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ThePixelDoc
08-25-2008, 07:53 AM
... so it seems.

Background: I've been posting over the last few weeks over at the PainterFactory.com forum under the "Painter suggestions thread", with the thought that MAYBE that would be the best place rather than here. If the thread is alive still... you can see that I, as well as a few others, have done their best to "call out" the Dev-Team.... and specifically Rob MacDonald the Painter Program Manager, and to try and get some info/answers as to what's up with a new version and/or bug fix patch(s).

I decided to do a quick Google research, and the following is what I came up with, my comments included in (). This was originally posted in their forum. This is just a copy in case it's too "hard-core" for them to take or allow there.

***** COPY From PainterFactory.com>Painter Suggestions thread*****

Ive deleted this part... it was old news as pointed out to me. My apologies!

Current Job Opportunities at Corel

>>>ALSO Removed by me, the author.

Commentary most welcome!

PS: I've edited this post to take out old news. HOWEVER, I still would like to hear what others think about an upgrade, bugfix, whatever, to Painter. Many people have contributed here, and at the PainterFactory.com Forum, with no "real" answers or input from Corel. So are we all gonna stick with the bugs, or old versions... or move everything over to PS-CS3 or CS4?

(I'm getting too old for this S***!)

joeparis
08-25-2008, 09:22 AM
I don't get it. Apart from job vacancies/compensation packages, that seems to be eight year old "news".

ThePixelDoc
08-25-2008, 09:51 AM
I don't get it. Apart from job vacancies/compensation packages, that seems to be eight year old "news".

You know what... I think I may have had a brain drain here! Seriously, I could have sworn it said June 2008! I"m losiing it here, mainly due to my total frustration with getting anything out of Corel over the last few weeks! Nada! My apologies.... although really, Is wear I saw 2008! Too much eye-strainn lately I guess!

workbench
08-25-2008, 03:01 PM
I don't think they are bankrupt, they're just plain bad devs.


Corel buys software from small devs like Metacreations and Jasc who created very fast and functional software who Corel then turns these programs into buggy bloatware, I've seen the pattern way too many times, just look at PaintShop and Painter, look at how the old versions by the original creators were light, loaded fast and were very practical now compare them to the Corel versions, the worse part is that Corel adds very little to no inovation, they have practically been releasing the same version of Painter over the years.

joeparis
08-25-2008, 03:23 PM
Seriously, I could have sworn it said June 2008! No problem, easy mistake to make. What I want to know now is why/how you have two different votes in the poll? ;)

Miguimau
08-25-2008, 03:42 PM
I don't think they are bankrupt, they're just plain bad devs.


Corel buys software from small devs like Metacreations and Jasc who created very fast and functional software who Corel then turns these programs into buggy bloatware, I've seen the pattern way too many times, just look at PaintShop and Painter, look at how the old versions by the original creators were light, loaded fast and were very practical now compare them to the Corel versions, the worse part is that Corel adds very little to no inovation, they have practically been releasing the same version of Painter over the years.
IMHO they did a great job with Painter 7 but I in general terms agree regarding to the rest of versions.
But I just would like them to keep Painter alive. I would not ask for much more. :(

Per-Anders
08-25-2008, 04:08 PM
Uh, Painter gets updated about every year or so, I wouldn't want to have to pay for more updates than that personally, but I would like more in the updates with regards interface improvements and better tools, better layering, a fix for the opacity of strokes etc. Advertising for more developers and marketeers doesn't indicate anything other than they want to hire a developer and some marketeers, it doesn't say they don't have developers or a marketing department, that same sort of logic says that a company is in trouble if they have to advertise to sell their product, therefore companies with lots of adverts are in real trouble, it just doesn't make any real sense, now if they were looking for a complete dev team, then it would be time to speculate (maybe even a new product on the way). Don't forget that Corel do have a number of other products out there.

workbench
08-25-2008, 04:12 PM
IMHO they did a great job with Painter 7 but I in general terms agree regarding to the rest of versions.
But I just would like them to keep Painter alive. I would not ask for much more. :(

Painter 7 was still using the old interface layout, it was like a mix of the old with new features hence why so many people like it, too bad they thought that by copying Photoshop interface they would also get more Photoshop users to switch to Painter.

Adobe at least made an effort with PS CS3, what has Corel been doing all these years? Do they even have a fulltime team working on Painter? I find it hard to believe considering the little work they do with the program.

