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rune
04-30-2002, 09:41 PM
Hi, this is my first post here... :)

My name is Rune and I've been working with 3d graphics for four years as a hobby. My modeling and character animation skills are not very good. Instead I like to work on developing various animation techniques and effects.

One of my current projects is to create a walking system which can be used to make a character walk along a given path. It currently has support for changes in speed with automatically adjusted step length and for walking on uneven ground, and I also plan to make support for automatic blend between various walk cycles, such as a blend from walking to running when the speed increases.

You can see an animation created with this system here:

http://runevision.com/3d/anims/#42

It's a spider crawling over an uneven surface. All comments are much appreciated, especially constructive ones.

More animations here:

http://runevision.com/3d/anims/

I should mention that I use a free 3d package called POV-Ray, which is entirely script-based with no graphical user-interface. It also has no support for bones or any kind of character animation at all, so these things I code myself.

Other 3d packages probably already have support for a walking system like the one I'm developing, but probably implemented in some very different ways. I like to make my own systems though, for the challenge of it, and because it's free.

I don't know if this post is somehow off-topic for this board or on the edge of what is normally being discussed here. If so, please let me know.

Rune

Chong
04-30-2002, 09:49 PM
I think it's pretty cool. I've never used a walking system so this may be a dumb question. Was the Actual Walking animation of this spider generated by the "walking system?" Or Did u Animate a spider walking and then run it through your system so it would walk along the surface?

tpe
04-30-2002, 10:14 PM
That is really impressive, especially the way it changes for the terrain. Just for the purposes of showing off the work it would have been nice to see some more speed and direction changes.

tpe

rune
05-01-2002, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by Chong
I think it's pretty cool. I've never used a walking system so this may be a dumb question. Was the Actual Walking animation of this spider generated by the "walking system?" Or Did u Animate a spider walking and then run it through your system so it would walk along the surface?

Thanks for the comments Chong! :)

The term "walking system" is just something I chose to call it. I don't have any experience with other 3d packages and their features.

The walking-path (a spline function), the surface, and some data defining the walk cycle is passed on to the walking system. The walking system then generates data about where each step should be, when it should happen and how it should be aligned etc. and from that it calculates the position of each foot and the body for the current frame. Using some simple inverse kinematics etc. the character is then automatically animated based on that data.

Rune

rune
05-01-2002, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by tpe
That is really impressive, especially the way it changes for the terrain. Just for the purposes of showing off the work it would have been nice to see some more speed and direction changes.

tpe

Thanks tpe! :)

On the page I linked to is another animation made with the walking system where it is an alien character walking. Later I will also make some more animations with the system which will better show what it can do.

For the spider I think it could maybe be cool to make it crawl over rocks bigger than itself and from the ground up on a wall... I also plan to implement support for characters walking up and down stairs.

Rune

lildragon
05-01-2002, 12:46 AM
rune I 'm not worthy man :bowdown: not only do you STILL use Pov-Ray with all the advancements in 3D apps out there, but you manage to simulate the walk of probably one of the hardest things to animate, a SPIDER!!! ... I'm in awe at your dedication to not only the app but also convinicely animated a spider on terrain :bowdown:

cheers :beer:

rune
05-01-2002, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by lildragon
rune I 'm not worthy man :bowdown: not only do you STILL use Pov-Ray with all the advancements in 3D apps out there, but you manage to simulate the walk of probably one of the hardest things to animate, a SPIDER!!! ... I'm in awe at your dedication to not only the app but also convinicely animated a spider on terrain :bowdown:

cheers :beer:

Hey, thanks Tito! So POV-Ray is not completely unknown here... ;) POV-Ray has advanced too with things like radiosity, photon mapping and isosurfaces, but there's still no build in animation features... But for people interested in both 3d graphics, programming, and possibly math too, POV-Ray is the perfect way to combine those interests...

