I hope Newtek isn't next to sell

[TheRetiredSailor]

I bought Lightwave out of my own pocket and I'm using it at home as a hobby. Personally, I can't afford Autodesk's upgrade schedule that I see at work with their CAD products. I am in IT and support engineers who use AutoCAD and Inventor. Autodesk seems to want everyone to upgrade yearly with a given product being no longer elligable for upgrade after as little as 2 years.

Do they do that with the 3D products as well?

[Bucket]

There are other companies that would better fit AD's quest for world domination. Guys rest assured, no one is going to buy Newtek.

[-mindcache-]

It's Cinema 4d, Lightwave and who else isn't owned by Autodesk.

SideFX Houdini.

[RobertoOrtiz]

Also Luxology, Pixologic and the 300 pound Gorilla named Adobe..

[Cageman]

Guys rest assured, no one is going to buy Newtek.

Interresting...

What do you base that on?

[INFINITE]

Maybe it might be a good thing? More marketting and exposure? better rigging and animating tools?

*ducks and runs for cover*

[ThirdEye]

Interresting...

What do you base that on?

On the fact that, like it or not, Lightwave is no serious competitor to anyone at the moment, especially from a financial pov.

[INFINITE]

On the fact that, like it or not, Lightwave is no serious competitor to anyone at the moment, especially from a financial pov.

Although it can produce far superior results to most other packages ; )

[Niklas Collin]

Newtek is also privately owned so it can't be sold if the board of Newtek doesn't approve it. Makes buying a company that much harder to do.

And remember guys - it is very unlikely that Autodesk bought Softimage because of XSI. It was Facerobot they were after - that was something they didn't have already in their product arsenal. Everything else was just a bonus for them in my honest opinion. If you look at the situation that way then we can all see that Newtek and Lightwave won't be next in the line.

[ThirdEye]

Although it can produce far superior results to most other packages ; )

Happy it works for you :)

[INFINITE]

Happy it works for you :)

Cheers, and many others too :buttrock:

Newtek is also privately owned so it can't be sold if the board of Newtek doesn't approve it. Makes buying a company that much harder to do.

I wasnt aware of that, I suppose in a way that might be a good thing.

[CtrlAltDel]

well... back in '94 i remember watching the owners posing in front of their brand new, 2 similar-looking Honda NXS in a tv programme about video toaster... OOT :)

The point is, everything is for sale, if the price is right and as long as people still like what money can buy.

On the other hand, IMHO SunTzu won't agree with the strategy of buying Newtek either.

[tburbage3]

Although it can produce far superior results to most other packages ; )

I don't think the results LW can produce are necessarily far superior, given LW in the hands of an experienced artist vs. app X in the hands of an equally experienced artist with that app.

LW's advantage (we claim) is that an experienced LW artist will do so in general at significantly lower cost -- less time to produce those results, and far lower cost to maintain their software investment. And with a lot more flexibility from a licensing standpoint. I'm hoping this will only become more obvious (assuming LW doesn't radically change their business/licensing model) as the overall strength of the app improves.

[softdistortion]

rofLoL...According to this insider video of AD discussions on XSI aquisition it seems LW might be safe for now.
(Warning Coarse Langauge used)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kR7UWImpG54

[CtrlAltDel]

haha that's a good one, would that makes Newtek similar to the guerilla insurgents hiding in the pine forrest carying badass stick grenades?

[RobertoOrtiz]

Good one.

Pass the ammo.
-R

[Limbus]

On the fact that, like it or not, Lightwave is no serious competitor to anyone at the moment, especially from a financial pov.

I guess NewTek then raised the price of LW after 9.0 was released because sales are so bad.

[Cageman]

On the fact that, like it or not, Lightwave is no serious competitor to anyone at the moment, especially from a financial pov.

That really depends on how you see it...

Sure, LW lacks a bunch of features that other packages have, on the flipcoin, it seems to be a perfect tool for Zoic and several other studios to produce VFX for both TV and Feature Film... and it does it in a fraction of the cost of many of the other tools...

Cheap but still powerful...of course..powerful only in the right hands...

[ThirdEye]

That really depends on how you see it...

I see it that it has been a zombie for so many years it wasn't even funny anymore. You can try to look at it the way you want, but this app has been so close to death that some time will have to pass before people give it a real chance again.

