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worldofgrim
10-22-2008, 04:56 PM
I got my CG feature in the Hollywood Film Festival. Screening this Friday at 11pm, at the Arclight Cinemas in Hollywood.

Come see how one animator can do it all. And get on the big screen.

More info at www.worldofgrim.com (http://www.worldofgrim.com)

ManuelM
10-23-2008, 01:52 AM
haha - had a look at your website and the trailer: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=qMIobIrJSzw

not sure if i'd be able to sit through a 84 minutes movie of this style.

still hats off for the giant effort of producing a feature all by yourself.

can you tell us more about your next movie
'kung fu girl & panda'

;-)

cheers,
m.

notlongago
10-23-2008, 02:04 AM
This is going to be a hit. I mean I hope it will be!!!

That looks like it was a big undertake.

worldofgrim
10-23-2008, 03:09 AM
if you are quagmired in high end CG, then you probably won't be able to sit through this. ;/

but if you like non stop action, rootin-tootin-shootin, stop motion style creatures & fights, a post apocalyptic world, radioactive viral zombies (TM), mutant rats, giant crabs, ogres battling humies... non-stop hardcore techno, etc... in a video game style of course... well why the heck not!?

i was going after the low budget sci-fi, zombie, and fantasy schlock at your local vid store, NOT trying to compete with Pixar, Lucasfilms, Dreamworks, or even high end games.

i just wanted to make something goofy and fun i could watch... and literally over and over and over. and i can't wait to see on the big screen!

Hooch
10-23-2008, 06:05 AM
Was that Lara Croft Cousin!? :D

Anyway if you did all the work, I have to give you credits for your effort Mate! :beer:

monkeysweat
10-23-2008, 06:49 AM
I'd like to say congrats on doing what i've never had the nerve to try.

I hope not to come off as a high and mighty prick, but i've got to give some crits, and I assume others will also.

Please notice that I consider myself only a hobbiest, and don't even have a portfolio on cg talk.

Take what I say with a huge grain of salt, and my appologies.

I can only imagine the time and effort that went into a feature length show, and the idea that you did it on your own is very inspiring.

That said, I must admit that I find it very bad on most levels. The models, the animation, lighting, the effects, etc. It really hurts me to say such things, when I know you must have poured alot of youself into it.

Take pride in the fact that you did what so many have only talked about, but maybe you could polish up your skills for the next one. Keep working, cause you seem to have the balls for this work, just not the eye.

STANER
10-23-2008, 07:38 AM
I'd like to say congrats on doing what i've never had the nerve to try.

I hope not to come off as a high and mighty prick, but i've got to give some crits, and I assume others will also.

Please notice that I consider myself only a hobbiest, and don't even have a portfolio on cg talk.

Take what I say with a huge grain of salt, and my appologies.

I can only imagine the time and effort that went into a feature length show, and the idea that you did it on your own is very inspiring.

That said, I must admit that I find it very bad on most levels. The models, the animation, lighting, the effects, etc. It really hurts me to say such things, when I know you must have poured alot of youself into it.

Take pride in the fact that you did what so many have only talked about, but maybe you could polish up your skills for the next one. Keep working, cause you seem to have the balls for this work, just not the eye.


I agree with you monkeysweat, but it would take him 10years to finish his film if he would try to achieve pixar's quality.


worldofgrim: I would say quality over quantity:deal:
I think if you could create 5-10min short from this movie with good quality it would be awesome.

worldofgrim
10-23-2008, 07:47 AM
hmmm... i could spend a week modeling a hi-res model, or that same week getting 1 minute of animation done. and if i'm lucky, in 52 weeks i'll have 52 minutes of animation.
(btw, Pixar does several frames a week of animation)

i did 60 minutes in 6 months.

which includes modeling, lighting, layout, camera work, rigging, etc... oh then edit, sound, score.

if you are comparing me to single images done here on cg society or to Pixar... you shouldn't do that. you should compare me to sci-fi, horror, and creature features whose budgets or charm are in the 500k budget or less. story or not, ingeniuty or not. i mean of all the Harryhausen films, the Godzilla films, Ralph Bakshi's rotoscoping, Rankin-Bass, there were many flaws, shortcuts, yet great fun films to watch.

its wierd, i keep getting compared to 'the Incredibles' and i blink in astonishment.

worldofgrim
10-23-2008, 07:51 AM
I agree with you monkeysweat, but it would take him 10years to finish his film if he would try to achieve pixar's quality.

worldofgrim: I would say quality over quantity:deal:
I think if you could create 5-10min short from this movie with good quality it would be awesome.

Actually that's the goal of every major & mini studio, every boutique, and every student. An exquisite short, to be developed into a 30+ million dollar movie.

I decided, you all are doing that in droves and just fine. Why not one guy, doing something different, full of action, non-stop pulse pounding goof ball fun?

ManuelM
10-23-2008, 07:56 AM
Why not one guy, doing something different, full of action, non-stop pulse pounding goof ball fun?

I don't think anyone here has any problems with that. It's just that most folks here value quality higher than quantity so don't be offended by some comments. I think most people made it clear that they have a lot of respect for you completing this giant effort.

worldofgrim
10-23-2008, 08:11 AM
i understand.

i just want to open up this cg society to something so much more fun & rewarding.

cg society seems to focus on craftsmanship and landing work. but the time is now for:

showmanship, and loud blasting sounds, and friends guffawing and snickering on your couch, and film festivals with big screens and distributors sending over contracts and requesting screeners, and sales agents, and, and, and... and one day...

and dont you all get it, if you do an exquisite short, and get funding, you are owned by them. and must do what they want. dont you see, my way, the ronmethod, is crazy fun, liberating, and when distributors want to try and sale it, they want to sale it as is, as something i created alone. and thusly, i get to do the next 'whatever i want'.

so get busy cg folks, do it yourself, for yourself, but just make sure its fun & entertaining in some crazy way.

and oh, i like sci-fi, fantasy, hardcore action, zombies, rough hewn fight sequences, creatures, big creatures and dark scenery... so you have to stick wtih that too! it's the ronmethod (tm) :)

again, my films playing this Friday, at the Hollywood Film Festival, Oct 24, 11pm, Arclight Cinemas. (so some one liked it!)

