Assasin

[hdri]

Close_up of the image;http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3013/2942655008_f0b4d8c980.jpg?v=0

[CybrGfx]

The blood doesn't look like blood, that's for sure.

It appears to be emanating from the knife handle for the patterns on the knife blade, and the patterns on the arms look like some sort of bizarre opera gloves...

The anatomy is bad in the neck and head area, the mouth is off-kilter, and he has no real lower jaw, just a chin on top of a huge, lumpy neck...

What little lighting you've intimated is inconsistent, with the blue tones added to the hand just one more bit of visual incredulity.

But hey, since it's just "for fun," reality and believabilty can arguably be suspended, eh? If you have a concept behind this, it's not coming across very well...But perhaps that will improve as this WIP progresses.

~C

[hdri]

Hello, CybrGfx:
I agree: the blood comes from... Where does it come from? Maybe the character has just slaughtered somebody, and, in that case, the blood pattern isn't so unjustified.

I absolutely agree: the neck and head anatomy isn't well drawn. I thank you -sincerely-, this critic will help me to redraw this part.

And of course the blood doesn't look like blood. This is why it is a wip.

The blue strokes on the hand are just doodles trying to find a lighting mood. I'm still on the way! But, hey! thanks, anyway, your critics helped me alot to improve! Just please don't be so hard; I'm working on it!

Thanks alot!

[CybrGfx]

Hello, CybrGfx:
I agree: the blood comes from... Where does it come from? Maybe the character has just slaughtered somebody, and, in that case, the blood pattern isn't so unjustified.Bad argument. Even "fake" blood, with corn syrup and color, does not flow in such a clingy, strand-like pattern. And, if it were from ANY type of slaughter, would there not be blood quite literally ALL OVER THE PLACE? we're not talking an oozing blade hilt with thick clingy goo, we'd be talking blood splattered, pooled, dripping, puddling EVERYWHERE...
Nope. the blood looks NOTHING like blood. Your argument falls flat.I absolutely agree: the neck and head anatomy isn't well drawn. I thank you -sincerely-, this critic will help me to redraw this part.You are most welcome. That is the purpose of these forums, to help.And of course the blood doesn't look like blood. This is why it is a wip.Then why do you work so hard to make lame excuses for it? (I know, as an artist is it ALWAYS hard to have your efforts denigrated...)The blue strokes on the hand are just doodles trying to find a lighting mood. I'm still on the way! And THAT is why I hate trying to crit a "for fun" work. There is no thought, no PLAN behind the image. Mistakes are excused (badly) and justified as "doodles." Doodles are fine, they help you learn, but are a waste of my time in trying to help you correct them...

You don't even have an established light source. Blue doodles do nothing to clarify that problem... They also do an extremely poor job of "establishing a mood" when the rest of the image shows absolutely NO effect of the blue on the hand...That would be detail, at best, not a "mood establisher..."It is another lame excuse.

Excuses only sound good to the people who make them. As the artist, you need not make excuses for your own actions, because the viewer will only take away from your image what you provide them to see. All the excuses for mistakes or omissions will never be heard in the end, so you are only trying to convince yourself that your mistakes are not acutally mistakes, but just look like them...But, hey! thanks, anyway, your critics helped me alot to improve! Just please don't be so hard; I'm working on it!You CLAIM to be an Art Director, yet honestly pointing out some very glaring visual errors has you crying that I'm "so hard?" They certainly don't make Art Directors like they used to...

My apologies for offending your delicate artist sensiblities. Had I paid closer attention, and seen that it was an Art Director submitting this piece of fluff with the comment of "C&Cs are all welcome, as usual," but meaning "GENTLE C&Cs welcome," I would have spared us both the time expended...My Bad. I won't repeat the mistake, thank you.

~C

[Helenlyn]

Well, the purpose of the picture isn't clear to me.
Why is he looking at his hand with such a horrified expression? Did he cut himself? What kind of assassin runs around topless and cuts himself? Maybe if there were some (obvious) clue as to what he's looking at, viewers would understand what's happening in the picture better. Also the lighting is not good. Before you go on, you should establish a light source, fix the inconsistencies, and then move on.