ThePixelDoc
08-25-2008, 04:36 PM
I just wanted to state again here that I was wrong in how I went about this post, as well as the original post at PainterFactory.com. Talk about sticking both feet up your own A**!!!

I received a very human reply from one of the development team, which I seriously didn't deserve, when a good smack down would have probably been in order! I promptly apologized, and prefer not to go into detail.


Regardless, the way I went about my criticism was definately uncalled for.

Also, Rob MacDonald has replied in thePanterFactory forum, and I guess I (we?) are just gonna have to live with his answer. I'll apologize there later re: my "calling out".


The original post HERE has been edited by me. However... the vote I would like to leave up here. The results should still be interesting, and above else... the only thing of somewhat redeaming value to the original post.

workbench
08-25-2008, 05:57 PM
I just wanted to state again here that I was wrong in how I went about this post, as well as the original post at PainterFactory.com. Talk about sticking both feet up your own A**!!!

I received a very human reply from one of the development team, which I seriously didn't deserve, when a good smack down would have probably been in order! I promptly apologized, and prefer not to go into detail.


Regardless, the way I went about my criticism was definately uncalled for.

Also, Rob MacDonald has replied in thePanterFactory forum, and I guess I (we?) are just gonna have to live with his answer. I'll apologize there later re: my "calling out".


The original post HERE has been edited by me. However... the vote I would like to leave up here. The results should still be interesting, and above else... the only thing of somewhat redeaming value to the original post.


What exactly was the answer that changed your mind? I don't have the site bookmarked plus last time I checked it didn't work very well with my browser, the only way Corel is going to redeem themselve is by releasing a fully functional, non buggy, with a good interface and with inovative features in the next version of Painter (11), until then to me they're just a bunch of imcopetent developers, I mean they added enhanced brush ghost, a cool feature I supposed if only it didn't made Painter incredibly slow and unusable, so you have to disable it if you wish to use Painter X, how is this logical? Do they even try the software? I won't change my mind that easily.

Miguimau
08-26-2008, 12:12 AM
Painter 7 was still using the old interface layout, it was like a mix of the old with new features hence why so many people like it, too bad they thought that by copying Photoshop interface they would also get more Photoshop users to switch to Painter.

Adobe at least made an effort with PS CS3, what has Corel been doing all these years? Do they even have a fulltime team working on Painter? I find it hard to believe considering the little work they do with the program.
Iīm a Painter user (and sort of zealot) since Painter 5 came out, so I know the whole story. Iīm 100 % with you about how copying PS was horrible. And I am not versed in programation but I suppose that, aside the interface, a lot of code was messed in Painter 8 , because itīs not definitively the same feel and touch .


But , Marco. Be realistic: You cannot compare Photoshop with Painter. Photoshop is the jewel of the crowd for Adobe. Corel has a bunch of graphic apps, and I still wonder how they keep Painter alive because it is not definitively their favorite.
Look at Microsoft: they bought Creature House Expression (remember, that vectorial brother to Painter) and just killed it. They have built a new thing over its code but definitively itīs not that promising application.
Corel even has released new versions. Oh, well. I cannot less that agree to your criticism but like or not, Painter doesnīt play the same league than Photoshop anymore.

I would like to see an innovative , brilliant, bugless release of Painter but , jeez deep in my heart just hope Corel wonīt kill this app. Itīs sad but itīs true for me.
In other sort of things, I have bought Painter 6, 7, 8, IX and just acquired X cause Painter IX was not universal binary and didnīt run well in my Intel Mac . I will not buy an upcoming upgrade if they lunch just another Photoshop ersatz with a couple of new brushes and a useless feature.


Uh, Painter gets updated about every year or so, I wouldn't want to have to pay for more updates than that personally, but I would like more in the updates with regards interface improvements and better tools, better layering, a fix for the opacity of strokes etc.

word!


My heart is divided, as you can see. Corel is not doing what Painter deserves but we STILL have Painter. Doh! :(

Jinbrown
08-26-2008, 01:50 AM
In the interest of both information and accuracy:

Though the job titles sound similar, the responsibilities are quite different. Rob MacDonald is the Corel Painter Product Manager (not Program Manager).

The thread at The PainterFactory mentioned in previous posts is in the Suggestion Box forum.

