Combining morphing, deformations & bones?

[ediris]

Hi Jim,
In pag 661 from the Animator PDF it comes the specific for appraoching the type of animation that you want to do , here is the thing. You just have the same number of polys and vertex in order to work.

And on page 402 also from Animator PDF there is your Cycling option wich i will say is your best option here. You just have to bring in all your models in a sequential way. I donot know how to use these tool but i guess it sounds like your choice depending how smooth you want the transition to be.

But that should get you started. Good luck.

Edgard

[jimjam]

Thank you Edgard.

I'm familiar with morphing, but had totally forgotten about cycling.
It may be too tedious for everything I want to do, but could come in handy for certain parts.
I appreciate your help!

JimMulcahy

[monday1313]

if you're having appendages coming out of the lump, the mesh has to be really dense there, but be very careful of overlapping polys/verts, it makes the morphing option really touchy to use... i did something similar with zbrush and eias and the morph targets didn't really work, probably because i had such a dense model...the verts have to be in the same order in the model file on each morph target, and the models have to all have the same amount of polys...

[DickM]

Yes, you can animate bone scale. I hand animated bone scales for squash n stretch effects that weren't automated. :banghead:

[jimjam]

Thanks Monday,

I plan to make the models as simple (low poly) as possible, but I'll keep the overlapping polys/verts in mind as nothing ever works quite the way I expect it to. Thanks for the warning. It may save me lots of headaches.

As long as I always start from a sphere in Silo with the same number of polygons, the vertices should be in the same order, right?

Lots of nice work at your site!

JimMulcahy

[jimjam]

Thanks Richard,

That's a relief to hear I can animate bone scale. If it worked in your squash and stretch animation, it should work for what I have in mind.

I wanted to hear from people's experience and not just from the user manuals.
It sounds like there's nothing stopping me but myself now. So time for experimentation.

Any experience with combining deformations with bones or morphs?

Thanks.

JimMulcahy

[monday1313]

As long as I always start from a sphere in Silo with the same number of polygons, the vertices should be in the same order, right?

JimMulcahy


that's what i thought, it didn't always work out that way. i have a feeling that somewhere in the translation from Zbrush to OBJ2Fact to EIAS, i had a setting that somehow changed the order(hindsight being 20/20 it was probably switching the z axis in OBJ2fact but i don't know for sure...) i didn't have time to troubleshoot though, there was a deadline that was pretty severe on that project, so i just brute forced it with iterations of the model and used child cycling...very labor intensive, but it got the job done without further complications...


...and thanks for the compliment!

[Vizfizz]

How much definition do these limbs require? Are they just tentacles or do they need to be very refined like actual human arms?

I'm just thinking about various potential solutions. Maybe extra resolution with Encage could help? Work in a lower rez mesh and then subdivide it up. What about Blobmaker? Could metaballs be a solution or is that too unpredictable?

[jimjam]

Thanks Monday,

I'll play around some more and see if the vertex order changes or not when working from spheres with the same number of polygons in Silo. So far it has worked out OK with three models. I can export the models from Silo as FACTs and directly import them without using OBJ2Fact. This may help me avoid the problems you had. I'm at work now and busy with some other things for the next few days, but hope to work some of these details out soon.

I can imagine how intensive cycling must have been. I have no deadline and plan to take my time, avoiding brute force solutions as much as possible.

JimMulcahy

[ediris]

No brut force is always good to hear these. I am not a maual guy but sometimes you have to know the specifics on a subject so i point out some of the pages so you go staright at it, is not longer than two pages . Very esay reading.

Good luck
Edgard


PS:I know i never done it with group cycling but is there if you need it.

[jimjam]

Thanks Brian,

I don't think the arms will need much definition. I plan on three or four joint-free stub-like fingers on a squarish hand with a tapered arm and the simplest wrist and elbow I can get away with. It just has to be recognizable as an arm, and has to be movable in an arm-like fashion.

The Encage solution is a good one I hadn't considered. It may be that even my supposedly "simple" vision will become too complex and Encage will be my savior. Thanks for that!

I was considering metaballs for certain parts, but will have to see how the project develops. I haven't played with them enough to know if they will help. But I will keep them in mind.

Thanks for the assistance!

JimMulcahy

JimMulcahy

[monday1313]

yeah, i had to go brute force because there wasn't time to get lost in never ending trouble shooting. this was after reading the necessary parts of the manual numerous times...