Rune

henry
05-01-2002, 03:30 AM
simply put, you rock! :airguitar :airguitar :airguitar



bye from henry :wavey:

rune
05-01-2002, 03:49 AM
Originally posted by henry
simply put, you rock! :airguitar :airguitar :airguitar

bye from henry :wavey:

Hehe, thank you Henry! :wavey:

Rune

JacquesD
05-01-2002, 04:22 AM
Wow, very interesting system, have you ever considered implementing this for another 3D package??, LightWave for example :thumbsup: , that would be really great, besides I don't know any other 3D soft that does that(except in house tool).

Keep on the great work.

AnimaLMotheR
05-01-2002, 06:06 AM
Nightmares!!! :eek: :eek: :cry:

Bra jobba mann. :)

visionmaster
05-01-2002, 06:39 AM
incredible job !

if you need betatester.........please call me...

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :surprised

TheHobbit
05-01-2002, 07:51 AM
Pov Ray is pretty cool. I tried it once and it just wasn't my thing at the time(nothing was though), maybe in the future I'll try it for fun. Your extremely talented to do everything you've already done though and its inpirational to just see your work. I love the test you did with the streaming water particles the most! :surprised My favorite!

xynaria
05-01-2002, 07:57 AM
Very simple ...very well done.... very impressive..Great! :)


(Goes off to explore web site)



Whoo! great site too.. those ripples work really well as do all of it,
Falls over in admiration. :applause: :applause:

urgaffel
05-01-2002, 08:08 AM
I'm very impressed. I think Lildragon said it best, so I'll just add:

:bowdown:
:xtreme:

LyonHaert
05-01-2002, 11:58 AM
oh my dear lord! i actually watched the animation before really reading your post. i thought at first, 'yeah, that spider is animated really nicely'. i read you made a walk system to do it automatically by following a spline and thought 'wow, that's pretty damn cool.' then i get to the part about doing it in Pov-ray and my jaw hit the floor.

i pretty much started out in Pov-ray as independent study for a highschool programming course, so i know somewhat how it works, and that just blows my mind. now when i watch them i have to keep smacking myself in the head to remind myself it's real.

*starts muttering gibberish from this point on*

:buttrock: :bounce: :xtreme: :bowdown: :xtreme: :bounce: :buttrock:

rune
05-01-2002, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by The Ripper
Wow, very interesting system, have you ever considered implementing this for another 3D package??, LightWave for example :thumbsup: , that would be really great, besides I don't know any other 3D soft that does that(except in house tool).

Wow, so maybe my system is actually a little unique - Woohoo! :D

I'm afraid I can't implement it in other 3d packages though, because:
- I don't yet know any real programming languages, only POV-script.
- I don't have any experience at all with other 3d packages than POV-Ray, and POV-Ray is completely different from commercial 3d packages like LightWave. For example, a graphical user-interface for 3d is something I've never used.
- Other 3d packages are not free like POV-Ray is.

I also find it rather amusing that those big 3d packages with entire teams of programmers haven't implemented a feature like the one I'm working on here, and I'm just a college student with 3d as a hobby... :p

Rune

rune
05-01-2002, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by visionmaster
if you need betatester.........please call me...
:)

It'll take a long time before the system is finished, but I'll keep that in mind. It will only be of use to you if you're a POV-Ray user though...

Rune

rune
05-01-2002, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by TheHobbit
Pov Ray is pretty cool. I tried it once and it just wasn't my thing at the time(nothing was though), maybe in the future I'll try it for fun. Your extremely talented to do everything you've already done though and its inpirational to just see your work. I love the test you did with the streaming water particles the most! :surprised My favorite!
Thanks! :) The particle system is my other major project currently.

Let me know if you choose to give POV-Ray a try again. You may find that it has improved quite a bit in the new version 3.5 (which is still in the beta stage).

