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Mike RB
06-10-2003, 07:06 AM
http://www.3dluvr.com/blackbourn/web/LWEndomorphs.avi
5mb divx 5.03

the morph solution in other packages cant really do a lot of base model editing and have the effect translate to all the morphs...

Mike

wgreenlee1
06-10-2003, 07:29 AM
I'm not getting what youre saying..

Are you saying the morphs are affecting other morphs as well as the base model?

:shrug:

Mike RB
06-10-2003, 07:31 AM
im saying in most other 3d programs if you monkey with either the base or the targets your completely screwed. Lw lets you remodel the base, hack it up, stitch parts onto other models.... and all the morphs stay intact.

CGBeard
06-10-2003, 07:56 AM
Hello Mike. Just a quick question in regard to Endomorphs. Do you know if there is a limit to the number of Endomorphs MorphMixer can handle?

I agree with you. I think Endomorphs are one of Lightwaves strongest features.

Andy

takkun
06-10-2003, 08:25 AM
cool, I didn't know that you could copy the geometry and the morphs stay intact. :applause:

Tudor
06-10-2003, 10:00 AM
Endomorphs rock! :)

Everytime I show this to a Maya user they are in awe!
This is part of LW's greatness when it comes to open workflow.
Sketch out a character. do morph targets. Continue working on character, and the morphs update with it :D
Never again have to redo all morph targets because the character needs redesigning.

mix
06-10-2003, 02:06 PM
Oh Yea!
Endomorphs are so friggin flexible in LW.
This is a feature Iv been wanting in maya for a long time.

proton
06-10-2003, 03:31 PM
I know a few shops that create one head and set up all the endomorphs....they then change the base mesh into several characters and then they have a whole cast ofr characters and only had to build teh morphs for one head.....

Gotta love that!

Julez4001
06-10-2003, 03:43 PM
Totally agree. Art Howe from newtek was very beneficial when there an are awhen using endomorphs and messiah, they fixed in 7.0b and I just enjoy doing al more in lw rather than messiah morphblender (unless i really need a special trick).

Endomorph rocks!

Facial Deluxe
06-10-2003, 03:49 PM
2000% agree, I use it all the time, constantly going back and modifying the baseMorph, one of the things I like most :)

3DDave
06-10-2003, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by proton
I know a few shops that create one head and set up all the endomorphs....they then change the base mesh into several characters and then they have a whole cast ofr characters and only had to build teh morphs for one head.....

Gotta love that!


Yep! That's what I am doing right now.

You do have to do some minor edits on the morph targets though.

Remi
06-10-2003, 04:06 PM
How are endomorph transitions for lipsyncing...? @MIKE RB

Facial Deluxe
06-10-2003, 04:13 PM
In my experience they are quite powerfull. You basiquely create a few set of endomorphs, mouth open, smile, angry, etc + a few phonems A O I U + P and M. And with this (and sometimes less) you mix them with MorphMixer Smile+Open+A etc.
Very easy and intuitive IMHO. Also, keep in mind that we use to speak quickly, so a "mouth position" often last something like 2 frames. Using the wav importer in Layout + Morphmixer and you achieve a synchrolips quite fast :)
There are special softwares to do synchrolips too, but I didn't feel the need to use them.

Remi
06-10-2003, 04:22 PM
Thats just it I don't want to use a seperate program...I want to use strictly LW....I'm glad to hear that thery are pretty smooth...Thanks for the input Facial Deluxe....:thumbsup:

whattawa
06-10-2003, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by CGBeard
Hello Mike. Just a quick question in regard to Endomorphs. Do you know if there is a limit to the number of Endomorphs MorphMixer can handle?

I agree with you. I think Endomorphs are one of Lightwaves strongest features.

Andy

There is no limit. We at DAZ Productions specialize in character morphs, and at one time I had 1600 morphs loaded onto one LW model. The whole reason we use LW is for endomorphs. I also agree it is the best feature of LW. (by the way, the model with 1600 morphs was around 500MB when cut in half)

On the other hand, because we use Endomorphs more than probably any other entity out there, I have a few complaints about how they work, but those would be things that I should probably submit to Newtek, I guess.

