Most challenging aspect of CG

[3DArtZ]

the most challenging thing for me... right now at least...
is learning another software package.
yes, this is a bit of a stick if one wants to take it that way...
but, it is an aspect of cg for sure.
I find that its tough to take what you already know and translate it
to another software packages different names and work flow
for the same process in other packages.

[Vizfizz]

The good news is the concepts are all pretty much the same. Its just learning where all the buttons are. The problem with learning a new package is generally finding a program that works like your brain thinks. Sure you can retrain yourself, but I find that some programs are designed around a certain way of thinking.

Too bad there isn't a meme test that could assess which application is best suited towards your working and thinking style. lol

[futagoza]

For me the hardest part what i´ve learned so far is creating realistic looking materials for so called biased render engines. Once you figured out how one pagage works doesn´t necessarely mean that another package works the same way, so that you can copy ideas from other sources/packages. And when you mastered it for package "A" it doesn´t guarantee that under different lighting models/conditions the material looks the same.

My current source for understanding material creation better for unbiased render engines is the well written Kerkythea Material Guide, which you can find here:

http://www.kerkythea.net/joomla/index.phpoption=com_remository&Itemid=42&func=fileinfo&id=49

Regards
Stefan

[richardjoly]

...The problem with learning a new package is generally finding a program that works like your brain thinks....
Yes! and I have the perfect example for this... In world/terrain modeling programs, I played with MojoWorld, Terragen and Bryce with little fun and limited success. Then I tried Vue(6). Now that's my kind of program... I don't know why but it seems to me that everything is where it belongs and works as it's suppose to. I am eager to learn more about it and it's always a pleasure to use it.
The most challenging aspect of CG for me? Well, modeling, texturing and animating are always a challenge but the worst part is... finding time to sleep! As I mostly use EIAS for my work, this forum and the one at EITG are where I get all the help I need.

[DickM]

Hey Brian
I would say for me.... UV creation/Texturing, and or Compositing multipass renders.

Unfortunately I have no sites for these :(

[Vizfizz]

http://www.kerkythea.net/joomla/index.phpoption=com_remository&Itemid=42&func=fileinfo&id=49



I tried the link, but it didn't seem to work. Can you double check for us?

[mike33]

Time management is my challenge, simply finding the quality time to do quality EIAS experimenting and learning... I'd give an example but I've got to go...

Well on second thought add test rendering... I always seem to pick the options that bring my G4/400 mac to it's knees. Example Caustics on 4 glasses and 2 bottles. Darn computer rendered from 10 am to after midnight on Saturday... the bad news was my test was a failure, the good news is I was able to finish building a desk for my wife in the guest room so that I can reconfigure my office in the basement and hopefully have a better work space for learning and experimenting with art/3d....

For reference I've been browsing EITG's support pages, the manual, and Jeremy Birns lighting book[1st edition] usually in a quick and not indepth way due to time constraints. http://www.3drender.com/

Anyway as a part time dabbling artist/hobbiest my most basic issue is finding a learning path that allows me to build off of each step in a consistant way.... so many things to learn with so little time how do you decide where to start and what to focus on when there are so many things that grab your attention?

Now I reallly have to go... thanks for the coffee break

~Mike

[richardjoly]

This is the corrected link (it was missing the ? in php?option):
http://www.kerkythea.net/joomla/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=42&func=fileinfo&id=49

This brings some tutorials in PDF.
http://www.kerkythea.net/joomla/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=42&func=select&id=6

[Vizfizz]

Hi Mike,

Well if you're just trying to find your footing in the CG industry, what kinds of things appeal to you most? Do you favor one discipline over another? I've found each discipline definitely has its own "career" track.

Richard,

What specifically about UV's gives you trouble?

[mike33]

" what kinds of things appeal to you most? Do you favor one discipline over another?"

I am a generalist and a story person. I love stories. Be it in a sculpure, painting, pen and ink, chicken scratch on a napkin, animated short, feature film, graphic novel or a 3d model. I love the conceptual phase, the work to flush it all out and produce it, and the tweaking that finalizes what we see in the end.

For whatever reason 3d has captivated me and denied me. I can work with people here at the day job and show them how to use Unigraphics with confidence on most any simple piece part issue, but sitting with EIM has been very elusive and without finding a workflow yet. Sitting with EIAS has been even more elusive.

I'm not sure if I'm trying to find a footing in CG as much as I'm trying to find a consistent away to take my stories and turn them into images that I can show you and others. My hope is to go from screenplay, to concept, to storyboard, to graphic novel which would hopefully support an animated film. There is much to learn in that hope, and as I said, how do you balance it all in a way that moves you forward consistantly on a very part time basis, especially when it's highly unlikely I could find someone who could help me leave my day job and focus on being a WWW.lotsofrobots.com (http://www.lotsofrobots.com) or www.rustboy.com (http://www.rustboy.com) type of artist full time... though a professor at Hampshire college reminded me with his work http://hampshire.edu/perry/blog/ and his film in progress http://helios.hampshire.edu/perry/blog/2008/06/long-awaited-tower-37-nee-uprising.html that you don't have to do it all by yourself.

Anyhow, I think I have digressed from your intent of this thread... time to go home and make a little progress on my pipe dreams...

Thanks,

~Mike

[Vizfizz]

Mike.. you're not going against the intent of the thread.. you're getting right down to the heart of the matter. I'm looking to find a new focus for this forum and point it in a different direction. If we can identify core issues we can establish new ways to address the kinds of problems people typically encounter when working in CG...whether in general or specifically in EI.

[Martin Kay]

Well I think a lot of folk have trouble with almost every aspect of 3d, but personally with me the hardest part is modelling. I suspect it's the most frustrating part for many others. Then it probably depends on what you are modelling most of the time.
Yes, 3d is pretty tricky overall, but lack of modelling skills/knowhow and you don't get past the first post as it were... There's nothing to compare with learning from an experienced user who can show all the hidden techniques and procedures you'd never sort on your own.

As for where you can get help with modelling- er in not very many places, unless you are using Modo (which I am more and more). Modo has a stack of really good tutorials available on their site.
If you take an app like c4d which I used to use a lot, there are hardly any modelling tutorials of any value- not even on their Cineversity site.
Rhino has quite a lot of modelling tutorials, especially if you pay for them- at all levels of difficulties available from their site.
As a postscript, I'm not aware of many EI modelling tuts, unless you count the work Cristobel has put up.

Martin K

[Vizfizz]

Of the existing online training facilities out there which have you guys used?

Gnomon Online
Animation Mentor
Lynda.com
Digital Tutors

[kevmo]

Hi all:

I agree with Martin on the modeling. I have been learning Modo when time permits me to.
Luxology has alot of learning materials, from users, third party, and of course luxology.tv.
And I find it very interesting to see different approaches to modeling styles (in any package), meaning instead of trying to figure out the best way on your own and probably painting yourself into a corner, you can get a good foundation for different techniques to apply to many situations.
I remember learning alot from PaulS in EIM and saying to myself, I would of never thought of doing it like that, and of course not having alot of reference to EIM training anyway.
I really like the onscreen training (without a ton of explanation), just watch & follow along style training, a mini project. Not alot of: this button does this, and this does that etc., an actual project.
I bought a year premium subscription to Lynda.com ($375) and it is pretty great.
I am studying for Adobe ACE certification and it has helped immensely.
There is so much material - 3DS max, AfterFX, Maya, etc. I've been watching the new ZBrush tutorials this weekend, and I might buy it, looks like alot of fun.
I highly recommend Lynda.com for content & price.
DigitalTutors has some good Modo stuff too.
I also find that some instructors put me to sleep, and others I'm hanging on to every word, so I think teaching style, content and voice is an important consideration!