Rune

rune
05-01-2002, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by LyonHaert
oh my dear lord! i actually watched the animation before really reading your post. i thought at first, 'yeah, that spider is animated really nicely'. i read you made a walk system to do it automatically by following a spline and thought 'wow, that's pretty damn cool.' then i get to the part about doing it in Pov-ray and my jaw hit the floor.

i pretty much started out in Pov-ray as independent study for a highschool programming course, so i know somewhat how it works, and that just blows my mind. now when i watch them i have to keep smacking myself in the head to remind myself it's real.
LyonHaert, don't smack yourself in the head too hard, ok? ;)

If you think the anim is particular impressive because it's made with POV-Ray, that's cool, but of course my goal is to make animations that look impressive by their own merits. :hmm:

Thanks for the feedback!

Rune

epatnor
05-01-2002, 08:28 PM
The spider walk is impressive overall. Great work! :thumbsup:

Can you set the timing and speed of the walk independently for different parts of the "walk path"? I mean, can you tell it to speed up, slow down, suddenly stop, and the continue crawling - key framed? If you could combine that with your script, then... awesome automated walking!

If youre answer is yes, then - :bowdown: indeed

Hey all: would'nt that be really challenging to other high $$$ animation tools? Where else can you draw a rough spline along a surface, assign it to a rigged creature, tweak some keyframes, and then press the "Calculate precise and totally realistic walk" button?

Aaaaargh!!! :D

UrbanFuturistic
05-01-2002, 09:25 PM
The scariest part of all this is... Rune's only 19 in nine days! He's almost four years younger than me! Actually, that and I'm pretty sure I used to have his webpage bookmarked.

I think I may have seen a similar walking system in reviews of Poser but since I've never actually used the software I honestly couldn't say if it's as good.

Rune: get yourself on a good software engineering type course (preferably one more geared towards graphics) and at the same time learn Renderman Interface Language. A good start would be with BMRT (http://www.exluna.com/products/bmrt/index.html) and get The Renderman Companion and Advanced RenderMan books.

Not that I'm dissing POV-Ray, but renderman is the film industry standard. :D
regards, Paulhttp://homepage.ntlworld.com/odubtaig/smilies/coffee.gif

henry
05-01-2002, 09:50 PM
you got your self some fans there, eh rune ??? :) :)

jk!

bye from henry :wavey:

rune
05-01-2002, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by epatnor
Can you set the timing and speed of the walk independently for different parts of the "walk path"? I mean, can you tell it to speed up, slow down, suddenly stop, and the continue crawling - key framed?
Thanks for your comments! :)

The timing and speed can be fully controlled by the path function used (e.g. the spline function). The spline function is an interpolation of a set of given points, and each point is also given a time value so that you can control exactly when the spline goes through each point. That way you can control speed and timing. I don't know if that is roughly the same as you mean when you refer to "key frames".

Anyway, on my website you can see one more animation made using the walking system. In that animation an alien biped character walks, then stops, then starts walking again and then turns around 180 degrees.

As for commercial 3d programs implementing the same functionality - yep, I don't know why they haven't already, hehe...

Rune

rune
05-02-2002, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by odubtaig
Rune: get yourself on a good software engineering type course (preferably one more geared towards graphics) and at the same time learn Renderman Interface Language. A good start would be with BMRT (http://www.exluna.com/products/bmrt/index.html) and get The Renderman Companion and Advanced RenderMan books.
Well, this summer I'll start at university studying computer science and multimedia. If I'm lucky I'll be able to turn my education in the direction of the kind of graphics that I like to work with. :shrug:

Thanks for the Renderman tips. I'll have a look at that (sooner or later).

And yes, I'm only almost 19. I started with 3d graphics when I was 15. My website is about four years old by the way...

Rune

rune
05-02-2002, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by henry
[B]you got your self some fans there, eh rune ??? :) :)

jk!