Mwai Kasamale
06-11-2003, 06:06 AM
The only app that ca do this (http://benkas.homestead.com/files/Endo.wmv) with the built-in morphing tools. Maya's blendshapes can't perform blendshapes that allow a solid object to seperate its faces, I'm not sure about XSI but I doubt it.

Tudor
06-11-2003, 07:42 AM
Hmm.. not endomorphs, but rather a morphmixer problem:
In Maya you see the keyframes for the morphs on the timeline. Not in Lightwave. This makes it hard to do lipsync in LW imo.

mjm
06-13-2003, 06:39 PM
Sorry for ripping this back out of the 3rd-page grave.

I've never seen it mentioned anywhere, but one of the coolest plugins I've used in Modeler is Emix_Plus (and MorphMap Mixer; they're essentially the same thing). It's a 6.5 plugin, but works with 7.5+, and allows you to have sliders for endomorphs in Modeler. So let's say you have a bunch of endomorphs, but you need to get a morph inbetween two (or more) of them and tweak. Just make a new endomorph, run plugin, adjust sliders to where it's needed, modify, and you're done.

The only downside is that there are no scrollbars, so working with a lot of maps can become difficult. In this case, you can run another plugin (forget its name at the moment, but I believe it's from the same guy) to just select a morph from a list and use a single slider.

Just FYI. Endomorphs = :drool:

Nemoid
06-13-2003, 07:13 PM
WOW!!

i'm very happy to see that Lw have this strong point!!!!
hope to learn to use them very well.
i also love the trick of the base head!! i will try it!!:buttrock: :buttrock: :buttrock:

Endomorphs:thumbsup:

lwbob
06-13-2003, 07:47 PM
I've been learning Maya and I keep thinking how primitive "blendshapes" seem. Here is my advanced animation system watch your step around the row of heads I need to have off screen."

Mike RB
06-13-2003, 08:26 PM
Endomorphs are the best solution to the floating heads i've seen so far.

Mike

HowardM
06-13-2003, 08:46 PM
mjm- cant you save out a 'save transformed' version of the object in layout?

mjm
06-13-2003, 08:52 PM
Howard: Yeah. But mixing morphs in Modeler in (near)realtime speeds up workflow, so you don't have to go through all that :)

Mangled Poly
06-13-2003, 08:55 PM
i think the thread should be changed to why endomorphs and mikerb rule!

dragonfollower
06-13-2003, 10:14 PM
Yes!!! This is the problem I've been having with Messiah:Animate. You have to redo all of your morph targets if you make ANY change to the base model. Very backward IMHO. I'm glad to know that LW can do this. Is anyone else here using LW endomorphs with Messiah? And if so, how do you go about using them?

-Brian

Jonathan
06-14-2003, 12:11 AM
I use Messiah but I also character animate in Lightwave as well. When I have very complicated character motions, or am making 2 or more characters interact, I use messiah all the way. If I'm doing basic things, walking, stand up sit down etc..... I use Lightwave.

Endomorphs are KING. When I develope my phenomes I too make base morphs and mix them together. When I lip synch, motion mixer works like a dream because it allows me to create neutrals in an underlying layer. Then the expansion of making changes to my model in modeler and switching to layout for auto update for doing corrective and muscle morphs, yes, that is a feature that is also great.

Lightwave has so many strong points, I just hate the fact that the animation system leave so much to be desired.

CourtJester
06-14-2003, 12:49 AM
Endomorphs rule because they are exceedingly simple: they are nothing more than a vector attached to each vertex -- amplitude (how far to move the point) and direction (where to move it). Undoubtedly they are one of the things LightWave got right from the get-go that no one else has approximated.

