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HanDron
06-20-2003, 08:19 PM
These forums can provide some valuable information. Among that information, IMHO, are some real gems. For instance, we have the direct input from Authors, Publishers, Company Directors, and other working professionals. It never ceases to amaze me when one of the above promotes their product or services and is given a hard time for it. This isn’t always the case but it happens frequently. I am glad they are there. It helps me to evaluate their product. I am able to see the authors knowledge, integrity, and maturity in their responses. They are all professionals yet some of them feel that they have to defend or justify their self-promotions because a few of the harsh responses the receive from time to time. If they themselves didn’t step in once in a while I would forget that they are there. It is up to the consumer to investigate everything they are told. I appreciate that the authors and such are available for questions and comments. They never say “It’s all in my book. Buy it!” then leave you hanging without another word. Instead they give many free tips and then will allude to the fact that there is more in depth discussions in their material. Don’t be afraid to self-promote. Let the consumer investigate what you’ve said and look for any information that may contradict what you’re promoting. If you see that the product was received and reviewed well then you’ll know the author has integrity and you can take him at his word. Too many want things for free. As for others they want a guarantee or a “win, win” situation. This can’t always happen. Listen to the authors and publishers, listen to reviews, and then make a decision to purchase. It may very well end up that the product didn’t work out for you. But what more could you have done. As an illustration, you could watch a movie on TV, then the following day you tell a friend “Hey I saw a really cool movie on TV last night” and generally forget about the commercials in between it. You would never say “it would have been a really good movie but this one commercial ruined it for me.” The same holds true for a forum thread. If you encounter a self-promotion just continue on if you find no value in it, but I can assure you that some, like me, might find it useful. I am also a complete beginner and have been looking into the different learning resources. So I would like to thank them for the time they give the forums. Just MHO:applause: What? You want another speech? No, I couldn't, really.:D

kurv
06-20-2003, 11:37 PM
This is great information to read, thanks HanDron!!!

I truly just love CG and want to be a part of the community... When I can pass along a good deal, IMHO I will...

I try to not let the negative stuff get to me...

Thanks!!

proton
06-20-2003, 11:57 PM
I love seeing everyone participate in forums....I think some individuals on forums lose sight of what forums are for.....if you don't like a thread or post.. I welcome shameless plugs...especially when I learn about a new product, offer, or artist!

Rei Ayanami
06-21-2003, 12:04 AM
I agree with you here, I dont care if somone sais some stupid comment in the middle of a thread (i would be hypocticial if i did). I have learnt to ignore things like this and just concentrate on the good stuff. Its a shame that other people round here cant do this. Some dude just left because of this, and its a real shame if it continues to happen.

Grow up.

Jonathan
06-21-2003, 12:44 AM
It's easy to get side-tracked online because often people don't make room for culture and there are people here from all over the world.

I can deal with most americans but having lived in 8 states and ventured 19 of them some cultures at home are like countries all their own and the accents are so heavy that even americans have trouble understanding them.

I truely however have a big intolerance for blanket judgment and mis-information and assumption. Often in these forums I find many people judge and criticize without actually reading what the author wrote. For instance:

A member a while back did an incredible model of a street fighter character that he modeled from an action figure. He made it just like he saw it and all down the post people were saying change this and that and that part is wrong or aweful, but had they read his initial post they would have known that he was modelling from an action figure and had a picture posted of it as well.

Then there is also the popularity push. Yes some groups or individuals here are held in high reverence and can't ever do any wrong. When wrong is done the person who is literally trying to defend himself gets jumped up by the loyal fan base. I've seen that happen here more than once.

Then furthermore is the software religion. If I say something like, "Lightwave's animation system sucks!" Yep people are ready to knock me down for it and people have elluded to all kinds of insults from competency to ignorance without even knowing that the person was probably speaking from experience.

CIM is a big example. Most of what he says has much truth to it. He just doens't beat around the bush with his words and people take it the wrong way. Yet most didn't know of the Lscripts that he contributed to the community and that he is a competent artist. He too speaks from experience but if anyone says that their chosen software is flawed. ....all hell breaks loose by many.

Chewey
06-21-2003, 01:18 AM
Originally posted by Jonathan
It's easy to get side-tracked online because often people don't make room for culture and there are people here from all over the world.

I can deal with most americans but having lived in 8 states and ventured 19 of them some cultures at home are like countries all their own and the accents are so heavy that even americans have trouble understanding them.

I truely however have a big intolerance for blanket judgment and mis-information and assumption. Often in these forums I find many people judge and criticize without actually reading what the author wrote. For instance:

A member a while back did an incredible model of a street fighter character that he modeled from an action figure. He made it just like he saw it and all down the post people were saying change this and that and that part is wrong or aweful, but had they read his initial post they would have known that he was modelling from an action figure and had a picture posted of it as well.

Then there is also the popularity push. Yes some groups or individuals here are held in high reverence and can't ever do any wrong. When wrong is done the person who is literally trying to defend himself gets jumped up by the loyal fan base. I've seen that happen here more than once.

Then furthermore is the software religion. If I say something like, "Lightwave's animation system sucks!" Yep people are ready to knock me down for it and people have elluded to all kinds of insults from competency to ignorance without even knowing that the person was probably speaking from experience.

CIM is a big example. Most of what he says has much truth to it. He just doens't beat around the bush with his words and people take it the wrong way. Yet most didn't know of the Lscripts that he contributed to the community and that he is a competent artist. He too speaks from experience but if anyone says that their chosen software is flawed. ....all hell breaks loose by many.