I guess in my case, as I don't care for math too much, scripting is a tough thing to learn.
and I took programing courses many years ago and hated it!
I guess if I had to, needed to and there was good training, I'd learn it.

thanx for reading
thanx
k!

[cjberg]

most challenging is getting a character rigged...

(YES, I am going to beat this into the ground!!!)

Cj

[plsyvjeucxfw]

Probably most difficult for me is Modeling.

Without a model, proceeding to rigging - texturing - etc. is a moot point. Although I suppose I could just buy or download freebies, but I still want to learn to model well.

Adding to the difficulties is that there appear to be several styles of modeling:

NURBS Solids and Surfaces,
NURBS Patch Modeling,
Hard Polygon,
Subdivision Surfaces,
and even Procedural like creating terrain objects with Vue, et. al, and abstract shapes like with Groboto.

Each requires a different mind set, different work flow, and tools.

As far as a learning resource, my next purchase is going to be the 3D Buzz "Mastering Maya: Advanced Modeling" disk:

http://www.3dbuzz.com/xcart/product.php?productid=35&cat=9&page=1

I'm currently chewing through their "Maya Fundamentals" disk, and it is excellent, highly recommended.

[Vizfizz]

I forgot about Buzz3D. Thanks for bringing that one back up. So lots of modeling questions and concerns it sounds like. That would directly impact UV concepts too.

Rigging would probably be the most application specific discipline I could think of considering how each program seems to approach rigging with its own twist.

[Vizfizz]

Hey Kurt,

Do you have a favorite modeling technique? Which do you like more: Nurbs, Polys, or SubDs? In the previs world, most of my modeling is solely done in Polys.

[ediris]

Hi,
For me the most difficult thing is not one but a lot of the CG industry

Story Boarding
Inspiration
Innovation
Lightning my scene, setting the mood and environment.

The rest can be learn with time.

[Vizfizz]

So realistically Edgard, it sounds like you're looking for more help in the preproduction phase so to speak.

[ediris]

Yeah i will like to learn Story Flow i think in Film is not StoryBoarding but SequencePlanner i donot remember.

[fantomaz]

The most difficulty for me is: to not speaking native english.

Of course you get a lot of help by doing tuts, talk in forum and so on,
but its very frustrating when it comes to specific cg-talking, especially
in chatrooms, forums or by mail (EIhowtolist for example)

After a short while you cant follow as you would in your first language,
and because the whole cg industrie talks english (a very special english)
you loose attention.

I will give you an example:

In my first language we have the word "Animation".
There are three different meanings:
1. Disney & Co (2D animated films, comic books etc.)
2. Hollywood movies (films with 3D animations, FX and so on, like Matrix, ToyStory...)
3. If you are in your holidays and stay in a clubhotel, there are a lot of
"Animations" around you: sport, dancing, leisure activitys in general.

An other example:
In EI7 you can "clamp" values from 1 to 10....
If you try to translate that in german, you are "lost in translation".

Now you could imagine what it looks like when it comes to wording
you dont understand correctly and have to look in translationbooks
for the right meaning of the spoken/writen word(s).
For me its a lot of try and error.

Sometimes its hard as hell (especially when it comes to dialect/idiom etc.)

fantomaz

[DickM]

Hey Brian
I guess initial layout and unwrapping. Bodypaint is great but the actual phase of laying em out can be tricky. I know I'm missing something. Also, I'd like to test out Silo's ability to unwrap and layout UV's....it being a new feature in Silo.

[richardjoly]

Right Richard, UV mapping...
I use it if it is provided with the model I purchase...but, I never did set it up from start to finish. I would not even know where to start...

[rtrowbridge]

I'll go with modeling and UV texturing. The only modelers I use are EIM and Wings3D. A great site of Wings3d tutorials is...


http://www.geocities.com/paulthepuzzles/aardvarks.html

Using Wings 3D is the only way I've been able to create an object with UV coordinates. It creates the UV map that you can edit in a paint program and then bring into EIAS through transporter (obj) or fbx.

I'm okay with basic modeling, but the incredible detail I see on some objects just blows me away. Sometimes, I think I can see how it's done, but other times, I have no clue. The Sentinel tutorial is still one of my favorites to help me understand how to create complex shapes (and basically everything else on the eterea website).

Ross

[plsyvjeucxfw]

Hey Brian,

Do you have a favorite modeling technique? Which do you like more: Nurbs, Polys, or SubDs? In the previs world, most of my modeling is solely done in Polys.

I've had some decent luck with polys. Especially when I just knock stuff together with primitives, maybe pull and attach a few verts.

I think I'm about sold on MoI for doing mechanical, designed, type objects. I'm just waiting now to see what Tesla looks like. I'll probably make a decision some time in the spring.

For organics and poly work I bounce back and forth between Silo and Hexagon. Truth be told however, I really lack the knowlege to be able to use either one effectively. Thus the need to purchase the 3D Buzz modeling course.

[scottfox]

Modeling is EASIEST for me because I use invigerator and illustrator for 90% of my imagery.
And turbosquid or Paul S for the rest :) - my clients dont want to spend money on the modeling side of a project, you either make it quick or buy it. Model prices are so low now,
its made buying a model as easy as buying a song on itunes. (not quite that cheap)
......
Id say, storyboarding, but again, most of my clients are providing ME with their story boards to bring to life so to speak. When asked to storyboard it is difficult for me because my design and animation tends to be a fluid process and some like to see what you will do before you actually do it. So my catch 22 is Im pretty weak at it, but im never really asked to do it, (accept at a certain job I did with Brian here ;) recently.)
......
id say my most challenging current cg issue I face is the business side. - How much to charge for given services - how often to follow up with clients - LA client needs and wants vs most all my other clients and how they differ greatly. - Who do I target with my skillset - how long do I stick with EI exclusively, or at all - web site \demo reel issues. -
.....
IK and fluids would be my 3d mega weak areas. I own real flow, so I read up on them and have to look into other software to really use it completely.

[3dData]

Modeling for me. Real world objects with solids/surface modeling.

The more I learn, the more I realize I know nothing. :)

[ediris]

......
id say my most challenging current cg issue I face is the business side. - How much to charge for given services - how often to follow up with clients - LA client needs and wants vs most all my other clients and how they differ greatly. - Who do I target with my skillset - how long do I stick with EI exclusively, or at all - web site \demo reel issues. -


So true, if you charge to much they will think twice before considering you for another job opening.(Even if you do a terrific job)

If you charge to low they think your work is weak.
So at these stage i am glad i got some clients that knows how much work it takes to get things done and we have made a good relationship wich can some times not work on your favor, ¨oh i dont have money to pay you,can you wit for the end of the next month?¨

[frogjackson]

I'd like to echo Scott's post regarding the business aspect of 3D as being the most challenging element of such work.

The advent of faster and cheaper computers and more capable applications has made the industry here in the UK a huge mix of professional houses, professional individuals, and back bedroom operations all offering a myriad of differing quality work at differing prices.

Add to that the advent of some very capable outfits operating overseas where labour and living costs are lower without the boundaries of physical geography affecting delivery, it being possible via the net in the most part, and business planning is a tough nut to crack.

