Steampunk Myths and Legends Entry: Aaron Gerber

[silenceimpaired]

http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1227484216_medium.jpg (http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1227484216_large.jpg)

When Achilles heard the fate of his friend, he was overcome with self-resentment; his only consolation was the hope of revenge. He would seek out Hector and kill him. Vulcan forged for him a new celestial armor. It contained the great inner workings of the gods, gears within gears turned within the interlocking parts, far to wonderful for a mere mortal to comprehend. As he stood before the great ramp the sound of his Myrmidons frantically surging towards his goal: Sweet Revenge. (The word "myrmidon" carried many of the same connotations that "robot" does today. The name in Classical Greek was interpreted as "ant-people", from murmekes, "ants" -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrmidons)

Comments welcomed -- in fact, begged for.

[silenceimpaired]

http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1227491185_medium.jpg (http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1227491185_large.jpg)

Colored in the major light sources, then began to dither it with burn and dodge tool.

Comments/Suggestions appreciated

[daWinky]

Hi Aaron,

ah, another classical motiv of mythologie - and you've picked a nice one:) ! I see a lot of potential in it for an interesting scene, so I'm looking forward to see your interpretation. You're going to show only the back of your main character? I'm not sure if it is such a good idea, perhaps you can change the concept to put Achilles a little more in the focus...also all the "action" is on the left side of your concept, so you have the right side with just a slope and brick walls.

Happy sketching!:wavey:

-sabrina

[silenceimpaired]

http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1227552552_medium.jpg (http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1227552552_large.jpg)

Okay, revamped. Positioned Achilles facing camera with hands outstretched looking to heaven as he utters his curse. His friend is laying dead behind him and his killer runs for the gates of troy.

Positioned main action in or on middle 3rd, also have a path of action starting from bottom right towards top right.

Thoughts? Please comment. I like this learning experience, even if it slowly drives me insane. :)

[ChrisNoeth]

Good choice on the theme!

You should check your perspective for the next steps carefully because the actual character don't fit in the perspective 100%.

I'm looking forward to your next steps.

Best wishes,

Chris

[walrus]

Good seeing you around for another challenge, Aaron. Chris has an excellent point: From this camera angle, we should be looking down on your character, as in your earlier sketches. But in the latest sketch, it looks like a side view, which doesn't match the high camera angle.
anyhow, good luck with everything! :thumbsup:

[silenceimpaired]

http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1227595301_medium.jpg (http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1227595301_large.jpg)

I changed the perspective some, tilting him towards the upcoming ramp and shrinking him slightly... not sure if i have the perspective yet... I am just horrible when it comes to perspective, and right after that is composition. I am pretty sure I could use major improvement in all the other areas of art too... but I feel weakest in these. Please let me know if this version's perspective and composition is good. Thanks!!!

[daWinky]

Hi Aaron,

The last sketch looks much better for me now from the point of composition:thumbsup: ! But as the others already said, tricky with the perspective...If you feel so uneasy with composition and perspective, perhaps have a look in the "Art Techniques and Theories" Forum , especially here (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=166&t=226083) you can find some quick and good resources about this theme. I hope this can be helpful...

-sabrina

[Ferx]

Hey Aaron!

Great to see you in this challenge my friend! :D
Really great idea, very original with great potential :)
Agree with Chris and Sabrina. Perhaps you can try with a curved road, only a comment :) Good luck and looking forward for more updates on your concept! Cheers!!

[silenceimpaired]

http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1227601535_medium.jpg (http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1227601535_large.jpg)

I reworked all the char. positions somewhat... am I there yet? I am considering dropping the entire background... and redoing it :/

[warpv]

Hey Aaron,

As many have mentionned, I think the problem right now is with perspective. I quickly checked those links that Sabrina sent, and they are an extremely great reference. Especially this one (http://handprint.com/HP/WCL/tech10.html). Everyhing you ever wanted to know about perspective seems to be there! ;)

I'm far from beeing an expert on this, but I copied your last image in photoshop and tried a few things. A good trick is to draw lines over your image to see the perspective better, the horizon line, the vanishing points, etc. Or there are grids available I believe that can do the same thing. One thing that I see is that there are a couple of different horizon lines (at different angles). And another is that there are two vanishing points very close to one another, you can do multiple vanishing points in an image, but they have to be opposing I believe. Again, I'm sure others might be in better position to help you out. But hopefully this helps out a bit!