[Cageman]

I see it that it has been a zombie for so many years it wasn't even funny anymore.

Uhm...

Yeah... Right... for you, I'm quite sure... for those who know how to use it... I'm not so sure...

[ThirdEye]

Uhm...

Yeah... Right... for you, I'm quite sure... for those who know how to use it... I'm not so sure...

Yeah, i'm sure those who know how to use it were sooo happy that Newtek lost all its programmers and the development of Lightwave has been stalling for so many years before they found someone else.

[Cageman]

Yeah, i'm sure those who know how to use it were sooo happy that Newtek lost all its programmers and the development of Lightwave has been stalling for so many years before they found someone else.

Many, if not even all, of the programmers currently working on LW started with LW8.5.

Only when the old programmers left, LW have moved forward.

Whatever happened has been good for everyone, both for the developers of Modo and for LightWave customers.

So, your point was..?

[RobertoOrtiz]

Whatever happened has been good for everyone, both for the developers of Modo and for LightWave customers.


You are right...
I did a couple of interviews in the summer with the New Dev team in the summer and they are quite exited.

[fez]

Lightwave may have lost momentum after the Modo debacle but it is being used in broadcast by smaller stations and studios all over the country. If I were outfitting a small 1-3 man studio with one piece of software for fast turnaround of broadcast animations and money was no object I would still suggest Lightwave/Fprime.

I even like the direction they are taking the CA development.

[Cageman]

You are right...
I did a couple of interviews in the summer with the New Dev team in the summer and they are quite exited.

Sounds interresting... I saw the interview with Jay and Jerrod. Have you interviewed more developers from NT?

[RobertoOrtiz]

Sounds interresting... I saw the interview with Jay and Jerrod. Have you interviewed more developers from NT?
Yes but, but off the record.
-R

[Cageman]

Yes but, but off the record.
-R

Ok... so, that means that they will not be released at all?

Damn... now you've teased me... *lol*

[ThirdEye]

Many, if not even all, of the programmers currently working on LW started with LW8.5.

Only when the old programmers left, LW have moved forward.

Whatever happened has been good for everyone, both for the developers of Modo and for LightWave customers.

So, your point was..?

Nevermind.

[INFINITE]

from an older thread

Then drop whatever package your using for modeling and rendering and start using a real software for real men (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=47&t=590642&page=1&pp=15) :D

Lightwave is for the big boys my friend. It just takes some practice and since version 8 + things have been getting better and better. Lightwaves skin shader for one ;) So the 'new'tek team have been doing wonders recently, especialy with the inclusion of Hair/FX and the nodal shader system and extra nodes..

All we need now is abit more integration with Fprime and some rigging tools and lightwave will be set :beer:

[jay3dlinux]

I think modo team is good at bells and whistles and adding one feature each 10 years,

why all this advertising around modo modeler that it's a copy of LW modeler (and not even as complete), and when LW modeler was around it didn't get that much ad?

Mr. Peebler is good in making ads but not good software (just look at the nodes shader system in LW and compare it with shader tree in modo, it's really lame)

[ThirdEye]

Lightwave is for the big boys my friend.

Personally i don't give a damn if it's the best or the worst piece of sw ever. As i already said whatever works for you is fine.

[Mike Pauza]

I second that this could be good for NewTek.

It actually helps their "rebel marketing" and might spur them into more "real development". For example, if V10 came with a kicking new animation system, sculpting/painting, a realtime renderer, and some well conceived marketing, people would simply go nuts IMO.

-Mike

[Limbus]

Yeah, i'm sure those who know how to use it were sooo happy that Newtek lost all its programmers and the development of Lightwave has been stalling for so many years before they found someone else.

Well, that was some years ago. LW 9 came out in 2006 and the development is on full speed since then.

I dont really get why you even bother to post in this thread except for trolling. Something that some C4D users seem to enjoy in this LW forum.

[Cageman]

I dont really get why you even bother to post in this thread except for trolling. Something that some C4D users seem to enjoy in this LW forum.

Well, one can only guess the reasons or the agenda. I'm more worried that ThirdEye is a Forum Leader (moderator).

