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danlefeb
12-04-2008, 06:40 PM
I didn't see this posted yet - I apologize if I missed it...


Adobe on Wednesday announced plans to cut approximately 600 full-time jobs in response to less-than-anticipated earnings for its fiscal fourth quarter of 2008.

In its preliminary financial results, Adobe said demand for its Creative Suite 4 products was weaker than expected, and suggested the economy was a factor in the company's revenue shortfall. Adobe's CS4 products--featuring an overhaul of most of its tools for creative professionals--began shipping in October.


http://www.digitalartsonline.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=11817
http://www.digitaltutors.com/chit_chat/showthread.php?t=15527

francomanko
12-04-2008, 07:16 PM
Someone get on to Adobe and ask why they don't have a contingency plan for this sort of thing. I'm guessing they should have been saving a little for a rainy day during all those 'profit' years, just for occasions like this.

I know I'm sounding a tad naive but I really don't understand why the workforce who must play a large part in making these company's profits are one of the first to suffer?

It's sad, bad business and it's fundamentally wrong.

...suggested the economy was a factor in the company's revenue shortfall

seems to me its more to do with a lack of foresight on their behalf.

DimeS
12-05-2008, 12:02 AM
They have a contingency plan: if revenue drops, cut costs. It's a pretty standard way to stay in business.

Someone get on to Adobe and ask why they don't have a contingency plan for this sort of thing. I'm guessing they should have been saving a little for a rainy day during all those 'profit' years, just for occasions like this.

I know I'm sounding a tad naive but I really don't understand why the workforce who must play a large part in making these company's profits are one of the first to suffer?

It's sad, bad business and it's fundamentally wrong.



seems to me its more to do with a lack of foresight on their behalf.

PixelTricks
12-05-2008, 12:27 AM
Sorry for the people that will lose work, but I'm not surprised .
My interest in adobe products has been dropping for a few years now, with really my only interest being photoshop. CS4 doesn't interest me either. It is like they tried to turn photoshop into a swiss army knife for everything 2d and 3d. I think it has lost its focus .

The other thing about adobe products I don't like is how they want to install all those little applications, I don't want bridge, device central, extension managers, etc. I just want to install a application that does editing and doesn't require other applications to run it.

Autodesk is starting to put me off the same way. Can we just purchase the program we are using and not all the extra applications we don't want ?

francomanko
12-05-2008, 02:16 AM
They have a contingency plan: if revenue drops, cut costs. It's a pretty standard way to stay in business.

Doesn't really fit with my idea of contingency when the cuts involve people, so maybe the standard business model needs to change.

robcat2075
12-05-2008, 02:45 AM
Doesn't really fit with my idea of contingency when the cuts involve people, so maybe the standard business model needs to change.

What would a different business model be?

They're a software company. They only change I can think of that would be in their core competency would be to make different software programs. But what would those be?

They pretty much make an app for everything in 2D and 3D is already a crowded, contracting market.

New apps would would take a bigger investment than adding features to existing apps, so that seems unlikely now

cheddars
12-05-2008, 02:51 AM
Sorry for the people that will lose work, but I'm not surprised .
My interest in adobe products has been dropping for a few years now, with really my only interest being photoshop. CS4 doesn't interest me either. It is like they tried to turn photoshop into a swiss army knife for everything 2d and 3d. I think it has lost its focus .


That's a pretty silly comment, although not unexpected in this sort of situation. Which is more likely, that the layoffs are a response to the current economic conditions, or because large numbers of users have suddenly decided they don't like the way Photoshop development is going?

francomanko
12-05-2008, 03:13 AM
What would a different business model be?



Well I'm no expert obviously but bearing in mind they said the current economic climate was a factor in the company's revenue shortfall, then maybe during times of profit they should, for want of a better phrase, be saving for a rainy day.

All to often it seems that staff are treated more like numbers than people in business models. There are plenty of examples of this.

Kabab
12-05-2008, 05:42 AM
Unfortunately that is how capitalism works...

If you are concerned for people losing their jobs from adobe you could go out and buy more adobe products or pay a higher price.

ThomasMahler
12-05-2008, 07:42 AM
I'd rather say people are waiting for Adobe to fix CS4. It's doggone slow on every machine I've seen it running on. Having to buy new hardware just so Photoshop (a 2d application) can run fast enough again especially in the current crisis is ridiculous.

refract
12-05-2008, 08:13 AM
Future Forcast Earnings. Stock brokers bank on this. Or,.. Fake future forcast earnings,... based upon... Interest rates.
And those interest rates are based upon,. Them.