Again, here in the UK there is no single organisation which you can become a member of and have that accreditation mean something to clients. There are lots of organisations that you can join for a fee but at the end of the day if your ability to join is based purely on money then its just a case of who has the spare cash to get on the list.

Is there an organisation in the US (or elsewhere) that vets company/individual portfolios and selectively provides accreditation ?

Hope this isn't too off topic.

James

[scottfox]

maybe I hit a nerve here, James, It is the same in the US with some exceptions in the NY and LA's of the world. If you were to work for one of a handful of "elite" animation and effects houses in either town, you get sort of a 'pass' by a lot of other smaller venues. "that person must be good if they worked for xyz" Thats as good as gold around here, its a relatively tight group of people that have that 'free pass' so to speak.
......
You cant really join anything that gives you some form of certifiable accreditation. Oh, you can get adobe certified expert papers that might as well have come out of a cereal box, but it seems that your demo reel and client list is the high end calling cards out there. The hard part, I am finding is, especially in LA, is that people want to put you into a category. Your mograph, your an effects guy etc. The rest of the country is less narrow minded.
......
things are coming to a leveling out in my opinion. Fewer and fewer clients are willing to pay not only for the services their getting but for the bloated overhead the company they
hired has to maintain. One of my bigger clients is in South Korea. While another client I am working on tonight is 4 miles away frome me. Im just riding a wave right now and the "rules" are being established on the fly. Exciting, but nerve racking.

[Martin Kay]

I'd like to echo Scott's post regarding the business aspect of 3D as being the most challenging element of such work.

The advent of faster and cheaper computers and more capable applications has made the industry here in the UK a huge mix of professional houses, professional individuals, and back bedroom operations all offering a myriad of differing quality work at differing prices.

Add to that the advent of some very capable outfits operating overseas where labour and living costs are lower without the boundaries of physical geography affecting delivery, it being possible via the net in the most part, and business planning is a tough nut to crack.

Again, here in the UK there is no single organisation which you can become a member of and have that accreditation mean something to clients. There are lots of organisations that you can join for a fee but at the end of the day if your ability to join is based purely on money then its just a case of who has the spare cash to get on the list.

Is there an organisation in the US (or elsewhere) that vets company/individual portfolios and selectively provides accreditation ?

Hope this isn't too off topic.

James


Lol! What's accreditation worth? You need some sort of accreditation in the UK to install Central Heating, but it's absolutely no guarantee you get a good job done.

Martin K

[plsyvjeucxfw]

From the aspect of business, and take it for what it's worth:

http://www.pixelcorps.com/

Alex Lindsay is trying to put together an old fashioned "Craft Guild" of digital content creative types, with an eye towards standard prices, quality, training, and community.

[kevmo]

Oh, you can get adobe certified expert papers that might as well have come out of a cereal box,

I totally agree with that. out here it's getting more competitive (always has but worse now).
So I'm going to have to take crappy pre-press work or AE jobs, so I think it'll help.

Yes, it's total BS, but the upside is after seeing the test example questions, it's forced me to
study and learn.

at the very least hopefully no one will ask me "do you know how to use layers?" :)

k!

[AVTPro]

I'd like to echo Scott's post regarding the business aspect of 3D as being the most challenging element of such work.

The advent of faster and cheaper computers and more capable applications has made the industry here in the UK a huge mix of professional houses, professional individuals, and back bedroom operations all offering a myriad of differing quality work at differing prices.

Add to that the advent of some very capable outfits operating overseas where labour and living costs are lower without the boundaries of physical geography affecting delivery, it being possible via the net in the most part, and business planning is a tough nut to crack.

Again, here in the UK there is no single organisation which you can become a member of and have that accreditation mean something to clients. There are lots of organisations that you can join for a fee but at the end of the day if your ability to join is based purely on money then its just a case of who has the spare cash to get on the list.

Is there an organisation in the US (or elsewhere) that vets company/individual portfolios and selectively provides accreditation ?

Hope this isn't too off topic.

James

Hey Geordie, If this was YouTube I'd give this post 5 stars. (*****)

[scottfox]

Well, I think this topic is a bit like an onion. On the surface, it calls for an answer related to 'technique' - like "rigging" or "modeling" or "realism\texturing". What, (as we peel the onions layers a bit) we discover is the universal issue we virtually all face, related to 3d animation and motion graphics. How can i make a living doing this thing we love.

It probably calls for its own thread here, or maybe another forum.

EI, to me, adds another layer to the onion, so to speak. I can make a living (so far so good) as an independent animator\studio, using EI and AE as core tools. But if I wanted to work for an employer, EI is rarely if ever the 3d tool used. Ironically to me, the major tv stations I worked for here in the US, in Chicago and Los Angeles, were very flexible with what I used. (those environments called more for an individual animator to take a job from a producer through its completion, so there was no 'pipeline' of animators to have to worry about)

There is one thing I think that makes it tough to even talk to peers about, and that is WHAT to charge. Its all over the map. I can see it leveling out in the years to come,
but right now its a lot like what I went through in the early 90's when SGI workstations
did most the "hi end" 3d and effects work. The great part for me was that WHEN I earned the confidence of a client, I could charge 'near' SGI pricing for my work because it rivaled the SGI output VISUALLY. But there were still clients i remember to this day that would not even VIEW my reel when they asked if I used SGI or not. There was a cache'
that was attached to the SGI Brand that simply meant 'the best' to some producers.

Whens the last time anyone has asked any of us what HARDWARE we use? If its anything its, "what software do you use?" or "we need Maya or Cinema or AE users". Thats pretty much understood today. What is NOT as understood is... Maya = $hr? Cinema = $hr AE = $hr. What if you are good at multiple apps? Then the onion thing comes into play again. Even if you put a number at, say, $50hr for Maya. If you have used Maya and worked on a few motion pictures or a few Nationally prominent ad campaigns Suddenly that $50 turns into $100 - $150hr (just a guess) If you use maya and your right out of school, it could be $20 - $50hr. Throw in whether your an expert any given 'feature' of Maya, like say, Fluids or texturing and I cant even guess what that would pay. (All these numbers are just for discussion, not based on anything but my 'american' guesstimates.) It seems to me that that $ per hour amount is a moving target. I get clients that insist on me giving them a 'day rate $ per hr' number. I admit to struggling with that. My first 18 months in LA here, I know I have missed out on some work because I bid too high. It drove me nuts to begin with, because deep down I know I would have done the job for less. BUT, if they were to use me for too low of a rate, how easy is it too raise that rate much at all without them looking elsewhere.

Where does EI fall in this whole equation? For me (and obviously thats all i can share with anyone is my experiences) The GOOD news is that there seems to be enough work in the places online that I look for work on, that don't REQUIRE a specific 3d app. Just, 3d experience. BAD NEWS is that 'enough work' (in the places I look) is about 2 - 3 out of say 10 ads for a 3d artist that I see. In a given month where I may look aggressively for
work ads on that one site alone, i respond to roughly 15-30 ads a month. (out of about 101 ads - I counted this months :)) I have been REALLY blessed to, up until this time, get about a 40-50% response to the ads. 7-15 responses, I may get 4-8 jobs out of it. Thats in a month where every day I check the jobs board and every day I respond to the appropriate ads. I obviously dont do that every month. Throw in that the client wants the world for cheap, I bid too high, or it does not 'feel' right and thats how 15 responses turns into 4 - 8 real jobs. For me to make ends meet I need to, on AVERAGE make about $800 a job. To profit and save some money or pay down on debt, buy software etc. I need to obviously make more than that. Thats MY situation in LA where cost of living is pretty high and my healthcare is $1500 a month for my small family of 3. and some cats :)

I guess im sharing these things to help provide one EI users scenario on the business of
3d heavy Motion Graphics, were all obviously unique people with our own strengths, weaknesses and financial situations. I would love to have a survey of EI users and what percentage of us is self employed or small business owners, what percentage are working FOR a company. And what % are a hobbyist or evening freelancers.