I concur with your first couple of points but on your last I'd have to respectfully part company with you.

In all honesty, it had 99% to do with the frequency, location and tactless manner that his comments were placed and a lot less to do with whatever "truth" was included. Offering Lscript freebies shouldn't preclude one from following the forum rules and etiquette. My poking my index finger in your eye and saying sorry but that's just my style, certainly doesn't make your eye any less sore from the experience.

I wouldn't venture a comment on whether he's competant as an artist or not since he chose not to display anything more than a poorly textured avatar.

wgreenlee1
06-21-2003, 01:51 AM
Whats this have to do with Lightwave?

Chewey
06-21-2003, 02:31 AM
Originally posted by HanDron
These forums can provide some valuable information. Among that information, IMHO, are some real gems. For instance, we have the direct input from Authors, Publishers, Company Directors, and other working professionals. It never ceases to amaze me when one of the above promotes their product or services and is given a hard time for it. This isn’t always the case but it happens frequently. I am glad they are there. It helps me to evaluate their product. I am able to see the authors knowledge, integrity, and maturity in their responses. They are all professionals yet some of them feel that they have to defend or justify their self-promotions because a few of the harsh responses the receive from time to time. If they themselves didn’t step in once in a while I would forget that they are there. It is up to the consumer to investigate everything they are told. I appreciate that the authors and such are available for questions and comments. They never say “It’s all in my book. Buy it!” then leave you hanging without another word. Instead they give many free tips and then will allude to the fact that there is more in depth discussions in their material. Don’t be afraid to self-promote. Let the consumer investigate what you’ve said and look for any information that may contradict what you’re promoting. If you see that the product was received and reviewed well then you’ll know the author has integrity and you can take him at his word. Too many want things for free. As for others they want a guarantee or a “win, win” situation. This can’t always happen. Listen to the authors and publishers, listen to reviews, and then make a decision to purchase. It may very well end up that the product didn’t work out for you. But what more could you have done. As an illustration, you could watch a movie on TV, then the following day you tell a friend “Hey I saw a really cool movie on TV last night” and generally forget about the commercials in between it. You would never say “it would have been a really good movie but this one commercial ruined it for me.” The same holds true for a forum thread. If you encounter a self-promotion just continue on if you find no value in it, but I can assure you that some, like me, might find it useful. I am also a complete beginner and have been looking into the different learning resources. So I would like to thank them for the time they give the forums. Just MHO:applause: What? You want another speech? No, I couldn't, really.:D

I agree. No reason for the harsh treatment given to those that have tried to participate in some of these threads.

freerider
06-21-2003, 02:41 AM
I agree with Jonathan on everything he wrote. Including his example regarding CIM. At the risk of being made a target myself. In my opinion CIM is/was a valuable member of this forum. I strongly dislike software religion. There is no such thing as the perfect application, so why pretend there is. Having someone here that dared to talk about the things that aren't perfect, made this place better. There should be a difference between loving your chosen application and attacking whoever dares to point out its shortcomings. We may dislike the language in which he sometimes voiced his opinions, but he was clearly not the only one guilty of using bad language at times. I very much hope that this place is not becoming a "love it or leave it" lw forum. I think it would become a porer place. I for one value constructive critisism, just as much as praise. I think it is needed in the long run.

Lately some threads have deteriorated into arguments because of posts that may or may not be promotions of products. I agree with HanDrons, I feel they do no harm and can do much good for the right people.

I truly wish we could be a little more accepting. If you see a post you don't like, just ignore it. Wether it be a promotional plug or a lw critique. In either case it is not an attack on you, and shouldn't be taken personally.

Chewey
06-21-2003, 03:23 AM
Originally posted by freerider
snip...

In my opinion CIM is/was a valuable member of this forum. I strongly dislike software religion. There is no such thing as the perfect application, so why pretend there is. Having someone here that dared to talk about the things that aren't perfect, made this place better.
snip...



Happily the mods held a different opinion and indeed that and the action taken has made this forum a better place. :thumbsup:

Zarathustra
06-21-2003, 05:30 AM
I love Jonathon's comments, but it's OT from the original post and has subsequently changed the topic of this thread.

Ok, ORIGINAL topic:
There are certain people who have stuff to sell and come off either a little pushy or a little ingenuous when they discuss a topic because in there is an infomercial. It is what it is. I understand needing to make a buck, but don't try and pretend you're not trying to make a buck. Just be honest.

Jonathon's comments:

Yes, certain users and topics are apparently teflon coated here and if you point negatively at them then everyone points and screeches at you like Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

I was toubled by the action taken against CIM because I think he's just a straight shooter and not malicious. He doesn't seek out users for attacks nor does he engage in prolonged, stupid battles with other users. The situation around here has gotten bad and CIM was too easy a target to make an example of. I think there are others who should get it, but things like the Cult of personality issue discussed above, I think, prevents them from being punished. I also feel they saw CIM as a safe target in that no one would complain.

Hopefully it's not a complete dream to expect people to offer help and critiques altruistically.

I would just like everyone to try and remember that first month or so of starting Lightwave and when newbs post questions, try and respond with something that would have helped you back then.

SplineGod
06-21-2003, 06:02 AM
Originally posted by Jonathan

Then furthermore is the software religion. If I say something like, "Lightwave's animation system sucks!" Yep people are ready to knock me down for it and people have elluded to all kinds of insults from competency to ignorance without even knowing that the person was probably speaking from experience.