So they can change the value of theire stocks when they so please.

cheebamonkey
12-05-2008, 11:59 AM
I'd rather say people are waiting for Adobe to fix CS4. It's doggone slow on every machine I've seen it running on. Having to buy new hardware just so Photoshop (a 2d application) can run fast enough again especially in the current crisis is ridiculous.

works pretty well on a quadcore system running Vista64. Adobe has done a great job continuing to add more features and allowing their apps to talk to each other. I love the links between say Flash and Premiere and Premiere and AFX. I'm itching to try out RED w/it but have been too busy. Photoshop works fine. I've only opened Illustrator CS4 a couple times so I can't comment on the new features or its speed.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see other tech companies, especially Apple, cut jobs. When business is slow, people gotta go! Most companies can't afford to keep people on overhead if the work isn't there or the revenue isn't coming in. It's business.. plain and simple.

CHRiTTeR
12-05-2008, 12:41 PM
The typical problem with CS4 is they changed to much and didnt really add 'that' much.

And on the way doing that they managed to make it run frustatingly slow while it has always been a verry efficient application in the past.

Revalis
12-05-2008, 01:07 PM
Having been at Adobe MAX this year, I can certainly say that it didn't appear that they were having any financial woes. =P They went all out in San Fran.

mushroomgod
12-05-2008, 01:10 PM
The typical problem with CS4 is they changed to much and didnt really add 'that' much.

Agree, atleast for my style of working CS4 add nothng thats worth the overpriced upgrade cost. Also, adobes customer service is apparantly really bad now and it seems like every year they come out (with a not to great) upgrade - its to frequent, alot of people cant or dont want too keep up.

Ill wait and see what CS5 is like before I think about upgrading.

I really hope that Adobe gets some good competition soon too.

Pyke
12-05-2008, 01:49 PM
Well I'm no expert obviously but bearing in mind they said the current economic climate was a factor in the company's revenue shortfall, then maybe during times of profit they should, for want of a better phrase, be saving for a rainy day.

All to often it seems that staff are treated more like numbers than people in business models. There are plenty of examples of this.

Companys dont make a profit to carry them through the times when they dont make profit. The money they make is used to expand the company. Of course they have a contingency fund, as any good business has, and Im sure they have been using it.

Laying off people is a very costly affair, and isn't really a decision thats taken lightly. Its not like men in big suits say "Lets just fire 600 people, and go out for a round of golf". This is usually the very last resort, as it ends up costing a hell of a lot of money. All that time and effort in training, and providing for 600 people is basically gone to waste. Make no mistake, this will hurt Adobe in the long run, and they know it. But unfortunately its a case of 600 jobs now, or 2000 a little later.

PixelTricks
12-05-2008, 02:18 PM
That's a pretty silly comment, although not unexpected in this sort of situation. Which is more likely, that the layoffs are a response to the current economic conditions, or because large numbers of users have suddenly decided they don't like the way Photoshop development is going?

Photoshop purchases have been going down since CS2. More sales = more revenue = less layoffs . All the current economy is doing now is showing up companies with poor business models. Yes many companies are hurting. But if you look closely at the ones doing layoffs you will find a business that had many problems internally.

DangerousCliff
12-05-2008, 02:26 PM
Just my anecdotal experience: I simply didn't upgrade because they made it rather difficult to find an upgrade path. Told me on the phone that the only upgrade path open to me was to take my CS2 suite to the CS4 master suite for $18k- or I could just buy a fresh Production Premium for $16k and let the CS2 license die. They lost the $600 advertised upgrade cost I had expected to spend from reading the Adobe Store info.

PixelTricks
12-05-2008, 03:01 PM
Just my anecdotal experience: I simply didn't upgrade because they made it rather difficult to find an upgrade path. Told me on the phone that the only upgrade path open to me was to take my CS2 suite to the CS4 master suite for $18k- or I could just buy a fresh Production Premium for $16k and let the CS2 license die. They lost the $600 advertised upgrade cost I had expected to spend from reading the Adobe Store info.

I think that has become one of the problems with adobe software. It has always been priced high and now is even more so. It would be better for them to lower the purchase price and have more sales. $18K for CS4 master suite is insane. That is more money than I have tied up in XSI, 3dsMax & Maya combined.

tlggungor
12-05-2008, 03:29 PM
I think that has become one of the problems with adobe software. It has always been priced high and now is even more so. It would be better for them to lower the purchase price and have more sales. $18K for CS4 master suite is insane. That is more money than I have tied up in XSI, 3dsMax & Maya combined.