I'm really overwhelmed by the warm welcome I've gotten here! Thanks for all the comments everybody! :)

Rune

LyonHaert
05-02-2002, 01:47 AM
i didn't mean to infer that it was impressive because you did it in pov-ray. i was quite impressed when i had just watched the animation alone, before finding out what you used. further finding out it you coded a multi-use walk system also impressed me because...well, i just like abstraction and modulization. the reason it blew my mind that you did it all in pov-ray is i just never thought such complex animation was possible in it. it was sorta like seeing someone make a car fly.

on it's own, the animation is impressive. however, knowledge of what goes into something is always important, imo. some guy could use lightwave and manually animate the spider with ik goals and expressions, for example. the animation could turn out to look exactly like yours. but once you find out how it was done, the other guy will get some praise for being able to tediously animate a spider in one of the big 4, but you'd get much more praise for creating a system to automatically handle it, and in a script-based free 3d app, no less. it's sortof about how much forethought and skill goes into it.

my hat goes off to you, rune. :thumbsup:

rune
05-02-2002, 02:57 AM
Originally posted by LyonHaert
i didn't mean to infer that it was impressive because you did it in pov-ray. i was quite impressed when i had just watched the animation alone, before finding out what you used. further finding out it you coded a multi-use walk system also impressed me because...well, i just like abstraction and modulization.

Ok, I understand... :) Thanks LyonHaert!

Rune

cyroz2000
05-02-2002, 03:30 AM
// POV-Ray 3.0 Scene Description File ;)
// "Wonderfull Spider Rune"



#declare MyText =Wow man, that's an impressive animation!
I used POV during 2 years, and the only animation I made were some camera
translations and objects rotations using the clock system I can remember.
I always thought that it was a great soft, but I didn't manage to make such great
scripts-pics-anim.
I saw your web page, and its really amazing, I like very much the Dripstone Cave...



Great work man!!!

dlindwall
05-02-2002, 07:15 AM
that's some of the best animation I've ever seen. and the spider model looks great.

Darren

rune
05-02-2002, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by cyroz2000
#declare MyText =Wow man, that's an impressive animation! I used POV during 2 years, and the only animation I made were some camera translations and objects rotations using the clock system I can remember. I always thought that it was a great soft, but I didn't manage to make such great scripts-pics-anim.

I saw your web page, and its really amazing, I like very much the Dripstone Cave...

Great work man!!!

Thank you! :) It's been a while since I've made any new images for my gallery, since I've been more interested in animations lately.

The animation here is only possible to do with POV-Ray 3.5 because it has a trace() function which shoots a ray at a surface and returns the intersection point. I use that to find out where the feet should step on the ground... Generally POV-Ray 3.5 has way more features than POV-Ray 3.1, and that makes some new things possible. I'm still using the clock system though... ;)

Rune

rune
05-02-2002, 02:30 PM
As I said in the beginning of this thread, modeling isn't one of my strengths... :hmm:

Here is a close up of the spider model that really show how crude and simple the model is. Strangely, it looks ok at the resolution that the animation has...

Rune

rune
05-02-2002, 02:38 PM
Here's an image of the steps that the walking system has calculated. One color per leg...

Rune

Perambulator
10-03-2003, 04:33 PM
Hiya.

This is very impressive.

I am also currently researching on developing a similar system for Lightwave with variable terrain handling.

As for commercial packages, I am afraid there are ones that do this.

Massive (used in Lord of the Rings) can handle variable terrain.

Ai implant for Max and Maya do it also.

Crowd (Character studio) plugin for 3ds max also.

Behaviour for Softimage also!

I would be interested in discussing the mathematics of this with you though. Perhaps you could send me a private mail, and we can chat!

I am a professional software developer and program in C,C++, Java and would be able to offer assistance for you beyond pov-ray script!

Excellent work anyway!

Cheers

Richard

aazimkhan
10-03-2003, 07:17 PM
OH MY GOD,

I think it would take me longer, if I animate it by verwing my character, the bones etc...

and did that by CODING!!!....I am finding it hard to believe...but i saw the movie...and its AMAZING, not even walking on a flat srufce...BUT on a terrain!!....everything is right...

unbelieveable.....


I want to know, suppose if we add more objects or change the terrain, the walk system actuall re-calcs and works!?...if there is another object...will it actuall calc and go over it etc??

rune
10-04-2003, 03:55 AM
Originally posted by aazimkhan
OH MY GOD,

I think it would take me longer, if I animate it by verwing my character, the bones etc...
Hehe, just wait till the day I make an animation with 50 spiders at once instead of just one... Then you'll see the real advantage. ;)

I want to know, suppose if we add more objects or change the terrain, the walk system actuall re-calcs and works!?...if there is another object...will it actuall calc and go over it etc??
Yes, you tell the macro which objects to test against, and it then automatically tests against those objects. Footsteps are not manually placed, this is also an automatic process.