CIM is a big example. Most of what he says has much truth to it. He just doens't beat around the bush with his words and people take it the wrong way. Yet most didn't know of the Lscripts that he contributed to the community and that he is a competent artist. He too speaks from experience but if anyone says that their chosen software is flawed. ....all hell breaks loose by many.
The problem I have with this is that saying "lightwaves animation system sucks" is so vague as to make it difficult to determine if you very experienced of very incompitent. Its too easy to post generic statements like that which many will regard as inflammatory. My personal experience is that LW has very good tools for character animation. Ive done a lot of it but my experience is different from yours. What I would prefer to see are specific things you find difficult and why. I cant see anything particularly useful coming from vague, negative statements.
I didnt always agree with CIM but sometimes I did. My only objection is when people rely on cheap tricks like being sarcastic, cynical or undiplomatic to cause a stir or contention. I wouldnt have banned him but I dont run this forum and we are all here at the pleaure of those who own and run this place. CIM put it best "If you cant stand the heat, get out of the kitchen". Another way to put it is "obey the rules or get banned". :)
This isnt a religion and its possible to object point out where a tool needs help or where its good or a workflow that works.

leigh
06-21-2003, 06:03 AM
As far as I am concerned, people put a hell of a lot of work into training materials/plugins/whatever that they develop or create, and promoting that stuff in a thread is absolutely fine - I mean, they created that stuff to aid people in the first place, so if someone clearly would benefit from it, then mentioning it to them in a thread makes perfect sense.

Of course, people who just register here on CG Talk so that they can spam every forum with their crap are another story altogether. Luckily we don't get them too often :)

Shade01
06-21-2003, 06:19 AM
How else are people supposed to know about this stuff?

kurv
06-21-2003, 06:20 AM
The only thing I really do not understand is why we some times get slammed for trying to offer discounts...

Example we have a book that also offers a 50.00 discount for a LightWave product, the book cost less than that (I won’t name the book as to shamelessly plug it :) ). Then we also offer a 35% discount on top of that.

But we got jumped on for explaining that. Some of the comments were like, WOW, 50.00 off a 1200 product...big deal...

I am guessing these are the same people that truly do not own LightWave anyway and do not plan on buying it.

But if you do buy upgrades, 50 bucks is 50 bucks...

My point is, Wordware is not on this forum to make a quick buck...we can do that in magazines and reach a lot more people...and we have.

No one told me to come to this forum, I truly like LightWave and want to learn it. I think it would be awesome to be able to work for a studio someday. I think LW is a much better program than Maya and Max, and want to help NewTek get the word out!!

Point being, I am not here as a rep for Wordware to sell books, trust me if I were I would need to be selling a lot more books :)

I am here because I want to see NewTek and the LW communities grow... That’s why I ask your opinions on things from time to time. I get ICQ and emails from people here all the time, with great ideas. We have gained a lot of authors from this forum and have a lot of books coming out because of it...

Great things are happening!!

wgreenlee1
06-21-2003, 07:10 AM
Originally posted by Leigh
As far as I am concerned, people put a hell of a lot of work into training materials/plugins/whatever that they develop or create, and promoting that stuff in a thread is absolutely fine - I mean, they created that stuff to aid people in the first place, so if someone clearly would benefit from it, then mentioning it to them in a thread makes perfect sense.

Of course, people who just register here on CG Talk so that they can spam every forum with their crap are another story altogether. Luckily we don't get them too often :)


No,we dont get that too often.......:rolleyes:


Theres a differance between a link,a "headsup" if you will and between spamming wares.
Flay usually posts everything relavent to Lightwave on the commercial end so why do the spammers come here to spam?
I'll fill all of you in,free advertising...
Which is fine but do they throw CGTalk a few dollars for this free advertising?I wouldnt think they would.
As far as being helpful in the forums while also spamming they actually could open up their own forum and really do a service to the community.
There are many product forums on the net.
How come the spammers dont open up their own forums and delegate to the want to be users and present users?
Is it because its free to come here and do so?
Doesnt seem fair for me to try and get into CGTalk and find that they are over bandwidth then to get in and notice all the wares teaser threads.

All in all its not really a question of having them here its a question of "tack".
I mean I dont know if all of you read all the threads as I do but there have been some strange things going on here....
I actually saw someone(that shall remain nameless) that was practically begging a forum user to subscribe to his wares and to me that seems a little weird.
Something like that should be done through PMs or something....

I'm not going to point him out but you get the point I'm trying to make.

To me all are welcome but have a little "tack" with yourself and your wares.


Back to more important things......:thumbsup:



BTW: This is just my opinion and I do not want to seem foul or combative....

leigh
06-21-2003, 07:18 AM
I think I know which user you are talking about, WGreenlee1, and he was banned earlier this week after spamming just about every thread in one particular forum with the same message, just slightly tailored with the addition of a few extra words in each thread to make it seem as if he really was addressing that artist with a real interest.

That kind of thing is absolutely tactless and is always removed from CG Talk.

As you said, giving a heads-up is great, as it conveys info to a lot of people that otherwise might not have heard about the product, but eeeuucchh reckless spamming is the pits :thumbsdow

The worst is when we get the occasional porno spammer :argh:

dark_lotus
06-21-2003, 07:29 AM
I've never seen a problem with self promotion. :shrug:

I've always chuckled at post called "Shameless self promotion", its nice that this forum can remain proffessional, and yet carry with it a real relaxed and enjoyable atmosphere.

Despite some recent negitivity, I think the forum's well on the way back.

