been going in our society for a while now. The reduction and in many cases elimination of social security, the constant bombardment by the media driving us to consume incredible amounts, banks offering loans and encouraging people, who really shouldn't be taking out loans, to get into dept for purchases that once would have been dealt with by saving up and so on.

But this problem is so much bigger than some lost jobs and runs into so many areas of our life its hard to know where to start. Its all tied up together. Education and the gradual decline of it, the trend towards conservative governments, the explosion of capitalism and corporate powers, the environment and its terrible state, religion, the slow splitting of society into the haves and the have nots, the educated and those who can't afford it, the focus on military and not welfare....the kitchen sink?

Its quite daunting. The alarm bells are really ringing, so not to get OT, but i think if a jolt to our way of life is what it takes to get us to look up and take notice of the things that are going on around us and maybe say "hey this isn't right!? how did it get so bad", then this crisis will have a positive side to it.


But of course I really do wish the best of luck to those affected. I hope they can find a way of keeping positive, turning the situation to their advantage, and hopefully get newer and even better doors opening for them as a result.

Strob
12-22-2008, 02:12 PM
It seems that every company with financial problems in this economic crisis thinks that the way to go out of this is to fire employees... the problem with that is if too many companies in the world do that, there will be no one to buy anything soon!

But if all those companies cut their CEO's excessive bonus and fat pay, we could go out of that a lot better!

On the oposite, a lot of companies will get bailed out with everyone's money and they will increase their ceo's bonuses and fat pays. Right now the bank who received bail out money don't want to disclose where the money is going and they don't even want to discuss it! This is so disgusting and they don't seem to realize they are dragging down the whole country and even the world in a deep mess... a big domino where everyone get dragged down one after the other.

read this about bank not willing to talk about bail out money
http://www.cnbc.com//id/28344934

I think those CEO need some butt kicking by the mass to realize what they are doing and if people don't react now we will all fall like a giant domino.

I am myself lucky to have a job (I'm self-employed) and I am too busy to organize any manifestation right now but I encourage everybody who lost their job to try to take some time to investigate the root of the problem and try to organize people reaction to all those excess we have seen from too many CEO and almost fraudulous bankers in wall street who I think are the root of the problem.

another article about AIG paying bonuses with bail out cash:
http://www.cnbc.com//id/28348419

The two articles I'm linking here are only 2 news from today's but there are news like those everyday recently. You will think: "Well... that's the financial sector, maybe it is not like that in our sector..." but everything is linked like a giant domino and our lives are really affected by those people. I'm myself living in Canada and we are at the hook of the US economy and I really feel dependent on those people decisions too.

elysianalartist
12-22-2008, 02:18 PM
@ DDS: lol Not a cent, I should check up on that shouldn't I :P

But this problem is so much bigger than some lost jobs and runs into so many areas of our life its hard to know where to start. Its all tied up together. Education and the gradual decline of it, the trend towards conservative governments, the explosion of capitalism and corporate powers, the environment and its terrible state, religion, the slow splitting of society into the haves and the have nots, the educated and those who can't afford it, the focus on military and not welfare....the kitchen sink?

.

It looks to me that this crisis makes people turn towards liberal government. Conservative government believes in free market (bailouts anyone?), meritocracy, and private sector....none of which is being implented as solutions in the US at least.



@ DDS: lol Not a cent, I should check up on that shouldn't I :P

The reduction and in many cases elimination of social security, the constant bombardment by the media driving us to consume incredible amounts, banks offering loans and encouraging people, who really shouldn't be taking out loans, to get into dept for purchases that once would have been dealt with by saving up and so on.



Lenders did get careless with the deregulations that took place in the 90's.....but......why isn't the ultimate responsibility ultimately lie with the people that sign the dotted line and took the loans? They knew what they were getting themselves into when they took that loan so responsibility goes both ways in my opinion.

Strob
12-22-2008, 02:25 PM
I think many companies in all industries are using this so called "crisis" to tighten their belts, we have come off many years of high growth and I imagine many companies are a little bloated so its an easy time to restructure a bit and just blame this whole financial crisis.

I totally agree with you Kabab! When some kind of terror get widely spread in the media everyday, it can be easily used as an excuse to do some lay-off without people complaining to much. Lay-off can sometimes brings a lot more money for the execs and shareholders but they need a good reason to do it. If everybody talk about an economic crisis there is no better timing to lay-off people even if the need was not really there.