Best of luck with the image!

[silenceimpaired]

http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1227632137_medium.jpg (http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1227632137_large.jpg)

Okay, let's start this over! I put my old background against a 3d grid and grimaced. Here is a new one. What do we think? Did I finally grasp the dark secrets of perspective, or am I doomed to forever create Egyptian Hieroglyphics? :-)

[silenceimpaired]

http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1227639887_medium.jpg (http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1227639887_large.jpg)

I wanted the action closer to the camera and the ants-- much larger since they are steam powered siege engines.

[warpv]

I saw your second to last imagea and I was just about to say, the perspective is much better, but you loose a bit the main focus of your image. But that last one you uploaded is much better! A couple of things could still be fixed, but the perspective and composition is much better than the old one I feel.

A lot of people use 3D applications with boxes and stuff to get the perspective of an image down perfectly and then paint over in Photoshop or Painter.

Anyway, I think your last upload is a great step forward, keep it up!

[silenceimpaired]

Thanks for the input! Though now I'm begging you to tell me what little things you think need fixed? :) Anyone else out there want to help me out I'd appreciate it.

[warpv]

Oups, looks like I replied to your message and not your post here. But hopefully the advice I gave you will help you out a bit! :)

[daWinky]

Hi Aaron,

there's not much to add to Christophers comment, exactly my thoughts, the last update is really way better, I like this new approach and think you can start now with some serious painting!:arteest:

-sabrina

[silenceimpaired]

http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1227768963_medium.jpg (http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1227768963_large.jpg)

It was suggested that I exaggerate the buildings in the background, and bring Achilles in closer, and I thought it was worth looking at. So here is my final study on perspective unless all scream it looks horrible. :) Please comment on it's awesomeness or lack there of. Thanks!

[daWinky]

Hi Aaron,

it looks like your virtual camera is very low now, more the perspective of the ants...and you have the dead body in the way, don't no if it's such a good idea to have him in the foreground. It's now more a matter of personal taste, but I prefer the previous concept:) ...

-sabrina

[warpv]

Hey Aaron,

See, I tend to prefer the second one. I think it makes for a much more dramatic composition...then again, it's my comments that made you try this last test, so maybe that's why! ;) Like I said, it doesn't mean that I'm right and that this is the best way to go.

Sabrina brings up a good point, that it's really a matter of taste. And in the end, it's yours that counts. You'll have to ultimately make the final decision on this and go with it! I think you've done enough composition and perspective studies, now we want to see some painting!! :)

Good luck!

[Ferx]

Hey Aaron,

Think you new perspective need a bit more "air" in the top, perhaps a vertical frame for your image. The elements on your composition need to "point" to the action or emotion that you are trying to comunicate (the Achilles revenge :)), like a frame in the image, for example, the ants forming a circle around Achilles. He is looking to the sky, you need more sky and perhaps a cone of light decending over Achiles, or a thunder ray on the sky, only some ideas :D
You are in a good way my friend!! Keep that studies ! :D Cheers! :beer:

[silenceimpaired]

http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1227842737_medium.jpg (http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1227842737_large.jpg)

Thanks for the advice guys!! I realized that my silhouettes were not quite enough for you to see my thoughts on the piece... so I did a mock lighting to show you roughly where I am going with this.

It was hard to choose which I liked more, between the two but I wanted my characters closer to the camera. Also my picture did need more sky because I wanted the light shining down on him to highlight his anguish and anger... hmmm maybe I should call it Achilles: Anguish and Anger. Eh... we'll think that out later. My thoughts are: he has already heard of his friend's death but only now is seeing it and he has just uttered his death threat to Hector (background with cape in wind) his soldiers are moving forward-- *clouds of dust around them, this all before Achilles turns to face hector.