Pyke
10-23-2008, 08:15 AM
Hey man-firstly congrats on creating a full length feature! Well done!

I agree that if you were going for pixar quality, you would never get finished. Just do a search for a thread called "Forget Pixar" (something along those lines!), and take a look at the discussion involving 'quality vs finishing'.

I love that you compared your movie to a b-grade slasher. Personally, I love B Grade movies. Im a big fan of cheesy action films, with bad one-liners, and zombies.

One or two suggestions for your next project tho, would be to take a look at certain things that wouldn't slow down your render times, and would make your films a little moodier.

Adding some DOF to your film is definitely a good way to get a more 'film' look to your shots. The fantastic thing about DOF is that you could either do it with brute force, which wouldnt cut into your animation time (just a case of getting another computer to crunch out frames), or trickery. Most (all?) compositing programs have the ability to load up a ZDepth pass, and create a very convincing DOF effect...with no hit on render times at all.

Another thing is that while I see that you love rich, vibrant colours in your shots, limiting your palette for certain scenes mad help the mood. More recent B-Grade movies make alot more use of colour grading nowdays, because it gives the film a more pro-look, with off the shelf software.

Perhaps try some more lighting tricks....back lighting, rim lighting, even adding in some flicker could add a lot of mood to the shots. DOOM 3 did this really well. That game had very subtle lighting cue's which added incredibly to the overall story.

I look forward to seeing more from you! Keep the torch burning!

DDS
10-23-2008, 08:23 AM
wow hella cool man. Can't wait to see it finished. I wish it came out in Spain cinemas but here they are pretty lame when it comes to independant low budget films.

Good luck finishing it!

More people should try this...it's low visual quality but the effort of doing it with 1 guy is well worth any nuisances we might see while watching it. I've seen many XXX million dollar expos in famous museums and they SUCK. That's shameless, this is GENIUS!

worldofgrim
10-23-2008, 08:31 AM
man thanks, i love those suggestions.

...having sed dat....

i went for bold colors, specifically because i'm such a rogue bastard. i was like, why down black to 80% to mimic film when i'm not doing a film!? i wanted rich colors cuz its what digital is capable of doing. i'm trying to reinterpret what we keep expecting out of movies. i mean, literally, because we expect things based on limitations of film making, not because thats they way they are supposed to be. and blasting the colors was one of them.


but i will keep your suggestions in mind nonetheless... i'm actually test rendering stuff now for next film... i mean the look i want to go with concernnig lighting, shadows, hues, etc... which i never did in the first film, cuz i never really thought i could make a feature...

lazzhar
10-23-2008, 08:35 AM
Hats off , Really !!
Good luck for your next projects.

STANER
10-23-2008, 10:11 AM
i just think there isn't enough audiences for this kind B class 3D movies!
when people watch 3d movies they wan't them look great even if story sucks ass.

But i have a great respect for you trying to do your own thing! There's Nothing wrong with that:thumbsup:

MDuffy
10-23-2008, 11:08 AM
Congratulations on completing such a monumental accomplishment! And congrats on acceptance to the film festival as well. I like seeing what individuals and small teams are able to do when trying to pull off their own personal artistic vision with as little outside interference as possible.

I'd be curious to hear what tools and approaches you found that allowed you to pull off such a fast development rate. I'm also interested in hearing where you think you can do better on your next film, while still keeping up the production speed of this one. You've pulled off a one-man feature film; now the question becomes how do you pull off a higher quality one-man feature film?


Congrats again on the accomplishment.

Cheers,
Michael Duffy

AikoWorld
10-23-2008, 12:20 PM
He congrats man, nice to see somebody finishing a full feature. And respect to that.

Althou i`m not into this style nor the quality and from the trailer i dont see much then just shooting like an fps game.

If there is no quality then i look at the camera work. And in your trailer in enjoyed one side camera which was great. But this is not really enough to convince me in watching it. But you always need to start from somewhere and you did it.

But you do need one dominent key feature in there. Some of them are which you at least need one of is:

Quality overal
Film work
Style
Story
Originality

If you have one of these and full capacity well damn your sold for everybody in my views.

But this is what i think ofcourse, everybody els might think different :)

This could work if you where doing live action, but i think its to early to do b movies in 3D
3D is still very young and the timing for such b-movies is not good for western areas.

Althou in Asia and Japan b-movies are developed in piles. When i was in Thailand i was overwhelmed with the amount. Althou they always had One key element that was good, was it style, story, animation etc, but they did had one key element that was succesfully done.

doCHtor
10-23-2008, 12:41 PM
Congrats from me too.

I have to agree with AikoWorld that at least one feature should be dominant and of a higher quality.

ThomasMahler
10-23-2008, 01:23 PM
I don't know. I think when people talk about quality, then it's not just about visual quality. Of course you can't match the quality Pixar achieves by being a one man army, but you can definitely deliver when it comes to content and story.

Now, having seen your trailer, I only see shots that don't appeal to me at all. Why would you go with FX-heavy shots all the way? Isn't that totally opposite of what you should do? Focus on the important aspects of a film - show us great characters, a great story. Explosions don't make for a great film.

I see acid dropping around, explosions, fire, fireballs, zombies, tanks, machineguns, dinosaurs, more explosions - and not a single line of dialogue or decent acting.

This makes the whole thing feel super cheap, lacking in style and taste.

And you're not the first person creating animation with cheap production values, so there's no pioneering bonus here - Trey Parker and Matt Stone created their first South Park short for under 7k USD and it had a lot of quality. You spent 6 months on a 60 minute feature and it seems like there's a complete lack of quality.

I don't like to be the ass here, I love passionate people that really create marvelous stuff, but it has to go into the right direction. Creating a 60 minute cheap-looking 3d animation that focuses on FX-laden shots probably isn't the right direction.

