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Werner
06-06-2003, 02:48 PM
ok, I got my bones sorted out, but now I want to hide the bones and use Null's (nice item shapes) to control certain bones down my spine. I'm not using IK. I need rotation and movement control over the individual bones.

Look at the attached image...the red arrows indicate which Null should control which bone. I tried follower, but it does not work...it rotates and moves everthing down the chain when I apply it.

any ideas

Remi
06-06-2003, 02:51 PM
apply IK to them perhaps....set the goal object to there respective nulls...turn unaffected by decendents on each one....that might work....it will behave just like it doesn't have IK applied I would think...just an idea..:shrug:

Werner
06-06-2003, 03:01 PM
I've tried that...nope it does'nt work.

I would think that follower should do this, but noooo. I suppose I can grab the spine bones while animating. It will just be easier if can grab a nice green circle (item shapes) to move or rotate the bones.

Nemoid
06-06-2003, 03:55 PM
think that's because u created parented bones so the parent work with the children bones and rotates all.

maybe making goals relative to bones at their connections and turning off IK can work, moving and rotating the goal object should move the bone and its child.

if u have to rotate a bone independently then i think shouldn't be parented. and have child, but i don't find it useful.

fourd
06-06-2003, 03:56 PM
If you want to retain the per spine movement, then use ProxyPicks. It will give you the handle you desire, and direct your selection to the bone it self.

Another way if you want all the bones to rotate or move as one, is to create a null like you have, then use follower or write an expression for each bone to follow the rotation or movement of the null.

fourd
06-06-2003, 03:57 PM
Oh btw..

You may want to create a root null for your mesh. Parent the mesh to the null, then parent your other nulls to the root null. That way when the mesh moves your nulls will follow along with it if you desire that.

webfox
06-06-2003, 05:57 PM
I understand the subtle difference in what you're asking for, Werner.

What you're going to have to do is apply follower twice to each bone, as well as attach a null to the *end* of each bone but the last. You will also have to set up separate control nulls with the easy-to-select item shape plugin applied to each.

Set it up this way:

Mesh > Bone1 > Bone2 > Bone3 > Bone4

Add 3 nulls at 0,0,0

Add 3 more nulls called Control_Null_1, Control_Null_2, and Control_Null_3. Apply your favorite item shape to each.

Parent nulls with Parent in Place OFF this way:

Mesh > Bone1 > Bone2 >Null1 > Bone3 >Null2 > Bone4>Null3

This is just to position the nulls at the beginning of bones 2, 3, and 4, respectively. Now turn Parent in Place ON. Unparent the nulls.

With Parent in Place still ON, reparent the nulls this way:

Mesh > Bone1 > Null1 > Bone2 > Null2 > Bone3 > Null3 > Bone4

What this does is place the nulls at the end of the previous bones and exactly where the bones they are about to control actually start.

*Important step: With Parent in Place ON, reparent all of the bones to the Mesh by themselves. It'll look something like:

Mesh
> Bone1 > Null1
> Bone2 > Null2
> Bone3 > Null3
> Bone4

First Follower.p will move the bone to the null at the end of its parent. ie. Bone2 follows Null1, Bone3 follows Null2, etc. Leave rotation and scale turned off. Turn off the "After IK" in each panel. You also need to have World Coords checked.

Second Follower.p in each bone's motion panel will rotate the bone to match the control null. Bone2 follows H,P,B of Control Null1,Bone3 follows H,P,B of Control Null2, etc.

This will give you precise control over each bone without changing the angle or alignment of child bones.

I've named this setup PickyPickyPicky.lws.

I guess you could turn the location nulls into the control nulls by redirecting things a bit. This way you'd only need to use Follower.p once. This one seems more problematic and prone to gimbal lock, though... Not sure. I haven't played around with it a lot, yet. I've named this setup PickyPickyPicky2.lws.

You can get the sample files here. (http://hammer.prohosting.com/~cfox3d/PickyPickyPicky.zip)

SplineGod
06-07-2003, 03:09 AM
Hey Werner,
Take a look at this file. I think its setup the way youre talking about:
http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/examples/phonecord.zip

Nemoid
06-07-2003, 04:12 PM
great :bounce:

i tried to redo this picky picky scene and worked properly ! i'm not so expert... can i utilize this method with a skelegon with
pre bended bones to set up a character? if i understood well its a sort of direct cinematic but with controls 4 rotation... can i apply ik to that, to switch direct/ik and utiliz the same controls?

webfox
06-07-2003, 08:00 PM
Yes.