Why no other package implements the same thing, I have no idea. (Did Newtek patent them?)

dragonfollower
06-14-2003, 01:24 AM
Well, Animation Master has poses which are basically the same thing. But yeah, out of the pro programs, you'd think people would have already thought of this stuff. Especially with Maya. My question is, why doesn't Messiah, as a LW plugin, support endomoprhs? Oh, how this would make my life so much easier!!!! I suppose I could do all of my character's body animation in Messiah and then switch to LW for the Facial/Hand animation. I'll have to try this route. Anyone else work this way? Just wanted to know if it's doable.

-Brian

Sil3
06-14-2003, 02:16 AM
Originally posted by CourtJester

...

Why no other package implements the same thing, I have no idea. (Did Newtek patent them?)

Im not absolutly sure, but i think that Mirai had something very similar to Endomorphs long before LW had them, but yes they are an amazing feature, oh boy yes they are :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

voodoo1man
06-14-2003, 06:03 AM
"Im not absolutly sure, but i think that Mirai had something very similar to Endomorphs long before LW had them, but yes they are an amazing feature, oh boy yes they are"

From what I gather, Mirai's displacement (morph) system has been there for quite some time. It integrates any changes to the mesh relative to the parent state you choose (Mirai's morphs are hierarchical - usually this would be the "home" state of the finished model from which all other displacements are derived). It also allows displacements to be mixed selectively in any combination, either with absolute strength or magnet falloff. When it comes to the basic implementation at the vector level, you can choose either linear or rotational coordinates to be stored for each displacement.

A good displacement system is definitely a very poweful tool, and it turns out to have a lot of uses beyond animation and modelling (in the recommended Mirai workflow, it's the main tool for UV mapping and comes in very handy in 3d paint). I haven't used LW since 5.6 - methinks it's time to check all these cool changes out.

j3st3r
06-14-2003, 02:02 PM
I wish if LW would adopt many-many more features...XSI did a great job, when they solved the bone deform correcting problem...But it requires the app to be merged...

CIM
06-14-2003, 03:13 PM
Well, I doubt LW will be merged, but I don't see why Newtek doesn't (and didn't) add all animation setup tools (bone creation and editing, weight map creation and editing, and Endomorphs) to Layout.

Death to all the half-baked 'gons!

Emmanuel
06-14-2003, 06:04 PM
AMEN ! I just started doing my skeletons in Layout again.
Partly because Larry mentioned it, partly because I am too stupid to fiddle with skelegons and their rotations in modeler.
Somehow, when i set up the bones in Layout, the skeleton comes out right in 99% of the cases, while skelegons NEVER behave like a Layout-bone-setup for me.
99% of my IK-wobbling-and-snapping-problems are gone if I set up my bones in Layout.

Nuff said.Skelegons...make..me...ANGRY

Jonathan
06-14-2003, 06:14 PM
I found that the trick to using skelegons to not connect all of them. When I use skelegons to rig, My extremeties are rarely connected to a parent bone, they are parented afterwards in Layout. This gives me a bit of flexibility, and allows my axis to properly align, still riging in layout, even using draw bones feels clumsy to my work-flow. Luckily ortho beta is ready for downloads, still I've been doing it that way in messiah for some time now.

It's interesting how PM group solved the problem by allowing deformers to be parented to nulls. There is so much flexibility in that method which one of the reasons why I like it so much.

Now, back to my Softimage Demo.

Sil3
06-14-2003, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by voodoo1man

A good displacement system is definitely a very poweful tool, and it turns out to have a lot of uses beyond animation and modelling (in the recommended Mirai workflow, it's the main tool for UV mapping and comes in very handy in 3d paint). I haven't used LW since 5.6 - methinks it's time to check all these cool changes out.

Yes it is, i do my UV layout with an Endomorph (Meni tutorial), its very nice and easy to do it on a Low Poly object, High Poly requires more work, but it works pretty well also.

Pick up LW 7.5 (forget the bs and cs versions) and u will be amazed. LW 7.5 is a long long step forward from LW 5.6, i could never go back to 5.6 for modelling (or anything else), no way.