So how to know if the need is really there? Easy! Just look at the execs fat pays and bonuses. If those get significantly lowered, we are in a real ecnomic crisis (and not just a mediatic one). Bit if they just increase (like it seems to be the cases in many corporation right now but I don't know about EA) that means they just don't give a shit about their employees and just want to fill their already fat pockets and blame the lay-off on the mediatic crisis.

mdee
12-22-2008, 02:38 PM
Yeah exactly!

Maybe those who are laid off will not being able to buy so many things, will have to budget during the uncertain times. But they will have extra time on their hands, perhaps they can now make that website they've always wanted to do, get back into drawing, learn how to print t-shirts, read the backlog of books they have, start the project they've always wanted to do, spend time with the kids, play sport, go for long walks etc...things that cost little to no money.


And during that time, eat what? Do you assume all people have huge savings and get golden parachute when they are sacked like some bankers?

Reality is that lay offs are borderline tragedy for a lot of regular people on normal salaries/contracts. Defaulted mortgages, unpaid bills and depression.

Hope everyone gets new jobs quick - on the positive note there are indeed studios still hiring.

Personally I believe that so called crisis is used by lots of coroporation as an excuse to cut costs and raise profits. Profit based system is obsolete and needs to be changed, period, it's exploitation of human race by very small percentage of individuals.

szewei
12-22-2008, 03:13 PM
On a more positive note for people in the gaming industry: read this article from the Financial Times. (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/69d52b84-c4c7-11dd-8124-000077b07658.html?nclick_check=1)

Hopefully things aren't that bad and people who will loose their jobs will find new ones pretty fast... Fingers crossed!

XLNT-3d
12-22-2008, 06:35 PM
on the good side at least those employees should be able to get around their non compete contracts and go work for whoever.

thorn3d
12-22-2008, 09:04 PM
Maybe you guys should have formed a union. Many on here blasted the idea. Bet you are having second thoughts now eh!

Yes, that's worked out so well for Detroit's business model. ;)

thorn

garycrump
12-23-2008, 05:03 AM
Yes, that's worked out so well for Detroit's business model. ;)

thorn


There is more than one Union in the world Mr. smarts!

inguatu
12-23-2008, 02:04 PM
I agree, although this is reality. Turn on TV, news suck as well. This is no exception...you can't stay positive in this situation. Gotta stay real.

Although I'm pretty sure EA and other companies are trying hard to keep h their employees...I think they should try harder. This year has to be a MASSIVE sacrifice, specially for big companies like EA, they still make a lot of money compared to other companies.

As always company first, employee second :hmm:


I agree. As bad as news can be, it's better to be informed about what's going on in the industry. Keep up the posts!

inguatu
12-23-2008, 02:05 PM
There is more than one Union in the world Mr. smarts!

and most aren't worth their weight or hot air, Miss Smarty.

thorn3d
12-23-2008, 03:13 PM
Personally I believe that so called crisis is used by lots of coroporation as an excuse to cut costs and raise profits.

That may be the case in a few businesses, but as a whole it is not. I work in the broadcast industry, and can promise you that all our layoffs and cost-cutting is directly related to the fact that consumers are buying less. Therefore companies have less revenues, which means companies spend less on advertising, which means broadcasters earn lower revenues and have to cut costs.

Profit based system is obsolete and needs to be changed, period

So... are you willing to start a business that will make no profit? Or perhaps work at a company for no salary?

thorn

SheepFactory
12-23-2008, 03:41 PM
There is more than one Union in the world Mr. smarts!


They are all equally useless.

garycrump
12-24-2008, 03:50 AM
They are all equally useless.


Oh yeah did it ever occur to you that technically most corporations are
unions.

They have Presidents. They have board heads. They have their own interest.
They have one thing most worker Unions don't have.... the upper hand.
Mainly because most workers and consumers are to dumb to realize they should have equal power in consideration and respect of any consumer oriented product market.
If a company lays off everyone who will buy their product.
No workers, no products, no consumers,.....then no banks.
Hello Depression. Get it.