The bones were originally horizontal in my scene. So, you see that they do work after repositioning.

Just remember to keep using the Parent in Place on and off as in the tutorial, or else you'll have problems.

Glad that I could help.




Karma save roll +5 (nerdy reference)

:)

Nemoid
06-08-2003, 01:57 PM
i tried just now the scene, doing it with pre bended bones, because in most cases u have to prebend skels in modeler to setup a human skeleton. so bones appear not straight but rotated.

i used the method to align the rotation of controls to that of prebended bons wich follows that control, before applying the 2nd folower.p for rotations.... it worked well! infact, now the bones are prebended in starting position, but rotate following controls!!!:bounce:

the only prob is that the contr and nulls appear rotated in the starting position, but no prob for rotating bones !:thumbsup:

hope its useful!!!:)

terryford
06-08-2003, 02:36 PM
Werner; do you mean you want to rotate a spine bone but have it's child maintain it's orentation?

<foolish suggestion deleted>

Disregard if I've missed the point :)


Regards,
Terry

webfox
06-08-2003, 07:50 PM
Terry,

You don't want to apply follower to the rotations of the bones or else you'll never be able to adjust them. Follower will take over and lock them into the reverse angle. You'd not be able to pose the child bones at all.

You really want them all reparented in place to the main mesh so that follower will keep them positioned at the nulls at the ends of their parents.

Nemoid,

After you get the skelgon's lolipop handles set at the top of the pitch rotation in Modeler, you need to go through all of your bones, once they're converted from skelegons in Layout, and turn them all off, rest them, and then go through all of them again and record each one's pivot rotation. This will change all of your rotation handles to be oriented the way you want them to be.

terryford
06-08-2003, 10:01 PM
Yeah, my suggestion was nonsense. :hmm:

I do like to use follower on spine bones for walk cycles and standing poses though; for auto counterbalancing COG/pelvis rotation. Not applicable for Werner's problem, sadly.


Regards,
Terry

Nemoid
06-09-2003, 10:09 AM
i'm sorry my rigging absolute inexpericence obliges me to ask some more:

1 lets say i made my char in modeler, then drew a skelegon, fully parented with my prebended bones in the right position, to avoid gimbal lock probs i think.

then :

1) in layout i cvt skel to bones
2) as i read about parenting i read that i have to change something of this in layout. for arms and legs??!!
3) then i have to make a rest position? with what commands exactly?
4) then if i understood well, i can use your process to setup the nulls and the controls, right?

thanx for your aid

webfox
06-09-2003, 11:01 AM
Well, what you're trying to do is create a character rig that doesn't break or move when you move another part of it. If you move the spine, you don't want the hands to go out of position, and if you move the feet, you don't want the hips to change angles... This can vary. Depending on your animation needs, you might want a rig that aligns the hips between the feet for you, but with every automated feature, you give up control to the computer a little more. You don't want too much automation as you will find yourself fighting the rig to control your character.

So, if your bones are parented to each other, each time you move a bone higher up in the parent/child relationship, you will then move all of the children.

If you reparent a bone to the mesh, itself, then you have no parent bone that will break your character's pose. If you reparent to just the root bone, then you only have to worry about one bone breaking your poses, and this may be acceptable, too.

There really is no right or wrong as far as rigging goes, there is only what will or what will not do as your scene requires.

So, in this case that we've been discussing in this thread, you have a spine that will pose any way you want it to be posed, and it won't rotate or readjust the chest, neck, or head after moving any part of it. The advantage is absolute control over poses, but the disadvantage is that you have to pose each bone each time, even if you want the children to follow the parents around, because they now have no parent bones.

Now, "rest position"... that's called up with cntrl-R. It's referred to as "bone activation on/off" if you pull up the keyboard shortcuts. It will reset the bone at the current frame. Be very careful with this feature and save each time before you use it. If your mesh has been moved and you deactivate/reactivate your bones, you will probably find that the mesh doesn't deform the way it used to because all of the influences are being calculated from the new position of the bone when you reactivate it.

Once, you have your bones rested and the rotations recorded and everything moves the way you expect it to, reset all the bone rotations (Do this by selecting all bones of the mesh - use the select function in the Scene Editor - , set your tool to "rotate" in Items, and press Reset) and start setting up your nulls and follower plugins.