Shade01
06-21-2003, 08:02 AM
For what it's worth, I like the presence of Wordware and others here on this board. As soon as I can get people around me to think I know what I'm talking about, maybe I'll write a book with Wordware and promote it here :)

Jonathan
06-21-2003, 08:07 AM
I didn't actually mean to go so far off topic. It's just that the part of Handron's post that struck me the most was the part about "being given a hard time" I felt I was expanding on what he was saying, but yea it is OT when I take into accout the entire post.

Sorry Handron. It was not my intent to high-jack your post.

Zarathustra
06-21-2003, 09:18 AM
I just want to go on record as saying that I understand everyone who self promotes.
I don't see how someone would have trouble with discounts offered.
I do have a problem when a user is looking for a solution and someone responds with a personal plug. I find that in poor taste.
I see nothing wrong with starting a new thread with an announcement of a new product, although wgreenlee1 brings up an interesting point about free advertising. Well, I think it's fine. That can be another debate.

wgreenlee1
06-21-2003, 11:17 AM
Frankly I dont even know why this thread was brought to our attention......
Let the spammers spam and the moaners moan...

I thought we were going to keep everything on the topic of Lightwave and keep all this mumbo jumbo he said they she said crappo toned down.......I guess not huh....

...:thumbsdow

Chewey
06-21-2003, 03:25 PM
I'm all for those who support Lightwave having an occasional presence here to give us a head's up on their product.
Saddly, I've seen Larry take a ration of negative crap from time to time about his posting here (the use of stereotypical smears against marketers etc.) even while he's been in the process of trying to provide tips and assistance. :rolleyes:

Sure, from time to time you'll see a knuckle headed spammer that decides to run rampant but the mods appear to take care of them in a timely fashion just as they've done with members that no longer grace this forum.
:applause:

Zarathustra
06-21-2003, 07:44 PM
I thought we were going to keep everything on the topic of Lightwave and keep all this mumbo jumbo he said they she said crappo toned down...

:beer:

HanDron
06-21-2003, 09:08 PM
wgreenlee1,
I was hoping to be as clear as I could with the purpose of this thread but I guess I wasn't, sorry.:hmm: The comment was long enough and I was trying to be concise.:D The basic point is that I am tired of people having to feel that they need to justify everything they do. I started this because of a previous thread which asked for which book should they buy. Some of the replies were from authors apologizing for their "shameless" plugs. In the context of the posters question it was fitting for authors to reply.
However, It also reminded me of other threads where advice was offered along with some direction to their material and people got all upset. These individuals, authors and such, spent years learning the "craft" and have something to promote for their hard work. Anyone of us would love to be in their shoes. If we had a skill to teach I'm quite sure we would teach it for free to those around us, family, freinds, etc. who have an interest in it. The question now becomes who among us would be willing to teach it world-wide for free. Larry Schultz brought out a good point just the other day. He mentioned he didn't mind giving out free tips but there are times when it gets tough because of the massive number of posts he and the boards receive.:eek:
In short, as I stated in my original post, these people aren't posting with vague answers and then running. Everthing said is lightwave related material which I thought was the point of these forums - To discuss all Lightwave related material. Everyone has an ideal of what the forums should be like. How do you satisfy them all?:shrug: By some ideals there should be only one category: Direct and Complete Answers Only!:argh:

BTW, this is a general comment and not directed at you wgreenlee1:) Woo, somebody stop me.:wip:

DigiLusionist
06-21-2003, 10:02 PM
Quote by Zarathustra:
"I do have a problem when a user is looking for a solution and someone responds with a personal plug. I find that in poor taste."

I agree. This has always bothered me. I find this rather tacky.

wgreenlee1
06-22-2003, 03:31 AM
I really dont care what the "purpose " of this thread is or was meant to be.
This really belongs in the "General Discussions" forum but I am guessing or reflecting that the mods 'mod' when they wish or when it is in their intrest to 'mod'.....

What all of this has to do with the use of Lightwave is really beyond me....

gmask
06-22-2003, 03:54 AM
Well the issues of self promotion definately has some gray areas.. the main thing is that CGtalk is funded by advertising dollars.. so that means that companies pay good money to make sure we can gab are jaws off. The issues arise when somebody .. an individual but especially a company post blatant adverts with the sole purpose of free advertising or in other cases of distrupting somebodies thread.

Any link posted here is guareenteed to get a large number of hits.. I know this from the stats on my own website which since I started hosting tutorials has gone through the roof.

Generally speaking you can make announcements and if you represent a company and make yourself useful without have an attitude or being a curmudgeon then some promotion should be tolerated.

As per the Netiquette rules established in the USENET newsgroups repeating a single message more than once could be construed as SPAMMING. So unless it's an accident you better have a very good reason to post the same message twice... especially if it is purely self promotion.

Chewey
06-22-2003, 04:51 AM
Originally posted by wgreenlee1
I really dont care what the "purpose " of this thread is or was meant to be.
This really belongs in the "General Discussions" forum but I am guessing or reflecting that the mods 'mod' when they wish or when it is in their intrest to 'mod'.....

What all of this has to do with the use of Lightwave is really beyond me....

It relates specifically to issues that have come up within the Lightwave forum.