Guess you never thought of it that way. To just say every Union is useless is about
the dumbest thing one could say. That is like saying every corporation is greedy.
Some good some bad. We just got alot of bad ones this cycle.
Life is balance. Unions bad or good provide balance to the market and keeps fair compensation in check just like regulations do. See without a union top management can
bleed the company dry. This is why there were so many hostile takeovers in public companies in the 80s and 90s so the people who did not build the company could come in many times and rape the company dry without any concern for the welfare of the workers. The banks covered it up nice and neately by overextending credit to everyone to maintain the mirage of the wealth. But it was all credit with no true assets. Now you gonna see the American Market naked and bare. And it aint gonna be pretty.The american worker and consumer is now broke. Yet they still hate unions because the coporate media has brainwashed them. Go see the Matrix. Get off the Blue Pill get the Red pill.


Have you notice since the slide since the 1984 when they started destroying the Unions and deregulated most of the markets. Come to think of it maybe you should go read the book "1984". Also do some financial reading ala 1925-1936 maybe you will see the light.

thorn3d
12-24-2008, 05:22 AM
Oh yeah did it ever occur to you that technically most corporations are unions. They have Presidents. They have board heads. They have their own interest.
So does the PTA, but that doesnt make them a union either.

They have one thing most worker Unions don't have.... the upper hand.
Mainly because most workers and consumers are to dumb to realize they should have equal power in consideration and respect of any consumer oriented product market.
Workers have the power to work for an offered wage, work for any number of companies, reject employment offers, or cease working for a particular employer. Consumers have the power to purchase a product, purchase a competitor's product, or purchase no product at all. Those two groups have a lot of power.

But workers and consumers have no more right to tell a company owner what they must do with their company, than your neighbor has a right to tell you what to wear.

Unions bad or good provide balance to the market and keeps fair compensation in check just like regulations do.
No, they don't. By and large, unions exclude non-union workers from gaining employment. Unions take away rights of the individual worker. Unions leverage their power to in effect blackmail corporations to bow to their demands, however unreasonable.

When a factory worker is making $45-65/hr and getting 100% free health care - while the company loses millions year after year, that's not fair compensation. That's perversion of labor and production.

See without a union top management can bleed the company dry.
This can happen with, or without a union. GM is bleeding so much they need $10 BILLION DOLLARS to stay solvent for the next few months - and the UAW has been right along for the ride on that one.

...random unrelated text snipped...

Have you notice since the slide since the 1984 when they started destroying the Unions and deregulated most of the markets. Come to think of it maybe you should go read the book "1984".
Perhaps you should reread it yourself... as the socialism in Orwell's book is far closer to the "perfect" labor union than laissez-faire capitalism.

thorn

garycrump
12-24-2008, 07:32 AM
So does the PTA, but that doesnt make them a union either.

But workers and consumers have no more right to tell a company owner what they must do with their company, than your neighbor has a right to tell you what to wear.


wrong consumers can just stop buying there product.
People stop buying American cars because the corporate management you love so much
were making products they did not want anymore and the management was too blind to adjust. They did not stop buying because a Union worker was making $50 and hour!
thorn


When a factory worker is making $45-65/hr and getting 100% free health care - while the company loses millions year after year, that's not fair compensation. That's perversion of labor and production.


It is amazing how you do not mention the tens of Millions the CEOs are making at the car
companies while they flytheir corporate Jets every 40 minutes to a unnecessay meeting somewhere. Wonder why that is. If a man stands on a production line for 20 plus yers and has two kids in college and a family you think $55 and hour is too much after 20 years. Get a clue! Next time you go on a job turn down there Health Care and pay for it yourself maybe you will have a change of opinion. Since it so free and all. Sheesh!


Perhaps you should reread it yourself... as the socialism in Orwell's book is far closer to the "perfect" labor union than laissez-faire capitalism.



No you should read it. Orwell's Totalitarian goverment (not socialism) is a goverment system that uses brutal force to impose it's will. True Unions in a free market capitalistic society like ours are still Democratic however in "1984" they destroy all gatherings of citizens aka "Unions of interest" to let the Royalist control the system. DID you read it all or is your perspective still altered toward favoring the rich and pity for the common worker that you still do not understand the story?

DecWest
12-24-2008, 10:14 AM
Unionised workforce was a fantastic invention years ago when the world revolved around most people being employed as physical 'grafters' under a minority of educated and ultra weather ruling classes.

Unionisation brought a degree of fairness, humanity and organisation and legal representation to the largely exploited workforce.

Unions later become a menace, slow, beaurocratic, self serving and counter productive - see UK Industry in the 1970's onwards.......shocking stuff (for a first world country!)