Amphiblien
06-14-2003, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by Sil3
Im not absolutly sure, but i think that Mirai had something very similar to Endomorphs long before LW had them, but yes they are an amazing feature, oh boy yes they are :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:


Yes, Mirai had them long before LW. Mirai also has rotational displacements (morph targets). Great for things like eye lids and jaws....

I get a lot of mileage out of morph target UV mapping, regardless of the program I use. I tried to just cylindrically map a head the other day, and I felt crippled.


:bounce:

faulknermano
06-15-2003, 01:04 AM
i've always been wondering why maya doesnt have something similar to endomorphs. i was reading something a while back about 'blind data types' but i never got my head around it. i'm here wondernig if maya has some kind of fundamental capacity to attach data to its components or elements, like vertices, polygons, etc. then using a morphmixer-kind of a plugin, to control the displacement.

if so, i think an endomoprh-like system could be set up, and i'd be wondering why others havent picked up on it yet.

faulknermano
06-15-2003, 01:32 AM
btw: lw's endomorph do rule. it's sophisticated, and yet simple enough to be predictable and understandable.

maybe newtek did patent the thing to a degree. but the 'technology' has already been there before lw even had UVs. in fact, the 'technology' is the same as UVs, only that they extended that to include other data types.

and fyi: if you write lscripts you can create your custom VMap types. which is really cool... :)

Larrikin
06-15-2003, 02:45 AM
Originally posted by Facial Deluxe
In my experience they are quite powerfull. You basiquely create a few set of endomorphs, mouth open, smile, angry, etc + a few phonems A O I U + P and M. And with this (and sometimes less) you mix them with MorphMixer Smile+Open+A etc.
Very easy and intuitive IMHO....



Yeah and after you've created a word like that you can use Motion Mixer to load and save it as a motion clip (*.hmot), then you never have to synch that word again. Even if the character pronounces the word longer or shorter next time just resize the clip in Motion Mixer.
Cuts most of the work out of out lip-synching, in the long run you'll just have a library of 'word' clips to match to the dialog.

whattawa
06-16-2003, 06:06 PM
Mirai has had morphs for a long time, but those that have used it will all agree, morphs are much easier in LW than they are in Mirai. And the trickle-down affect from modifying the base is better in LW, as well. At least when you cut up the base when there are a bunch of morphs on it.

I would really like to see rotational morphs in LW. I've never seen them work all that well in Mirai, but it would be a great thing that would make LW even better. Then we wouldn't have to use expressions or bones combined with morphs to do them right.

faulknermano
06-17-2003, 02:32 AM
Originally posted by whattawa

I would really like to see rotational morphs in LW. I've never seen them work all that well in Mirai, but it would be a great thing that would make LW even better. Then we wouldn't have to use expressions or bones combined with morphs to do them right.

or nonlinear morphs whose interpolation methods you can pick and choose. :)

Mike RB
06-17-2003, 04:54 AM
Lipservice has the nonlinear morphs...

whattawa
06-17-2003, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by faulknermano
or nonlinear morphs whose interpolation methods you can pick and choose. :)

Yes, that would be nice. Wouldn't it be great if you could either have a spline to guide it or even the same settings as you have for falloff in some of the other tools...

PolyMangler
06-17-2003, 08:05 PM
gotta say LW morphs have all was rocked, i came from max and was stunned you weren't locked in your model once you made your morphs and damn is it handy..i still haven't learned all the in's and out's but they're all good in my book......even the bit i dabbed in maya i didn't really see any advantage to using thier morphers

WesComan
06-18-2003, 11:04 AM
I may be wrong but I think xsi has something similar to endomorphs but they don't call it a particular thing...it's just part of the morphing system, you create a morph target, change the base model and the morph will still work. But yeah, endomorphs are a great technology, they have been a life saver in the past.