[secretasianman]

my prob is that most mass anime and comic book series is taking it's toll on how people draw.

when it comes to blood from stabs or bodies just wanting to explode they throw out mass amounts without the thought of how it does come out and why.

anime flicks are the biggest fault in alot of it b/c we all know those crazy anime developers love blood violently rocketing out of wounds and orafaces, and most should no that it is not conceiveable for the body to actually expend that much with the fact of how much the body holds.

if you want to simulate blood then take a viscous substance that emulates blood and try immatating it, by dripping it on you or pouring it in spots. watch it how it reacts to surfaces and to gravity.

It's actually kinda fun.

[CybrGfx]

Having accidentally gouged my thumb this afternoon, and merrily dripping blood as I went to the kitchen to grab a paper towel and cold water to minimize the mess as I then went for bandages, I can tell you that fresh blood is a lot less viscous than you think. It is less thick than cream, but more thick than milk...(half and half? :))

Wiping up the mess, and watching the consistency on the table, floor and countertop, I can also emphatically state that a little blood can look like a lot more...lol! Maybe 10-12 drops, and it looked like I'd been attacked...

But yes, tons of mediocre to bad manga and animé has not helped artists render blood in any sort of beleiveable manner...It's one of those things ref photos are hard to come by, and you have to experience the consistency and viscosity to truly understand it...Not worth the pain or the clean up, if you ask me...My thumb hurts too damn much to want to paint now, anyway.

~C

[EndoTouch]

I'm really just a browser (sorry an excuse) but really reading this thread is something odd. Really why are there critiques here to anatomy, its a cartoon style if anything. The colour, again, is a cartoon style if anything. The blue looks good in that it makes the meat of the hand appear exposed. As a stylistic piece I love the colour. Anyway I'm not going to try to put the picture back together. I'd like to see the drawing coloured in the style its started in. The hand and blood are visually apealing. If you press back and click a diferent thread Im sure theres going to be some garbage not worth looking at, it is an internet forum where everyone puts work up. Cybr really picked a fight here I think after his first post and he did it out of nothing. If your not ready to work with a person on something then don't start. Anyway My real two cents is that the colour is good but the face isn't atractive or repulsive. The face does not seem to pull anything in other than its disfigurement. Good look.

[secretasianman]

endo it's not the face that is the real prob it is the positioning of the neck and lower jaw.

does everyone here know tod mcfarlane? alot of people love to hate his anatomy b/c he draws people like they have no backbone. i remember when spawn first came out and people imitated him it was horrid. great thought and design but bad anatomy. even if you have a cartoon character it has to have some rules on how it moves it cant just be made of jelly.

as for cyber you have to get used to her, she says what she thinks no sugar coating. when you do art especially here you have to get used to criticism, if not then why are you posting and asking for crits. a big reason why people post here, this place has more professional artists here then most of any other forum out there. alot like the crits from people that know what they are doing or saying. well and alot like to put their stuff up b/c they think they might score with someone in the industry. last one i care not f i just love to doodle.

artists actually strive off each other, if you just sat in your room all day doin what you think is right with no help then unless your really gifted you are prolly innacutrate.

my thing is is that i really want to know the jist of it , and why did he name it assasin if it is a guy with a knife surprised at his own blood. looks like failed suicide.

[korthuran]

even if you have a cartoon character it has to have some rules on how it moves it cant just be made of jelly.


Well it can but your right that it shouldn't. That style is pretty much what rubberhose animation was. But in fairness it was only because of a lack of information/knowledge and an audience fascinated by the fact that a drawing was moving. There is no screen innocence anymore since we've all grown up with cartoons. I don't think I've seen anything contemporary using the style. Definately not recommended unless you really know what your doing.

[Kirt]

I'm really just a browser (sorry an excuse) but really reading this thread is something odd. Really why are there critiques here to anatomy, its a cartoon style if anything. The colour, again, is a cartoon style if anything. The blue looks good in that it makes the meat of the hand appear exposed. As a stylistic piece I love the colour. Anyway I'm not going to try to put the picture back together. I'd like to see the drawing coloured in the style its started in. The hand and blood are visually apealing. If you press back and click a diferent thread Im sure theres going to be some garbage not worth looking at, it is an internet forum where everyone puts work up. Cybr really picked a fight here I think after his first post and he did it out of nothing. If your not ready to work with a person on something then don't start. Anyway My real two cents is that the colour is good but the face isn't atractive or repulsive. The face does not seem to pull anything in other than its disfigurement. Good look.
You were fine with just this. The part that I blocked out ... not very courteous and polite. Please read the posting rules before hitting the "Submit Reply" button. And do it everytime.