[bearfoot]

Personally i don't give a damn if it's the best or the worst piece of sw ever. As i already said whatever works for you is fine.


to b honest alberto i expected a slightly different attitude from a forum leader..

a slanging match about the software in the very thread that's used to promote it doesn't really seem right to me..it doesn't do any favours for us or you and really doesn't seem to uphold the very high standards that the forum leaders have always displayed..

peace
n

[proton]

Alberto has been LW bashing for years...why would he stop now?

[softdistortion]

to b honest alberto i expected a slightly different attitude from a forum leader..

a slanging match about the software in the very thread that's used to promote it doesn't really seem right to me..it doesn't do any favours for us or you and really doesn't seem to uphold the very high standards that the forum leaders have always displayed..

peace
n
"Always displayed"?? lol...they aren't all smiles and chocolates. Wait till you have a run in or 2 with some of the more crusty mods. :D

[RobertoOrtiz]

Be nice guys...

Ok guys, lets get back on topic...
:)

I wonder if as a result of this sale, we will see a tighter integration among the surviving apps?
They would be Luxology, Project Messiah,Houdini, Blender,Pixologic and who knows even Maxon.

Maybe a strategic partnership with a big company (like ADOBE) is in order for everyone who is not under the control of Autodesk.

-R

[Mike Pauza]

IMO "SEAMLESS INTEGRATION" with leading DCC apps (Photoshop, After Effects, and ZBrush), solid support of 3D data exchange formats, and "RADICAL 3D CARD OPTIMIZATION" of LW would gain NT tons of new users. Buying Messiah & FPrime wouldn't hurt either. :)

There's nothing inherently evil about Autodesk buying Softimage, but such acquisitions are all about trying to control the market to maximixe income, not about making customers happy.
The "fatter" Autodesk becomes, the less responsive they will be to give customers what they want, and more opportunity companies like NewTek will have.

-Mike

[RobertoOrtiz]

IMO "SEAMLESS INTEGRATION" with leading DCC apps (Photoshop, After Effects, and ZBrush), solid support of 3D data exchange formats, and "RADICAL 3D CARD OPTIMIZATION" of LW would gain NT tons of new users. Buying Messiah & FPrime wouldn't hurt either. :)


-Mike

Amen!
One of the least publicized things that Newtek has done a part of their 9x release is their expansion of the support of other 3D formats..(Collada, FBX and OBJ I/O)

A tighter integration with most of the ADOBE DCC tools would help them a lot (Illustrator, Photoshop,In-Desing, After Effects).

The Graphics Design market IS HUGE, it is dominated by Adobe, but this market needs a reasonable priced/ easy to use 3d app.

Adobe is bigger than Autodesk so they are not going nowhere.
Not only that they are serious about making 3d a significant part of their pipeline...

This a niche market that has a HUGE user base. This is the direction we should be taking.

[Gitch]

Maybe you people should check this out rather then speculate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5zYnjdQ8J0&feature=related

[RobertoOrtiz]

edited...
sugar rush after lunch..
please ignore
Glitch I feel like a horses ass. My apologies.

-R

[Cageman]

edited...
sugar rush after lunch..
please ignore
Glitch I feel like a horses ass. My apologies.

-R

*LOL* :)

Way before Rendition a really cool feature popped up in LW (during 8.x if I'm not misstaken).

PSD exporter... takes all buffers and generates a PSD with all buffers loaded as layers...

THAT is sweet like sugar! :)

[Darth Mole]

I've been using LW since 5.6 on Mac. I love it. Easy to learn, loads of bang-per-buck, great output.

But I didn't always love it. When Allen Hastings, Stuart Ferguson et al were busy adding features that were broken and that no-one could be bothered to de-bug, it was a nightmare. From LW 6 to 8, it was pretty much a crock 'o shit. But since then it's been getting better and better.

I have modo 302 and it's still buggy, with weird behaviour and oddnesses that annoy. I suspect modo will be the new LightWave - endless new features but a lengthening trail of bugs behind it.

I had C4D but gave up on it. Modelling is rubbish and it's WAY too expensive for what it offers - couldn't afford the upgrades so flogged it on ebay in the end.

So, here we are. I've stuck with LW through thick and thin and it just keeps improving. The team behind is dedicated, talented and rigorous. I do believe Jay and co. will make this the most feature-rich and stable version of LW there has ever been. So whatever happens in the big, bad world out there, I for one hope LW continues to be my 3D app of choice.