If you are using messiah just use the EndoSplit2 lscript from www.hurleyworks.com It seperates out all the morph tgts and removes the vmaps from them to keep the file size down. If you change the base model just run the script again and over write the morph tgts. :)

ambient-whisper
06-18-2003, 12:56 PM
Mirai has had morphs for a long time, but those that have used it will all agree, morphs are much easier in LW than they are in Mirai. And the trickle-down affect from modifying the base is better in LW, as well. At least when you cut up the base when there are a bunch of morphs on it.

how so? in mirai you get a kickass magnet system that has multiple falloff routines. like along surface and not just a view radius. you can always do stuff like rotate a jaw using a selection+a falloff.

also. the mirais morphs can store multiple axes for your morphs. so for example. say you initlally only save the jaw rotation. well if you go back to that morph after saving it and add linear changes and update that morph. then both of the axes will be saved.( or atleast thats how it looked from the fes tests ive done regarding the matter.

the way i do my uvs is actually a simpler way than meni too :) ( but im pretty sure it should work with endos as well

instead of uving the final mesh to morph into a paintable state. you can unfold your model when it is still really low poly. save that morph.

then continue on modelling it..add detail.. whatever.. until you are finished. then you use that old morph from when your model was still low poly and it will unwrap very nicely. youll have to do some tweaks in the end but its much easier than menis described method :)

the main thing that usually confuses people that are new to mirai is that every morph has a shape that it is derived from. all you have to do is tell mirai to update its morphs from such and such shape and itll act just fine. since you can store a bunch of absolute shapes and morphs. you can quickly switch between which the morphs will be derived from/relative to.

Mwai Kasamale:
Mwai Kasamale: The only app that ca do this with the built-in morphing tools. Maya's blendshapes can't perform blendshapes that allow a solid object to seperate its faces, I'm not sure about XSI but I doubt it.

houdini can do that very easily:) except you dont need to morph. you can do that particular thing with the extrude node. it gives you the same options to do what you did there.

ajk48n
06-18-2003, 07:16 PM
I'm not quite sure, but I think the reason Lightwave is one of the only programs which has moprh targets set up the way they are, is because there is no history. In Maya and other programs with history, the morph tagets work by having the base mesh go through a node, which calculates the blend shapes. In Lightwave, there isn't a node architecture with , so th epoints all hold their own information about the morph targets, which is why you can change the base model. It would be great if the 2 systems could somehow work together.

whattawa
06-18-2003, 07:40 PM
When using Mirai, if you want to view morphs it is a pain. In Lightwave it is as simple as a drop-down. That's what I meant by it being more difficult. Also, there are issues that come up when cutting up mesh in Mirai after UVs are already made, but we never have those problems in LW.

One thing that is hard for a LWer to get used to with Mirai, however, is how you change your model and then once it is done you tell it to save the state as a morph. Not that it is the wrong way, but my brain does like that the base is selected by default and if you want to create a morph you name it and go. That is only a matter of personal preference, though. It sure is fun to see someone come from Mirai to LW and have them deal with morphs, though! :)

Oh yeah, but I do really like all the different axes options in Mirai. We need some of those in LW.

RichSuchy
06-18-2003, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by Mike RB
http://www.3dluvr.com/blackbourn/web/LWEndomorphs.avi
5mb divx 5.03

the morph solution in other packages cant really do a lot of base model editing and have the effect translate to all the morphs...

Mike

That works in a linear fashon and you can really screw up all your targets that way. I know from several years of experience in production... A nice thing about Marai is that it can keep rotational edits in mind in a procedural way so that your morphs ared screwed up my changing the base model.

In cases like this is nearly as easy to apply a morph target to do modify the model and then save out the resultant changes, either way .

If you actually change the point order, you can aply your morphs to the new model via a wrap deformer. then save out the resultant models, tweaking where needed.

Its a diferent workflow but for all that latices and wrap deformers give, me Id rather have them than endomorphs.

ambient-whisper
06-18-2003, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by whattawa
When using Mirai, if you want to view morphs it is a pain. In Lightwave it is as simple as a drop-down. That's what I meant by it being more difficult. Also, there are issues that come up when cutting up mesh in Mirai after UVs are already made, but we never have those problems in LW.