I agree....

jipe
12-05-2008, 03:51 PM
A new copy of CS4 Master Suite is $2499 in their U.S. store... how did you manage to get a quote for $18k? Or is that for multiple licenses?

danlefeb
12-05-2008, 03:52 PM
Told me on the phone that the only upgrade path open to me was to take my CS2 suite to the CS4 master suite for $18k- or I could just buy a fresh Production Premium for $16k and let the CS2 license die.

$18K? Master Collection is $2,500 (https://store1.adobe.com/cfusion/store/html/index.cfm?event=displayProduct&categoryOID=1883564&store=OLS-US&distributionmethodOID=103) US for a full license which I think is incredibly cheap for all the software it includes.

Potemkyn
12-05-2008, 04:08 PM
Unfortunately that is how capitalism works...


Perhaps we should go back to an older, more stable system. Especially when you consider how in the early years of capitalism (15th Century), many people were beginning to be forced off of The Commons and out of their villages. These were people who had lived there for a more than a thousand years successfully. And they did it without a socialist government or government help. Makes you wonder.

As for me, I've already asked the two groups of folks I work with to get a few copies of CS4 Web Premium for their teams to help with their development.

Mike

DangerousCliff
12-05-2008, 04:22 PM
$18K? Master Collection is $2,500 (https://store1.adobe.com/cfusion/store/html/index.cfm?event=displayProduct&categoryOID=1883564&store=OLS-US&distributionmethodOID=103) US for a full license which I think is incredibly cheap for all the software it includes.

Sorry! had a twitter moment!- went back tot shorten my post from $1800 and just poped in a 'k' without double checking..

*needs more coffee...*

Crotalis
12-05-2008, 05:04 PM
Honestly, I'm sure the current economic downturn is hurting Adobe more than anything else, but I think what will be important in the future is whether or not bussiness picks up again towards the end of the 2009 year.

Our shop actually decided not to upgrade to CS4, and to actually only keep CS3 on two machines (1 MAC and 1 PC) and downgrade everything else to CS2. This was based soley on performance issues in CS3. We use Illustrator more than PS, and found that a lot of the functionality from CS2 didn't seem to be carried over.

Also, you shouldn't need a quad core to run Photoshop!

Kai01W
12-05-2008, 06:17 PM
$18K? Master Collection is $2,500 (https://store1.adobe.com/cfusion/store/html/index.cfm?event=displayProduct&categoryOID=1883564&store=OLS-US&distributionmethodOID=103) US for a full license which I think is incredibly cheap for all the software it includes.
As long as Adobe feels they need to shamelessly rip off european customers I try to avoid their products.
The English(!) Master Collection is 3330,81 in the german online store (incl. Tax). Which makes it ~4200 $. The German version would even be 200 more.
A bad joke.


-k

DimeS
12-05-2008, 08:55 PM
Perhaps we should go back to an older, more stable system. Especially when you consider how in the early years of capitalism (15th Century), many people were beginning to be forced off of The Commons and out of their villages. These were people who had lived there for a more than a thousand years successfully. And they did it without a socialist government or government help. Makes you wonder.

As for me, I've already asked the two groups of folks I work with to get a few copies of CS4 Web Premium for their teams to help with their development.

Mike

What?! You do know that the period between 500 and 1500 is known as The Dark Ages, right? Not sure I'd call that successful. Jeez, I know it's a shame when people lose there jobs, but I didn't think it would make people nostalgic for the Middle Ages.

kees
12-05-2008, 09:57 PM
I'd expect adobe to focus more on other areas of business then the CS package in the future (if not already). it will continue to receive some development of course, but I think for adobe other areas, such as game development with flash etc, are areas that have more potential for new sales.

Kind of like Autodesk is taking a snails pace with Max/Maya and starting to invest more into other areas, such as middle ware for games.

They kind of have to, since they have been selling us the same software (minus a few upgrades) for a few years now and customers are starting to notice :)

refract
12-05-2008, 11:14 PM
I'd really like Adobe to add a few more hidden Adobe installers that are not 250mg downloads but 100gig so we all run out of space.

soulburn3d
12-05-2008, 11:40 PM
Laying off people is a very costly affair, and isn't really a decision thats taken lightly. Its not like men in big suits say "Lets just fire 600 people, and go out for a round of golf".

After seeing the behavior of the top execs of the 3 american car companies, I'd say yes, that's exactly the sort of thing men in big suits do :)

- Neil

soulburn3d
12-05-2008, 11:45 PM
It's a pretty simple equation. All products as they get older start changing less and less in each new version. In good economic times, people may still be willing to upgrade "just in case", even if they think they may not need the new version of the software. But in bad times when money is tight, more people will upgrade less, and so you get less money as a software company. Since you can't really affect the overall economy, the one thing the software company can do is work on giving the public a real reason to upgrade, which means better features that people really want and need.