I really hope I don't come across as an elitist prick or anything. I really think it's great that people now come up with stuff like that. I think we'll see a LOT more of this happening in the not-so-distant future. With CPUs getting more and more cores and rendering becoming less of a problem, tools getting better all the time and realtime being a focus for a lot of developers, I think we'll finally see that very, very small teams (teams!!!) will be able to create high quality work. They won't be able to mess with the million dollar budget productions of already accomplished filmstudios, but I'm sure we'll see some amazing stuff in the upcoming years.

So I hope you'll take the experience you got from working on this film and put your thoughts and knowledge into team projects from now on. Film is not a medium for a single person, it never will be. Film combines many, many different artforms into one - it doesn't make sense to push aggressively through a whole production completely on your own. Cause what'll happen if one person does waaaaay more than what his skillset allows him to do? The quality will go waaaaay down.

blenderhead
10-23-2008, 01:57 PM
I have to disagree with Thomas on this one, I thought the FX heavy shots (and the crowd shots with the helghan-like troups) were the highlights of that trailer. The 'soft body breast' shot scared me :p

A huge congrats on making a feature all by yourself mate! I think the animation is actually good for the amount of time you must have been restricted to per shot! I also have to disagree with the people who suggested the time was better spent making a higher quality short. How many hundreds of people opt for this instead of the dizzying alternative this guy has taken? Someone had to break the mold, and I think he did admirably (this trailer could be MUCH worse, considering it's an 84 minute production). Kudos mate, especially on the theatrical release! Make sure you post post this on other 3D sites too, like 3D Total.

ThomasMahler
10-23-2008, 02:04 PM
Yeah, I have to say that I'm probably not the best judge on this. I'm not big on VFX-only movies (like Transformers) anyway and I think there's a whole ton of people that love seeing things being blown up and so on - Just for kicks. You're probably satisfying that market. But it just didn't work for me. I'd much rather just see a simple movie of two characters playing out a dialogue in front of a black background than watch a virtual city being blown up using mediocre CGI.

So this stuff will always be controversial. I don't see a lot of quality here - maybe someone else does.

TheJob
10-23-2008, 02:55 PM
Ok I must say the visuals don't look too snazzy but, FOR ONE PERSON THIS IS LIKE WOW, JUST AMAZING! Seriously this takes a lot of dedication! I'd like to see this but I live in Australia...

Good work mate.

Stankluv
10-23-2008, 03:05 PM
Huge unabashed congratulations from me.

Bonedaddy
10-23-2008, 03:43 PM
How's the story?

worldofgrim
10-23-2008, 04:22 PM
thanks for the back and forth, everyone has actually been constructive in their comments.

the trailer is my hoaky doaky put together, so even that breaks the mold of timed, rhythmic professional trailers. i think to my own detriment, i have not put together a strong trailer.

i do have dialogue etc... but like a i goof, i just threw a trailer together. and yes, my f/x were all in 3dsmax r8. no plugins.

here's some quotes, well paraphrasing, from friends (who are professionals in entertainment)
and my friends do not say nice things to me, because i'm obtuse, so they dish it right back.

A pro high end cg Director, "uh, that is better than 90% of the stuff out there."
A tv writer, "that felt like that movie, Men of Children, where you just didnt know where this was going but it was non stop."
An ent lawyer friend, "i liked that more than Lord of the Rings" (ha ha, yah right... i had to push him on that, he was referring to the Ogres in my flick, their personalities)

consider this, the Hollywood Film Festival gets 2000+ films submitted.

i will say, i believe each and everyone of you would be able to watch this movie! if you watched any goofy b-movie sci-fi horror creature goof ball movie, late at night, then you can watch this.

another rule i broke, the film is not 2/3 dialogue. its around 10%.

storywise, its a chase film. it might have the feel of Ralph Bakshi's Fire & Ice, I dunno.

I'll give y'all a report of how it went at the screening, of course.

mdee
10-23-2008, 05:14 PM
Hehe, mental. Congratulations, I hated it, but in a good way, if that makes sense.

Dennik
10-23-2008, 05:46 PM
Since you are self aware of the quality limitations of your production I won't go that way, but all and all, it looks entertaining, as you said, for a b movie and popcorn night.

I think its a dream for many artists here to make a movie on their own (me included) and its nice to see that more and more people succeed in doing so.

Personally I can't settle for the b-movie style though. I'd rather sell my stories as a script and direct them on a larger scale production, than make them a movie all by myself.

patfour
10-23-2008, 06:31 PM
Hey worldofgrim,

Like most people who commented on this thread, I have to congratulate you on finishing what must have been a HUGE amount of work. That said, I wonder about the direction you took with this movie -

Judging from the trailer, it seems like your focus was mainly on action (and maybe sex appeal?) with little emphasis on characters and story. That doesn't bother me - some say there's no artistic merit in that kind of work, but a lot of movies prove there's a huge audience for brainless fun. The problem is, when action movies succeed despite weak stories, it's usually because their visuals are so amazing that people enjoy them anyway (Pirates of the Caribbean 3, looking in your direction). You acknowledge your visual quality for what it is, and I respect that - but knowing that limitation, why did you choose to make a movie whose main selling point is visual action?

Hoodwinked, early South Park, and (ESPECIALLY!) the films of Don Hertzfeldt show that low-budget animation can be entertaining and successful without expensive visuals. They succeed because they have strong concepts, and it's fun to see how the animation conveys those concepts despite budgetary limits (I've been told confinement inspires creativity, and I definitely agree). Honestly, while I hate to be pessimistic, I don't think an action-driven movie can succeed the same way. True, there are some action "cult-classics" whose fans enjoy their low-quality visuals, but I think the main draw of these films lies in likable characters and/or strong stories.