The overall 'cg challenge' as this thread originally asked for, has lead a lot of us too the
even LARGER challenge of how we can sell these skills we all have. Roughly 70% of my work is done and delivered over the internet. So, as others have said, I\we can always consider living someplace else cheap, without losing too much work. For example, lastly, I lived in Orlando Florida for about a year, 3 years ago, and a Brand New 3 story 2100 sq foot 2 car garage rental went for $1000-1100 a month! Less than half of what I pay now.
And Orlando is a nice place to live. Im sure others could give much cheaper prices for other areas in the US or abroad. We all have choices to make, it just does not help any of us that there are no real standards set in our industry for pay rates. Not to mention benefits. Its funny, but even some friends of mine in the business here (no, not Brian :))
when I chat with them, we never talk business dollars or hourly rates. My hunch is that none of us wants to reveal how MUCH we may get from client A. Or how little were willing to work for client B. Its no fun finding out a friend of yours with similar skills may get $50 more an hour than you do. Or the reverse, admitting you make much less an hour than maybe your worth. It IS life though. And ultimately we\I personally wish anyone the most financial success they can achieve. Thats only one small part of ones happiness in life anyway. (for most of us) So as I ramble on here about all different aspects of money and our 3d\2d careers, I think it all comes back to the fact that we are living in what I feel is a once every 20 or 30 yr cycle. It would help if there were some agreed upon certification of certain skillsets. Which could lead to more of a predictable understanding of what our skills are worth in the job market. I cant see how that would be possible given half of our jobs is technical knowledge of the software and its settings, which CAN be measured to some extent. The other half is creativity, which can be measured, and is measured by INDIVIDUAL employers day in and day out. But to paint one artists creativity with ONE score only is ridiculous and unrealistic. One artists work may be seen as very good by one judge and average by another.

Anyway, id encourage a dialogue among us to help each other learn a little more on the
business\financial side of our field. Or not....... :)

[Jens C. Möller]

Hi all,

for me the hardest part in 3D is simulation. Since the clients get used to more and more sophisticated CG effects the demand for realistic looking water, motion, fire, explosions, clouds etc. is increasing steadily. Now, to make good looking water for instance is always a challenge - the more complicated the more interaction there is.

A glass of water my be fairly easy to do also and Ocean. But what about water that dynamically interacts with teh scene? You start to simulate it and it takes ages to compute only to give you a 90% result, since you are no expert with such software and there is no time left to tweak the simulation again - since it would eat another three days of simulation rendering.

I imagine a 3D system, that is built around a physics core. Just every object in your scene has a weight, a volume by default. An environment, where I can just define a date and time and place, and get an adequat lighting for that day in that location (always modifiable of course). The hassle now to place a sun light if you want to have it correct with plugins and scripts etc. is absolutely free of fun and a work that should be doable with just a button or a couple of sliders.

I am no gamer, but I play the story mode of some games now and than especially when there is a rich 3D environment. I have played Crysis and was impressed, and now I am looking into FarCry 2. The most amaizing thing about it is the Level Editir that comes on the DVD. It is so easy to create a really realistic looking environment with rivers, lakes, rocks, plants, buildings, bridges, weather, time of day, hdr lighting, physics etc. and minutes latr you run through it.

If I had all the models I have ever dealt with in a single click library that I could just place in the scene, than let it go and the ming vase breaks into a thousand pieces if you let it go to high above the ground... If there was more interactivity between content creation tools, and such "renderers" or "visulising systems" such an application would make my day - with Camera for the final render output ;)

So, beside the business aspect of the trade, which I am still not clear about up until the present day - it seems that somehow you get money for the work you do but you always have the feeling it wasn't enough ;) - the hardest part for me is to go through all the really basic things again and again and again to reach my aim.

Jens

Edit: Marlyse Comte once said (greetings to her, Bear) everything between you and your final animation product or "vision" can be considered to be a workaround.

[richardjoly]

...I imagine a 3D system, that is built around a physics core. Just every object in your scene has a weight, a volume by default. An environment, where I can just define a date and time and place, and get an adequat lighting for that day in that location (always modifiable of course). The hassle now to place a sun light if you want to have it correct with plugins and scripts etc. is absolutely free of fun and a work that should be doable with just a button or a couple of sliders...and now I am looking into FarCry 2. The most amaizing thing about it is the Level Editir that comes on the DVD. It is so easy to create a really realistic looking environment with rivers, lakes, rocks, plants, buildings, bridges, weather, time of day, hdr lighting, physics etc. and minutes latr you run through it.

This is where we're heading Jens, and then, everybody will be able to do great animations and we'll all loose our jobs! Lucky for us we live in a world where we still have to work hard (and render fast) to make a living...
Really, you are right, these games engines are astonishing. The other day my son called me in his cavern to show me an XBox game where, while he was driving a really nice car, he could changed interactively, the season, time of day, weather, haze, fog with realistic lighting and great shadows. (I went outside to cry in fetal position for an hour...)

Scott
I can probably tell you the kind of answer you will get if you start a thread about $.
1- It depends of the type of job, movie, TV, corporate... They all pay different...
2- It depends of your skills and notoriety...
3- It depends of the availability of artists in your particular area...
4- The client tells me he will have better paying jobs later if I help him now... What do I do?
5- Is 25$/hour too much?
6- Me? I never touch anything below 150$/hour...
7- Should I go with a fix rate or hourly?
I can go on forever... I have been following this kind of thread for years. You will get thousands of readers with very few posts and end up knowing nothing more than you do right now. You say you and your friends never talk about the value of a job, have you tried coming up with your info? I did. We talked about 1 or 2 jobs we did and how much we got for it and that there should be a chart with minimum wage and a few examples like a 10 seconds flying logo at 500$ minimum and so on and so on.
Years later there is still no such a chart and many unsuccessful tries to come up with an association that could represent us all only proved that this is probably not feasible or really wanted.
Telling others how much you make is quite sensitive. I consider I make a good living doing what I do. I don't own a house but I rent a nice place. I don't own a new car but I have one kid in college and one in private school. We travel a little and pay all our bills... on time...
For me, this is making a good living. Some would need more, others would need less. I do graphic design, print jobs, photography, 2D and 3D animation and I'm not picky...
I charge between 20$ and 100$ an hour depending of the client and the type of job. I have NO idea what others make in my area...

[mike33]

Scott wrote "...It would help if there were some agreed upon certification of certain skillsets. Which could lead to more of a predictable understanding of what our skills are worth in the job market...."

I haven't done any work for people as a business, but I've been commissioned on 3 logo's, 2 for non-profits, and one for a new business. They were all happy with my work. My payment was in T-shirts, hats, a couple coffee cups, all with the logo and a weekend on Marth's Vineyard as a token of appreciation. It's been great to see these clients enthusiam for my designs and I surely appreciate their confidence in me, but as I've noted in other threads, my Mac is 9 years old and I'm getting kind of desperate to replace and upgrade.