[MooseDog]

the advantages in the marketplace always fall to the small, nimble innovator, especially the software battleground, and especially a niche market like 3d. think american rebels vs. british empire, or vietcong vs. american empire.

with a strong and very! active development team producing an unending stream of bug fixes and features, while concurrently re-writing the core, newtek and lightwave are well placed to out maneuver the behemoths and bring real value to their customers. imho natch:D

[Nemoid]

it is always like that.:)

The big behemoth scares all for some time, then it implodes upon itself : its just too big to be innovative.

Usually smart ideas come from small companies, so this is the right time for Newtek to just start innovating.

[3DDave]

Unfortunalty they need to start from scratch again like they did with 6.0. 9.X has not turned out like they said it would. There is no modeling in Layout, the character animation system is still years behind what Softimage or Maya had 10 years ago! Viewport speed is still very slow and they think merging 3rd. party software is innovation.

I have owned LW since 5.6 and still do up to 9.5. Also XSI essentials since 4.0 and up to 5.1.

[RobertoOrtiz]

David you are right, and I am the first in line to compain about the animation tools in LW, but I feel strongly that I like the direction they are taking the program.

But I do have one big wish. More openenss of the application.


I think the direction the industry is moving is more towards openss.

I would move away from the plug-ins and more towards tools that allow the easy creation of application components by the user base.

Tools that do not require a degree in computer science to develop and are accesible to 3rd party scripting programs like Python

[Nemoid]

I think the new tool can do well! We all know Lw weak point is in animation, but they're starting to update the tools (joint bones, pole vector and more ).
BTW i'd like a more radical and innovative evolution of the app, with modeler and layout integration, modelling toolset consolidation, and lots of features,and yes , more opennes.

maybe we'll start to see something going in this direction in release 10 ?

[INFINITE]

I know this isnt really a features thread but imagine the integration of some kind of proper fluid particles system? ( I know it has been said before ) but true Hypervoxels support in FPRIME!if they can crack this the fun would really begin!

I also remember ages ago back in LW 4,5 or 6 cant quite remember, a really cool little plugin that had a box tricks to allow you to customise lens glows and lens flares of all shapes and sizes, things for water glistening, halos for Space ship engine flares. Cant remember its name but it was ace. This kind of support in FPRIME as well would be amazing. ( Just remembered I think it was called Genesis or something )

Let alone true G2 to FPRIME support for rendering out layers! being able to split the renders into segments on export, like just diffuse, just relfection, just SSS etc

Perhaps Worley and Newtek join together and long last! Hey they bought up Jon Tindal and FiberFX.

The list goes on.

[softdistortion]

heheh...or NT could follow ADs lead and start buying up other companys/apps.
Blender for fluids, Messiah for CA, Worley for Fprime....
3D Coat for paint and Sculpting...oh and PLG, or better yet, UVlayout for unwrapping.

[HarverdGrad]

heheh...or NT could follow ADs lead and start buying up other companys/apps.
Blender for fluids, Messiah for CA, Worley for Fprime....
3D Coat for paint and Sculpting...oh and PLG, or better yet, UVlayout for unwrapping.

Exactly the reason why I'm not upgrading my copy of Messiah.
I think it will be bundled in the next version of LW, so why bother?

[RobertoOrtiz]

Exactly the reason why I'm not upgrading my copy of Messiah.
I think it will be bundled in the next version of LW, so why bother?

Keep in mind that there is no confirmation about this....NOWHERE.

[Cageman]

Keep in mind that there is no confirmation about this....NOWHERE.

I wonder if he meant that litteraly?

LW10 may hold new upgrades to the CA-toolset that may rival those found in Messiah...

[tfortier]

Mmm... but lightwave need a new user interface, no doubt. Cant believe its such a pain just loading a plugin and search for it in the GUI... Also they should get few of the great plugin out there and include it in the package, well implemented in the interface. Most plugins just die after few years cause the creator change job or let the website down.

Most serious animators will use high end software anyway but for motion design lightwave still valuable. Just reorganize the damn interface with the current tools and lightwave will get a new life already. Make an official plugins pack hosted on the server (uploaded by the creators, a bit like the free apps for Ipod or G1) with an installer wich place each plugz at the right place and voila! Flay.com is quite a mess, really! 50% of the links are dead. Ease of use is the key to success.

