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RobertoOrtiz
10-17-2008, 01:44 PM
Here is a piece from the BYU website talking about the rising profile of their animation program...

Pixar's EdCatmull ids quoted as syaing that,

“Over the years, Pixar has worked with a lot of universities around the country,” says Catmull. “One of the interesting things is that, all of a sudden in the last few years, we’ve found that BYU has risen to the top. BYU has an extraordinary program here.”

and

“It’s the perception, not just of Pixar but also of the other studios too, that something pretty remarkable is happening at BYU.”


http://magazine.byu.edu/?act=view&a=2246

lovisx
10-17-2008, 03:54 PM
If you get baptised... it's also a good place to meet your future wife :love: lol!

mental
10-17-2008, 04:06 PM
The BYU magazine ran a glowing promotional piece written by a BYU student on the BYU animation program? Unbelievable!

/edit: There's a press release forum for these types of threads.

SovereignKnight
10-17-2008, 05:57 PM
LOL @ BYU.
I couldn't get through the required Religion courses though...

Capel
10-17-2008, 06:46 PM
The BYU magazine ran a glowing promotional piece written by a BYU student on the BYU animation program? Unbelievable!

/edit: There's a press release forum for these types of threads.

uhhh... with glowing quotes from Ed Catmull himself.

could you make it more obvious that you have a problem with the mormon church? How is this thread not appropriate for this forum? This is cg news.

The fact of the matter is that if this were some other university that had no religion associated with it you guys wouldn't be making comments like this. way to completely ignore the positive and get right to being negative. you're probably really fun to hang out with.

mental
10-17-2008, 07:47 PM
The BYU magazine ran a glowing promotional piece written by a BYU student on the BYU animation program? Unbelievable!

/edit: There's a press release forum for these types of threads.could you make it more obvious that you have a problem with the mormon church?
Where did I ever mention the Mormon church? Replace "BYU" with any academic institution and my original post would still apply regardless of religious affiliation. Furthermore I do not appreciate being called a bigot.
How is this thread not appropriate for this forum? This is cg news.
This 'news' was published by BYU, written by BYU and about BYU. What is so objective or unbiased about this article that seperates it from a standard press release?

Capel
10-17-2008, 07:53 PM
I don't think it matters who published it. the quotes are completely unbiased and it has to do with animation.

as for you having the same argument regardless of academic institution... maybe and maybe not. i don't really know you, but i'm not calling you a bigot.

mental
10-17-2008, 08:22 PM
I don't think it matters who published it...
...or who conducted the interview or question who benefits. If this had been an article by a 3rd party then there would have been no issue. But it is wrong to take what basically amounts to an advertisement and present it as unbiased news.

as for you having the same argument regardless of academic institution... maybe and maybe not. i don't really know you, but i'm not calling you a bigot.
So now it may or may not be "obvious that I have a problem with the mormon church"? Perhaps you should be more careful with what you say or who you accuse in the future. Either way thanks for the non-apology.

RobertoOrtiz
10-17-2008, 08:40 PM
Oh for the love of God, Shiva, Allah, Buddha, Xenu and Flying Spaghetti Monster.

If the co-founder of the biggest company on the block says they are doing something right,
maybe we should pay attention.

To all GET OFF THE FREAKING HIGH HORSES.

I am in no mood to debate this.

If Ed Catmull likes a school, maybe we should find out why he likes it, before we go off the deep end.

That is news and that is it.

-R

TheNeverman
10-17-2008, 08:53 PM
well said...

lovisx
10-17-2008, 09:13 PM
Sorry, I'm actually a "Mormon"... and BYU has some funny points. Not trying insult, just having some inside joke fun. Hope nobody was offended.

Actually very interesting that the course is doing well seeing as is somewhat church oriented. I'd be the last to predict that University doing good in cg.

secretasianman
10-17-2008, 09:18 PM
Oh for the love of God, Shiva, Allah, Buddha, Xenu and Flying Spaghetti Monster.

If the co-founder of the biggest company on the block says they are doing something right,
maybe we should pay attention.

To all GET OFF THE FREAKING HIGH HORSES.

I am in no mood to debate this.

If Ed Catmull likes a school, maybe we should find out why he likes it, before we go off the deep end.

That is news and that is it.