One thing that is hard for a LWer to get used to with Mirai, however, is how you change your model and then once it is done you tell it to save the state as a morph. Not that it is the wrong way, but my brain does like that the base is selected by default and if you want to create a morph you name it and go. That is only a matter of personal preference, though. It sure is fun to see someone come from Mirai to LW and have them deal with morphs, though! :)

Oh yeah, but I do really like all the different axes options in Mirai. We need some of those in LW.

:) you can always check the info bar for more options ;) theres an option if you right click you can bring up a mixer. drop in a few morphs and mix away. thats another thing many people miss. is not looking at all the options available for the menu items.

also when you separate the mesh the uvs are fine. atleast for me anyway :) but yeah. more apps need this approach cuz the blendshape method is kinda dated.

faulknermano
06-19-2003, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by Rich Suchy
That works in a linear fashon and you can really screw up all your targets that way. I know from several years of experience in production... A nice thing about Marai is that it can keep rotational edits in mind in a procedural way so that your morphs ared screwed up my changing the base model.

heh. lightwave can do this. and its quite 'easy' to do it, too. :P

Mike RB
06-19-2003, 02:01 PM
So I guess we agree.... the "Mirai"/"LW" way is better than the "Maya"/"XSI"/"Soft"/"MAX" way...

:)

RichSuchy
06-19-2003, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by faulknermano
heh. lightwave can do this. and its quite 'easy' to do it, too. :P

When did lightwave start keeping nonlinear oint edits in its morpf calculations. To my knowlege Lightwave cant because it has no way to account for history... for instance if you stretch a jaw down on your base model. that is to say vertically, the meshs thar rotate the model in the jaw area, are warped because they are also translated vertically rather than they should be... in a radial way.

In Maya i could use a latice to make my edits and fix the latice which has fewer points, and just copy the frozen geometry to another blend shape... I think you are all missing the power of how this works. I used all those lightwave features and I'm telling you. Mirais are better. AND the workaround in Maya loses something in spead but gains it back when you have to tweak all your distorted targets.... AND in Lightwave, unless the morph is directly virtical or horizontal, adjusting your base mesh WILL distort the model.

whattawa
06-19-2003, 05:27 PM
Well, I agree, Mirai and LW are the way to go. Actually, that's how our workflow goes here. Half our modelers do most of their modeling in Mirai and then bring it into LW for some of the finishing touches. The other half of us do our work in LW and then occasionally send them over to the Mirai guys to finish up. Maybe Newtek and Izware should get together and make the interface more seamless? :)

faulknermano
06-21-2003, 04:13 AM
Originally posted by Rich Suchy
When did lightwave start keeping nonlinear oint edits in its morpf calculations.


i didnt mean rotation morphs. :D i meant not screwing up your endomorphs when you edit the base mesh. you can have it both ways in lightwave.

however, i know the advantages of what you are describing. but i think you're comparing technologies across different types. endomorphs do not operate in the same way as deformers. neither does it operate in the same way as maya's blendshapes (which, no matter how i put it, are just inferior). deformers act externally. blendshapes and endomorphs are internal.

however, i like the fact that you can overlap stuff in maya. now, if only blendshapes in maya were like endomorphs, and that these endos could serve as deformers. in lightwave, admittedly, this is very difficult to do. the closest i got was to use motion designer to do the lattic-ing. in maya, just tie in the mesh to the deformer, and the deformer into a blendshape and you're good to go.

AND in Lightwave, unless the morph is directly virtical or horizontal, adjusting your base mesh WILL distort the model.

you should check lightwave's absolute morphs out. again, this is not an issue. lightwave need not distort the model if you know what you are doing.

faulknermano
06-21-2003, 04:22 AM
btw: remember that endomorphs is just an implementation of "VMap technology". why i am all praises for endomorphs is because it is not quite difficult to implement rotation morphs into a plugin using VMap technology. if anyone recalls i did a nonlinear morph lscript that applied a spline algo that was tied to a couple of endomorphs. rotational morphs are even easier to do. the extensibility of this aspec to of lightwave is great.

the main rub, however, is the ability of MODELER to use endomorphs _natively_. in layout, there is no problem. but modeler is 'static' and while a programmer can somehow create an interface for view rotational morphs, i forsee it to be a clunky hack.