If newer versions of their software had more compelling features, people would still upgrade. I sure hope they choose this path in the future.

- Neil

DuttyFoot
12-06-2008, 12:40 AM
wow sad to hear those folks are losing their jobs, sorry for them and the other 533,000 americans who lost their jobs this month. if they want to stimulate the economy they need to create jobs, that would put a jolt in the economy, and then people would be willing to shell out some cash for software and the likes.

on another note i just bought cs3 in august and have no plans to upgrade to cs4 anytime soon. dont really see that much that makes me want to.

anobrin
12-06-2008, 01:06 AM
Me I am a 3D artist who owns uses maxon cinema4d studio with body paint
im still running CS1 and that only to tweak an image i renders from my 3D program
for compositing i use Autodesk Combustion 2008.
I dont personally need any new photoshop versions right now

theanswer07
12-06-2008, 01:33 AM
It's a shame that average people suffer as a result of idiotic decisions made by the big corporations (banks), but as aforementioned, that is buisness and its cruel as hell.

As for Adobe's developers I would like them to return to Photoshop's roots and ask themselves what Photoshop was made to do, to edit bitmap graphics, instead of adding features that help Photoshop carry 3D imageries better, why not make graphic artists lives easier with more intuitive tools and controls, smarter tools, stuff that will help Photoshop excel in what it is meant to excel in.

This is why their products have not sold as well, because they're not doing what they should be doing, they're being developed to accomodate a completely different medium of art, rather than accomodating the art medium that Photoshop was created to help.

I won't be buying another Adobe product until something is developed to make my job a whole lot easier or something that will help me do it better, something that isn't already avaliable in previous products.

JDex
12-06-2008, 02:16 AM
Gah... sorry to see more DCC developers making cuts. Hope it all works out for them.

I've been doing an experiment since spring, and it's gone well. Gimp & Inkscape for everything 2D (still) to see if I really must have PS/Illustrator, or upgrade any of my licenses. There's many things I do miss in the Adobe offerings... but for the value I'm sticking w/ the OSS options.

Sorry I can't help you out Adobe.

theanswer07
12-06-2008, 03:39 AM
Gah... sorry to see more DCC developers making cuts. Hope it all works out for them.

I've been doing an experiment since spring, and it's gone well. Gimp & Inkscape for everything 2D (still) to see if I really must have PS/Illustrator, or upgrade any of my licenses. There's many things I do miss in the Adobe offerings... but for the value I'm sticking w/ the OSS options.

Sorry I can't help you out Adobe.

Sounds interesting, do you find that your workflow or production speed is slower or that your work is produced to maybe a lower quality? Just a question for curiosity..

refract
12-06-2008, 03:53 AM
To "theanswer07".. ur so right. Finally someone that understands.

NicolasJordan
12-06-2008, 03:55 AM
If Adobe is hurting I wonder if Autodesk is hurting? The feeling I get is that Autodesk is pretty solid at the moment.

RockinAkin
12-06-2008, 04:39 AM
If Adobe is hurting I wonder if Autodesk is hurting? The feeling I get is that Autodesk is pretty solid at the moment.
Autodesk is a much more diversified company than Adobe. Their software ranges many industries and tasks - whereas Adobe is much more specific to art & design.

It's a shame to hear about the layoffs though, especially at this time of year. Best of luck to everyone affected by it.

JDex
12-06-2008, 05:15 AM
Sounds interesting, do you find that your workflow or production speed is slower or that your work is produced to maybe a lower quality? Just a question for curiosity..

At first... it was abysmally slow. But like anything, you get faster, adapt to the changes and find workarounds. In doing so most things got up to the same speed/quality. Some things are a little slower, some a little faster.

The gimp workflow hits have mostly been related to layer management and actions. I learned (some) script-fu and was able to get through most of the automation issues. The layer management is a bit stickier. No soloing button, no folders. Solo button I haven't worked out a way around, however for the lack of layer folders, I now build each element in separate files and simply maintain a "visual" file that holds all the latest elements. A bit of a pain at first, but I'm now more granular and less likely to lose work.

The gimp quality hit is all about brushes... they just don't have the power/ease of manipulation of PS. Where brushes have needed to be advanced, it's taken much longer to get the result... thankfully I only use crazy brushes in crazy circumstances.

Inkscape is hands down a faster workflow than Illustrator for me, even though it may not have a bunch of printing features that I don't use. Stability is not 100%, but about as good as illustrator.