So I've been trying to understand how to deal with pricing and I picked up the
The 12th Edition: Graphic Artists Guild Handbook: Pricing & Ethical Guidelines

http://www.gag.org/pegs/index.php

Maybe some help to others?

Otherwise... It has always amazed me to hear people say that one job could pay for their equipment and software... I think that what's been missing for me - confidence and focus to get to that level of an artist.

...so add that to the most challenging part of CG mix... the confidence to go freelance or to walk away from a good job to follow your dream.

Lots of respect for those who've been able to work freelance successfully and provide for their families.

Lunch is over...Cheers,

Mike

[ediris]

Just wanted to contribute to the converstaion which it always is interesting to talk about one and the other is making an hour or making per project,as i do charge by project.

You guys are lucky to charge by the hour.In my case i charge by the project or if is a firndly clinet i try to make him pay in easy payments. Sometimes i am very loose on money and i let them know that i need these amount period.

I think it all comes down on the physical area you are , i donot in the states but in Spain is very low salary what thge companies get for any given production. SO i charge by project,sometimews they pay me in two months sometimes in more. Is like that.


500$ for a flying in logo, jajaja where are you living richard...there isn o way a client will pay that amount of momney of r a flying in logo. I got payed for a whole intro with a flying logo with a wehole moth of work 1000euros. So you see what is the difference. BUT I HAVE to pay my bills. Now i am in SIngapore, working for a creative shop, i am doing a workj for them that includes video and 3d and i will be geting paid 800$ in singaporean money will be 1.5K which is good money in SIngapore. SO it all depends where you set your headquaters.

[richardjoly]

500$ for a flying logo was an example Edgard. While it would be normal in Montreal this might be very expensive in Spain or way too cheap in LA where my friend rent a 2 bedroom apartment for 3500$/month and Scott pays 1500$/month for healthcare...

Mike, for your info, I have a day job and luckily I can also do freelance gigs. Freelancing alone would bring more than my share of headache... Oh and for that dream of getting one job that pays for your computer and software... It happens... Keep dreaming. Jobs are everywhere just hunt for them. Surf the web, check sites selling products that actually cry for a little 3D animation... Do it then show them, you don't have the pressure or deadline and it makes something in your portfolio. Check with local small video production houses, they often do training videos begging for 3D, Technical Advisor Firms often have Autocad stuff they just want to visualize in 3D... So many gigs to do if you're not too picky...

[Jens C. Möller]

I think you always get payed what a client thinks the job is worth - and what he thinks you are worth. If you are a senior with years of production credits and a beefy reel you can get realistic prices - that lets you make a living. I am a freelancer and feed four kids with it :) Its always a rollercoaster - either noone calls you, or all at once, thats the price for your freedom. But actually, I would not do a flying Logo for $500. Maybe as a favor for someone, but no. My time is more valuable than that.

Jens

Edit: My experience is, if you are too cheap people will not take you serious.

[BDismukes]

I've been flying logos for about 20 years and have been using EI for all of it. Zaxwerks Pro Modeler and Illustrator account for 90% of my modeling needs for clients and the few times I've needed anything else, I've been able to find for free or purchased from Turbo Squid. In the interest of staying somewhat competitive, I have taken to using Modo for modeling and rendering, but am still experimenting and learning from my many, many failures but still managing to figure it out.
The single thing that completely and absolutely baffles me is scripting. Xpressionist, JAVA, MEL, all of them. They might as well be sanskrit to me. It seems that if it doesn't have a GUI, and sometimes even if it does (I'm talking to you Blender), I stand no chance of learning, figuring out or stumbling onto a solution. If it weren't for the pick whip in after effects, I'd have no idea they were of any use at all.
The thing before that was UVs, but thanks to Modo's vast training resources, they seem to be coming into focus, though I have yet to use them in EI. Normal maps too.

Bd.

[richardjoly]

...I would not do a flying Logo for $500. Maybe as a favor for someone, but no. My time is more valuable than that.

I can understand by looking at your productions that it requires a level of competence not many animators have reach and that flying logos might not be your thing... But I'm sure many users here would find a 500$ flying logo job interesting... We all started somewhere. :)

...My experience is, if you are too cheap people will not take you serious.
That is so true. When you know what you're worth don't shy out, you may loose a couple of contracts at the beginning but eventually, it is worth. Problem is often what are you worth...

[Jens C. Möller]

That is so true. When you know what you're worth don't shy out, you may loose a couple of contracts at the beginning but eventually, it is worth. Problem is often what are you worth...

Its like in any other job. If you are new, your rates are low. if you have done it several years, your rates increase. Its just your level of profession that makes your rate. I also would have done fyling logos for $500,00 when I wanted to get a foot into 3D (and I have done much bigger jobs for less), and there are these jobs and yes, if you want to go somewhere, make this logo and the next and the next and learn learn learn. One day you have so many 500$ logos on your reel, and some of them are exceptional, you get a job of an ad agency for a bigger brand, and rates increase. And at each step you will want to consult someone who says to you "This job is xxx$ worth, so claim it." And it will always be up to you in the end what the deal will be. Its not bad to ask people, just to get a feeling, and its also for me always surprising when I get to know the rates of my competitors. But even than you see, that they also use their rates also as political instrument, like, "We want this job, lets make the rate lower to get a foot into the door." Also big shops. There is no labor-union for us (at least not here).

The market makes the price :) All Americans here should know that by now.

Jens

Edit: I also do low rate jobs, and the rates for some clients are higher as for others. Its just each client relation is unique, and you do it or not based on the benefit you have from it. The benefit may not be monetary but maybe in other aspects like emotional relation, fame, or any other reason why you would do somthing other than for money. I mean, maybe you are in love with her ;)

Edit 2: The base of my rate is simply the money that I need to make a living. Its simple math, I spend this and that for living, tools, machines, rents, etc. And I have 200 days to make it. Just devide it and I land at my rate/day. If you can't charge this, you do not have a profitable business and should do something else. If you can make a living with your job, all is fine.

[scottfox]

Yeah, my rates like every one elses it seems varies. Im "a store selling a product." If I have no customers at a given time I may accept a $750 flying, 4-8 second logo. I can do that usually in 1-2 days max. Depending on complexity. My day rate has varied from $600 - $1000 (mostly $6-800) SO FAR. Edgard, I only work with an hourly rate when the CLIENT WANTS that.
I cant call the shots on that. I like working flat fee jobs as well because I consider myself fast and that usually translates into a better 'hourly rate' for me. Around here In LA I do a lot of $300 quickie, I need it now 3-4 hr jobs. Thats why I moved here. Once your in a producers speed dial, your golden. They want fast and reliable. Rent, insurance, food etc
hits me for roughly $4500 a month in Downtown LA. In a 30 day month, which is what a self employed business owner is AVAILABLE to work, I need to pull in an average of $150
a day to meet my bills. Im no financial genious by any stretch, but what I charge ultimately does not matter as much as do I need the work and will it reasonably get done efficiently. Im looking at my 2008 invoices and am right around 50 for the year so far. Basic math has me needing to average about $900 a job. luckily for me I was blessed this year with a handful of 5 figure jobs throughout the year to make it a very good year for me. I admit to being nervous about the cost of living out here, and 'can I make it' but its the kick ass roller coaster self employment can be. I need no more motivation than my beautiful wife and baby girl. I think its good advice to remind people who try self employment (Ive been self empl for about 8 years) that when and if you do profit, make SURE to feed a bank account that will act as your backup in case of tough times. The rule of thumb is 3 months living expenses, so for me presently, thats $15k. Im almost there, and its such peace of mind when you can do it. When I was younger that money went a lot of places i dont want to mention ;) but now I actually have to care about someone besides myself so, damn it comes responsibility.

anyway, im sharing numbers again, that i feel are modest, to help show at least how I look at the bills and billing of clients. Self employment is tough, but the payoff is soooooo
worth it if you can maintain a decent client list mixed in with some new business.