-R


whoo yea, robert lays down the discipline stick.

sorry you got me excited for a sec.

Capel
10-17-2008, 09:19 PM
...or who conducted the interview or question who benefits. If this had been an article by a 3rd party then there would have been no issue. But it is wrong to take what basically amounts to an advertisement and present it as unbiased news.



i'm done with the whole bigot thing, but come on man. Ed Catmull is being quoted here. Who freakin cares if it was written by someone at the school. And who even cares if the article was written to be an advertisement. If the school is doing that well and it's programs are that solid then it should be advertised as much as possible. how is it any skin off your back?

side note: I like dinosaurs.

mental
10-18-2008, 12:10 AM
I am in no mood to debate this.
This is a discussion forum. You post an article and I reply back with my opinion.
If Ed Catmull likes a school, maybe we should find out why he likes it.
I believe that Ed Catmull is partial to both his home town of Salt Lake City and his faith by making frequently favorable quotes about the school and his continuing efforts to foster a healthy animation program at Bringham Young University. He has a personal interest in BYU. There is nothing inherently wrong with this, nor is that the issue. Ed Catmull is free to do and say whatever he wants. But to insist that this article is unbiased or impartial is to be disingenuous.
how is it any skin off your back?
True. I just feel that Roberto should vet his sources more thoroughly before proclaiming something as news.

ccherrett
10-18-2008, 12:25 AM
This is a discussion forum. You post an article and I reply back with my opinion.

I believe that Ed Catmull is partial to both his home town of Salt Lake City and his faith by making frequently favorable quotes about the school and his continuing efforts to foster a healthy animation program at Bringham Young University. He has a personal interest in BYU. There is nothing inherently wrong with this, nor is that the issue. Ed Catmull is free to do and say whatever he wants. But to insist that this article is unbiased or impartial is to be disingenuous.

True. I just feel that Roberto should vet his sources more thoroughly before proclaiming something as news.


I did not know that about ED. Funny how fast people are jumping to defend BYU in here.

DestroyerU
10-18-2008, 01:24 AM
I believe that Ed Catmull is partial to both his home town of Salt Lake City...

Catmull went to the University of Utah, a competing school to BYU.
BYU isn't located in SLC. Small details, just throwing that out there.


his continuing efforts to foster a healthy animation program at Bringham Young University. He has a personal interest in BYU. There is nothing inherently wrong with this, nor is that the issue. Ed Catmull is free to do and say whatever he wants. But to insist that this article is unbiased or impartial is to be disingenuous.

Seems like fostering a healthy animation program is a good thing.(?)

Silverblade-T-E
10-19-2008, 12:29 AM
Not surrpised about this, as one of their courses combined to do a damned funny "Lemming" animation a few years back, go look for it :D

Half my family are LDS, but not me *continues to happily wind his folks up and engage in religious arguements, to which we can now add, digital art!*
Now I need to send 'em an email about this :)

Atwooki
10-19-2008, 11:07 PM
Lest we forget:

"CG artists thrive in a 'copy & paste' and time-wise, an exponentially blinkered world.
Not the 'artists' fault per se.. more that of those would-be controllers that abound to 'harness' their energies".

('EcclesCake-elasticus psalm: 1-24')


Relevant details WILL be overlooked from time to time ;)

mental
10-20-2008, 12:30 AM
Catmull went to the University of Utah, a competing school to BYU.
BYU isn't located in SLC. Small details, just throwing that out there.
I am aware of his educational background. My point was that he is from the immediate area.
Seems like fostering a healthy animation program is a good thing.(?)
I never said it was bad :shrug:

---

For what it's worth, this thread could have been about the health benefits of Canned Soup. But if you cite the Campbell Soup Company as your news source somebody is going to call shenanigans.

Tama
10-20-2008, 05:23 PM
I am aware of his educational background. My point was that he is from the immediate area.

I never said it was bad :shrug:

---

For what it's worth, this thread could have been about the health benefits of Canned Soup. But if you cite the Campbell Soup Company as your news source somebody is going to call shenanigans.

Why didn't you get all hot and bothered over this thread?