Unions are not really necessary per say - a good media lawyer, the ability seek free and impartial (and relevant) advice from sources such as CGSociety and ultimately being a recognised professional 'tradesman' should stand you in good stead.

I have a feeling that its not so much 'us' the workforce has to change, its the nature of the workplace and the concept/relationship of 'working' in a large corporate structure that might need changing.

thorn3d
12-24-2008, 01:01 PM
Gary,

When the CEO of a multi-billion dollar corporation is running it into the red for years upon years, of course they don't deserve to make millions. That's an issue completely seperate from unions. You've claimed that unions keep the management's financial actions in check - and this is simply not true. Unions don't exist to control CEO salaries. That is not their goal, and never has been.

As to private jets: if i was the head of such a large company, I'd want a private jet too. Hell, I want one now. The benefits of avoiding the hassle of dealing with TSA (incidentally, also represented by unions) would be worth the cost of jet fuel. When Congress calls demanding a face-to-face, I wouldn't want to wait 3 hrs in line while unionized flunkies determine if my latte is explosive.

1984: Yes, I've read it. More times than I can count... which means I know what Ingsoc stands for. ;) Arguing over proper term for that govt structure is nearly semantics... yes, it's totalitarian, but the Party came to exist after a socialist revolution.

Time to go to work now.

thorn

elysianalartist
12-24-2008, 03:12 PM
wrong consumers can just stop buying there product.
People stop buying American cars because the corporate management you love so much
were making products they did not want anymore and the management was too blind to adjust. They did not stop buying because a Union worker was making $50 and hour!
thorn




It's funny how you don't mention all the regulations that Congress has put on Detroit. In a free market those CEO's would be able to make a car consumers wanted or didn't want and all the responsibility of success or failure is on the CEO's. So if I wanted an SUV regardless of what Congress wanted the CEO would make it. But in reality Congress has put so many environmental standards on the cars and requiring this and that .....the hands of the CEO's are tied. Japanese cars don't have miles to the gallon standards........they don't have Unions. It's funny how the right to work states aren't coming to Congress for a handout.

Just to point something out about Unions and exploitation. The Teachers Unions gave over 1 million to oppose Proposition 8 out in California and was the single biggest contributor to the opposition. People complain about exploitations of the worker but how is taking teachers money and giving it to a cause that has nothing to do with teaching not exploitation of teachers?



It is amazing how you do not mention the tens of Millions the CEOs are making at the car
companies while they flytheir corporate Jets every 40 minutes to a unnecessay meeting somewhere. Wonder why that is. If a man stands on a production line for 20 plus yers and has two kids in college and a family you think $55 and hour is too much after 20 years. Get a clue! Next time you go on a job turn down there Health Care and pay for it yourself maybe you will have a change of opinion. Since it so free and all. Sheesh!



Why aren't people up in arms about Nancy Pelosi and her private jet like they are over the CEO's? Congress just voted themselves a big pay raise after Nancy sat there and said the americans are hurting. If CEO's of big corporations should have consequences for running the company into the ground what about Congress? What has Congress done to deserve that raise that they voted themselves? Why aren't Congress's feet being held to the fire like everyone else's.

garycrump
12-24-2008, 04:20 PM
Gary,

When the CEO of a multi-billion dollar corporation is running it into the red for years upon years, of course they don't deserve to make millions. That's an issue completely seperate from unions. You've claimed that unions keep the management's financial actions in check - and this is simply not true. Unions don't exist to control CEO salaries. That is not their goal, and never has been.

thorn

A organized well run effective union not the UAW or teachers Union will keep the balance in check. Corporations would race to the bottom to offer the most maximun profit to the
market to Justify the CEO Bonus incentive laced salary. What do you guys not understand about this. Go read any major paper and ask yourselves why are so many banks asking for a Bailout. Why are so many retailers going out of business. They do not have Unions.
If Detroit is going bankrupt why are these banks failing they do not have Union neither do many Retailers. See my point it has nothing to do with the workers its the Greed of many larger insititutions in the unregulated free market. The President Elect and the PM of Britian and many new World leadrs have said so. This constant lets push it on the workers ain't gonna fly anymore . Realitiy is here. Wake up people!

thorn3d
12-24-2008, 04:46 PM
Go read any major paper and ask yourselves why are so many banks asking for a Bailout. Why are so many retailers going out of business. They do not have Unions.

Detroit had unions, and it is failing.

The banks don't have unions, and they are failing.

So... you're basically saying... what, exactly?