In Milwaukee, my monthly nut was so much lower, but the work was so much harder to find. Also, when I would tell a client where I was from, Milwaukee did not exactly make my clients feel like I was anything special. That was 8 years ago roughly. I had to jump through a ton of extra hoops to "prove myself" back then even with a decent reel.
LA has brought me, surprisingly to me at first, this sort of, "he must be good, hes out in LA" for a lot of my mid level clients around the country it actually seemed to be a cool thing to them. (I wish I moved here 15 years ago) Oh well.

success to all....

[Jens C. Möller]

Rent, insurance, food etc
hits me for roughly $4500 a month in Downtown LA. In a 30 day month, which is what a self employed business owner is AVAILABLE to work, I need to pull in an average of $150
a day to meet my bills.

I think this equation is wrong. When I look for my daily rates I sure do NOT include weekends, four weeks vacation, at least two weeks of illness (knock on wood), and at least one month of no-job-time. Than you land at 15 8 hour working days for one 30 day month. And thats the price + some profit of course.

And indeed, a familiy is a BIG motivator ;)

Jens

[scottfox]

jens, you never work weekends? you are a lucky man. FYI- im leaving on a 3 and a half week vacation in 2 weeks, so I enjoy the freedoms ive earned. My math is completely valid. It is a luxury to me that I can spread my weeks worth of work comfortably whenever I need to in a given day. My work day is also a 16 hr day. I leave 8 hrs for sleep as a minimum goal every day. I love this way of looking at things. So much less stress knowing that if i need to put in 40hrs in a given week, I can do it at my most comfortable time, be it evening, weekend or morning. I can plan around dinners, my 3month olds sleep times, my wifes requests. Etc. Now, if on a given week or two here and there I accept a couple of jobs at once working 12 hour days and weekends and manage to pull in 2 months of 'salary'
in 2-3 hard working weeks, you bet ill do that. It gives me and my family security and freedom. Not to mention, I am HOME sitting next to my baby watching my 120" HD projector and spending every render break helping out around the house and playing with Kathyrn! I would NEVER try and force my work into a 9-5 mon - fri 4 weeks vacation type of mold. I personally shoot for 8 weeks myself. Than again I love what i do so every day is a vacation for me :)

To each his own, but I prefer a low stress high flexibility work week. Work hard and play hard! Just because I make myself available all those hours does not mean i work them all, but im one motivated guy so, you never know....

again, peace and success to all.....

[Martin Kay]

You certainly can't generalise on anything related to financial rewards in graphics and photography especially if you are an unknown (even if you have a lot of experience) Those with more 'front' (better known) will always be able to command higher fees as they are able to attract more work and vice versa. Some companies won't touch lone freelancers directly and prefer to work with a larger or well known establishment.


Martin K

[Jens C. Möller]

jens, you never work weekends?

Did I say that? ;) The last weekend was the first free weekend since 2 and a half months, and I have had no vacation so far this year. On the other hand, it pays.

I only said that weekends are not part of the math I do to estimate my daily rate.

Jens

[Vizfizz]

The Graphic Artists' Guild Pricing and Ethical Guidelines book has a great formula for helping determine a "rate". I'll try to summarize it here as soon as I can.

[estudiodesign]

Hi all,

very interesting discussion...
On the one side I´m surprised to hear that also experienced professionals
seem to go into a skid when it comes to making prices.
For me that`s a nightmare every time, because there are no standards.

Ok...there ARE standards...
(f.e. "SDSt/AGD collective agreement on fees for design services", www.agd.de).
This fee tables are based on 70Euro per hour and refer to the fees for design work
(2D, also 3D meanwhile as far as I know) including the assignment of rights of use (as it should be !).
But even design agencies who should know about that often simply ignore those arguments.

This year I had the chance to do a (2D to 3D) logo-refinement for a german first class soccer club.
I thought...wow !!! Time to order a new car...;-)
In the end (after being put on the agencies waiting line for some month...but staying tough)
I could achieve a price of 1000 Euros for polishing up their "figurehead",
I guess that´s less than what ONE of their players earns for running around one single hour...
(I had to work 2-3 days...but ok, I had fun to do it)
According to that fee table, which allegedly is the basic for thousands of designers, this
job should have been payed with several thousand Euros more....
according to the class of client and to their international use of the logo and so on.

Hm... did you ever try to tell a normal client about copyrights and rights of use ???
The prices coming out of that fee tables normaly are in regions making you wear a
crash helmet when handing the offer to your client...;-)
But they may be of help as well just for their calculation system...just feel free to replace
this 70 Euro-factor....(by the way they are also written in english)

Being an autodidact who has never worked in a studio, for me the biggest problem is to
estimate the time I need to do a job. And more important...being able to set it in a relation
to that time a experienced pro would need to do it.
So for me it`s very interesting to read how much time you need for certain jobs, like
"standard" flying logo as mentioned above or other jobs.
The main question I have when surfing through EI gallery (f.i.) is:
Hej...how long did it take to do this or that job...?
The rate per hour which is used to multiplicate that number to get a price finally may
then depend on several factors, which every designer should set up for himself.

All in all this business thing feels like swimming in the middle of nowhere without
compass and swimming belt.
Sure, besides that point there are some more problems when working in 3D.
But better I don`t list them up here...you never know where your clients are surfing ;-)))

Cheers
Tom

[AVTPro]

I have been wanting to see a thread like this for 10 years.
I haven't read it yet but by one of the post by Scott, this is one of the values in community postings.

Sometimes I asked Jens, and Tomas for help on pricing. They have steered me in the right direction. I always am very fair to freelancers according to the money I am alotted and the intensity of the work. Sometimes they make more on a project than I do. The next modeling job I have I will be offering more money/better pay.

I am also very service oriented and try to get a good, comfortable professional relationship with the people I work with.

Wow, the banner on this page is more than ironic. "Reduce animation budget by sending work to China". Folks has to be realize that "high tech jobs " are being shipped over seas for lower wages. Pricing is dynamic, but "sharpening the saw" can keep you working.

My clients as more and more advanced technologies and I am happy to work and learn.

[AVTPro]

I am aware of the "formula" for deriving an hourly but I doubt if the client I had when I was in NYC would pay it. I have since lowered my living expenses but still generally charge by the project.

I have done rigs from $700 to $9,000.

Depends on the program/quality/complexity, budget and time. All very huge variants. And a full maya character rig...I don't even know if it makes economic sense. Facial rigging alone...is so time consuming. I even heard professional film people spending more than 8 weeks for just "skinning" one character. That has to be over $20K. I can see why film cost over millions to produce. I would prefer to have an artist who just "skins" and one to do the "skeleton".

Rigging is far more complex than I originally understood and really 10k for a heavy Maya rig, is still a bath if you ask me. You are doing work but you are not making a profit. Unless is a big agency, it's difficult to get higher rates. I would like to move away from rigging into more artistic. Maybe modeling, design or character animation.