For your sake though, I hope I'm wrong. Maybe there are some low-quality, action-driven flicks that have been successful, and I'm just not aware of them. Or maybe yours will be the first, who knows? Or perhaps it's not fair for me to judge your movie by the trailer - forgive my ignorance if your feature actually does have strong characters and story. Whatever the case, I'd love to hear more about your motivation and creative process, and congratulations again on completing such a daunting project!

worldofgrim
10-23-2008, 07:55 PM
my process was walking thru blockbuster, renting low budget sci-fi, a smattering of fantasy, and those cable tv sci-fi creature features and being bored. i resorted to fast forwarding the 'character development' to see what kind of action there was.

animating character development is just as tough as action, and in my opinion less rewarding for an animator. i think Pixar and others have got the best character development. i didnt want to compete with that.

my style is niche of a niche of a niche, and so is my budget. so i felt, why not just go for it.

i have had korean animation studios mistaken my "job" animation for mocap, so i can animate at that level. but i have so much fun doing the stop motion fast & furious style. and getting shots laid out in days. i just love it and want to keep doing it.

there are some films with minimal dialogue, like Bambi, but even more, a rare film called "The Pathfinder" by Nils Gaup, its a masterpiece in limited dialogue. I aim to go that way, I think there are plenty of movies out there with 2/3 dialogue rule, with character development, with stories written, rewritten, committee input, friends, family, and so on, i figured, i just want to make a fun frolicking movie that has 1 voice, 1 opinion, 1 mindset, and 1 approach. There aren't too many films out there like that, so I'll just go ahead and do it.

Hocks
10-23-2008, 08:09 PM
Though I agree with most of you about the quality, but I think there are something more valuable here, which most of you have kinda mentioned too.

Which is this is a one person endeavor and he took it all the way to finish(60mins) himself in 6 months! You can probably have 40-50% of the artists on this forum who can create beautiful graphics, BUT you only have this ONE gentleman who has the determination, drive and persistence to finish a full feature himself!

If I were a film financier, and scouting for talent, that is one big thing I am looking for. As the cliche goes: The Worst film is an unfinished one. As an artist, we may not like to hear this, BUt, if I am an investor and I want to invest in a film, I want to invest in someone who can really finish it and not go over buget, better still, go under budget! Talent wise, that's probably easy to get, be it a script writer, artists, other crews etc, but the person who I hire to helm the project better has what it takes to finish it, on time and on budget, so I can make moneeeeeey!

My 2 cents.

worldofgrim
10-23-2008, 08:25 PM
here here!

and my film is 84 minutes, i did last 60 mins in 6 months. well, maybe it was 50 minutes... whatever!

full sound, full heavy duty score.

a professional sound & score guy told me, my sounds were great, just maybe tweak the levels. and he thought my score fit perfectly. i screened it at his sound studio.

i'm in negotiation right now with a distributor and an ent lawyer working pro bona (?) for me, so if they see this as doable, as let's try, then you all should take note, hunker down, and not just dream but start doing.

i've already proved it to me, and to you, that not only can it be done, but others can appreciate it too.

now if only i can get a check out of it.... :)

Brettzies
10-23-2008, 08:39 PM
I wrote a long winded post about quality and using "bad" as a style last night, but it just seemed pointless. At the end of the day, if the ronmethod makes you happy and you have the resources to do it, then fnck it, keep on making them I say.

Hocks
10-23-2008, 08:43 PM
You should watch out for Pro bono service from an attorney too, usually they would want upward of 40% of the cut for deals like that. You should discuss with him what he wants out of it and get it on paper before moving on.

But bare in mind, usually first time director takes very small cut of the deal. I read somewhere when Michael Bay got his break for his first major feature, Bad Boys, his fees was only 150k out of the 30 million dollar bugdet. (of which Jerry Bruckheimer and other producers got a big chunk of it). Bay had to pay 50k out of his pocket to reshoot a scene cos the executives refused to.

But look at where Bay is now.

worldofgrim
10-23-2008, 09:06 PM
I wrote a long winded post about quality and using "bad" as a style last night, but it just seemed pointless. At the end of the day, if the ronmethod makes you happy and you have the resources to do it, then fnck it, keep on making them I say.

yah i wrote lots of long winded ones too, but you've summed it up pretty good.


lawyer is good, old friend, 5% fee, independent spirit...

notlongago
10-23-2008, 10:10 PM
I do not think that you have understood what he was trying to do. If you want a 100 mil dollar cg movie this is not your thing. He clearly described what his movie was about in his page and that is what he ended up making. So I am not sure why you guys bashing his stuff. And to bash his stuff you need to write a half a page of totally political entrance. Just be straight and say what you want to say. I do not know him but to me he kept his promise. I personally do not see any difference between his movie and 100 million dollar hollywood crap. All those movies you guys adore is not much different than what he made. Only they spend millions of dollars put fancy names in the movie. They are also very boring movies. On the otherhand I really had good time watching his trailer. Yes his movie is full of cliches but that is precisely what he wanted to do.


Do you guys really think that hollywood movies are all about quality of over quantity?



I'd like to say congrats on doing what i've never had the nerve to try.

I hope not to come off as a high and mighty prick, but i've got to give some crits, and I assume others will also.

Please notice that I consider myself only a hobbiest, and don't even have a portfolio on cg talk.

Take what I say with a huge grain of salt, and my appologies.

I can only imagine the time and effort that went into a feature length show, and the idea that you did it on your own is very inspiring.

That said, I must admit that I find it very bad on most levels. The models, the animation, lighting, the effects, etc. It really hurts me to say such things, when I know you must have poured alot of youself into it.

Take pride in the fact that you did what so many have only talked about, but maybe you could polish up your skills for the next one. Keep working, cause you seem to have the balls for this work, just not the eye.

notlongago
10-23-2008, 10:17 PM
Really? Most people here have no idea about quality. Most of the works you see here are uninspiring repeating cliches of monsters, superheros, superchicks, musclemans so forth. Maybe you meant technical quality which is not enough to turn something into "quality" work.


It's just that most folks here value quality higher than quantity so don't be offended by some comments.