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=59&t=685868

Perhaps it wasn't your intention but you've come off as a cranky secularist alarmist.
Not that there's anywrong wrong with that...

mental
10-20-2008, 06:30 PM
Perhaps it wasn't your intention but you've come off as a cranky secularist alarmist.
Why do people suddenly become tone deaf to all reasoning when they believe the subject of religion is being discussed? Let me state this one more time for the hard of hearing:

This thread is not about religion.
This thread is not about the Mormon church.

Why didn't you get all hot and bothered over this thread?

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthr...p?f=59&t=685868 (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=59&t=685868)
Because the probablity for hate mongering was too low in that thread :rolleyes:

Capel
10-20-2008, 11:08 PM
reading the OP and immediately thinking, "Heeey, this technically doesn't qualify as 'news' because the quotes being cited are from someone who went to the school in question." seems like argument for argument's sake. who frakkin cares if it's not "technically" news because it's a little biased. It's pretty safe to say that Catmull wouldn't say such bold things if the animation program wasn't up to par, regardless of his religious affiliation.

side note: I like battlestar galactica.

kael00
10-22-2008, 12:41 AM
I used to do some videography work for a guy who ran a rather large early music society. Every year he would put on a rather well thought out and well researched concert series. The most prominent reviewer at the time wasn't really into early music and liked early music performed on original instruments even less so he would routinely write scathing reviews of the concerts.

The person who ran the festival however had a large list of quotes from said reviewer all over his promotional material that completely gave the impression that the reviewer not only liked the organisation but held them in nothing but awe.

It was quite amazing to see how effective selective editing can be.

Of course i'm not implying that is the case here and for all I know the paragraphs surrounding those quotes in Ed Catmulls speech were also full of praise, i'm merely saying that an article praising an institution written by the institution loaded with quotes should be taken with a grain of salt.

TheNeverman
10-22-2008, 04:31 PM
Why do people continue to chime in here and call shenanigans? Roberto was just sharing something that's been covered in print/tv/web and has kept us informed of recent educational developments... This absolutely encompasses CGNews.

Reading thru some of these posts, it's pretty clear "what constitutes news" is not the issue here though. The issue here appears to be (1.) Ed's quote was taken out of context or (2.) that BYU's animation program "isn't" as good as Ed has made it look...

Now I fully agree, being an informed public - we need to know all the angles, not just those views presented by the writer. The biggest problem here is that the nay-sayers have yet to present any supporting information to the contrary...

Find someone that attended the lecture that has a solid argument contrary to what's been said, find someone from *Pixar (see below) that thinks these students/education are rubbish. Citing analogies in other unrelated stories/fields dosen't do much for credibility here...


A few more points to consider:

1. *Pixar isn't the only company picking up these students, graduates are also going to EA Games, Microsoft, nVidia, SkyWalker Ranch/ILM... BYU places nearly all of their animation grads in their field within 6 months of graduation.
2. Pixar sends their own employees to the University to mentor students, now how cool and valuable is that?
3. BYU's animation program is surviving mostly (if not fully) on *private donor funds (see below) - lots of money and support involved here, would stand to reason these people really believe strongly in the success of the program
4. Only about 10% of the total applicants to this BYU program get in; they don't currently have the staff to meet the demand of those wanting in.

Rhs_CG
10-22-2008, 05:09 PM
The lecture Catmull gave at BYU was similar to the one he gave at Stanford. You can watch it at Stanford Business School (http://videogsb.stanford.edu/?fr_story=13ae9d4f1a13e4c68f6c87bfe6a15598d9f16c39&rf=bm).

Harvard Business Weekly also has an article Catmull wrote, which touches on some of the things he lectured on as well, though its a lot more informative and interesting, in my opinion, than either of the lectures. Check it out here (http://harvardbusinessonline.hbsp.harvard.edu/hbsp/hbr/articles/article.jsp?ml_subscriber=true&ml_action=get-article&ml_issueid=BR0809&articleID=R0809D&pageNumber=1).

Capel
10-22-2008, 06:05 PM
It was quite amazing to see how effective selective editing can be.
...i'm merely saying that an article praising an institution written by the institution loaded with quotes should be taken with a grain of salt.

