General Modeling Help with P-40 Model

[csutcliffe]

Generally speaking, when creating mechanical hard surface models, you will start with a low poly base mesh then apply a smooth or convert to suv division surfaces. As your base mesh is quite high polygon you're going to have trouble attaching the wings and keeping everything smooth. If I were you. I would literally start the whole model again from scratch. Check out some of the WIP forums for things like cars, planes and mechanical objects so see how they generally get constructed.

I f you want to persist with the existing model then I would suggest using a boolean operation and hopefully the normals won't look too bad. If you want to apply a smooth thereafter you're going to need to do a lot of tweaking verts, and splitting edges to make sure that you don't get dings and pinch points in the surface.

[gnomadix]

But don't despair too much

if you've put a lot of work into this and you're happy
with the proportions and basic shapes then don't start
from scratch- you can retopologise using z-brush (30 day trial )or topogun
to knock it back into a controllable base mesh

you can also use Rhino (30 day trial )to revese engineer the shapes and extract nurbs
data:
RhinoResurf for Rhino is a reverse engineering plug-in for Rhinoceros® 3.0 and 4.0. This plug-in gives Rhino the ability to reconstruct the geometry of an object from a mesh or point cloud which describes it.

Worst option use Maya 'make live' and throw nurbs control curves over the mesh

or ....... you could just start again.......cough ...

If you can build in a survival approach when modelling from the ground up
you don't lose the impulse that made you want to do itin the first place


good luck

[DanBroughton]

What about extruding the wings from the body, using the wings you have already as a guide.

Might be the quickest option.

Cheers Dan

[GQmonsieurGQ]

Well I haven't applied any sort of smooth yet. I imagine I would wait until the end to do that. I have spent quite a lot of time on the fuselage so I would like to save it if I can. I do have Zbrush but wouldn't I want until the end to do smoothing and all that? I was just wondering how to attach pieces together first.

[gnomadix]

sorry,

I wasn't being clear I think the original point was, that although you've made a good model
your picture shows 100 odd edges on the wing trying to connect to 30 irregular faces on the fuselage which would be quite difficult to join seamlessly: -try it

If your wing and fuselage are initially a simpler base mesh with a low poly count they will be
much easier to merge. Then once merged you can refine the shapes by increasing the mesh
size

Zbrush isn't just a program to add detail: it also allows you to re-draw a simple mesh onto a overly complex model and try again. As you say once your happy with proportion etc you would finalise the mesh by using smooth (keeping history on will allow you to delete the smooth if your not happy with it)

[korthuran]

Question along those lines here.

Would the model be worked with in low poly, textured, and then converted to sub d or smoothed for the final product?

Just trying to understand the work flow of a hard surface model and hopefully help the OP at the same time.

[johnnymoha]

I agree with the idea of just extruding the wings out from the fuselage and using the pre-existing wings as a guide.

[GQmonsieurGQ]

Hey everybody...
Sorry for the lack of an update but I have been busy working. Firstly, thank you to everyone who has responded to me and helped me out so far. So I can officially call this my second model now as I took the advice of many of you and started over. I also found a very helpful tutorial at http://www.colacola.se/wip_p47_model.htm Much thanks to him as well.

I rebuilt the model using as few polys as I could but still achieving the body structure. I've come to find the P-40 has one of the most complex frames out there so my poly count is still a little high but MUCH lower than before. This allowed me to extrude the wings, landing gear housings, stabilizers, etc. However, now I am trying to decided the best way to go about making the depressions for the wheels and the rear fuselage. For both I am not sure whether to cut them out now or wait and cut them out after the subdiv. As I am a new beginning modeler I am still unsure about how to go about adding detail so any further advice would be greatly appreciated.

Here is my models belly where the wheel well cutouts need to go.
http://h1.ripway.com/JustinShephard/MayaHelp/Help5.png
And here is what the cutouts are supposed to look like.
http://h1.ripway.com/JustinShephard/MayaHelp/Wheel_Well_Cut.jpg


And here is the rear fuselage of my model
http://h1.ripway.com/JustinShephard/MayaHelp/Help6.png

And here is what the depression is supposed to look like.
http://h1.ripway.com/JustinShephard/MayaHelp/Fuselage_Cut.jpg


Now I am new so don't laugh but I just learned how to make a "circular" cut in a polygon using two face and the Make Hole tool. But since these cut would spread over more than one face I don't know if that would work. If I deleted all the edges they would cover and make it one face that way I figure my topology would be super screwed up for the subdiv. I'm so lost... HELP!!!

[korthuran]

You need to go into your model and take out a ton of those edges. It's too much geometry to work with effectively.

As for making holes. Think of the hole as the ojbect you are modeling. It's basically a cylinder. You can create a cylinder and delete the ends. This basically inverts it. You now have a hole. You just have to properly attatch it to the model.

There are a lot of ways to do it. That one would be very labor intensive with the amount of geometry you have going on.

Take a look at the wireframes of some organic models for inspiration. Just because this is mechanical doesn't mean it's not made up of some organic shapes. You can use the same edge flow techniques on your plane to create a cleaner mesh.

[scrimski]

Your 'depression' part is quite easy.
Just model the greenhouse including cuts for the windows and model the inner part with a as a single object with some inset from the fuselage.

[DanBroughton]

Loads better. It could still do with a clean up, try and keep you'r poly's as square as possible but on the whole loads better. I tend to make holes by extruding faces into the model and a square hole made from one face will make a round hole when smoothed. I have to say you are progressing well.
Keep it up.

Dan

[GQmonsieurGQ]

Thanks for the encouragement Dan and everybody else. I know I still need to improve more but progress for now. As for reducing the polycount further... I know there are a lot of edge loops in there which is causing the high poly count but I though it was better to put in edge loops as opposed to making cuts because the cuts lead to n-sided polys other than quads. Thus I put in edge loops so I wouldn't get funky creases and what not in the smoothed proxy. Should I overlook that idea and just make cuts where needed in the block out?