ThomasMahler
12-06-2008, 12:44 PM
Funny thing is, most Photoshop alternatives I've seen are browser-based, like this one:

http://lifehacker.com/5102188/phoenix-offers-powerful-image-editing-in-your-browser

Most of them are actually pretty good and fun to use, but of course all of them suffer from the browser-limitations.

It'd be cool to see more powerful image editing applications. There are so many darn interesting papers from university students around and there are still soooo many areas in which Photoshop could improve (so don't tell me that Photoshop is perfect as it is or there's not much that can be changed anymore) - but since Adobe / Photoshop pretty much has the monopoly, the market is more than steady since quite some time now.

Hope we'll see some great open source software in the upcoming future. 2008 already has been a great year for open source software (the best OS releases right now are some of the Open source distros) and I hope we'll see some great stuff in 2009. It'd be neat to see a Photoshop competitor popping up somewhere down the road.

bsm3d
12-06-2008, 01:20 PM
Hi,

First sorry for my bad english writing I guess you can understand me...

Well I'm not surprised anymore with this kind of Jobs cut as so Big company like Adobe, Autodesk,... must have positive balance.

This does not mean they are in the red in terms of finances, they just aim to satisfy shareholders and are victim of their economic exchange becomes a snow ball effect.

Personally I do not update to CS 4 for this reasons :

- CS 4 suite are too heavy in terms of resources
- Licences and installer are a nightmare from CS 3...
- CS4 becomes a bit everything and anything, it makes me think of Nero burning software, it was excellent and became a stupid multimedia bundle for familly.
- Both Adobe will not unequal tariffs between the United States and Europe I will invest more in their products.
- I am well with my CS 3 for the coming years and the Open source keeps getting better!

I think that big companies have to call into questions about how they manage their customers and the money they try to get annually for updates without major features.

I believe that forcing the purchase of subscription is considered (in Europe at least) as the forced sale and it is forbidden!

Large companies if they want to continue and keep their customers who are less dupe must provide tools more focused, more experienced (not release out new versions every year because it has become accustomed to SIGGRAPH) And especially thinking towards services like IBM, Sun, etc. are already doing ...

Last remark, I sometimes have this bad feeling that publishers make us pay a high price to recover the money that users pirates do not relate!

This is of course my own point of view.

SheepFactory
12-06-2008, 04:59 PM
I would have upgraded to Cs4 if it didnt run like crysis on a 486 dx2 66 computer.

Cometsoft
12-06-2008, 10:09 PM
It's funny but there are a lot of people on the Adobe Photoshop Mac Forums that think CS4 is snappier than CS3. I'm very happy with it on a year old 2.4 GHZ Macbook Pro Laptop with an Nvidia card.

CS4 is a wonderful upgrade if your video card and OS are compatible. The rotate canvas, brush sizing shortcuts, and sticky keys are great. The toss the canvas thing is great, but before I tried it didn't see the point.

I think the layoffs are much more of a result of the whole economic downturn than the shortcomings of CS4. About the only people that won't feel the downturn are bankruptcy lawyers, and gun, drug and alcohol dealers.

Kabab
12-07-2008, 01:11 AM
Maybe its because photoshop is one of the least innovated, slowest developing and worst value for money product in the market?

I know this may sound harsh but photoshop has been around 20 years! In 20 years and the bilions of $$$ worth of sales it has generated it has not evolved at the rate it should have, its obvious adobe treat it like a cash cow pumping the least amount of R&D in it just so they can get some upgrades each year..

For a company with the resources of adobe photoshop could be an amazing product.

DuttyFoot
12-07-2008, 03:50 AM
Maybe its because photoshop is one of the least innovated, slowest developing and worst value for money product in the market?

I know this may sound harsh but photoshop has been around 20 years! In 20 years and the bilions of $$$ worth of sales it has generated it has not evolved at the rate it should have, its obvious adobe treat it like a cash cow pumping the least amount of R&D in it just so they can get some upgrades each year..

For a company with the resources of adobe photoshop could be an amazing product.

you might have a point. i used version 7 the other day because i was having some pc trouble and it hasn't really changed all that much. for some reason i was looking at the interface of 7 and it seemed as though there is alot more screen space. heck maybe its just me

TetraLynx
12-07-2008, 07:45 AM
I'm sorry for all those that will be impacted by this. I'm not that impressed with CS4 at all, this seems like a maintenance release just to keep people upgrading. They have been counting on people to upgrade for some new feature year after year and I honestly don't know what else to add. I got the upgrade for free under my license agreement and for all the bells and whistles it touts it really slowed down on my computer. I'm probably going to go back to CS3 for most things except Illustrator, which wouldn't close correctly. I think that was a compatibility issue with Vista. Illustrator in CS4 is closing when it's supposed to so thats a plus. I ask for so little! Haven't used the menu system enough to know if I like it. It's been moved over a hair too far, just enough to piss me off every time I go to adjust something. I'm hoping some product emerges to challenge Adobe's market share enough for them to reevaluate their products and improve them but with Macromedia acquired I don't see that happening any time soon.