I hope this makes sense and that it helps you in your rigging. :)

Nemoid
06-09-2003, 12:17 PM
Thanx for your help :beer:

What i'd like to do is a normal base rig, with controls at legs and arms for Ik, as well as with controls at joints to work in direct cinematic when i want to switch. is this possible?

is there a good tutorial in wich i can understand the whole process?

the fact i prebend bones in modeler, and parent them in hierarchy is because i read that this can help avoiding probs in bones rotation with Ik.and also mesh uncorrect deformations right?

then i cvt skelegons in bones, and?

for the iK i know that i have to fix the angle rotation limits (HPB) for joints, then add a null at the end of Ik to control the arm or leg.
so that i can make a position easily.
then, i'd like to add nulls and/or controls to joints to pick them and use them to adjust my position in some case, with direct ik

so, how i record bones rotations?
i have to hit contrl r and then reset all rotations?:rolleyes:

webfox
06-09-2003, 01:47 PM
Record Rotations is here:

Layout> Items> Pivot> Record Pivot Rotation

A very good source of character setup information is here:

Digiwonk.com (http://digiwonk.com/)

Nemoid
06-09-2003, 02:56 PM
Thanx so much Webfox!!!:thumbsup:

SplineGod
06-09-2003, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by webfox
Terry,

You don't want to apply follower to the rotations of the bones or else you'll never be able to adjust them. Follower will take over and lock them into the reverse angle. You'd not be able to pose the child bones at all.

You really want them all reparented in place to the main mesh so that follower will keep them positioned at the nulls at the ends of their parents.

Nemoid,

After you get the skelgon's lolipop handles set at the top of the pitch rotation in Modeler, you need to go through all of your bones, once they're converted from skelegons in Layout, and turn them all off, rest them, and then go through all of them again and record each one's pivot rotation. This will change all of your rotation handles to be oriented the way you want them to be.
One thing you have to watch out for is LWs record pivot rotation is a kludge. You need to make sure you turn on AutoKey or keyframe the change manually and do it only on frame 0 or your rig will explode. If you havent yet, I recommend downloading the Orthopedics demo from http://www.irrationalnumber.com. They have a whole bunch of excellent tools for manipulating bones directly in layout. They have their own version of RPR which works not only predictabley but allows you to easily set the pitch on any bones at weird angles.
I dont recommend using LWs RPR on every bone. Thats asking for trouble IMO especially if you ever have to go back and start tweaking things again.
You only need to worry about RPR on bones that are giving you gimbal lock that is actually preventing you from rotating a bone in a particular way. If the shin bone has gimbal lock but the pitch works fine, so what? If you are only going to be rotating that bone along the pitch then nothing else really matters.
A big help is to use 2D IK whenever possible. What this means is that rather then having IK in 2 rotational channels on a bone, break that bone up into 2 bones putting IK on a single channel of each bone. This is much more stable and little to no worries about gimbal lock anyways. This is why messiahs IK is so fast. Its only 2D.

webfox
06-09-2003, 07:54 PM
Thanks for pointing that out. Also, I apologize to everyone for not mentioning that the Record Pivot Point shouldn't be used on any frame other than zero. I hope no one's work got messed up because of that omission.

Werner
06-10-2003, 08:28 AM
I fixed my problem...Thanks for the feedback.

I used follower, and it works. For some reason, I had to create my bones on the z+ axis before it stopped messing everything up...strange.

I will post the file tomorrow. :thumbsup:

Nemoid
06-10-2003, 01:21 PM
Thx to all!!

this thread had been very interesting 4 me!! i'll test your indications in these days for completing my first rig test. i knew about the 0 key. infact i always pay attention to make things in this frame in layout and to set autokey on when possible.

for Splinegod : i installed yesterday the Ortho's demo and i have to say these tools are very good so i'll use them in my rig test.
they will have a full version for Lw[8] isn't it?
in my opinion such tools should be integrated in Layout from Newtek.

that's life!!!

Irrational number:thumbsup:

SplineGod
06-10-2003, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by Nemoid
Thx to all!!



for Splinegod : i installed yesterday the Ortho's demo and i have to say these tools are very good so i'll use them in my rig test.
they will have a full version for Lw[8] isn't it?
in my opinion such tools should be integrated in Layout from Newtek.

Irrational number:thumbsup:
I dont think anyone would disagree with that.
The tools are excellent and people are finding them very useful for removing LWs Record Pivot Rotation which seems to screw up Motion Builder. Ortho fixes a lot of issues. Whether or not it will be in LW 8...who knows? Even if they were to be included its going to be a few months before youll see them and the way I see it, for $65 bucks I can use them now. :)

Nemoid
06-11-2003, 01:06 PM
My english was bad.
the main question was if the final version will work in
Lw[8]
if Nt doesn't implement such tools no matter. i'll buy them separately!!!:thumbsup:

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