[korthuran]

Yes it's better to put in loops than cuts.

However you still don't need that many edges. It takes a lot less than you think and they can be very disorganized and still be nice and smooth without any funkyness. If you look at topology of organic models you'll see that part of using edgeloops is pushing the geometry around to form the shapes, not just cutting the shapes into the mesh.

Also keep in mind that you don't need to make the model all one mesh. The vast majority of models are several different objects and can be thousands.

[GQmonsieurGQ]

Hey everybody,
I have some progress to show you. So I was able to do the wheel well cuts and fuselage depressions (I think). The wheel well cuts were simple. I avoided making any new poly splits or adding any edge loops and instead used an octagonal prism as a guide to moved some points around so I could "intrude" them as holes.
http://h1.ripway.com/JustinShephard/MayaHelp/Help8.png

As for the fuselage depressions I think I am going to have to do some stiching on the subdiv mesh. What I did was basically manipulated a sliced cylinder to make the shape. That gave me the perfect shap I needed. And it just so happened I had some points on the model in the general area as well. Well rather than replacing the cylinder shape faces with the face on the base model, I thought I could just do it after the subdiv poly smooth. Would that work?
http://h1.ripway.com/JustinShephard/MayaHelp/Help9.png

http://h1.ripway.com/JustinShephard/MayaHelp/Help10.png




It seems like it but I guess this would go outside general base modeling help and into the "detail adding" realm. As such, are there generally any rules I should try to adhere to? I figure since I am not going to have to worry about how cuts will affect a smooth anymore since I will have already completed it beforehand. I still have a lot to learn so ANY AND ALL tips are greatly appreciated. Again thanks to everyone who has helped me this far along the way.

[phix314]

Seems your models are very heavy for the amount of cutting you still have to do. I've found with hard surface modeling to get the rough shapes of the indents and whatnot you have to do, smooth once, adjust the points, add support edges, and smooth for render. Helps hold complex shapes much better...imo.

[GQmonsieurGQ]

You mean you smooth more than once? I thought it was just one smooth or subdivide? Then after I would start adding details like gun extrusions, panel lines, etc.

[DanBroughton]

I think what he means is he uses the 3 key to preview the smoothing (Works with Maya 2008, not sure about other versions) and then adds more edges to refine his model and create some sharp details.

It's always best to start with the simplest shapes and then add detail previewing how its going to look once smoothed.

Looking better all the time.

Dan

[GQmonsieurGQ]

Oh ok Dan... Gotcha. Well I think I am done with the general body and now want to add the details like exhaust pipes, guns mounts, etc. Are there any general rules I should try and follow or can I just cut away since I don't need to worry about smoothing it again?

[korthuran]

For a high poly model the extra details will usually be seperate meshes. Only when doing low poly for games do you need to consider keeping it one object.

[phix314]

What I mean is to create the general shape, smooth once, do your cuts and extrusions, and smooth again.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p104/roaphotosharing/Photoshop/smooth.jpg

The bevels were created after the extrusion. The heavier one will hold it's shape better without the need to add more support edges, possibly creating pinches.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p104/roaphotosharing/Photoshop/smooth2.jpg

[korthuran]

Generally when working with a sub d model or a model to be smoothed it is worked with in low poly form. It is viewed in smoothed form by pressing the Number 3 key. The number 1 key reverts the view back to the standard smoothing level.

Only after the model is complete is it permanently smoothed.

[GQmonsieurGQ]

Well yes I know the are multiple meshes... But in the case that I do want to make a cut out of my smoothed base mesh, do I need to follow any unstated rules?

[korthuran]

If you have to make a cut, and can't just create an edgeloop automatically, then cutting by hand is the best way to go. A large indiscriminate cut across the mesh will create a lot of harsh geometry. At least by hand you can control it even if it isn't perfect.

[GQmonsieurGQ]

Sorry... Maybe I am not being specific enough. Say for example I want to make a detail such as this one:

http://www.colacola.se/pix/wip_spit2/spit2_wip_06.jpg

I can't do it in the base mesh otherwise I will get a ton of pinches. So would I make a use my smoothed version of the base model to make cuts into andthen intrude, is there a system or process, etc... ?

[NSF]

I only just came across this tutorial and it's making me rethink the way I've modelled for a long time now, definitely worth a read with a biscuit and a cup of coffee:

http://www.lightwiki.com/Fundamentals_of_Subpatch_Modeling

Now as for the last images you posted from the tutorial you've been working on, I don't know whether I agree with this type of modelling. It looks like they put a complicated mesh into their smoothing result. So they've collapsed down, then detached faces and perhaps applied extra smoothing, seems like a weird way (and dare I say risky) way to go about it.

Monsieur I'd recommend you going out and finding out about smoothing groups. Smoothing groups will set you free. I'm sorry I'm at work so I can't mock up some screen caps to show you how powerful they are but a good understanding of them will accelerate your modelling whilst keeping poly counts low.

When poly modelling your wing, you would highligh all of your wing and give them smoothing group 1, then, for your wheel arch/hole instrusion, the vertical walls of this arch you would highlight and make them only smoothing group 2, not part of smoothing group 1. Then the inside 'floor/ceiling' of the extrusion, these polys could be smoothing group 1 again.

Then in mesh smooth, you can tick on the option to smooth via smoothing groups.

This will greatly reduced the need for chamfering.

I wish I had some pics or links for you. I'm sure a search will turn up something.

Oh wait, here's a fairly verbose description of smoothing groups, still, a good push in the right direction:
http://www.fgiservices.com/Smoothing/Smoothing_home.html

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