The thread name is Painter Wish List.

Click the link below to read the whole thread. Read posts by DocPixel (known here as ThePixelDoc) beginning on page 5 of the thread. Read posts by Rob MacDonald beginning on page 7 of the thread.

Painter Wish List (http://painterfactory.com/forums/t/259.aspx?PageIndex=1)


#

dbisme
08-26-2008, 02:39 AM
Doc Pixel and his various aliases seem to have serious negative obsessions regarding Painter. Obviously Painter is not perfect. But just as obviously, no software is perfect and never will be. Software is made by humans and humans make mistakes.

Many,many other Painter users spend their time using Painter because of what it can do.

If the user known as Doc Pixel hates Painter so much, why not use another software program instead. He seems determined to work himself up into a perfect fit of rage. Not at all healthy.

Perhaps he has a not so hidden agenda to try and show Painter in a totally negative light.

Whatever the reason, I suggest he get help soon.

ThePixelDoc
08-26-2008, 06:40 AM
What exactly was the answer that changed your mind? I don't have the site bookmarked plus last time I checked it didn't work very well with my browser, the only way Corel is going to redeem themselve is by releasing a fully functional, non buggy, with a good interface and with inovative features in the next version of Painter (11), until then to me they're just a bunch of imcopetent developers, I mean they added enhanced brush ghost, a cool feature I supposed if only it didn't made Painter incredibly slow and unusable, so you have to disable it if you wish to use Painter X, how is this logical? Do they even try the software? I won't change my mind that easily.

The answer was directly from Rob MacDonald (Quote from Painterfactory.com), "...we are working on stability issues and items that dont work the way people expect them to. For now thats all I can say." Like the brush-ghosting issue you mentioned I hope.

I've posted there, that IMHO, they absolutely have to look into the way they are implementing screen-redraw, and hooking into the GPU. Kinda like the OpenGL improvements that Adobe is implementing in PS. It has always been CP-X's weakest link, and is the source of many user problems and issues (zooming creates half screens or lines, etc. just for 1 ex.)

Yes... the site is a pain to use and very slow, but it's what's there and closer to the source of the problems... and hopefully solutions and answers. It's why I started posting there.

Miguimau
08-26-2008, 08:46 AM
I've posted there, that IMHO, they absolutely have to look into the way they are implementing screen-redraw, and hooking into the GPU. Kinda like the OpenGL improvements that Adobe is implementing in PS. It has always been CP-X's weakest link, and is the source of many user problems and issues (zooming creates half screens or lines, etc. just for 1 ex.)

Yes... the site is a pain to use and very slow, but it's what's there and closer to the source of the problems... and hopefully solutions and answers. It's why I started posting there.
Hooking in the gpu (come one, will we find that a 128 MB of RAM card is below specs?) is not a must IMNO.
but I would like more in the updates with regards interface improvements and better tools, better layering, a fix for the opacity of strokes etc.
word!
"...we are working on stability issues and items that dont work the way people expect them to. For now thats all I can say."

Hopefully , Corel Painter dev team will make more than that. Because that is not much :)

I think I will have a look at the thread.

workbench
08-26-2008, 08:02 PM
I don't think anyone here hates Painter, I for one wished it was better, should I mention a little cool gfx application called Paint Tool SAI who is designed and programmed by a single person? He added tons of inovations that no other program has them and it's only in it's first version, granted it's also missing tons of features that Painter and Photoshop has but at least it's doing it's own thing like Painter was doing before Painter 8 was released, I think that's what most people critizing Corel want.

Anyway thanks for the quote PixelDoc, I hope they actually do something with Painter 11, adding multiple core support would be a start and a new interface already.
(http://forums.cgsociety.org/member.php?u=267143)

PainterPM
08-29-2008, 06:58 PM
We have some cool stuff planned for the next version. Speed, performance, fixing "stuff", and some cool new tools. I appreciate you all taking the time to post. I hand out here reading your posts, and I do bring this stuff back for plans for future dev.

Keep it coming.

Rob

Joker II
08-30-2008, 04:20 PM
At the moment I'm still using 9.1 for the sole reason that 9.5 isn't working with Vista, I found a solution to get 9.5 installed but keep getting an error when trying to use it.

Do hope you guys not only improve future versions, but, patch existing ones aswell !