EDIT: And with a damn render passes organizer!!! come on, that one easy... should take a week to code!

[tburbage3]

Perhaps Worley and Newtek join together and long last! Hey they bought up Jon Tindal and FiberFX.

Worley has always been pretty independent, but it would be a great boon to LW if he were to allow his outfit to be purchased by NewTek and he to come on-board as architect or a principal engineer. He definitely understands LW's strengths and weaknesses, but also really knows how to innovate. He's certainly has a vested interest in LW's success.

I suspect he likes being independent, though, so I'm not expecting this to happen. And since FPrime is currently his primary product and only works in LightWave, hard to imagine he would sell it to NewTek unless he plans to get out of the LW plugin business entirely.

[tburbage3]

Tools that do not require a degree in computer science to develop and are accesible to 3rd party scripting programs like Python

I would love to see LW integrate Python and expose its API to Python scripting in the same way that Maya did. It would open up a world of opportunities not possible now. LScript could be left in just for legacy/runtime purposes.

Another wild idea would be to adopt Adobe Flex. Like Python, it is cross-platform, and Flex has the advantage of being built around Flash technology, so creating GUI with it is very easy. A LW Flex plug-in would basically just be a .swf file (or .swc if compiled). While there are good 3rd party GUI-related packages for Python, like wxPython/wxWidgets, they aren't as closely coupled to the language as is the case with Flex/ActionScript.

[fezz]

David you are right, and I am the first in line to compain about the animation tools in LW, but I feel strongly that I like the direction they are taking the program.

But I do have one big wish. More openenss of the application.


I think the direction the industry is moving is more towards openss.

I would move away from the plug-ins and more towards tools that allow the easy creation of application components by the user base.

Tools that do not require a degree in computer science to develop and are accesible to 3rd party scripting programs like Python

Openness is a good thing; it'll help ensure Lightwavea place in more studio pipelines. The big problem here is that the industry isn't moving toward openess, it's already there. Even Blender is years ahead of where Lightwave currently is in that department.

Unfortunately, at this point I think the software itself (Layout) has stagnated to the point where Newtek might only be able to innovate again by throwing the whole app away and rebuilding from scratch. The kind of openness LW really needs is the kind where any user can acess the apps' core functions, something I don't think most plugins come anywhere near being able to do right now.

[Cageman]

Openness is a good thing; it'll help ensure Lightwavea place in more studio pipelines. The big problem here is that the industry isn't moving toward openess, it's already there. Even Blender is years ahead of where Lightwave currently is in that department.

Unfortunately, at this point I think the software itself (Layout) has stagnated to the point where Newtek might only be able to innovate again by throwing the whole app away and rebuilding from scratch. The kind of openness LW really needs is the kind where any user can acess the apps' core functions, something I don't think most plugins come anywhere near being able to do right now.

Exactly... what we have seen with LW9.x series are features that made sense to push onto the current architecture (slightly changed) while a new one is being developed. It is a parallel changeover and intuitivity can only start when the UI has a new design.

The problem NewTek is facing, is the fact that many LW-users don't want things to change too much (I'm not in that category myself). NT have to think about what made LW easy to use as well as making it possible go much deeper if need be. Not as easy as it sounds.

Time will tell though... I personally feel quite hopefull about the future.

[Lino Grandi]

Exactly the reason why I'm not upgrading my copy of Messiah.
I think it will be bundled in the next version of LW, so why bother?

Don't think so...the first reason is that a Mac version of Messiah doesn't exist....so, no Mac, no bundle.

There was that idea sometime ago....but I'm quite sure this is not going to happen.

Anyway....rig tools in LW9.5 have greatly improved, the render is simply stunning and I'm quite sure LW10 is going to show its real muscles!

[coremi]

for me i'd like something like messiah plugins, Autorig and Walker from usefulslug

http://www.usefulslug.com/files/WalkerFeatures.mp4

i find this impressive for small animations, comercials etc......
Big boys can manually rig and do whaterver they want, for small shop this is very perfect :).

They should re-hire the guys from messiah and make a very powerfull LW 10.

[RobertoOrtiz]

Exactly... what we have seen with LW9.x series are features that made sense to push onto the current architecture (slightly changed) while a new one is being developed. It is a parallel changeover and intuitivity can only start when the UI has a new design.