Hauzer
12-07-2008, 08:31 AM
Those of you having slowdown problems with CS4, is this occurring only in Vista? The comment made earlier by Cometsoft about how well it runs on an old Macbook Pro was shocking.

I know a lot of you have faster machines than me, so if you can't run it, I won't even bother.

Is there a possibility that Adobe could benefit from having people switch over to a Mac? <tinfoil hat>Could this be intentional?</tinfoil hat>

SheepFactory
12-07-2008, 08:49 AM
@ Hauzer

I am trying to run it on a macbook pro (ati card) and it runs like crap. It is unusable. Even the simplest flat brushes have so much lag you cant draw the simplest thing.

Cs4 is the ONLY app that runs slow on my mac book pro. Every other app I run, runs like a dream.

ThomasMahler
12-07-2008, 09:03 AM
@ Hauzer

I am trying to run it on a macbook pro (ati card) and it runs like crap. It is unusable. Even the simplest flat brushes have so much lag you cant draw the simplest thing.

Cs4 is the ONLY app that runs slow on my mac book pro. Every other app I run, runs like a dream.

I ran it on two core 2 duos, one with a 7900 and 8 gigs of RAM (vista64) and one with a 280gtx and 4 gigs of RAM (xp32) and it was slow as hell on both of them. Painting is a chore, even the default brush on a 1k x 1k canvas is lagging behind. Some people on the Adobe forums say that turning off the new gpu options will make things faster, but it's still very close to unusable.

SheepFactory
12-07-2008, 09:07 AM
I ran it on two core 2 duos, one with a 7900 and 8 gigs of RAM (vista64) and one with a 280gtx and 4 gigs of RAM (xp32) and it was slow as hell on both of them. Painting is a chore, even the default brush on a 1k x 1k canvas is lagging behind. Some people on the Adobe forums say that turning off the new gpu options will make things faster, but it's still very close to unusable.

Yea I tried both ways with the GPU accelaration on and off. Did not make any difference.

Cometsoft
12-07-2008, 09:49 AM
@ Hauzer

I am trying to run it on a macbook pro (ati card) and it runs like crap. It is unusable. Even the simplest flat brushes have so much lag you cant draw the simplest thing.

Cs4 is the ONLY app that runs slow on my mac book pro. Every other app I run, runs like a dream.

SheepFactory,

Are you on OSX 10.5.5? Does your CS4 lag occur with small files too?

If you use Maya on that MacBook Pro, how well does it run? I've heard Maya and ATI don't get along too well.

Cometsoft
12-07-2008, 09:57 AM
Those of you having slowdown problems with CS4, is this occurring only in Vista? The comment made earlier by Cometsoft about how well it runs on an old Macbook Pro was shocking.

I know a lot of you have faster machines than me, so if you can't run it, I won't even bother.

Is there a possibility that Adobe could benefit from having people switch over to a Mac? <tinfoil hat>Could this be intentional?</tinfoil hat>

I don't think Adobe would benefit any way from that. I just think that there are less variables in Mac land so if they can get it to run right on 5 or 6 hardware/software configurations they've got 95% of the base covered.

There are plenty of people that are happy with CS4 in Vista, but also a lot who are not. A lot of the problems get resolved by the usual suspects (scratch disk, video card compatabiltiy (OpenGL vs non-OpenGL), memory, trashed preferences, etc.).

Personally if your video card isn't OpenGL compatible and you're a painter I don't think the upgrade is worth it. For me those are the killer features.

BTW A year old MacBook pro isn't really that old. It's not a whole lot slower than the new ones.

bsm3d
12-07-2008, 10:23 AM
[Sad Mode On]

If your CS 4 is slow as a snail it's because all of you don't buy the latest NVIDIA Quadro CX!

Don't you know NVIDIA push marketing with Adobe hand by handa to sales the new (old renewed) Quadro CX for around 2,000 us$ for getting CS 4 fantastic unleashed performances ?

If you do not have the certified and recommended hardware (go hell with your baby cards like Radeon HD or G280, it's not professional cards!) by the editors is nothing to complain, it's your fault! It false buy subscriptions and hardware for a complete and fast (not even dream). They should find a solution for the real professionals who use brushes 128x128 pixels.

Also with Vista performances they will must found new way to get performances they lose since Photoshop 7 was down.