:rolleyes:

SplineGod
06-22-2003, 05:57 AM
Chewy, Hadron, Thanks! :)
I dont think its all that hard to figure out. Ive spent a lot of time on this and other forums helping people out long before I ever got involved with creating content. You wouldnt believe the amount of email that get generated to me personally when I answer a question on a forum or mail list. Its something that people dont see here. I know this happens to other people as well. I will also say that I have never turned anyone away who has emailed me privately too. The only times youll ever see me get irritated is when Im accused of something I dont feel I deserve to be accused of and when some people EXPECT to be spoon fed.
On occassion I will post a thread about a new CD I have or a free tutorial that Ive posted etc. I dont make a habit of spamming but I will mention my courses to people who may have more general questions like: "where can I find a good tutorial about rigging?"
Theres few good free ones and if someone is serious about learning then mentioning books and courses couldnt hurt.
Sometimes I may post something I did but not say how it was done to get people to think. Its fun to figure out how someone achieved an effect. Most of the time Ill eventually say how I did it.
Theres a lot of cool things that come out of those discussions.
As chewy said, sometimes I take some flack. There have been times where I wondered if I should leave the forum or not but what keeps me here is the fact that most people seem to want me around and I learn a lot of stuff myself.
I appreciate the support many have expressed and sympathize with others who get unwarrented flack. :)

Jonathan
06-22-2003, 08:15 AM
I really dont care what the "purpose " of this thread is or was meant to be.
This really belongs in the "General Discussions" forum but I am guessing or reflecting that the mods 'mod' when they wish or when it is in their intrest to 'mod'.....
What all of this has to do with the use of Lightwave is really beyond me....



I think that this discussion is applicable, yet I often get the feeling that things are becoming far too rigid which is quite a turn-off. No pun intended but the human element is missing. We are going sketch outside of the lines every now and again. It's like the forum is supposed to be only for those in Lightwave Bliss!, when lightwave is simply a small facet of the greater part of what we do which is create content, whether it be professionally or not.

Granted it could be in the general discussions area, then again so can 90% of all lightwave posts. I can see as a Lightwave user Handron wanting to communicate what he thinks to his lightwave using peers, and what he is saying does fall under 3D, but it's not specific, yet it is applicable. It seems that the kind of absolution and rigidness that's more often being displayed after the events of late simply makes it not fun anymore. Posting now is like walking on eggshells.

freerider
06-22-2003, 09:41 AM
It seems that the kind of absolution and rigidness that's more often being displayed after the events of late simply makes it not fun anymore. Posting now is like walking on eggshells.

I agree completly.

leigh
06-22-2003, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by wgreenlee1
What all of this has to do with the use of Lightwave is really beyond me....

I do think that it has absolute relevance to this forum, as it is something that has been happening here a bit lately. The author of this thread even mentioned a specific thread where it had happened.

And admit it, you've also made remarks about this sort of thing in certain threads in the past too ;):)

So far, this thread has stayed completely tame, and so there is nothing really to "mod" as such. I'm keeping an eye on it, and the moment it turns ugly, I (or MikeRB for that matter) will deal with it :thumbsup:

Chewey
06-22-2003, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by Leigh
snip...

And admit it, you've also made remarks about this sort of thing in certain threads in the past too ;):)

snip...

as Shakespeare once penned, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." (not referring to Leigh of course.)
:scream:

Good call Leigh!

wgreenlee1
06-22-2003, 08:09 PM
Well seriously wonder about people posting like this is the only place to get information.:rolleyes:
If this is the only place on the net that you can get product information you are really missing out on a lot of things.
Handron wrote:
If they themselves didn’t step in once in a while I would forget that they are there. :rolleyes:
Leigh wrote:
The author of this thread even mentioned a specific thread where it had happened
You must be reading something into it that have missed.....:rolleyes:

See and this comment really illustrates the vaildity of my arguement.....
Handron wrote:
Larry Schultz brought out a good point just the other day. He mentioned he didn't mind giving out free tips but there are times when it gets tough because of the massive number of posts he and the boards receive.

My gosh free advice is getting the best of him isnt it?
I have seen him deny people answers to questions they had because and I quote "That is material that is on some CDs I just sold so I cant tell you how to go about that method."Not an exact quote but it was the basis of his response.So in otherwords he replied to a thread about a method and then when asked about it he refused to help further implying that you would have to buy his wares to get that info.A 'tease' if you will.
To me that is rather rude to treat the forum members like that.
All the more reason to start their own forums if it is true that larry and these other product salesmen are serious about helping others and wish to do it at no expense to the forum crowds.
Open up your own forum where you can see the questions being asked,why just think of the traffic one would drum up.....and sales to follow.
Wordware would be really well off to do the same.
Can you imagine the hits everyday to inquire about those books?
Why they would be crashing the servers everyday.


No,no one has to worry about what or how they post,that is unless you have an opinion or mannerisms that are not inline with the mainstream thinking of all involved.
Anytime someone stands and says thats not right or maybe something should be changed everyone lines up to take the punches because it doesnt suit their taste.
So quiet is in order for those who wish only to speak their mind or have an opinion?Give me a break.:rolleyes:


Another Shakespeare quote
"The first thing we do let's kill all the lawyers". --II Henry VI, IV:2

Chewey
06-22-2003, 08:25 PM
Why so bitter? :thumbsdow

wgreenlee1
06-22-2003, 08:29 PM
I'm not bitter......

Maybe the truth is?

Chewey
06-22-2003, 09:06 PM
Why do you resent and dislike Larry so much? Because he's still here and your buddy got booted?

Bingo!