For me, that is when you see a company doesn't solely think about the cash flow, but about the customer aswell !!!

Laurindo
08-30-2008, 06:30 PM
Hi PainterPM

Itīs good to see someone here from Corel, as many have already told before. I want now again to remind you of the couple of bugs we have with Intel Mac:

1) annoying freezing of brushes every now and then.

2) inability to use distort, scale and rotate by using cursor.

The fixing of these things is very important for us who are using painter for a heavy daily work, doing cartoons and illustrations etc.

But, after all, I love Painter and hope it will continue getting better and better (and in near future to be able to use more cores and RAM...)

Lauri

Laurindo
08-30-2008, 06:31 PM
Hi PainterPM

Itīs good to see someone here from Corel, as many have already told before. I want now again to remind you of the couple of bugs we have with Intel Mac:

1) annoying freezing of brushes every now and then.

2) inability to use distort, scale and rotate by using cursor.

The fixing of these things is very important for us who are using painter for a heavy daily work, doing cartoons and illustrations etc.

But, after all, I love Painter and hope it will continue getting better and better (and in near future to be able to use more cores and RAM...)

Lauri

Miguimau
08-30-2008, 07:17 PM
Hi PainterPM

Itīs good to see someone here from Corel, as many have already told before. I want now again to remind you of the couple of bugs we have with Intel Mac:

1) annoying freezing of brushes every now and then.

2) inability to use distort, scale and rotate by using cursor.

The fixing of these things is very important for us who are using painter for a heavy daily work, doing cartoons and illustrations etc.

But, after all, I love Painter and hope it will continue getting better and better (and in near future to be able to use more cores and RAM...)

Lauri

Iīm am on a Macbook Pro (Tiger) and donīt experiment these bugs.
No brushes freezing at all.
I can rotateg, scale and transform by using cursor for sure.
Do not wait for a new version: you ought to reinstall it now, thatīs weird.

Laurindo
08-30-2008, 08:09 PM
Thanx Miguimau,

I have been lucky enough to not had to do any reinstalling in past six years.. I got a the recent 8-core mac pro and Leopard in it and I had fresh install of Painter X.

Now I must try reinstalling, sure.

Lauri

Miguimau
08-30-2008, 09:37 PM
An eight core Mac Pro! Itīs a sin if you are not able to properly run Painter. :(
Multi core support, that is one of the main fixes Corel ought to consider.

Mmm, you could install Tiger (if you can) in an external drive, just to discard a Leopard bug. Sounds crazy but who knows... Thatīs why I havenīt upgraded to Leopard, no surprises.

Good luck (and congrats on that awesome machine)

I must confess that my favourite version EVER is Painter 7 running on a Powerbook G4 12" @1.5gh I still use Painter 7 much , maybe the 70% of my Painter work. Even under Rosseta is pretty fast.

PainterPM
08-31-2008, 02:48 AM
Hi PainterPM

Itīs good to see someone here from Corel, as many have already told before. I want now again to remind you of the couple of bugs we have with Intel Mac:

1) annoying freezing of brushes every now and then.

2) inability to use distort, scale and rotate by using cursor.

The fixing of these things is very important for us who are using painter for a heavy daily work, doing cartoons and illustrations etc.

But, after all, I love Painter and hope it will continue getting better and better (and in near future to be able to use more cores and RAM...)

Lauri

The freezing and the inabilities are weird.... as mentioned above by Miguimau you shouldn't be experiencing this?? Do you have anymore details you can share?
I agree on the multi core and ram. It's really too bad the software doesn't leverage these technologies. This is an area we are heavily investigating for the next version.

Rob

PainterPM
08-31-2008, 02:54 AM
At the moment I'm still using 9.1 for the sole reason that 9.5 isn't working with Vista, I found a solution to get 9.5 installed but keep getting an error when trying to use it.

Do hope you guys not only improve future versions, but, patch existing ones aswell !

For me, that is when you see a company doesn't solely think about the cash flow, but about the customer aswell !!!

Hi Joker II,

As a rule software companies never do a previous version patch if there is a new one available as the case with Painter X. Now I am not saying that this is a good or smart rule but you will find these cases all over the place.
We will not be making 9.5 Vista compliant. It's not that we are thinking about the money but it is sometimes impossible to go back on code to bring it up to run on new OS'. Not that this eases your pain right now but I hope it helps??