[Sad Mode Off]

About NVIDIA and ADOBE, they pushed the CUDA marketing with Photoshop and Premiere, so finally it's the dont loved OpenGL who is chosed and used to keep compatibility with MAC, PC, NVIDIA and ATI...Ahahaha

I know I'm sad and sarcastic with such comments and no one take care of, but not all false! Editors can smilles, until all of us buy this craps updates their don't change position and way of take care about customers.

PixelTricks
12-07-2008, 02:26 PM
The other thing that killed CS4 for me is that none of the GPU functions are available in XP x64. Their excuse is that the drivers don't support it ? Funny, XSI, Maya, Mudbox, etc all seem to have no problems.

SheepFactory
12-07-2008, 05:04 PM
SheepFactory,

Are you on OSX 10.5.5? Does your CS4 lag occur with small files too?

If you use Maya on that MacBook Pro, how well does it run? I've heard Maya and ATI don't get along too well.


I am on whatever the latest version is.

Every other software including maya runs flawless on my mac book pro. Adobe cs 4 lags when I create a 500 x 500 empty document and try to draw on it with a brush. I find it hard to believe how adobe QA team (if they have one) tested this on a variety of mac computers and said its good to go. It is not like I am trying to run it on a 8 year old powerbook. Mine is a 2.5 yo mac book pro which is still pretty good spec wise.

bsm3d
12-07-2008, 05:19 PM
You are right with Maya and Mac, as all I tested with Maya was always slowest on Mac than PC... it's seam OS X don't manage OpenGL as Windows or Linux do...

I maked a series of test btw mac and pc about realtime 3D graphics and technologies. per eg. Java3D are really slow on mac compared to PC, PDF 3D from adobe are just unusable when on PC it's ok.

PC and Mac have 2 Gb ram, ATI X1900 XT, same resolutions... as I discussed with programmers it's seam OpenGL intergration into OS X is a bit 'home made from Apple'.

An other eg is C4D with Vue 6 xStream, this is the bad couple for OS X when on PC that's run fine.

But as you said, 500x500 pixels canvas can't be slow at all, even on 8 years machines! Probably you drivers are not ok or Adobe will publish a fix and in this case QA Team is just buttons players...not CG users.

Cometsoft
12-07-2008, 08:52 PM
I am on whatever the latest version is.

Every other software including maya runs flawless on my mac book pro. Adobe cs 4 lags when I create a 500 x 500 empty document and try to draw on it with a brush. I find it hard to believe how adobe QA team (if they have one) tested this on a variety of mac computers and said its good to go. It is not like I am trying to run it on a 8 year old powerbook. Mine is a 2.5 yo mac book pro which is still pretty good spec wise.

Choking on 500x500 is nuts. Something has got to be wrong in your preferences, configuration or installation. I'm sure you know what you're doing, but if that was happening on everyone's computer it would at least be all over the Photoshop Mac forums.

There is a lengthy performance related thread on the Windows forum of pissed-off customers where some of the Adobe engineers are trying to track down the problem.

I really don't know what to say, maybe wait for the next patch and run the trial.

Sorry and good luck.

Samo
12-07-2008, 11:28 PM
then maybe during times of profit they should, for want of a better phrase, be saving for a rainy day

shareholders would not allow that

Windwolf
12-08-2008, 06:22 PM
Guess someone would not be happy... but some, like me would say, yes ! serve them right !

Adobe has been selling crap since what? CS1? Take it as the result of what they did to the MacroMedia products !!

I got the CS4 Production Premium upgrade, but now, I am looking for a CS3 !!! What a waste of money !!

If Adobe is going to fire some people, maybe they should fire those decision makers !! they are just as bad as their products !!

aaraaf
12-08-2008, 08:47 PM
The letting go of people is always horrible, but Adobe needs to get back on track.

I know that the pricing to get into the software isn't bad, but upgrading is rather expensive.

I never even got a personal CS3 license because of the expense of getting Master collection, which is the only option to upgrade both the then Macromedia suite and the Video collection. Upgrading the video suite was usually around $500 and the web suite was around $400, but to do both became a $1300 upgrade... for 5 or 6 features that might possibly one day fit my workflow?

The price is less now, but I just don't really need it. I'll get closer to the end of the year and purchase some tax write offs, but CS4 isn't really that high on my list.

I wish they would use more DirectX acceleration (like Max and Maya) as opposed to OpenGL, and I really wish that some of the interopperability nonsense actually worked well consistently. It feels like a band aid at best.