Rigging takes so much time and effort to learn, no one project can compensate what you put in. And no project is the same. TSM/set up machine is probably the best way to go. I won't even mention MEL scripting. (that's not artistic at all)

Modeling seem to be getting cheaper and cheaper, and the modeling software is getting better and better. So are the artist.

I had some REALLY GREAT modelers on my last project. And they didn't charge me much. But they were REALLY FAST. They enjoy "honing" their skills while making a buck.

I"m going to have more of that kind of work from my "Major Cool EI Producer Friend" in January with better prices. As long as we do better work than the guys overseas we we are good.

Let me add, Rigs I have done for 10K others wouldn't touch for less that 50K. Problem is, the Web has a bad stigma as compared to TV. So the same rig if it were for TV would cost 10times as much as it cost on the for a website.

Animation, I always try to work by the hour, but there's are a lot of GREAT ANIMATORS so I have very low animation fees. I would rather pay someone to animate than do it myself. Everyone wants to be an animator. It's the GLORY GIG to say you animated a movie character. They are the stars of 3D movies.

Quite honestly, true film quality rigging is a rarity, and I don't think it happens for most of the stuff on TV. I think it's "just enough" to make the shot rigs. I have talked about this with other CA riggers and rigging a high level rig just takes too long unless it's a "Personal" film character.

Generally by the time the rig is done, youre so burnt out, you have to have animators, if you want to finish a project on time. To model, rig, animate, then render IMO...just isn't worth it on a deadline. You might as well pick out a "Rehab Center" before you are done. You have to have a team for production that kind of production.

[futagoza]

Wow, the banner on this page is more than ironic. "Reduce animation budget by sending work to China". Folks has to be realize that "high tech jobs " are being shipped over seas for lower wages. Pricing is dynamic, but "sharpening the saw" can keep you working.


Not to be off-topic here, but i always wondered why this topic here at CGTalk was never discussed due to the fact that software like Maya, Max, Vray etc. costs a fortune when the average income in China is about US$250 to $400 a month in the wealthiest areas. And when you search ebay China those softwares cost there offically only about 40 bucks, last time i´ve checked. So IMHO those advertisements should be banned here at CGTalk to protect interest of non-chinese artists and companies. Don´t get me wrong here i like China and it´s people, but folks should keep an eye on this issue too, when it comes to globalisation and global competition.

Regards
Stefan

[AVTPro]

yes, the add says China on CGTALK!! That's JIVE !!! ha.

Yes, Globalization is strictly an issue of economics. I'm not very fond of the fact that "Lucas Singapore" isn't so concerned about "Made in the USA" prices or talent either. With the obvious economic crunch, shipping "High Tech" jobs out of the USA can't be good for the stock market either. it's funny when the free trade agreements for NAFTA (?) went down, we were told it's only "manual factory work". That was bull. I get solicited by India all the time.

It's a catch 22 because, a lot of CG people do have commanding expertise that does warrant higher budgets. They won't work for what can be done with overseas...nor should they. Still you always, only get what you pay for.

[Jens C. Möller]

Very interesting observations and questions, Tom.


(f.e. "SDSt/AGD collective agreement on fees for design services", www.agd.de).
This fee tables are based on 70Euro per hour and refer to the fees for design work
(2D, also 3D meanwhile as far as I know) including the assignment of rights of use (as it should be !).Tom

My experience is, if you tell your client you charge according to the "SDSt/AGD collective agreement on fees for design services", and your are NOT a star designer - they'll show you the door emediately. My feeling is, that this guides are made by high profile "experts" like ad agency chefs, design professors, creative directors, and other people who are great in theory but not the ones who lie in the trench at the front line.

...yeah, and the "rights" quesion... My newest client actually read my "terms of business (AGBs)" which needs to be included in each offer you do to a client - at least, its always better to do so. And in this terms is a paragraph that states that the use of my work is non exclusive, and should only be used in context of the actual production (there is no word there about national or international use or anything, just this small paragraph.) End of story: "We are used to get ALL rights excusive for the material for all time, regardless of context and broadcast ranges and any futher sub-licensing." At least I was able to exclude my working files from the contract - they stay mine - "only" all rights for the images and animations.

Am I dumb? No. Its just, that the whole "rights" aspect is absolutely poorly regulated by trade laws. And in the end the clients - at least the high profile clients - Know very well about the value of the rights because they actually make their business with exactly that. (Look Star Wars - Do you think that the guy wo designed the stromtrooper helmet has seen aynthing else than his salary or fixed charge? if the guy would get 1¢ for each reproduced and sold stormtrooper helmet... Well, I guess this cent goes to George :)

Its just again a question of your "value" - since, there are 10 good people in the queue behind you, who would sell their mother for $500 just to make the Logo. So, take it, or leave it. If you take it than that is your value.

Fotografers btw. are still not treated like we 3D guys. A fotograf is mainly accepted as an image with "rights" to the fotografer. But even here - We have a food fotografer in our backyard. He had to close his studio, because when his clients need a nice image of - say - a Lassagne, they surf the web and in minutes they have 250 nice images of Lassagne form big image libraries for a bargain or even royalty free. So, even here people can less and less claim rights. If you are Helmut Newton its of course another story.


All in all this business thing feels like swimming in the middle of nowhere without
compass and swimming belt.
Tom

Yes, its a tough business, and there are no guidlines, just experience, reading, hearing talking about it and of course doing it. If you are able to make your living with what you do, you are fine.

Jens

Edit: "THEY" have simply the better attorneys ;)

[WHD]

Hi All,

Interesting posts indeed. I have read some of the posts here and have experienced many of the things others have written about. Living in the Washington DC area is a bit of a surreal experience for a commercial artist. If you are not a lawyer, lobbiest or have some government job one is looked at as sort of a freak here. At my kids scholl I hear in response to "I'm an artist" word like " that sound like lots of fun".

I have worked here since the early 80s and have worked in a number of different fields and still do. People in the creative fields are almost always at the bottom of the food chain. I could fill 50 pages with stories both my own and of people I know about working in creative fields. Some would be funny but most are about how people in creative fields are often viewed as not having real "serious" jobs. I have even been lectured by clients 10+ years my junior about having to pay my dues when explaining why they only want to pay me a small percentage of what I'm estimating on a job. The really sad thing is that on average creative earnings per job today are about the same as they were 20 years ago. I find that the reason I survive in the industry is that computers are faster and digital cameras cost less to operate than their film counterparts, so what used to be billed in expenses are now to a greater extent labor fees that help cover the increasing cost of living.

An example would be 2 magazine covers.

Budget of a Cover job I shot in 1986 for ICT was $1,500.00

Budget of a Cover job I finished last week for the National Journal was $1,500.00

The difference was the ITC cover was shot on 4X5 film with real objects. My expenses were probably around $500.00.+ overhead from studio $250.00 based on $1000.00 per month rent. total expenses $750.00. Time to complete about 1 week.

The National Journal cover was assembled mostly in the computer with stock provided by the client and digital imaging. My expenses electricity and monthly overhead divided by 30 equals about $77.00 Time to complete 2 days.

Also as Jens has mentioned rights management has gone down the toilet. In photgraphy this has happened also. I see this as being due in part to the cheap stock images that appeared in the 1990s on CDs. Most agencies around here spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on stock CDs and shortly there after most of the assignment work dissapeared from commercial photography the area where I earned most of my living between 1986 and 1999. Now people can get images on line for free or a few dollars and some people use that as a negotiating point. Then again if they could find the right image amongst their stock collection they wouldn't be calling me. Clients today demand full ownership of the work that I do and some even have contracts that include words like anything that was used in the process of making the product also belongs to the company. I do not sign these since these vague terms could be interpreted to mean almost anything including my personal stock libraries, models ,software, computers, studio, and of course I'm part of the creative process as well. :-) I'm told that everyone else just signs these but I will not!