Remember folks, we're here to critique the art not each other. Play nice or deal with the consequences. Thank you.

[CybrGfx]

Interesting comparison to rubber hose animation, not too many people know about it anymore...(here (http://duck-walk.blogspot.com/2006/04/rubber-hose-animationswing-you-sinners_26.html) is a blog related to RH animation, for those interested in seeing some examples from the "Olden days..." ;) )

I think you're right about it not seeing much use in contemporary images. I don't know if it because we've become jaded with all the factual images and technology now available to create works, so we expect a higher level of "realism," or whether it's just a cultural matter to have things more detailed and "real," even in caricatures and character concepts...Look how much Mortimer Mouse evolved into the present day "Mickey..."

Edit: Tom Neely (http://www.iwilldestroyyou.com/art.html) is an animator who uses the RH animation style with a modern twist on it...

~C

[EndoTouch]

Alright, well I will pay more attention to what I say then.
I always liked todd mcfarlane's work with spawn, though I must admit I did not know who he was until now.
Cyber does seem to have her own way with crits. After reading more of her posts I do see that Cyber is a very helpfull person and I won't bring up this kind of thing about cyber again, my apologies. I think hdri would most likely be very wise to pay attention to cyber.
I'll leave it there and not further derail the thread.

[Prischool]

Personally, it's still too early to tell what's going on in this pic, but though i do agree that the blood does not seem realistic, it's not something i would necessarily change altogether. Judging by the anatomy, the painting seems to be leaning towards exaggerated and slightly characature-like style. If the anatomy is not realistic, I don't see why there's a rule for the blood to be realistic if this is all developed under a particular toony style. Really it's about visual appeal, not realism. If someone tries to make a photorealistic painting, than there are obviously problems here. But if someone is leaning towards more of a comic book style, there are, of course, artistic liberties. And looking at the blood, I can still tell it's meant to be blood, it's just styled differently (i've seen this before in numerous comic books that mix the realistic and toony style together), but i get the idea and concept of it. And it doesn't phase me that because it doesn't smear like blood properly that it makes this painting less believable that this person obviously killed someone. I think the painting needs to progress a bit more before giving critiques about the blood because the style of the painting is still not developed, yet.

Course though, this is just my opinion.

[CybrGfx]

Personally, it's still too early to tell what's going on in this pic, but though i do agree that the blood does not seem realistic, it's not something i would necessarily change altogether. Judging by the anatomy, the painting seems to be leaning towards exaggerated and slightly characature-like style. If the anatomy is not realistic, I don't see why there's a rule for the blood to be realistic if this is all developed under a particular toony style. Really it's about visual appeal, not realism. If someone tries to make a photorealistic painting, than there are obviously problems here. But if someone is leaning towards more of a comic book style, there are, of course, artistic liberties. And looking at the blood, I can still tell it's meant to be blood, it's just styled differently (i've seen this before in numerous comic books that mix the realistic and toony style together), but i get the idea and concept of it. And it doesn't phase me that because it doesn't smear like blood properly that it makes this painting less believable that this person obviously killed someone. I think the painting needs to progress a bit more before giving critiques about the blood because the style of the painting is still not developed, yet.

Course though, this is just my opinion.A lot of "ifs" and assumptions there...

By your reasoning, why should this even have been posted then?
THIS IS THE CRITIQUE FORUM. I do not understand why some of you seem to have a problem with this. It's not like the word "critique" means something other than an act of criticizing (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/criticizing) ; especially : a critical (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/critical) estimate or discussion <a critique of the poet's work>

If an artist posts a work here in the WIP/Critique forum, they are most likely seeking a critique. They are under no obligation to make excuses or changes based upon ANY observations or replies, so there is NO need for you to be defending any artworks here, nor to be criticizing MY observations, Thank You.