:applause:

Dugg
06-22-2003, 09:14 PM
I am new to this forum and CG, and upon arriving found a divide between the technical content and the personal content. "your technical comments are welcome your personal opinions are not"
I am learning a lot from peoples likes and dislikes too.
I find both types of content can be offered in an aminable manner or with a snarky, cutting tone. That is what I find offensive.
As for self-promotion, recently, I thought someone was avoiding giving me the technical stuff, so I goaded them into it. It was worth it and then I went to the guys site and checked out his training material and it looked great so I bought it. None of that bothered me... in fact I was grateful for it.

EvilE
06-22-2003, 09:35 PM
Cmon guys stop beating each other up . Thats not what this forum is meant for so relax a lil :)

EE

Zarathustra
06-22-2003, 09:43 PM
Why do you resent and dislike Larry so much? Because he's still here and your buddy got booted?

See, this is just the thing that provokes continued conflict. Whether it's true or not, what overall good does it serve to post this?
I don't think by trying to play the good guy you become exempt of the "no personal attacks" rule.

wgreenlee1: You'd better have SPECIFIC postings bookmarked before you start trying to quote. That's dynamite you're playing with citing others words with no EXACT quote. That's just going to incite a plethora of heated responses. An exact quote would validate your argument and have your opponents backpedaling to either defend the statement or spout inflammatory gibberish. Now you've given them ammunition to flame you.

and so, it continues...

leigh
06-22-2003, 09:53 PM
Now this thread is seriously getting too hot... please guys, personal vendettas are for the PM system, not the general forum.

Chewey
06-22-2003, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by Zarathustra
See, this is just the thing that provokes continued conflict. Whether it's true or not, what overall good does it serve to post this?
I don't think by trying to play the good guy you become exempt of the "no personal attacks" rule.


snip...


Asking for a clear explanation and accountability from someone who poses as an advocate for truth is just that and not a "personal attack". We've seen a couple of disgruntled posts within this thread that have first coyly skirted at the issue and finally the truth appears to be coming out in bits and pieces.

I'd prefer to see at least a modicum of professional courtesy extended to those who actively support and are a real part of the LW community.

kurv
06-22-2003, 11:17 PM
Folks, come on, this is not going to resolve the issue. Lets just agree to disagree.

This is not like a radio station or a TV shows. If you do not lik the person posting simply ignore them, it's that simple.

You do not have to read the post...

This forum needs to be a place people can go to get help, meet other enthusiast, share ideas, work, and above all get support from others.

Let’s get back to that. Let's put our feelings towards others aside when on the forum and don't flame people, it's just not nessisary :).

proton
06-23-2003, 02:42 PM
I'll take %50 anytime.....If you look at teh price of teh book....it's like getting tehbook for free....who can complain about that? Keep me updated on great deals like that!

SplineGod
06-23-2003, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by wgreenlee1
My gosh free advice is getting the best of him isnt it?
I have seen him deny people answers to questions they had because and I quote "That is material that is on some CDs I just sold so I cant tell you how to go about that method."Not an exact quote but it was the basis of his response.So in otherwords he replied to a thread about a method and then when asked about it he refused to help further implying that you would have to buy his wares to get that info.A 'tease' if you will.
To me that is rather rude to treat the forum members like that.
All the more reason to start their own forums if it is true that larry and these other product salesmen are serious about helping others and wish to do it at no expense to the forum crowds.
Open up your own forum where you can see the questions being asked,why just think of the traffic one would drum up.....and sales to follow.

I think you need to go back and look at the thread HERE (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30630&highlight=paid) . I distinctly remember you happily participating in the thread. In fact you didnt seem to think what I said was rude but seemed to agree that it was rude of other ppl to EXPECT free info out of others. I also remember that I posted a tutorial about the nonlinear morphing technique for FREE on my website months ago. I also recall that I did post enough info for most ppl to "get it". Im pretty sure that Ive posted many many things that you didnt know before and have benefitted from.

faulknermano
06-24-2003, 04:14 PM
i'm here wondering what happened that CIM got booted. sorry but i dont log in as often as i did before in CGTALK. could someone kindly point me to "The Thread" where it all finally happened.


wgreenlee1::: So quiet is in order for those who wish only to speak their mind or have an opinion?Give me a break.

i dont think that's a fair statement. somehow, someone must draw the line, or at least give us the defines for decorum within a forum. there must be rules, or else there is chaos. there is nothing productive, in the long run, about chaos.

this has all been argued before, hasnt it? speak your opinion, but speak well, precisely, with best eloquence.

you say: "maybe something should be changed everyone lines up to take the punches because it doesnt suit their taste."

take self-awareness and you'll find out that this can be applied to you from within your point of viewing. in other words, the conservative decorum of CGTALK doesnt suit your taste. your liberal-ness does not make it correct, as if you are securing all the bases of tolerance and acceptance. liberal-ness is not liberal when you insist it upon others. but nothing ever is 'liberal.'

isnowboard
06-30-2003, 04:34 PM
@ Faulknermano, this is what you're looking for:

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69997&perpage=15&highlight=CIM%20banned&pagenumber=5

The better question is, where is wgreenlee1? He usually posts 10 to 20 ramblings, but has been quiet of late. Did he go the way of CIM from people waving their magic wand?

faulknermano
07-01-2003, 09:40 AM
thanks... it was lildragon who 'banned' him... amazing that fact. i thought leigh would be the first one to do it.

The better question is, where is wgreenlee1?

maybe the maya forums?

leigh
07-02-2003, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by faulknermano
thanks... it was lildragon who 'banned' him... amazing that fact. i thought leigh would be the first one to do it.