So hopefully this shows that.

[silenceimpaired]

http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1227990301_medium.jpg (http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1227990301_large.jpg)

My original plan of rendering this in gray scale then doing colorizing it, just died. - eh, oh well.

I've started building up the walls. I decided to create a hard metal shell to the Trojan Wall. The two symbols on the wall are the symbols of Apollo and Poseidon- the supposed creators of the Trojan Wall- the only moral object that was "indestructible".

[SteevieWoo]

Aaron, buddy , I'm so very sorry it took me this long to have time and read all about your previous postings, I'm really sorry again. ;)


Well you made a big improvement with your new sketch, see, perspective is here to help the situation and not to drive you mad, (well just a bit of that), the best way to deal with it is to abuse it in your convenience and not to submit to it.

My point is, now you have a good perspective shoot, but your 3 main characters ended up pushed together in a very small area towards the lower left corner, this happens I think first, because of the low horizon, that you added for drama and that is all a good thing, second, because you placed the gates of Troy at the center of the image, which could be good for symbolism and the importance they bear in the whole deal, but lacks of protagonism before the Main action: The grief of Achilles, the one who caused it behind him, and the victim in front of him.
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff16/Steeviewoo/Untitled.jpg
As you can see you can use your space better by merely pushing the gates to the right, the characters form a line of action that ends in the gates anyway, and just a bit further you got one of two vanishing points (the significant one, since it is closer to the action). The ants all go that way, and will enhance the effect. This all is just an idea, you can twitch it in many other ways, try different framings: you could use a more panoramic canvas or get it closer to the action, whatever works for you, but don't let the perspective get you all jaded before you can even start to tell your tale, have fun with it and take it easy. ;)
My opinion that is you can show the dead body in the foreground, just be gentle with the detail you show so the image won't get all gory if you aren't looking for that. remember shadows are a great help in these cases.

OOOOHHHHHH and one more thing!! y'know, you could add some of those whupass ants crawlin' on the walls too... that'd be awesome Yeah.... I guess!

Best wishes Buddy, you got a neat theme! I'll folow the process.


Update: Sheeez you just posted another one while I wrote this, I suck. Anyway I hope all this helps , youre doing a great work on the modelig.
See you aroud!

[soapy]

Hey great start, I really like your theme with the robots ants and all. Bring it on!

[silenceimpaired]

http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1228112379_medium.jpg (http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1228112379_large.jpg)

SteevieWoo - I greatly appreciate your thoughts, but sadly I have fallen in love with my background, and will have to strive to make my characters live in it.

After I have finished some semblance of order to my background I look forward to all your views of how to best place my characters, if I ever get around to them. :)

Any thoughts on the perspective/texture/lighting of the background appreciated!!! (though lighting hasn't been touched on yet, and texture isn't done either)

[daWinky]

Hey Aaron,
but sadly I have fallen in love with my background, and will have to strive to make my characters live in it. :D so I guess the discussion about this is closed, you've chosen your concept, though I think SteevieWoo had some good suggestions! But the ideas for the background really look nice so far and so I'm looking forward to see what you've planned for your characters!

Have a good start in the week,

-sabrina

[warpv]

Indeed, thanks a lot SteevieWoo, I think we all learned a little, very informative post! :)

And Aaron, about your last update, I'm curious of your work process. Will you be using only textures for your image are will you be painting over by hand? Did you use photo references for the textures...? Just curious about how you will be working on this! Let me know!

[silenceimpaired]

http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1228147996_medium.jpg (http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1228147996_large.jpg)

Indeed, thanks a lot SteevieWoo, I think we all learned a little, very informative post! :)

And Aaron, about your last update, I'm curious of your work process. Will you be using only textures for your image are will you be painting over by hand? Did you use photo references for the textures...? Just curious about how you will be working on this! Let me know!

My main reason for deciding to stick with my background is the time I've put into it. I said comments appreciated on perspective and texture-- texture meaning the appearance of the metal etc... but this is a 2d painting. I did reference a photo for the general layout- incredibly small and unhelpful for the most part, and also a photo for the metal corner supports- but this is all hand drawn no manipulation to photos.