Earlier, you implied that if a company (say, a art studio) was filled with Union workers, then the layoffs at EA would not have happened.

Now you point out that Citibank needs a bailout and House of Fashion Inc is going under.... they don't have unions, and yet their troubles are still happening.

Huh?

If Unions are the savior to the economy, then why are both union and non-union businesses failing? Your points aren't even supporting themselves, let alone your base argument.

I'll just go with ... Merry Christmas. :)

thorn

kelgy
12-24-2008, 04:59 PM
This conversation has me thinking of a movie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxQXMbynSa0

garycrump
12-24-2008, 05:23 PM
This conversation has me thinking of a movie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxQXMbynSa0


Cheesy but Love it! :applause:

greekdish
12-26-2008, 12:42 AM
And during that time, eat what? Do you assume all people have huge savings and get golden parachute when they are sacked like some bankers?

Reality is that lay offs are borderline tragedy for a lot of regular people on normal salaries/contracts. Defaulted mortgages, unpaid bills and depression.

Hope everyone gets new jobs quick - on the positive note there are indeed studios still hiring.

Personally I believe that so called crisis is used by lots of coroporation as an excuse to cut costs and raise profits. Profit based system is obsolete and needs to be changed, period, it's exploitation of human race by very small percentage of individuals.

Profit based system is obsolete?? LOL. Yeah ok. I guess we should go to a socialist/communist system where everyone gets paid the same no matter if you work twice as hard as someone else or not. Maybe we should implement a government system where they tell you what career path you should choose??

Look, no one likes getting laid off or losing a job. Im a freelance web designer and my contract ended last month, basically, I am unemployed right now. Im not here blaming anyone. Too many people get caught up in the blame the CEO's or the owners of the companies. Its business. Period. People want the owners and CEO's to take paycuts. Why? They have their expenses as well. People need to be responsible for themselves. Im tired of people making excuses and playing the blame game when they lose their jobs. Get off your butt and go find a new one, or do something else in the meantime. I have changed my career quite a few times to make ends meet, and Im always learning, trying to improve my "marketability". I went from being in prepress, to production artist, to restaurant owner, to web designer now. Throughout the past 8 years or so, I have been trying to learn 3d and animation in my spare time. I still love 3d and animating, but web design is my calling right now and whats making me money. Adapt and over come.

Im sorry, but if Im self employed, work my tail off for 5 years and start my own business and end up having a company with 30 employees and make $2 million a year....who is going to tell me how much to pay myself?? The audacity of people to think CEO's/Owners are overpaid is comical. People posted here that they make the money off the artists and professionals....well, they lose money off the artists and professionals as well. It works both ways.

All Im saying is...I wish people would get off the blame game. My sympathies to those who lost their jobs, but I am in the same boat. Keep plugging away. Things will get better. Everyone knows that employees come and go to the highest bidder and bear no loyalties to the companies, why should they when times are tight?? They will keep whoever they feel is an asset to the company. Capitalism and competition are driving economies higher. Regulations are whats killing them. Keep the government out of our business...let the market dictate success. Unfortunately....its not happening.

I hope I didnt come off harsh and cold hearted, its just reality. Best of luck to everyone and keep your heads up and keep working hard. Things will get better.

ThE_JacO
12-26-2008, 12:52 AM
I'd like to remind everyone that this is a NEWS thread, that it's (fundamentally) about EA and its ex employees, and that we have a no politics rule in this forum.
Further union pimping or socialist bashing will be answered with deadly force (forcing all parties involved to sit through a full month of video recordings of all Hoffa's speeches).

greekdish
12-26-2008, 12:57 AM
A organized well run effective union not the UAW or teachers Union will keep the balance in check. Corporations would race to the bottom to offer the most maximun profit to the
market to Justify the CEO Bonus incentive laced salary. What do you guys not understand about this. Go read any major paper and ask yourselves why are so many banks asking for a Bailout. Why are so many retailers going out of business. They do not have Unions.
If Detroit is going bankrupt why are these banks failing they do not have Union neither do many Retailers. See my point it has nothing to do with the workers its the Greed of many larger insititutions in the unregulated free market. The President Elect and the PM of Britian and many new World leadrs have said so. This constant lets push it on the workers ain't gonna fly anymore . Realitiy is here. Wake up people!