Yeah i bet it really went something like this:

“Over the years, Pixar has worked with a lot of universities around the country. One of the interesting things is that, all of a sudden in the last few years, we’ve found that BYU has risen to the top. BYU has an extraordinary program here. ...NOT!!!”

and

“It’s the perception, not just of Pixar but also of the other studios too, that something pretty remarkable is happening at BYU. ....SIKE!!!”

mental
10-22-2008, 06:15 PM
seems like argument for argument's sake. who frakkin cares if it's not "technically" news because it's a little biased.
Low journalistic standards damage the integrity of CGTalk's News section over the long run. That is why I take a hardline stance against articles of this nature. Standards are what seperate publications such as the Wall Street Journal or Washington Post from trash like USA Today and the NY Daily News. A CG related example would be the differences between Cinefex --> Post Magazine --> Computer Graphics World.

Why do people continue to chime in here and call shenanigans? Roberto was just sharing something that's been covered in print/tv/web and has kept us informed of recent educational developments... This absolutely encompasses CGNews.

Reading thru some of these posts, it's pretty clear "what constitutes news" is not the issue here though. The issue here appears to be (1.) Ed's quote was taken out of context or (2.) that BYU's animation program "isn't" as good as Ed has made it look...
Nate, please forgive the colloquialism but your entire argument is 'ass-backwards'. I know the reasons behind my critcism. And it is neither the quality of BYU's animation program nor Ed Catmull's judgement that is being questioned here. It is the source of the article and how it has been presented.

A few more points to consider:
All four of these points could apply to any number of companies or colleges. They are non-issues.

3rd-Axis
10-22-2008, 06:47 PM
This thread reminded me of a prank that was pulled on a news channel I used to work for. I can verify this really did run on the air and was not photoshopped. ;)

http://brentroad.com/photos/00234885.jpg

TheNeverman
10-22-2008, 07:16 PM
Low journalistic standards? How exactly do you determine this?

I read all 3 of the CG sources you've cited - Cinefex, Post, and CGW, and value what info they share - (though I don't understand why you would compare the 3, they all focus on somewhat different aspects of production, with some obvious overlap.)

I seem to have missed the mark trying to understand what you were saying and thank you for clarifying your point - so you don't have an issue with Ed or BYU Animation, you have an issue with BYU PR? Who would you suggest cover what goes on there and such events?

Would hearing from some past/present students legitimize this as "news"?


Low journalistic standards damage the integrity of CGTalk's News section over the long run. That is why I take a hardline stance against articles of this nature. Standards are what seperate publications such as the Wall Street Journal or Washington Post from trash like USA Today and the NY Daily News. A CG related example would be the differences between Cinefex --> Post Magazine --> Computer Graphics World.


Nate, please forgive the colloquialism but your entire argument is 'ass-backwards'. I know the reasons behind my critcism. And it is neither the quality of BYU's animation program nor Ed Catmull's judgement that is being questioned here. It is the source of the article and how it has been presented.


All four of these points could apply to any number of companies or colleges. They are non-issues.

TheNeverman
10-22-2008, 07:18 PM
Excellent links, enjoyed reading/hearing more about his lectures...



The lecture Catmull gave at BYU was similar to the one he gave at Stanford. You can watch it at Stanford Business School (http://videogsb.stanford.edu/?fr_story=13ae9d4f1a13e4c68f6c87bfe6a15598d9f16c39&rf=bm).

Harvard Business Weekly also has an article Catmull wrote, which touches on some of the things he lectured on as well, though its a lot more informative and interesting, in my opinion, than either of the lectures. Check it out here (http://harvardbusinessonline.hbsp.harvard.edu/hbsp/hbr/articles/article.jsp?ml_subscriber=true&ml_action=get-article&ml_issueid=BR0809&articleID=R0809D&pageNumber=1).

Rhs_CG
10-22-2008, 08:08 PM
Excellent links, enjoyed reading/hearing more about his lectures...

Yeah, he's really smart, and what he talks/writes about is fairly universal in applying it to any field or discipline.

I go to BYU and when he talked about the animation program (both in the main lecture, and in animation-major Q&A afterwards) I don't recall him saying much more than "You're on the right track." It was afterwards, when interviewed by media, and in a Splinedoctors (http://splinedoctors.com/2007/11/the-original-spline-doctor/)* interview last year, that he shares his opinion on where the program is relation to other animation schools.


(*It's in the last 5-10 minutes, when answering a question about learning animation, the different schools, and whether or not you should be discipline-focused, or jack-of-all-trades)

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