ManuelM
10-23-2008, 10:22 PM
Really? Most people here have no idea about quality. Most of the works you see here are uninspiring repeating cliches of monsters, superheros, superchicks, musclemans so forth. Maybe you meant technical quality which is not enough to turn something into "quality" work.

disagree on that one.

Pentagramma
10-23-2008, 11:06 PM
Man, thatīs quite brave of you. Congrats!

I`ve directed a few short films on my own (without any external financing, sponsors, grants, etc), and we who did know thatīs really hard work. I can barely imagine the amount of work and personal time you invested on this.

Good luck, and keep fighting the good fight.

MrHooper
10-23-2008, 11:27 PM
Hey man. Sure the style could use some finesse, but holy crap congratulations on the massive amount of work to get this done. I'm always blown away by people with that sort of full-out dedication to making something BIG. Great work. Here's something I came across recently that might help you speed production even more, while cranking up the animation quality. I plan on playing with it.

http://shoot3d.biz/gallery.html

I see this as a perfect sort of tool for the kinds of work you're doing

Andrew

monkeysweat
10-24-2008, 12:16 AM
I'm glad to see so many people responding to this post. I would like to offer a heartfelt apology to the creator if any of my comments were prickish. I do agree with others that perhaps my view of quality is tainted by Hollywood, and Pixar. I guess I was just wondering how commercially viable this project could be when compared to other work in the genre. As a piece of art, it is completely perfect. I wouldn't presume to tell someone that what they created was "wrong". The fact is that I'm jealous of what you've done. I've dreamt of doing it myself for years, only to let it go because I couldnt match that Hollywood look. I honestly never thought of doing it just for the hell of it. I think what you've done may actually get me to bite the bullet.

Thanks.

worldofgrim
10-24-2008, 01:25 AM
there ya go! exactly. i think as cg artists we get caught up on a tree, and not the forest... or cloned, stamped, or... you know what i mean. our expectations have gone too high and we're killing our own ability, our individual ability to create.

i am in negotiations with a distributor who loved my movie and believes he can sell it. i never met the guy, i'm not payng upfront, my lawyer likes the contract, and i even belittled my trailer and he said, no, no, its great, it shows all the sets & visuals and that ending was awesome... granted he's not a cg guy... but he is a distributor guy...

be jealous, let that fuel your anger, use the dark side... no wait, i don't have trademark on that. just know, you can do it. it's HARD.... FRIGGIN HARD... and i hope that others do accomplish thier own quirkly little movie...just make sure its violent, crazy, creatures etc... or i'll get mad! although my film is pg13 i think. videogame violence. no nudity but some innuendo!

i do hope to release a ton of how tos on the ronmethod (tm) with the DVD... and you can buy it :) . i want you all to know how i did it. i did do things DIFFERENTLY but not out of the ordinary, i mean you'd say, oh yah, i see, that's EASY!... but then you gotta repeat, for 60+ minutes of footage!

and concerning short cut proceduries and stuff, i'm old school, in that i want this to be raw animation. i dont like mocap or how it looks. i like just raw fishy smelling animation. its quirky and interesting to me. my brain doesnt like that 'ultra realistic' or 'almost realistic' or whatever approach. i just love harryhausen motions, the subtle and large movements.

robcat2075
10-24-2008, 03:57 AM
Congratulations on this recognition of your hard work. A one-man feature is practically a miracle.

Ilive
10-24-2008, 04:49 AM
I would say quality over quantity:deal:
I think if you could create 5-10min short from this movie with good quality it would be awesome.

Okay personally I hate this whole 5-10 minute mentality. It's cool and all but where is it really going to go. It will make a nice youtube video, a nice fronter pager on cgtalk, make it's rounds and maybe you'll get a job working for some nice company. I mean that is cool. I shouldn't say I hate that thinking. Personally I'm not really down with the take 1-3 year to make a 5-10 minute short. 6 months tops but hey that's an opinion and should not be a rule of thumb. It's one man's opinion.

What this guy did was fill a niche market. Some CG schlok film on the B-side. He got it in theatres to the NON-CG guys and they may appreciate it. This can also lead to a distributor, DVD sales (most of which will be profit for him) a cool showing at a theatre (good or bad it's still cool to see in a theatre) Some Hollywood exec might see it and give him a budget next time where he can hire you guys to make the movie for him and make it look like Pixar.

Making a nice beautiful short may get you a good job and the praise of your CG friend and colleagues

but

Making a feature length film that plays in a theatre can catch the eye of some dude with the money so on your next film can hire those great artists. Plus you may get the admiration of that niche market who likes cheap looking schlocky stuff. I miss the days of the old B Movie monsters. It has it's market. I think he knew his market when he went in.

I'm just saying even a bad looking feature length film that plays at a theatre can open more doors than the best looking short film playing on CGtalk.

Personally I'd rather make an ugly film that gets investors, who don't know what good cg is, coming to me than a great looking short that impresses the CG community. WE all know the CG community ain't got no money. LOL. Then I'd take that investor money, hire great artists and make that beautiful looking film.

I guess it really depends on your goals. Some like simply making beautiful art, some like making goofy stories in ugly graphics.

Forget Pixar" (something along those lines!), and take a look at the discussion involving 'quality vs finishing'.


Hey I think I started that post. :)

So I hope you'll take the experience you got from working on this film and put your thoughts and knowledge into team projects from now on. Film is not a medium for a single person, it never will be. Film combines many, many different artforms into one - it doesn't make sense to push aggressively through a whole production completely on your own. Cause what'll happen if one person does waaaaay more than what his skillset allows him to do? The quality will go waaaaay down.

Thomas you are not an elitist prick. I've seen tons of your posts and I think you are just a ying to many's yang. :) You bring in stability. I always love your posts.

Sad thing about this quote about not going at it alone the problem is many who want to make a CG project have to go at it alone. There is a lack of real collboration for the most part. It takes guys like this to show that it can be done. Hopefully this motivates some to say "If this guy can get in a theatre, me and my cg buddies can" and then go out and do it and make a quality film. I see a few do it here and there but the ones putting out the full CG films are really individuals by themselves.