Unions are obsolete Gary. Thats a fact. Maybe they were needed back in the day before the Dept. of Labor laws, and that is debatable, but they certainly are not necessary nowadays, and that is not debatable. Why should Union bosses force companies to pay higher wages when its not deserved? Employees are free to work there or not....yet the companies cannot fire employees if they see fit? How is it a free country here in the USA when you have mafia hitmen and blackmailers telling you how much to pay employees?? Its a free country, and you can either go find another job, or negotiate a higher wage. Too many people want to stay in a comfort zone however and not uproot their families to get a different job at a different factory out of state....thats not the company's fault. You have a right to strike and not work, but the companies should have a right to hire anyone they see fit to replace you. Unions dont work in a global economy. Unions here in the USA are NOTHING like the unions in other countries. In Japan, unions strike, and thus the loss of productivity, about 1/10th that of American unions. Its no surprise that most jobs that have been lost to outsourcing are union jobs.

greekdish
12-26-2008, 12:58 AM
I'd like to remind everyone that this is a NEWS thread, that it's (fundamentally) about EA and its ex employees, and that we have a no politics rule in this forum.
Further union pimping or socialist bashing will be answered with deadly force (forcing all parties involved to sit through a full month of video recordings of all Hoffa's speeches).

My apologies. No more debating from me. Sorry. :deal:

kelgy
12-26-2008, 06:04 PM
I had a friend who worked for EA at one branch location. He started as a game tester and ended up in a high paying technical position because they had brought in a new technology that no one there wanted to play with and it ended up being very important. They took him to a strip club when they were negotiating his contract and tried to get him liquored up and distracted with a lap dance so he would make a mistake. He said he drank lots of water beforehand to nullify the effect.

Anyway-he said he was surprised and disappointed to discover in his time there that the management people didnt care at all about the games they made-they didnt even play them. It was just a business-they had no love or interest for the products.

I have worked for tiny companies where the boss was also the delivery guy, and it was the same thing. He didnt care about what he made--it was just business and selling. Not saying that is wrong, but you assume every business would be based upon someone wanting to make a product that they really like, first and foremost, but how often is that the case?


PS
The common sense idea behind regulations is to prevent human nature from doing what it does naturally, i.e getting too greedy and stupid, which can happen regardless of your political persuasion. Examples would be dumping toxic sludge into rivers to cut costs for cleanup, or not having proper oversight of financial markets by the SEC so someone like Bernard Madoff can run a $ 50 billion ponzi scheme for decades.


I think CEOs definitely know something about audacity:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27075884/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27075884/)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/14/AR2008121402670_pf.html

garycrump
12-26-2008, 06:06 PM
To all of those who have debated on this thread

Go rent and see the Classic "It's a wonderful life".

In it lies the conclusion to the matter.

To thorn,greekdish,Sheepfactory,Jaco and everyone on the Forum Merry Xmas,
Happy Holidays and hope you all have wonderful happy prosperous New Year!

ragecg
12-31-2008, 05:50 AM
To all those who lost their jobs recently, like myself, take care and hopefully things will get better soon...

....I wish i lived in CA or NY, lol......

myd00m
12-31-2008, 10:37 PM
Most of the game industry right now is made up of nothing but "fanboys" instead of artists. I think there are a lot of people who enjoy(ed) playing games and decide that they are fit to make them. Most people confuse 3D ART with game PLAY. I blame most of this on the game art programs that get offered at art schools. The schools tell the people if they like playing games, then making 3D Art is fit for them just so they take their $$$$MONEY$$$$. The teachers are trained and encouraged to tell the students that their work is good even when it sucks. I am sure if you went to art school and can remember the 90% of the class who were just god awful at 3D. The "fanboy" types who always talked about games, came to school with collectors edition boxes, and wore "playstation" or "xbox" shirts. The same people who hung out with the teachers and raised their hands first to comment or ask questions. The students who would walk by and give everyone pointers and refer to the rest of the class as "noobs." It's like they get jobs in the game industry just to show everyone how insecure they are and how cool they are for working in the industry. Art is a talent and skill you get priveleged with not a trade you can take courses on and get. Some people can and some can't, learn to accept it. Most of those people who can't get hired at places because sometimes they are the only candidates. When the ship sinks and companies need to throw weight off, they throw the people who "can't" off. If you enjoy playing games go work QA, don't waste actual artist slots. The same goes for some game designers. In my amature opinion the industry is in a state of inflation because games became and are getting bigger and more profitable, so everyone wants to jump on board.

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