RichSuchy
06-21-2003, 07:43 AM
Originally posted by faulknermano
btw: remember that endomorphs is just an implementation of "VMap technology". why i am all praises for endomorphs is because it is not quite difficult to implement rotation morphs into a plugin using VMap technology. if anyone recalls i did a nonlinear morph lscript that applied a spline algo that was tied to a couple of endomorphs. rotational morphs are even easier to do. the extensibility of this aspec to of lightwave is great.

the main rub, however, is the ability of MODELER to use endomorphs _natively_. in layout, there is no problem. but modeler is 'static' and while a programmer can somehow create an interface for view rotational morphs, i forsee it to be a clunky hack.

back when I used lightwave only, I asked Newtek (while I worked on Max Steel for Foundation Imaging, for that procedural morphing to be available so that rotational morphs could be figured into the mix... it never happened in the years later. I was asked what Newtek could do to Lightwave to make it better. I suggested a blending modeler and layout so I could key-frame modeling adjustments, like for instance, keyframing points. I also wanted a quick way to record morph targets into set driven key relationships with bone positions... I was told about many step workarounds that were not practical, rather than just implementing what I suggested which would have helped our pipeling get better on a tv schedule. Its nice that Our team was asked what we thought, Its quite another thing to have your requests then ignored as not needed. After all we were asked because we knew what we needed. or at least that was the stated reason.

It just so happens mirai, had these features already. I guess WETA knew something about this.

lwbob
06-21-2003, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by Rich Suchy

In Maya i could use a latice to make my edits and fix the latice...

Wow, wouldn't that almost be like using motion designer, bones, displacement plugins, messiah or whatever else to correct a morph in LW? I guess we got way off from talking about endomorphs vs. seperate morph target objects.

lwbob
06-21-2003, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by Rich Suchy
... it never happened in the years later. I was asked what Newtek could do to Lightwave to make it better. --- Its nice that Our team was asked what we thought, Its quite another thing to have your requests then ignored as not needed.


As wgreenlee1 would say
"enhancements"

:hmm:

RichSuchy
06-21-2003, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by lwbob
Wow, wouldn't that almost be like using motion designer, bones, displacement plugins, messiah or whatever else to correct a morph in LW? I guess we got way off from talking about endomorphs vs. seperate morph target objects.

not really. one is latices are handy and available to you at any time in the process and are very flexible and even animatable if you like.

THose other methods you mention require more work as they are somewhat disconnected from modeler, where you do you work on the model. Its a question of ease and flexability.

SO on the one hand you have an easy way to work with morphs in a linear fashon at the moment in LW. however reliance on it still requires on all your radial derived targets such as a jaw movement, for you to unwarp your model or what I would do, redo those radial morphs from scratch so to avoid distortion...

or in MAya, a little more work with your morph set but the flexablity to work out a method to keep radial motion dispite changes in the model...

One is better for certain specific instances and the other is better for flexability.

you choose what you want, but if you were to work on a movie where precision is more important, you might choose the more flexible tool-set.

RichSuchy
06-21-2003, 08:04 AM
by the way. I like Lightwave a lot, having used it for quite some time... but sometimes I see these posts and feel someone with experience in both programs and more should play devils advocate and keep you all honest. Otherwise there is a tendency to assume that what you know is all there is, and you miss what is possible.

j3st3r
06-21-2003, 09:00 AM
Hello guys.

My opinion is that LW modeller is a kick ass tool. Endomorph is a great tool, among the best. I like a lot that I can modify the bas object and the changes are reflected on the targets. It`s a great-great tool. But it needs improvement. The nonlinear capability would be the most important.

My experience with lightwavers is that there are two team:
1. Idealists who think LW is good as is, there is no need any drastic changes, and all in all LW is the best among of them

2. Realists, who think LW is a great tool, but it needs drastic changes in certain area to compete with others.

My personal opinion is that XSI stands now the most close to the ideal application. I`m working with Maya, but I think it needs drastic changes as well. It has great capabilities, but it has a little max-feeling with it. I don`t like it`s polygonmodelling toolset.