Just to think of a few

Jeff Lew
M Dot STrange
Brian Taylor
Tyler Gibb
Phil Nibbelink
Bill Plympton
Timothy Albee

It would be nice if we made a production line. One models, next guy rigs, next texture, and so forth. The community could get something really interesting done. Funny thing the two communities actually getting things done as a community are the Hash a:M community and the Blender guys. Imagine a CGtalk feature film done by volunteers. Even just 10 volunteers. What comes to mind is Jeff Lew. If Jeff Lew can do 85 minutes for Killer Bean forever in 4 years. What could a team of even 4 do? I wish more of those happening and guys like this would not have to go it alone but maybe something like this can motivate the other guys to try to do better and accomplish next to Pixar quality together.

How's the story?
Now that is the bigger question! If you graphics are weak you need to make up with story. The only way you can get away with it is that the story is so bad it's good ala MANOS Hands of Fate!

my style is niche of a niche of a niche, and so is my budget. so i felt, why not just go for it.


See! I knew he was going for a niche market. Then good job and glad you are not deluded. You know the limitations of the film and you know to the trained CG artist it looks like crap but at the same time I see a charm in it as well. I'm glad you made it and would like checking it out on DVD. I hope it ends up being one of those it's so bad but its' good kind of things. 6 Months and in theatres. Very inspirational. I hope that rich exec plops some money on a talbe and says "here make something" and you get to hire these guys on cgtalk to make it look better.

I would also like to tell you to take alot of the critique seriously. You really want to improve for the next round visually otherwise the quirkiness of this film can wear off on the next.


For me personally and my film. I have to have it look a certain way. I'm going for speed and quality. Finding that balance of the two. I want to be somewhere in between you and Pixar. :) Congrats and tell us how it goes when you get that investor deal.

STANER
10-24-2008, 08:09 AM
Okay personally I hate this whole 5-10 minute mentality. It's cool and all but where is it really going to go. It will make a nice youtube video, a nice fronter pager on cgtalk, make it's rounds and maybe you'll get a job working for some nice company. I mean that is cool. I shouldn't say I hate that thinking. Personally I'm not really down with the take 1-3 year to make a 5-10 minute short. 6 months tops but hey that's an opinion and should not be a rule of thumb. It's one man's opinion.

What this guy did was fill a niche market. Some CG schlok film on the B-side. He got it in theatres to the NON-CG guys and they may appreciate it. This can also lead to a distributor, DVD sales (most of which will be profit for him) a cool showing at a theatre (good or bad it's still cool to see in a theatre) Some Hollywood exec might see it and give him a budget next time where he can hire you guys to make the movie for him and make it look like Pixar.

Making a nice beautiful short may get you a good job and the praise of your CG friend and colleagues

but

Making a feature length film that plays in a theatre can catch the eye of some dude with the money so on your next film can hire those great artists. Plus you may get the admiration of that niche market who likes cheap looking schlocky stuff. I miss the days of the old B Movie monsters. It has it's market. I think he knew his market when he went in.

I'm just saying even a bad looking feature length film that plays at a theatre can open more doors than the best looking short film playing on CGtalk.

Personally I'd rather make an ugly film that gets investors, who don't know what good cg is, coming to me than a great looking short that impresses the CG community. WE all know the CG community ain't got no money. LOL. Then I'd take that investor money, hire great artists and make that beautiful looking film.

I guess it really depends on your goals. Some like simply making beautiful art, some like making goofy stories in ugly graphics.


This thread is become very interesting and i like it;)

i have to admit that i really cant see my self watching more then 5-10min of this movie, but its just me.

This movie have also motivated me to countinue working at my own stuff and i really appreciate what worldofgrim have accomplish:bowdown:

kelgy
10-24-2008, 05:21 PM
Hahah I enjoyed the trailer.
I like the visual cliches and smiled at the no holds bar approach.

The lizard creature looks like the real break out star. :)

Good that you got some recognition for your efforts.

monkeysweat
10-25-2008, 02:36 AM
A CGtalk volunteer feature? That sounds like a great idea, but I think the pros around here may be too busy to donate. This might make a good thread in it's own right though...we kicked around a few story ideas, get the assets made by whoever is willing, and then the community could vote for the most fitting assets for the film. Asset creationd may well get done relitively fast...though the animation and rendering would take a while longer...

What do the mods think?

DrFx
10-25-2008, 04:08 PM
That was awesome!
Yeah, it isn't Pixar quality, but Jackson did Bad Taste before Lord of the Rings(I enjoyed both)!
Plus, you know where you stand. Not having delusions of grandeur has definetly helped you finish in a reasonable time, I guess.

DogBreath
10-25-2008, 11:47 PM
Congrats on finishing. Thanks for doing it, and telling us. Looking foward to the release. I bet your totally amped for the Big Screen Showing. Really enjoying this thread, its generated some buzz in a few directions.

worldofgrim
10-26-2008, 12:47 AM
well i hope so.

i was a bit bummed at the Arclight big screen premiere, none of you came!!! its hard enough to get folks to show up when there's no crew, no cast, nor family & friends of said crew & cast. and its on Friday at 11pm. so 30 friends in a 410 seat theatre, though quaint wasn't what i hoped for. alas.

and for the festival coordinator to call me a few hours before screening to say the digibeta wasn't working wasn't a great start. i mean... my god... so i'm scrambling panic, and he calls back, oh do you have a DVD? we could always use that. and i had to put down my p90 ruger and rush a dvd right over.

but let me say...WOW.... a 740x400 (cropped) DVD looks FRIGGIN AWESOME on a 1000000 foot screen! i couldn't believe it. we couldn't believe it. FRIGGIN AWESOME! CLEAR, LIKE CRYSTAL... I MEAN YOU COULD SEE ALL MY MISTAKES IN FEET PER SQUARE AREA! my lawyer buddy was like, wow, now i know we can push this as far as we want.