Cheesestraws
12-08-2008, 09:00 PM
Maya uses OpenGL, as do most other professional 3d applications, adobe cant use DirectX as it doesn't work on Macs which make up a large percentage of their users.

bsm3d
12-08-2008, 09:46 PM
Maya uses OpenGL, as do most other professional 3d applications, adobe cant use DirectX as it doesn't work on Macs which make up a large percentage of their users.

I agree, OpenGL is more professional, portable and robust 3D API for quality products.

DirectX is first created to "give" a 3D API for easilly use graphics cards hardwares and push games dev. with out all the complexity of mastering OpenGL...so after DirectX is at first for gaming, vista is for conssumers (no offense but it's familly os), since directX is only available on Microsoft OS that's a big error from Adobe to use it ! What's append to Mac market ? More coming Linux market ?

Adobe do the right choice with OpenGL, Adobe dev.Team are far than stupids...that's marketing and CEO/shareolders who must be kick out!

KayosIII
12-09-2008, 11:43 AM
The layer management is a bit stickier. No soloing button, no folders. Solo button I haven't worked out a way around, however for the lack of layer folders, I now build each element in separate files and simply maintain a "visual" file that holds all the latest elements. A bit of a pain at first, but I'm now more granular and less likely to lose work.


By soloing do you mean easily viewing one layer at a time. The closest thing I can recommend is shift+clicking on the visible property for the layer (this will hide every layer but the selected layer - the part where it falls down is that when you click again all layers become visible... but this is better than nothing)....

I generally tend to work in Inkscape - mostly for design stuff and use the gimp for specific bitmap retouching. I tend to work with the gimp, Inkscape and a file manager window open. I save bitmaps the open folder and use drag and drop to get them to either inkscape or the gimp... you can also drag and drop layers from the gimp into inkscape which is nice.
Mostly I am doing photography at the moment and the thing that stops me using the gimp mostly at the moment is lack of support for 16bits per channel. I haven't really got the want to coff up for a photoshop licence at the moment so I have been concerntrating on getting it right in the camera

KayosIII
12-09-2008, 11:56 AM
I agree, OpenGL is more professional, portable and robust 3D API for quality products.

DirectX is first created to "give" a 3D API for easilly use graphics cards hardwares and push games dev. with out all the complexity of mastering OpenGL...so after DirectX is at first for gaming, vista is for conssumers (no offense but it's familly os), since directX is only available on Microsoft OS that's a big error from Adobe to use it ! What's append to Mac market ? More coming Linux market ?

Adobe do the right choice with OpenGL, Adobe dev.Team are far than stupids...that's marketing and CEO/shareolders who must be kick out!

Actually DirectX is much closer to the hardware these days and OpenGL has some catching up to do. Well actually Nvidia with extensions has OpenGL on par with the latest DirectX but AMD/ATI and intel are still behind.

Still if you want create a crossplatform product DirectX is really not an option - unless you want to manage more than one API and given the way that Adobe builds their product thath would probably equal a lot of work.

We haven't upgraded at work here because we simply haven't needed to. We have a few photoshop boxes but the rest get by with paint.net or the Gimp - and Krita on a linux box for when Photoshop decides its going to save our 16bit greyscale heightmaps as 8bit without telling anybody (png format).

Potemkyn
12-09-2008, 05:52 PM
What?! You do know that the period between 500 and 1500 is known as The Dark Ages, right? Not sure I'd call that successful. Jeez, I know it's a shame when people lose there jobs, but I didn't think it would make people nostalgic for the Middle Ages.

The Dark ages did not span the entire time of the Middle Ages. The Dark Age began when Rome began to fall. It ended long before the Middle Ages ended, but that depends upon who you read from, the date is typically 1066 as this was the last major Viking/Dane invasion.

Mike

jupiterjazz
12-12-2008, 06:44 PM
When business is slow, people gotta go! Most companies can't afford to keep people on overhead if the work isn't there or the revenue isn't coming in. It's business.. plain and simple.

Independently from the (shaky) validity of your statement,
I think it is a form to respect to shut the f|_|ck up, sometimes.

So, after you've finished your enlightening reading of 'business-for-dummies', and your will to share what you have just learnt, I highly recommend 'savoirfaire-for-dummies'.

Yo.

p

BigJay
12-13-2008, 01:09 PM
I hope those 600 people get snatched up quick by competitors and we see some new competition for adobe.

workbench
12-13-2008, 01:37 PM
As long as Adobe feels they need to shamelessly rip off european customers I try to avoid their products.
The English(!) Master Collection is 3330,81 in the german online store (incl. Tax). Which makes it ~4200 $. The German version would even be 200 more.
A bad joke.


-k


Europeans have to pay more so americans can pay less, it's on everything, Wacom tablets, computer parts, monitors, etc...

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