I personally HATE banning people (unless they are spammers or are extraordinarily abusive), and would never have banned CIM myself, even though I used to get frustrated with him sometimes. In fact, I must admit I was a bit surprised when Tito rather suddenly banned him.
Things have gotten more peaceful around here now though, so I think that perhaps it was for the best :shrug:

Shade01
07-02-2003, 09:22 PM
maybe not peaceful, just different :)

froggyplat
07-02-2003, 09:57 PM
i never thought he was all that bad (CIM, that is). annoying at times with his constant criticism, but then again, that was aimed at newtek and usually not at any individual here. but, i think he also lacked that voice...you know, the one that makes you think twice before you say something!

there have been plenty of times i've written a response to something, and then just canceled it...you can get the negative out of your system without everyone else having to see it...:)

gmask
07-02-2003, 10:02 PM
>>> i think he also lacked that voice...you know, the one that makes you think twice before you say something!

Yeah.. pretty much any question he posted in the maya forums was not complete without a jab at the program. Makes one feel really great about helping somebody who allways blames the software rather than their own ignorance of what they are doing.

The thing is you can make those crticisms without being insulting, whiny or negative.. if you wanted to..otherwise blame everything for your problems but yourself.

SplineGod
07-02-2003, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by Shade01
maybe not peaceful, just different :)
I hear that. Its interesting to see what pops out of the woodwork from time to time with nothing to say except negative things. :)

ghopper
07-02-2003, 11:10 PM
Where is CIM now, is he allowed to post again ?

Personally I think it wasn't right to ban him - just because he didn't reply with an "ego-boosting" comment to Policarpo's last thread (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69997) in the LW forum.

CIM always said what he thought. Remember :

Dont be offended, I'm simply stating a real opinion without sugar-coating it. :-)

gmask
07-02-2003, 11:18 PM
>>>Dont be offended, I'm simply stating a real opinion without sugar-coating it. :-)

Yes everybody has opinions that doens't mean that you can't or don't have to be pleasant or at least respectful to other users. Having an opinion is not a license to annoy.

vorlon
07-02-2003, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by ghopper
Dont be offended, I'm simply stating a real opinion without sugar-coating it. :-) [/B]


People seem to confuse about what communication is :eek:, being rude and sarcastic doesn't mean you're necesssarily telling the 'truth'. It just means you have an ego trip to fill for yourself.

In any message, there is content, and also the tone. You can be honest with what you want to say (content), and the affect (emotional tone) behind it can still be respectful. You don't have to be rude or disrespectful to express any of your thoughts. People seem to confuse that for some reason, I don't know why.

If being respectful is 'sugar-coated', perhaps you should try to be sarcastic with your wife/parents/children/friends/co-workers, and see how they like it, no matter what you're trying to express.

gmask
07-02-2003, 11:45 PM
>>> You don't have to be rude or disrespectful to express any of your thoughts. People seem to confuse that for some reason, I don't know why.


It have allways thought it has something to do with the anonimity of the internet and text based communications. For some reason the typical pleasantries get thrown out the window although I have worked with many people who don't have these skills in person let alone online. In person we ahe visual cues to enhance what we emote and thus the invention of the emoticon. If CIM had one it would be a green frowny face. :p

Chewey
07-03-2003, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by vorlon
People seem to confuse about what communication is :eek:, being rude and sarcastic doesn't mean you're necesssarily telling the 'truth'. It just means you have an ego trip to fill for yourself.

In any message, there is content, and also the tone. You can be honest with what you want to say (content), and the affect (emotional tone) behind it can still be respectful. You don't have to be rude or disrespectful to express any of your thoughts. People seem to confuse that for some reason, I don't know why.

If being respectful is 'sugar-coated', perhaps you should try to be sarcastic with your wife/parents/children/friends/co-workers, and see how they like it, no matter what you're trying to express.

It's funny how something as simple as knowing that you don't shit where you eat is news to some people. I never found that imparting an opinion in a tactless and boarish manner was a behaviour that deserved some special form of respect and honor. Must be a "gangsta" and "I'm only keepin it real yall" thang.:thumbsdow

leigh
07-03-2003, 01:23 AM
:curious:

I am concerned that this thread might degenerate into a flame war...

Please guys, there is no point in further discussing something that has been discussed (and dealt with in the best possible manner) any more. We are doing what we can to make this forum more peaceful, and I fear that a conversation like this could possibly jeoprodise that.

We all have our own opinions on the recent goings-on here in this forum, but nothing can change what has happened.

E_Moelzer
07-03-2003, 02:11 AM
I think that Cim actually drove it a bit too far. Actually when I saw Polis last thread, I knew Cim was going to say something like that. It just was not friendly in any way and I think the forum- owners are not too happy about their users leaving becuse of this. I also remember Cim being very rude to people, calling them all sorts of names, he thought were funny. He also more than once hijacked threads by posting comments that were not appropriate and were completely off topic. This made many interesting threads go down, or get closed because of them turning into a flame- war.
Still, maybe he should not have been banned, a harsh warning could have done it too, but this should have come much earlier then. His last post just was too much for me too and I was about to quit as well, hadnt there been any serious action by the moderators.
Now concerning self- promotion and to get back on topic:
I think that self- promotion is pretty much OK. I think everyone here does it somehow. May it be an artist posting his latest work (someone looking for a job, no?), or a plugin- developer posting news about his latest plugin. Its just as that when people mention their training- materials in their replys. I know some of them in person and they are all great and helpfull characters. many of them keep helping others for free as well. I think I dont need to mention names here. We all know them.
Many of us want to make some money from doing 3d.
Some are artists, others write software and again others write books or make CD/DVDs etc. They all profit from each other. The artists because they learn new tricks or have new tools at their hands, the plugin- developers because they sell their stuff and the ones who make training- materials too.
I dont think any artist here would be happy being bashed because of not giving his work away for free to (i.e.) a company doing packages for graphics- cards, right (just because we have had that here in the past)? So please understand the others too. They also want to make some money from the stuff they had to learn themselves. Many of them spend all day thinking of new techniques and methods for solving problems. We as artists usually cant afford spending that much time on a problem (we then usually cry that the software is not good enough ;-))
When we have a challenge, we usually need a soluion for it yesterday. Then I am very happy that there are people that provide us with new plugins, techniques and solutions for problems.
So give these people a chance to make some money for what they do, will you?
CU
Elmar