Rob

Joker II
08-31-2008, 08:08 AM
Well, fair enough PainterPM, I'll probably won't be upgrading to X, but, you can be sure that I'll keep my eyes open to see what XI will bring and if it's interesting (multiple core support, etc... ) I'll certainly will upgrade to that one.


Actually, I just was able to upgrade to IX.5, think that I actually didn't upgrade to IX.1 previously, Jinny Brown at the Painter forum was so kind to help me out.


One thing that I really like seeing is you guys communicating with the user base, it's something not manny developers do and something that should be done, even if it's just to say that something isn't possible. Better then to be left in the dark !

Edit:
@ThePixelDoc,
How is it possible that you voted twice on this poll ? Isn't really fair now is it ?

ThePixelDoc
09-01-2008, 06:37 AM
Edit:
@ThePixelDoc,
How is it possible that you voted twice on this poll ? Isn't really fair now is it ?

To answer that Q quickly: because I was the one that set it up to allow multiple voting, and wanted to see if it worked. Just testing :)

I also want to say to Rob: thanks for staying involved here and at the PainterFactory Forum. It really is a great thing to have you and others actually "at" Corel replying to the forums, since as you see... more people go ahead and get involved in the discusssion themselves if they think someone of importance is listening.

The freezing and the inabilities are weird.... as mentioned above by Miguimau you shouldn't be experiencing this?? Do you have anymore details you can share?
I agree on the multi core and ram. It's really too bad the software doesn't leverage these technologies. This is an area we are heavily investigating for the next version.

Uhm... a little critique on that reply Rob: Even you have stated that Painter is at the moment rather unstable, so "wierd freezing" and crashing, happens to be the result of that. Also, it's not the leveraging of ram or multi-core technologies at the center of the problem, it's the programming behind the screen-drawing/video driver routines. Most freezing/crashing problems within any graphics related program is due to bad or inefficient GPU hooks and programming.

Also in reply to the person who posted, stating that we do not need OpenGL or better GPU integration because he (or we) wouldn't be able to use on-board memory or 128mb chips, etc. ... GPU and specifically OpenGL usage is, at the program level, only used if there are sufficient resources available while working (i.e. your chip or card has enough unused memory available). It's not a "requirement", but is a definite speed bump for "some" tasks, and "some" people, that have pro workstation set ups. Other set-ups may be slower, but that has always been the case with any and all programs, and lack of high-end video cards, sufficient ram, and adequate free-space and a fast hard drive. Vista's biggest problems to date revolve around just these areas. An all-round higher-end system is required.

Re: Ram
Not entirely Corel's problem. WinXP users will always be held to under 4gigs available to the entire system. Vista also has some internal issues using ram, caching, and program memory allocation under 32bit. I've "heard & read" that Vista 64bit is the best future-proof system regarding the aforementioned tech for Windows users(?)

Mac OSX is at the moment the most stable when using multi-gigs of ram, and I personally use 5 gigs out of a total of 10 gigs when working with Painter and have no probs bumping it up if I need to (or down for that matter).

Re: Multi-Core and Multi-threading
An actual programmer should verify my next statement(!) As I understand it, Painter... just as with PhotoShop, will only see major speed gains when using filters. Multi-core is great for the system, because you can be working on Painter or PS (or both), editing/compressing a video, doing a system-wide search, etc. all at the same time. The program (Painter) itself would only gain if you had 2 or more pictures open, one is being ran through a multi-stepped filter script... and while it's doing it's job in the background, you're painting a new masterpiece in the foreground. However, this is generally NOT how we use Painter... so I do not see any major gain by designing Painter for it. If it's a biproduct of updating the code however... please... by all means! :)

To sum it up, it's the GPU routines that need optimizing in Painter, and which will bring the most benefit in the future, as well as overall stabilty.

To experience this in a graphics app right now, and OpenGL integration in action, you should check out PhotoShop CS4 (beta), and that thread here on this forum. Pretty amazing and FAST stuff!

Joker II
09-01-2008, 08:34 AM
To answer that Q quickly: because I was the one that set it up to allow multiple voting, and wanted to see if it worked. Just testing :)

If that's the case, don't you think it would have been better to divide those two votes (negative/possitive), I mean, the way you voted, it really gives the impression that all you wanted to do is bring Painter down !

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