If you have a problem with any critiques here on the forums, PLEASE notify a moderator, and stop criticizing me about my observations, when you agree with some of them in the same breath...

~C

[hdri]

THAT is why I hate trying to crit a "for fun" work.
Your argument falls flat
as an artist is it ALWAYS hard to have your efforts denigrated...
And THAT is why I hate trying to crit a "for fun" work.

Please, don't freely do what you don't want to do.
I clearly advanced that this was just a "for fun" work, and I was doodling.
I don't know where I will go with this drawing, and my particular intention was to exclusively render the hand (so all the critics about the rest of the canvas are nonsense).
I really appreciate the anatomical crits, and I can swear you I'm taking them in account, but you've never asked me what the purpose of the image was, or what was I looking for with it, so please, take it easy.

[Prischool]

Cybrgfx - Yes, this is a crit forum, but this is also a work in progress forum. You gave your opinion about the blood, and i gave my opinion about the blood. If i wasn't clear enough, then i'll be more direct. I think the blood looks nice for what he has so far. If he chooses to go in a more photorealistic path with this piece, then i would change my mind, being that the blood does not look real. The blood looks comicbook style... but so does his illustration, so i do not see the problem. You highlight half of my sentences, but don't acknowledge the other half. You focused on me saying that the blood didn't look realistic, but you ignored the fact that i said that just because it wasn't realistic doesn't mean it was a bad thing. You've highlighted my comment that i feel the piece needs to progress more before critiquing, but ignored the fact that i said that in regards to further comments about the blood, not in general.



As for excuses, if you feel someone is giving excuses and doesn't want to change their work for what you feel is the better, then so what. It's a forum for crits but if they don't want to take that crit, then move on to something else. If they don't want the next crit, then find someone else that will appreciate it. Don't get all huffy and broken-hearted that someone over the internet decided not to do what you SUGGESTED to them.



Either way though, I think you should calm down, dude. You are highly agitated over a simply forum thread. Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean you should be offended and get all heated up with it. Chill out. Smile. :D Maybe this will help.


http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images15/ShiranianPuppy1205thru0206024.JPG

hdri - Sorry this comment got so off topic. Hope to see more work! :)

[secretasianman]

you've never asked me what the purpose of the image was, or what was I looking for with it, so please, take it easy.

so umm what is the purpose.

I was goin to say it differently but i think it would not have been so nice.

:p

[phoenix]

Hey Hdri nice work man

i really like the way blood thing all around his arm. the treatment is nice. like the halo on the hand, the brightness is nice, colors are good...i do agree with the name thing that assassin doesn't fits the character that is the way he is freaked out.

Overall feel is cool and nice

Good work

[voltageme5]

i agree with Prischool.

BLOOD
When i first saw the image i immediately recognized the blood and felt that the image wasn't meant to be a realistic rendering so the "viscosity" of the blood didn't bother me. Plus the presence of the knife helps to decipher what the liquid is on his arm, along with the color. You could make an argument that it doesn't look real and most would agree, but we have to also remember what the intentions of the artist are. Though they haven't been explicitly told to us we can assume that he intends to display a loose or "cartoonish" style that shows representation rather than realism.

JAW
Anatomically speaking this is a weak area but again, with the artists style it doesn't bother me much.

CONCEPT
This is the weakest area. As a viewer I really have no idea what the heck is going on in the image. To me it looks like he slit his own wrists in an attempt to end his life. Nowhere in the image do I read "Assassin" and this is the area that I think needs the most work. Someone else asked why he was shirtless and I find myself asking the same question.

QUESTIONS
1.) Why is he shirtless?
2.) What is he looking at?
3.) Why is he looking there?
4.) What is he so shocked about?
5.) Why is he holding that particular knife? Do we need to know something about it?

Making some subtle changes to the figure would help a bit but maybe you could answer many questions by adding some imagery to the background?

;)

Jesse

[Evicted]

I think part of posting in a WIP/critique forum is being able to handle critique when it comes, and not make up excuses to justify the mistakes you are blind to. For an artist who is looking to improve their works, one must be able to step inside another person's shoes and try to understand what they are saying about the overall image. People post critique usually to help the person improve it.
You only have YOUR set of eyes. You cannot rely on yours alone and wave off the millions of other eyes viewing your piece. You must take them into consideration if you want to step outside of art's limits. If you want to stay with one *redundant* style, then that is another thing.
But the key to improving is facing the music.