Dugg
07-03-2003, 03:44 AM
There was a post at Renderosity in the last day or so, a fellow asking for help translating files. Someone responded with rage accusing him of being a rank amature and doing work in the market at far below market value and really pissing the whole community off.
The guy responded quite offended. He has been freelancing for over 10 years. I felt bad for this guy turning up on our forum and being attacked. I'm certain others felt the same. It affects everyone.
Interestingly, CIM (I assume the same of which you speak) actually came in and though not very warmly helped the guy, and the visitor appreciated it.

Joviex
07-03-2003, 07:20 AM
Originally posted by wgreenlee1

My gosh free advice is getting the best of him isnt it?
I have seen him deny people answers to questions they had because and I quote "That is material that is on some CDs I just sold so I cant tell you how to go about that method."Not an exact quote but it was the basis of his response.So in otherwords he replied to a thread about a method and then when asked about it he refused to help further implying that you would have to buy his wares to get that info.A 'tease' if you will.


I can see where you are comming from with this, however, forums are not the ends to a means. Forums are more the exchange of infomation for the promotion of future discovery and provoking thought.

If Larry just spoon fed you the information, where would the leaders of CG possibly spring from down the perverbial road?

Much akin to telling a student "Your work is good, but John's is better" I think Larry first promotes thought. Figure it out yourself, I have given you something to get started.

Now, at the same time, he implies that if you are having futher difficulties you can buy his CD's and "cheat" as it were.

IOW, those with a desire to really take CG by the reins, as most of the professionals on here have done, to wit there was no real industry twenty years ago, use your brain --- or fill my/Larry's/whomever wants money, wallet.

Sounds like good capitalist form to me, and he is not pushy either. He does give a lot of information away for free that he could easily charge money for without saying a word.


And now for something, well, slightly off-topic.....

I also agree that since CIM has disappeared, the forums, the Lightwave forums that is, are different. They feel kinda empty honestly. The majority of posts are kinda boring, at least to me. There seems to be a lack of questioning, or probing, of what we can do as a community to improve the software we are supposed to be discussing.

I will not say it is all because he is gone. Definately not. The typical conversations about improvement around here used to end in a tug of war, or crash in flames of course, but lately everyone almost seems scared to piss off the mod gods.

That is not a good thing. Making the user base of a popular area of this great forum timid in bring up certain topics.... not really sure what or how to solve it though. It really does come down to a lack of respect for what other people have to communicate.

I do sometimes long for the BBS days. When you would log on to a board and actually have to think before posting becuase it cost you sooooo much more money and you might not be able to dial in again if the board was popular. Best to be clear the first go around.

I think that instant gratification, even beyond the fact the internet has tens of millions of people a populos, is one of the major factors.

And to keep pro forma I paraphrase Shakespere:

Alas, a forum, my kingdom for a respectful forum where I can exchange ideas.

LNT
07-03-2003, 12:23 PM
I also agree that since CIM has disappeared, the forums, the Lightwave forums that is, are different. They feel kinda empty honestly. The majority of posts are kinda boring, at least to me. There seems to be a lack of questioning, or probing, of what we can do as a community to improve the software we are supposed to be discussing.I will not say it is all because he is gone. Definately not.

you're right,that's definitely not because he's gone

it's because he and similar characters have been spreading negativity aorund this and newteks home forum with their coinstant whining and attacks on newtek and lightwave

so the real contributing members had abandoned this forum long before CIM got banned,only everyone here was too busy flaming each other to notice their absence http://www.aoikenso.net/ap/cg/biggrin.gif

suggesting how the software can be improved is totally different from annoying everyone with paraoid predictions of lw's doom

I know this and similar kind of things have bothered many people that used to hang around here (me included) for quite awhile now and I know of at least one place where they have regrouped,but it is a members only board

faulknermano
07-03-2003, 12:34 PM
There seems to be a lack of questioning, or probing, of what we can do as a community to improve the software we are supposed to be discussing.

i do not think CIM was the only one doing the probing. CIM got banned for not for "suggesting new features while bashing the program way". he got banned because he was overly tactless, and consistently so.

the only difference between CIM and the other people who criticize the programs is his ability to be even less tactful than any one else (or i may be wrong).

Jonathan
07-04-2003, 01:26 PM
There was a post at Renderosity in the last day or so, a fellow asking for help translating files. Someone responded with rage accusing him of being a rank amature and doing work in the market at far below market value and really pissing the whole community off.
The guy responded quite offended. He has been freelancing for over 10 years. I felt bad for this guy turning up on our forum and being attacked. I'm certain others felt the same. It affects everyone.


Now this is what I am talking about, mis-information and half truths.

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