i made this for that little DVD on the bottom shelf kind of rental, now i'm like.... DAHMNnnn i'm thinking BIG SCREEN BABY!

so even if you render say 1k, with the new digital projectors, rich colors, its gonna look AWESOME!

i hope i do start some buzz, and i know many of you will do it better than i, and that's okay. what that means, is that i'll have something cool to watch. and maybe i can squeeze a title or two in there as well.

i am dealing with a distributor, so if all goes well, it will sale in a few territories. i'll try to add making of and how i did it stuff... i'm calling it the ronmethod (tm) :), it's nothing extraordinairy, you all will say... oh yah, that's so painfully obvious, you bastard! dahmn! i could have thawt of dat! but...

but again, i want more sci-fi, crazy, rock'em sock'em, shoot'em up, sword slashing pulp adventure yarns! and serioulsy, knock it off with the dialogue and story perfection thing! read a book if you want story! i come to SEE SUM SHEEEEEET!

...my two cents...

RenisanceX
10-26-2008, 01:05 AM
Have not personally watch the trailer or anything yet just reading through forums but would like to say congrats and all the best wishes pretty sure the journey took some work

Papa Lazarou
10-26-2008, 03:21 AM
That trailer is mental! Sure, in some respects it's kinda crummy, but it has a strangely appealing quality. I'm reminded of a quote by Mike Judge about when he made the original Beavis and Butthead shorts singlehandedly. He said that he wanted it to look like it was made by an insane person. This is quite a different sort of thing, but it has something of that quality, like the imagination of some sort of fixated 13 year old or reclusive paranoiac in a bunker or something. There's something gloriously retarded about the whole thing.

It might work on that level. I'd be interested in seeing maybe a couple minutes just to see how the thing actually plays, and if it hooks me in where I want to see what's going to happen, or has that dull disjointed quality one can get in B movies.

And it's cool to see that you have such a good attitude about it all, aware of the shortcomings, and not delusional or self-agrandising. Also I thought the music in the trailer was perfect for the relentless action.

Kudos for making it all happen!

worldofgrim
10-26-2008, 04:19 AM
MOM! I told you to stop following me around on the forums!!!

doCHtor
10-26-2008, 10:05 AM
but again, i want more sci-fi, crazy, rock'em sock'em, shoot'em up, sword slashing pulp adventure yarns! and serioulsy, knock it off with the dialogue and story perfection thing! read a book if you want story! i come to SEE SUM SHEEEEEET!

It better has some great visuals or style or great camera and such if i have to watch 2 hours of "crazy, rock'em sock'em, shoot'em up, sword slashing pulp adventure yarns". :shrug:

Matt_Forcum
10-27-2008, 04:44 AM
Congrats on completing a feature length animated film! That's far more animation than most of us will ever achieve.

As someone who is working on my own animated film, (and who isn't) I can sympathize with the "Quality vs Quantity" issue. Certainly, there are always ways to make a very simple animation look very clean and professional indeed. A film doesn't need to look like it was done by Pixar to be worthy of the big screen.

I hope you continue to create and don't take the criticism to harshly.

Kanga
10-28-2008, 05:05 AM
I,... er,... um,...eek
Never believed it was possible to cram so many cliches in one piece. My eyes were shooting blood at my monitors.

mister3d
10-28-2008, 09:53 AM
Actually I think this event is pretty good and inspiring. Hard to judge before seeing it. I had similar thought (and I'm sure many others) that cg films don't have to be all the same high-quality in terms of technology, and the direction backwards in terms of technology reveals another creative potential, and even can be stylish. Still I would like to see a better lighting and textures, but this takes time.. well, you had to sacrifice it. But still, this opens maybe a new vision. If you had 2 more people who could make better textures and lighting, this could make it more solid. I think your example is a bit extreme, but something in the middle may be a new direction. Anyways, this is amusing and maybe your next movie will raise the quality plank. Just think, you could make it half an hour but it still would be a big movie.

As already was mentioned, learning some optimisations could raise the quality without significant time devoting. For example simulating GI is not that hard, and making some more interesting lighting also won't take that much more time, especially considering you agree on this "without retake" strategy. Simply learning lighting will make your work more prominent. Let's take a hall for example. By setting your spotlights on the ceiling for each 5 meters and placing another low-placed lights on the floor will create this mystic and dynamic when animating look and rhythm. It will take you 20 minutes to set-up this, but will make the picture so more interesting.
Let me illustrate: I spent 1 hour on this setup, and I think it's worth of it. The render time for 768x576 is 1 appr minute, which is reasonable for animation, no Gi, no reflections... but still, it's better than simple ambient lighting. And just one hour.
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/5960/hallzv4.th.jpg (http://img100.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hallzv4.jpg)http://img100.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)
By the way, considering you don't aim for superquality, you could use many raytracing effects with low quality, which will make your pictures richer anyway. I added fresnel raytraced reflections, and it's now 2 minutes for a frame on a single quad core machine. Bear in mind it has volumetric lights. and area shadows, so it could be optimised much more.
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/487/hall2as3.th.jpg (http://img225.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hall2as3.jpg)http://img225.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

Ilive
07-02-2009, 05:10 PM
Hey World Of Grim

I was wanting to get an update on your project. Have you sold any DVDs yet? have you found the distributor? what is going on? News and updates please!

worldofgrim
07-02-2009, 06:35 PM
thanks for the interest.

my website is www.worldofgrim.com (http://www.worldofgrim.com)

Silverline Ent is my sales agent and the market is really really REALLY tough right now. Especially for indie non-celebrite original "never seen this before" sort of work. I guess when they want original work, they don't mean original...

i dont fit into live action horror/scifi stuff, nor CG (which is all children oriented), nor a brand or license, nor a celebrite voice, etc... but if you read the ralph bakshi comment or find his rant on youtube from comiccon, thats where i fit in... a niche of a niche as i call it. most folks on cgsociety have mixed views of my work, which bother me, cuz i'll go to other posts with 2 min commercial reels or single images & everyone seems so positive about those.