Of Mirai I can say nothing. I`ve asked for an evaluation copy, but no answer...I see izware site is down, so I don`t trust in Mirai`s future.

I`m curiuous about LW`s future, I think this summer will decide what will be LW`s future. I`m afraid that more user will migrate FROM LW than this before, if Newtek doesn`t listen to the realist user base.

Personal opinion again:
To me, LW is tha best for modelling
Maya is cool for UV and rig
XSI is cool for UV Rig, and Render...perhaps if modelling tools I like in LW will be available in XSI, I would choose XSI to work with...

Anyway, Endomorphs rulez, and there are always workaround for a given problem. Here the nonlinear morphing.

faulknermano
06-21-2003, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by Rich Suchy
. I also wanted a quick way to record morph targets into set driven key relationships with bone positions... I was told about many step workarounds that were not practical, rather than just implementing what I suggested which would have helped our pipeling get better on a tv schedule.

well say no more about set driven key. lightwave doesnt really provide the underlying architecture that would make it easy to do so. i did create a set driven key script to imitate maya's (because i like the maya does it), but it was 1.) hard to do, 2.) not so robust because of how the channels are accessed (remember that for every channel a script is loaded and thus memory is allocated for it by lscript - maybe an SDK-version would fare better).

but sometimes I see these posts and feel someone with experience in both programs and more should play devils advocate and keep you all honest.

fwiw: i have production experience in both maya and lightwave, but i started with lightwave (presumably like you did), and have worked with it considerably more. and i am honest.. really... :)

however, you digress somewhat: endomorphs is step forward. the whole concept of VMaps is a step forward from UV mapping. when it comes to deformers (external displacement modifiers), lightwave has none of it, and truly lacks in that area. but 'pound for pound' you cant really seriously compare morph-target -tech with endomorphs.. really. :)

to readdress you rotational morph issue, if your team insists on working in a defined workflow (which, obviously, i sympathize with), and if newtek does not implement lightwave in such a way that satisfies the workflow you either 1.) write plugs, or 2.) move to an application that has that.

with rotational morphs, PER SE, it is possible to implement them using the SDK or even lscript. i can actually think of a way to satisfy your workflow requirements based on what you have said thus far about rotational morphs plus having to edit your base mesh. i cannot, however, think of ideas regarding lattices and such. those stuffs belong to newtek's sphere. :)

Nemoid
06-21-2003, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by Rich Suchy
back when I used lightwave only, I asked Newtek (while I worked on Max Steel for Foundation Imaging, for that procedural morphing to be available so that rotational morphs could be figured into the mix... it never happened in the years later. I was asked what Newtek could do to Lightwave to make it better. I suggested a blending modeler and layout so I could key-frame modeling adjustments, like for instance, keyframing points. I also wanted a quick way to record morph targets into set driven key relationships with bone positions... I was told about many step workarounds that were not practical, rather than just implementing what I suggested which would have helped our pipeling get better on a tv schedule. Its nice that Our team was asked what we thought, Its quite another thing to have your requests then ignored as not needed. After all we were asked because we knew what we needed. or at least that was the stated reason.

It just so happens mirai, had these features already. I guess WETA knew something about this.

I see the prob. that's why i always said thet integration between Layout and Modeler is the most needed "feature" to solve this kinda question. i dunno what at Nt they think, but the possibility to extend Lw power with this integration really amazes me.

since the separation of Layout- Modeler comes from the way Lw was born, i dunno if its possible to blend them.

endomorph are great, though. the way in wich they are organized is good and functional for an animator.

Mike RB
06-22-2003, 03:25 AM
faulknermano: Rotational morphs would kick butt....

:)

Mike

faulknermano
06-22-2003, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by Mike RB
faulknermano: Rotational morphs would kick butt....

:)

Mike

and what are you telling me that for? i told you, i'm retired. haha!:D :airguitar

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