The critiques have been said already.
Anyhow, my two cents:

If you chose to post this piece to only render the hand, then you should have only posted the hand.
Why do you think you are getting critiques on anatomy? Well, duh, you posted the entire picture which incoporates anatomy! You're telling us you want help with it by posting it. Then you get offended because people are critiquing it.

Secondly, you should have stated what the purpose was and what you were looking for in your piece. You just left your audience COMPLETELY oblivious and then you get offended when people "didn't ask".

What bothers me the most is your whole concept that "crits on the rest of the canvas are nonsense".
No. They. Aren't. You posted the entire canvas, so people are telling you what's wrong with it, in their opinion. Therefore their critiques are justified. You never mentioned that you wanted particular help with one item in your first post.
You even said, "C&C's are all welcome, as usual."
So Cybr posts what he thinks is wrong, and you give birth to a cow by waving it off. You say, "Don't be so hard?" (trust me, he wasn't trying to personally jab at you, he was trying to help like most of everyone else in this forum.)
And didn't you just say C&C's are all welcome?

I'm not trying to put you as the "bad guy" here, I'm just wanting you to see why this whole argument has accumulated. Basically, you stated things that you didn't stick to, and you didn't state things that you think you've stuck to.
So just take it easy--you should respect people's opinions and not always try to justify them to put yourself in the right.
And don't let it put you off art! Sure, you'll feel down and dismissed for a while, but it's the whole process of improvement, which is a beautiful thing.

I do think this piece has a long stretch to run in terms of believability, but if you tell us your ideas, aspirations, and specific concept behind this piece, I think this could turn out to be a shocking image (in a good way).

[hdri]

Hello everybody,

Of course I accept critics; that's why I put C&C 'r welcome at the beginning.
but I'm finaly finding out that critics don't accept critics. (T. S. Eliot wrote something about "To criticize the critic")
At the very beginning I said that I didn't know what path this was going to take. So, if I were going to criticize, I would wait until I knew the way it takes.
I've found lots of unpolite answers in the posts I never expected to. Such as: You only have YOUR set of eyes; why should this even have been posted then? tons of mediocre to bad manga and animé has not helped artists render blood in any sort of beleiveable manner... ; reality and believabilty can arguably be suspended, eh? ; why do you work so hard to make lame excuses for it? ; You CLAIM to be an Art Director,; My apologies for offending your delicate artist sensiblities ;
At the end, I was simply posting a WIP image just to take some sort of inspiration from people on the forum, just people who want to make me improve. I'm not interested on critics who are unable to accept crits from their critics, that's weird!.
So, another WIP image. Please, be polite; you can criticize, but I'd love not to be offended. If possible.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3287/2955078365_e67e9a6902.jpg?v=0

[Evicted]

Thank you for even considering what I was saying as a whole...wow. Grand points for you. I feel so acknowledged.

I don't think they are *impolite* rather than bluntly stating what they see. People were also offended by your manner of shrugging critique off your shoulders. If people are going to be all nice about it, then you won't improve or view your art in a different respect.
If everyone here just clapped their hands together and smiled, pointing out little mistakes here and there, this piece would get no where.

As one of my art teachers told me, "If you aren't frustrated at one point or another with your art, or not offended by what people say about it, then you will never improve your art techniques and style".
In fact, you'll just have a large accumulated ego that is blind to improvement and different ideas.

Good luck, though, however you'd like to approach it. Each to his own.

[malibubob]

your stuff is great! keep it up

[hdri]

Hello, fellows,
Another WIP of the same 'project'.
I must say -for those who haven't followed the thread- that it is just for the fun of it, and for playing around with Artrage, wich I I'm taking it into consideration since I've been working with it, and I find some effects pretty realistic compared with analogic" oil and acrylic.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3271/2964567139_5c4848f740.jpg?v=0

[fluxist8070]

nice pic...it looks experimental. Color choices are nice. It puts me in mind of a guy that accidentally cuts himself to find that he does not bleed blood, but he bleeds paint.

I think the image was nicer before you decided to develop the cranium.

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