.

One thing that should be mentioned is
Lightwave Rendition...
http://www.newtek.com/rendition/

This is in my opinion a REALLY GOOD idea.
It is a a great way to tease graphic designers, who would not normally use a advance 3d program to upgrade up" to Lightwave.

Here is a review of it
http://www.digitalartsonline.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=10688

[Nemoid]

yeah is not so easy to make an app like Lw to become actually modern!

If what NT is doing is a parallel changeover, this is a good method, because you keep the app in the market until the new/modern one is ready to be unveiled.

However, i totally agree that NT has to think about what makes LW easy for its users, even in building a modern one.

Keep what's good, and throw what's bad or better what doesn't go towards the user.

And rework that.

Modelling workflow, for example, even if it can be streamlined alot giving less tools, but with more options and more real time, gives however a good feedback to the user in many aspects : selections, mesh editing and more. it goes towards the user in many cases and you also can streamline it a bit by yourself reoorganizing the UI.

Layout instead is more difficult to understand/manage in some areas, especially when you get into complexity and division into two packages becomes an annoying obstacle when rigging characters, not to talk about plugins that often can interfere each other.

it is complex to define what a good 3d app should provide to an user , because everyone has different needs depending from what he has to accomplish or depending from what he usually accomplish in everyday work, but the key is ease of use and intuitiveness.


so the key is make the software go towards the user giving him a more fun feeling.

Now, i think that, even with a more modern core, the base philosophy of the app can remain the same; what you actually change is underlying structure of the app, introduce more flexibility though nodal structure and chenge from plugin to scripting allowing to access to all the code has to offer.

Host all the tools under a single environment, so that they are all shared into the whole app and give an organized workflow though layouts organized depending common user needs (modelling, animation, and more).
This wil give users immediate access to the whole toolset while keeping the UI organized.

keep the tools the users use for common tasks more acccessible. Easyness on the surface.

Keep the tools that are thought for complex tasks slightly less accessible.
(Nodal shading is a good example to follow)

introduce things like more realtime tools, drag and drop, more contextual menus to help the user work faster and better.

it is a huge job , but totally possible and with a good foundation you can make the app grow better and better in time.



Exactly... what we have seen with LW9.x series are features that made sense to push onto the current architecture (slightly changed) while a new one is being developed. It is a parallel changeover and intuitivity can only start when the UI has a new design.

The problem NewTek is facing, is the fact that many LW-users don't want things to change too much (I'm not in that category myself). NT have to think about what made LW easy to use as well as making it possible go much deeper if need be. Not as easy as it sounds.

Time will tell though... I personally feel quite hopefull about the future.

[Sbowling]

Autodesk is tryning to take over everything. Cant let that happen.

Could end up like these Mortgage companies.

It's Cinema 4d, Lightwave and who else isn't owned by Autodesk.

If someone wanted to buy LW I'm sure Newtek would sell in a heartbeat. Problem is that NO ONE wants to buy Lightwave.

[INFINITE]

If someone wanted to buy LW I'm sure Newtek would sell in a heartbeat. Problem is that NO ONE wants to buy Lightwave.

How do you know that? and what makes you so sure? :curious:

[bearfoot]

If someone wanted to buy LW I'm sure Newtek would sell in a heartbeat. Problem is that NO ONE wants to buy Lightwave.

err really ?

can u back up your statement with any sort of fact whatsoever ?

thanks
n

[colkai]

Wouldn't waste your time,
SBolwing has never ever had anything polite to say about Newtek & Lightwave, let alone constructive!
Think cave dwelling creature.

[Veehoy]

Maybe we should cut him some slack. Judging by his posts, Sblowings app of choice recently was aquired by Autowreck so he probably needs to blow of some steam :twisted:

[Ulven]

for me i'd like something like messiah plugins, Autorig and Walker from usefulslug

http://www.usefulslug.com/files/WalkerFeatures.mp4

i find this impressive for small animations, comercials etc......
Big boys can manually rig and do whaterver they want, for small shop this is very perfect :).


Thanks! Actually big boys use it them too :)

[Shuggs]

May not be a bad thing honestly. Lightwave needs some serious attention in Animation tools. And they need to go ahead and integrate Modeler and Layout already. It's such a pain having to open the two.

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