Rune

ahven
01-17-2004, 10:15 AM
Hi!

I've used also Povray but later moved into 3dstudio. I am not really a programmer and found povray quite difficult. I have to admit that your spider animation is very advanced when it's made with pov :buttrock:

here's some poor 3d I have managed to make with povray:

http://www.digitalbeatmusic.com/images/art6big.jpg

JA-forreal
01-17-2004, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by rune
Wow, so maybe my system is actually a little unique - Woohoo! :D

I'm afraid I can't implement it in other 3d packages though, because:
- I don't yet know any real programming languages, only POV-script.
- I don't have any experience at all with other 3d packages than POV-Ray, and POV-Ray is completely different from commercial 3d packages like LightWave. For example, a graphical user-interface for 3d is something I've never used.
- Other 3d packages are not free like POV-Ray is.

I also find it rather amusing that those big 3d packages with entire teams of programmers haven't implemented a feature like the one I'm working on here, and I'm just a college student with 3d as a hobby... :p

Rune

Rune, your POV 3d animations are thoroughly impressive. I have only rendered in POV via Blender using a wonderful Python script that was coded by a creative Blender coder. I am inspired by the work of cg programmers just as I am by cg artist. I am a Blender artist/Open source member. The Blender software concept brings both the cg artist and the coders together. Have you ever used the Python coding language? It offers endless opportunities to coders and 3d artist alike. When I saw your work I could see many possibilities for use in a broader range of animation applications. Your coded animation concepts are not restricted by the limitations of a software interface.
Way to go Rune. Good stuff!

I also find it rather amusing that those big 3d packages with entire teams of programmers haven't implemented a feature like the one I'm working on here, and I'm just a college student with 3d as a hobby... :p

That is the main reason why I chose Blender as my main 3d application. I love working with cg coders and enjoy the partnership with them as fellow software users. At first I was puzzled at their zealous Blender coding efforts. I didn't see what was behind their motives to code day and night. As I got more involved with their projects I could see how enjoyable it is to have an idea and work to set idea into motion with computer code. I could see how they responded to 3d artist who used their code in the 3d software. Most of the coders that I discuss software features with are students or hobbyist. They have even called one amazing test software package build the "Developers Playground." In the "Developers Playground.", anything that the coders get up and working goes. I like using this test 3d application build because you never know what these talented coders will come up with next. The experience is fun and productive for them as it is for 3d artist like me.

I just started learning 3d character animation and I am getting great tips from fellow coders who tell me how I can make my animations work better and be more productive by applying some simple lines of code to my work. I'm kind of like Luke and they are like Obi wan saying, "use the code force man, the force of the python scripts", hehe. When I look at your work I can see that what they are saying is correct.

Have fun!

georgeblunt
01-18-2004, 12:16 AM
heyho!

truly impressive. :applause:
i am also a Blender user like JA-forreal.
it would be awesome if you could have a look at our nice community of artists and coders working together.

i would post some links, but i don't know how the admins on this board think about posting links to other forums. this is my second post here and i don't wanna make enemies during the first days.. *g*

keep it up!

.george|blunt

Leo73
01-18-2004, 04:27 AM
Nice job! The animation is extremely smooth and calculated. I noticed that his legs pass through each other during the last two seconds of the clip. I'm sure it's old news to you, but I was wondering if there is a way to keep them from doing this.

Dancing Monkey
01-18-2004, 05:20 AM
THAT IS CRAZY! I love you man! So realistic... almost as good as Shelob!

sawoozer
01-18-2004, 11:27 AM
:thumbsup: It looks just like a real one~

bhushu
01-21-2004, 10:40 AM
you THE MAN!!!

nICE WORK..

bhush

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