As if dealing with hard core negotiating tactics were not enough now the US Congress has this "Orphaned Bill Act" to further degrade an artist ability to protect and profit from their own work and it looks as if it may place the burden and costs on the artist to among other things prove that their work has value.

I still get work in commercial photography but it represents a much smaller percentage of income these days since the bread and butter work is mostly gone. I'm lucky to have a very flexible skillset since I have worked as a visual effects generalist, prop and model builder, backdrop painter, cameraman, commercial photographer, digital illustrator and retoucher, and animator over the years. Every job is totally different but the same issues exist in all the fields .I think that to a great extent it boils down to people not understanding that creative work is real work. That every job is to some extent a one of a kind prototype and that costs money to make.

Regarding rates I would have to say it is what the market and the client will tolerate. I have done animations at a rate of $500.00 per running second and I have worked for a small fraction of that. Some jobs pay $100.00 and some pay $50,000.00. I think the average job pays about $1,200.00 to $2500.00 per week when averaged over time. I of course do not have paid work every day and in fact some times I go for as long as a month or more without work when things are dead. After 22 years of freelance work the dead times still freak me out .

I used to joke that at least I make more than a public school teacher. NEWS FLASH... I just read last week that public school teacher salaries are now topping the $100,000.00 mark in this area with some that earn as much as $135,000.00.

I guess I can't say that anymore.

Speaking of saying anymore. Stop me before I write again!

Bill

[AVTPro]

WHD, thanks for the post and insight. I always enjoyed your work and really have a great professional work. You really been around long enough to know what you are doing.

[AVTPro]

http://www.vfxtalk.com/forum/cost-roto-artist-t17448.html?t=17448

[mike33]

Out of curiousity... what are you all doing in other art forms to support your CG work that helps with your "most Challenging aspects of CG"?

I've been working on sketching in moleskins, mostly out of my head type of stuff with a focus on perspective. Rolling into 2009 I plan to shift into sketching more from life, with the focus on perspective, light, shadow and reflection.

This work is to help with concepting faster, composition, and eventual better lighting setups.

TGIF, cheers...

Mike

[WHD]

Hi Alonzo

First let me say thanks for the compliments. From what I've seen the majority of EI users are doing amazing work. I'm always impressed by your character work and rigging skills. Most of all your generosity with your time and caring spirit. That comment also applies to a number of other EI users who share their time and expertise to help others. I wish that I had more time to give back but things here are often crazed with deadlines or with trying to drum up enough work to pay the bills.

Alonzo, your last posted link was a bit scary. $6 per day in india. The end of that thread really hit the nail on the head though. It comes down to the cost of living in your area that contributes to what one must charge. I often base my rates upon what I need to earn per month divided by time projected to complete the job. I then add a little on top to cover down time and if the job is a rush. I also have to add in a little for some clients who want to negotiate so that I can cut something to make them happy and not cut my throat in the process. At one time I gave actual prices and people assumed that I was marking it up so now I do. I then factor in things like the schedule and what type of client is it. A TYPE A client who always wants me to jump on command will get a higher rate since I will not be able to work on other jobs simultaineously during their project. A long term slow paced project over several months can often allow for other small jobs to be fit in so I can give a more competitive rate. There are lots of factors.

I did actually have a co-worker who's client said can you match a price for animation from India but my co-worker told them that they should go ahead and do go to India for the job. They went with my co-worker anyway because she was local , convenient and reliable. I have yet to loose a job to India but it does figure into what the perceived cost of work should be.

After re-reading my last post I wanted to clarify one thing as it might be misinterpreted. The National Journal is a great company and in my last post did not intend to imply that they are tough negotiators. Editorial rates are to some extent standardized so NJ are just falling within that standard that usually sits between $1000 and $2500 for covers in this area. I have seen covers as low as $300. The point of the cover comment was just to show how little rates have changed in 20 + years and not to single out that client. they just happened to be the last cover I worked on.

I bought a new car around 1986 for around $9.000.00 a similar new car today costs around $30,000.00. If I applied that to creative rates ... Well you can see where I'm going here.

By my count I have 49 pages left to go on this topic. :-)

Bill

[scottfox]

Wow, that india stuff is kind of scary. Now if I were smart, I would find a really good animator from over there and have him do most of my work, just mark up his $6 a day rate
and "work little and retire young" :). These animators arent just for hire by our potential clients, there for hire by us small businesses and individuals as well.

Im not there yet. But I cant listen to any of us complain about the global market place.
In the US we pride ourselves on our abilities to adapt and innovate. Work smarter.
If India or whatever, truly becomes a real world impact to our day in and day out abilities
to secure clients, then, we adapt. Luckily the best creative decision ive made in my career
came 2 years ago when I decided to move to Los Angeles. The creative community is number ONE out here as far as respect goes. Actors and artists of all types are all in it together out here. Anyone that could make the move here, I would highly recommend it.
Its amazing how just going to dinner or a movie, as you run across various people it seems as if 75% of them do something related to the entertainment industry. Its so cool.
Just washing my car ive run into some 'Sopranos' actors and numerous other celebs. Now that I have my iphone and can put my reel on it, sure makes for LOTS of impromptu
sales opportunities around here, (not with actors obviously).

Back in Chicago and Milwaukee, running across another creative was a rare experience.

Even at my first thanksgiving dinner with friends here in LA, I met an editer\effects guy who works at the Trailer Park.

relationships and quality are still very important in all of this.

[scottfox]

Oh, and I wanted to respond to something that may not be politically correct to someone, but its true. The Chinese people, COOL :) The Chinese Government can go F themselves
and there communistic control of their people. All people on our planet should be free to make there own way in life.

And their own graphics and animation :) (at least my post here references something creative :)

[ediris]

Mmm... there is no way of living like you want , there is always somebody above you determine what your life should be like, that is why i have moved from place to place looking for that freedom we all want in our lives.
Is inside of us no gov is gonna tell you what to do but you should have the power of determined what life you choose and how to live it, i have chosen to move to Asia and see you someo ther time EUROPE. Low salaries is all over the world my friend. I am working as freelancer in Singapore and travelling for cheap. That is the life i have chosen for me .

[scottfox]

Edgard, maybe im blind, but Im free to do whatever I want here in the USA. I can speak my mind freely, I can practice my religion freely, I can protest things without fear of government retribution. Were STILL the number one place in the world where more people are trying to GET IN, than get out. No matter what others think of us.

I wish you the best my friend, you seem like a great guy. The places you have been to and seen sound exciting to me, even if im afraid to do it myself. :)

I think places like China and Iran are trying to even limit or eliminate internet usage. They dont want their people to see what the rest of the world is talking about.

as always, good luck and happiness to you.

[ediris]

Oh China maybe too dangerous for me, but one of the only places where is safe to be in Asia is Singapore. If you go around Asia and you do not know any Chinese or any Malaysian you can get in a lot of trouble,people speak very little English here. But i needed some influences some other life to open up my imagination and creativity and hopefully be a better professional i have got a job here in a month and a lot of other freelance jobs that i could not handle due of time.

I hope this helps me in my motivation and innovation of designs.This is my most challenging aspect of CG.

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