My film has been at several film markets now, some 'almost' sales to distributors. the last American Film Market was the worst many have seen in years. One film maker told me, he couldn't believe it, there were no after parties this year, unbelievable.

Making a film is one thing, but all the sales & contracts & license fees afterwards are never mentioned. Very tough road. I'm working on my 2nd, my wife is my exec prod. I'm Mr.Mom'ng, cutting back on everything, and just going for it. Why? I don't know, I just can't stop. I may look into webisode things or self distribution at some point but i have contract with silverline for "World Gone Mad". And they've taken it to major film markets and are still trying.

Ilive
07-03-2009, 04:16 PM
You should definately go into self distribution especially for the one man show. There are guys making movies (live action) for 10K and at least making 100K through self distribution and webisodes.

Alot of distributors are not buying right now and only buying A list stuff. I'd suggest a few things.

Talk to some of the animators who self distribute and see how things are going for them and maybe check for examples.

The truth is you did not make your movie the traditional Hollywood way so why should you distribute it that way?

Money is there to be made. Chop it up and webisode it!

There are several ways you can possibly make money.
1) WEbisode it and get advertisements (for optimization of web advertisements you might want to contact Scott Sava from Dreamlandchronicles)

2) Market to your nerd market. You don't have those niche guys at those shows looking for stuff, that is more mainstream right now considering the little guy cannot afford to buy films.
(Comicon 2009 is your best bet in the next couple of months. Get an artists booth if they are still open and sell sell sell DVDs, I've known folks sell a butt load of whatever they are selling) You should have a tag on your DVD like a complete making of that covers all aspects of the film process. Tag line should be something like "Don't just watch Anime, Make Anime" or something like that.

3) There is always the higher quality sell you can do on a pay per view status at Itunes. They are now taking video through various companies.

4) You can call distributors up yourself. Branscome comes to mind as they do niche animations, heck they distribute Rattattooing, I'm sure they'd distribute your movie.

Here aer some other guys to look up
1) Guy who made Monsters of the ID http://www.monstersmovie.com/index.htm he got distribution and a nice 2 month cover in 3d World magazine for his monstrosity made with Poser. Can't knock him though he has done what so many have not.

2) M Dot Strange www.mdotstrange.com (http://www.mdotstrange.com) He is obviously making niche movies and making a living doing it. ON top of that he gets invited to various festivals. I'd ask him how many self distributed DVDs he's sold. He sells through film baby and self selling. :)

3) Jeff Lew www.killerbeanforever.com (http://www.killerbeanforever.com) He's going to new heights and places of that I'm sure.

4) www.minushi.com (http://www.minushi.com)
5) www.dreamlandchronicles.com (http://www.dreamlandchronicles.com)
6) www.xombified.com (http://www.xombified.com)

Check those guys out. They are either making a living, will make a living, found a distributor or have at least some cash coming in from their films.

A shout out from Ralph Bakshi is a great shout out.

most folks on cgsociety have mixed views of my work, which bother me, cuz i'll go to other posts with 2 min commercial reels or single images & everyone seems so positive about those.


Why feel bad, heck did you see how many were dissing Transformers? Transformers which is 100,000,000 dollar film and 68% of the population loved it. If you can make at least 51% happy that means you won. :) Think of it as a race. The guy who gets the 49% vote vs the 51%. Majority still likes it. Who cares about the rest?

At the same time I saw people critquing the graphics in Transformers. I'm sure you can tear it apart at any level but come on it still looked freakin awesome.

Those images people are positive about are beautiful and very good looking. You can't knock that. Some even a PIXAR quality picture but it took them months to do that picture. It's impressive in it's own right.

You made an entire freakin movie on your own in less than a year. THat is a feat in itself and one that for the most part is not done except by a few rare exceptions.

You in a way could be considered a pioneer among a few elite who have made their own CG films. Be proud of that. You had a goal and you reached it now go for the next goal.

There are so many great talents here wasted on being a cog in the corporate machine. I can only imagine if you had 4 or 5 Jeff Lews getting together and making a movie. We'd have some sub-Pixar quality stuff rolling out in no time. But be glad that does not happen because that would leave folks like you in the dust and unable to pioneer this newer medium. You are a machine and not simply a cog in the machine. My advice though is don't follow the same hollywood route. Make your own path with that distribution.

Keep up the good work.

worldofgrim
07-03-2009, 06:58 PM
You humble me sir! I say sir, I am humbled! Humility!!!

Yes, I am not so dour as my post concerning the culture of CGSociety. I have come to realize even the Beatles are not liked by everyone. True dat. And I appreciate all that have posted, good or bad. I still love what I do!

I actually met Jeff Lew, we have commiserated with each other. :) He has been frustrated with the 'traditional route' and has taken up the charge of self distribution. I am looking into it right now, for future stuff. My sister, of all people, is an IT person and wants to take charge so I'm hoping she will. I get brain aneurisms whenever I try and do stuff like that myself. But I do now know, as a stubborn dude, that a used car salesman is JUST AS IMPORTANT as a stubborn elitist self stylized artitste! Whether that is wrapped up in same individual or a partnership.

I know of mdotstrange & a bit about monstersofid, but not the others, thanks! I will study their stuff.

And you are right I did not make it the traditional Hollywood way. However one of my many impetus for actually completing my meandering solo project was all those schlocking live action sci-fi/horror cg composited DVDs at Blockbuster. I figured, sheese, these are so bad, I should make an adventure yarn that I would want to see. You know, something you come across and go yes! I'll rent that! I really just wanted to get mine on that shelf there, a wee lil two spot of my DVD for a few weeks. Or just a 1 spotter... between "Whorezombies" & "You Murdering Husband You"...

& yes if i self distribute i will put in tons of making of. or i'll post them on website. hopefully my website will look all glitzy & coolio soonish...

hey mr knowitall, you do it knowitall! feel free to contact me whenever. thanks.

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