If I hadn't already spent so much time on the background I would definitely consider a change in format- I especially liked an image concept Ferx sent me. Also, I would like to feel like the composition is mine, and while I appreciate both Ferx and SteevieWoo's suggestion , I wouldn't feel ownership for this piece, and also I don't feel it captures the mood I'm going for.

While Achilles is the central character, he is not the theme, the theme is his anger and anguish. That is why he does not occupy the direct center, the object of his wrath is dead center- Troy and Hector, and that is framed by the means to accomplish his revenge- his steam powered ant robot soldiers, pointing towards this goal. He himself points towards his soldiers with his outstretched arms - as if to say "Go!" and to the heavens towards the "gods" who brought this to pass. In the corner the start of his wrath-- his dead cousin, which creates a nice diagonal line towards the center- him, Achilles, then Hector. Also, while I like SteevieWoo's suggestion I see no problem in having an asymmetric image, my characters are rather close in image space but not in perspective- and in SteevieWoo's image they appear to have less prominence than I would prefer.

To accomplish the right balance- I am going to experiment with a cone of light cutting through the clouds and landing on Achilles, a symbol of the last vestigial remains of the power of Apollo peaking through the storm clouds. Also, I want to experiment with rain. This scene needs a very dark and depressing feel to it and I think that rain would help accomplish that while giving depth to the picture.

So those are my thoughts on the piece in greater detail and an explanation for my stubbornness. I suspect I may yet change the orientation of the characters but I am sadly stuck with my beloved background. As always I appreciate your comments on my thought process for the image, errors in composition, perspective, (lighting, and texture/appearance of the various parts -- when I finish these two stages.)

[silenceimpaired]

http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1228199270_medium.jpg (http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1228199270_large.jpg)

Okay - The only change is that I've worked out the pillars in the middle-- not sure about the lighting... but I am pleased with the look. Comments welcome, sorry for an update with so little done so soon, I just don't like having reference images stuck as my thumbnail.

[anostudio]

wow a lot of details .. i like your sketches .. wait to see more:)

[silenceimpaired]

http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1228592993_medium.jpg (http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1228592993_large.jpg)

So I have the texture of everything mostly finished for the background-- still working on lighting (It is 2d I know-- but, I am trying to think in 3d to make this building.) Comments welcome, lighting on the way.

<edit>
Sigh-- So the far walls are a little messed up and the floor because I had an old layer on. Ignore the ground.

[silenceimpaired]

http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1228594262_medium.jpg (http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1228594262_large.jpg)

Sorry for another post, but the extra layer on was driving me crazy, also I wanted to throw up another sky concept.

[Ferx]

Hey Aaron,

The background is looking really good :D Like the new sky on your image.
I think you need to correct the perspective of the right column (pillar) and the joint of the door's wall with the right building, only a comment :) Good work! and waiting for more updates! Cheers :beer:

[silenceimpaired]

http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1228806154_medium.jpg (http://assets.cgsociety.org/challenge/entries/22/16881/16881_1228806154_large.jpg)

Okay, adjustments made... small adjustments made to right pillar and to the wall-- then half of my work got covered up by my water that is falling from above. I'm rather pleased with it, a little work left, but since this background will be out of focus, much of this detail work won't shine through anyway.

[daWinky]

Hi Aaron,

good work with the background, the waterfalls are a nice idea:thumbsup: ...perhaps more work at the edges of your background, just now the borders look a little strange, but it's a wip of course...
I'm not sure about the sky, perhaps it's too dark and cloudy for the bright environment.

Have a nice day,

-sabrina

[warpv]

Hey Aaron!

Don't worry about being stubborn, it is your image after all! And you have to be happy about it in the end!

About your last update, it's starting to take form! Even if your background will be blurred out, I would still had a little bit more detail, especially in the white portions of the wall. They still look a bit flat. I would also look at putting more interesting and dynamic cloud shapes to add to the more dramatic effect you're looking for.

Keep it up!

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