I needed a dependable path to results that i could execute immediately...

[jimjam]

Ediris,

I appreciated your pointing me to the right pages. I read through those pages and other parts of the manual, read through some old tutorials, and now have a much better idea of how to proceed. Thank you.

JimM

[jimjam]

Monday,

I've also resorted to brute force for many projects -- even personal projects with no deadline. What I especially dislike is when I can't get something right and have to resort to major Photoshop/AE touchup. Hopefully, I'll plan well enough and the tools will work as advertised so I can skip the usual hair-pulling.

JimM

[AVTPro]

Can I handle this in EI without pulling my remaining hair out?


Exactly how much hair are we talking about here?

Bald in the back my be a fair trade for a good morph squence.

What about sideburns? You really don't need those, and they do grow back.

You have to look at the problem from all angles. Is early greying an option?

Do you use Zbrush? That will save you a few locks.

I would reverse engineer it. Build the character from a sphere maybe.

[Seabear]

For many years i have tried to find or develop the tools for animated sculpture, you are the first I have encountered to show such an interest and raise the issue in an EI forum!
I have tried it using EIAS morph editor (some years ago), but I decided that tho doable, it is a very convoluted and uncertain way to achieve meaningful results.
It requires topology structure built into the model to accomodate the various deformations, this can be done up to a point in Silo, but a lot of sds modeling knowhow is needed for such an ambitios 'dynamic' model.
Hash AM smartskin will allow you to achieve more, more easily I think. But spline modeling is not very precise and the limited topology options are restrictive.
I came to the conclusion that it would be far better to build modeling tools based on an entirely different topological foundation to facilitate such a sculptural intention.

[jimjam]

Alonzo,

I have enough left to bargain with the gods.
They've already taken my hair color, but I may find a taker for my sideburns.
Hmmm. Is a soul necessary?

As you say, alternative solutions may be in order.
But for now, I'll give EI and silo a try.
Building the character(s) from a sphere(s) is exactly what I have in mind.
I'll be experimenting some more in the next few hours...

Thanks.

JimM

[jimjam]

Thanks Malcolm,

I'm surprised if I'm the first to show interest in this issue. I've been wanting to do this project for at least six years and it seems like such a natural thing to do in 3D. Of course, I almost always run into frustrating roadblocks when I try to realize my vision in 3D.

I remember well your superb modeling with Modeler, and your various frustrations that peaked with Modeler's demise. When you (or AVT) speak, I listen.

It appears that, as usual, I'm being overly ambitious with my plans. That's good to know from the start. I will experiment for awhile and find some solutions before really diving in.

I haven't played with Hash AM, which I avoided due to poor rendering and rumors about instability. But I'll give it another peek out of curiosity.

If not SDS, what topological foundation are you referring to?

Thanks.

JimM

[ediris]

Hi Jimjam,
Does it has to be 3D i mean it will be much easier to do it in clay(stop motion),it will be more fun too.:)
Just a thought.
Edgard

[jimjam]

Funny you should say that, Edgard. The same thought occurred to me this evening when watching a stop-motion clay animation (Pingu) with my youngest kid. I spent a couple of hours with EI and Silo afterwards and am starting to realize how difficult my intended project could become. I may give the clay some more thought.

JimM

[ediris]

Yes that happeneds we alway forget about the basics. Me too i am so much into 3D and i forget the unlimitted tools we have now. For example i was using these scene with C4D and than it turns out i could do the same thing with just simples pics of real grass layered in AE and voila there i hae it.

We have done some stop motion animations i give you the link is about half way an orange is animated very cool. Well i like it , i have work with her for the last few months, there are some of my stuff there.

Edgard

http://www.lafabricanaranja.es/SHOWREEL.html

[monday1313]

yep, always easier to do it in camera...


nice work edgard...some really cool stuff in your reel!

[ediris]

Eww , i dont like that rell too much :) i did some work for her but must of the things are too bright and colorful. ;) I did must of the 3d stuff very few things in her rell and some of the disco visuals, igot my reel here but is not updated.

http://www.vimeo.com/1133851 (http://www.vimeo.com/1133851/l:transcoded_email)

[jimjam]

Edgard,

I like both your reels a lot! And the animated orange, as you say, is very cool.
You've done an awful lot of good work and I hope some of this is up at the EI gallery.

JimM

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