New animation layers and FBX character animation

[gonzo-3D]

Hi,

from what I've seen so far from the R11 demo, the NLA gap has been closed now. So now it seems that you can mix your motion clips directly in R11. However I would say that this enhancement doesn't replace MB:

The viewport speed in MB is unbeatable fast, so it's a big advantage for timing and estimating your animations seeing even several highpoly characters moving in realtime in your scene. R11 can't compete with this.
It seems also that it's still not easily possible to retarget motion from a skeleton that has a different bone structure and bone length to a c4d char. So using any mocap and modifying or merging it with the new NLA is probably still very tedious or at least not a walk in the park like in MB. Maybe I have missed something and the retarget workflow has been improved - but if not, then the new R11 NLA is only useful for those who like to mix motionclips that have been created completely in C4D by keyframing and that's not what you are looking for - as far as I've understood your question.

By the way - the new features of Motionbuilder 2009 sound very interesting, especially the new rag doll solver - maybe a little step towards tools like Endorphin. So maybe instead of thinking about replacing MB you should rather upgrade MB ;-)

Don't get me wrong: I'm still a big fan of C4D and I surely will upgrade to R11 - but after having worked with MB for quite some time I don't want to strip down the animation workflow only to have the advantage to stay in one tool.

regards,
Gonzo

[velarde]

Thanks for the detailed asnwer Gonzo.

I'll guess I'll do some tests when I get my copy of Cinema 11.
And have time.... :)

About MotionBuilder... I do use it very seldom so the cost of upgrding my old Standard license to a Professional 2009 license... would be much more than I'm wiling to spend...

And I think they killed the Mac version now... ( or at least no comments about it on their product page)

fjv

[C.Smith]

unless I'm missing something, the last gap is retargeting. I have minimal luck retargeting FBX files to characters I have. Maybe I'm alone, but it seems that the current retarget options are slim.

[Sammer]

If you have both C4d and MB the main problem for many has been the split bone hierarchy you get when re-importing to C4D. This is easily overcome if you simply retarget from the Skeleton null hierarchy that comes back into cinema after plotting and exporting from MB (make sure you have 'Remove dummy skeleton nulls' unchecked in cinemas' prefs) and target it to your original joint rig (some still use bones).

You can open and use .fbx, .bvh and .c3d or other optical data directly in cinema and use it but you have to make sure you set it up right or your model will wad up in nothing flat.

While i've only played with motion/clips in the R11 demo a little and watched the nla vids, what I've seen so far is super slick.

I don't know what it would take for there to be an option with the retarget tag to use position or rotation or both instead of having to use both attributes but I know many have driven themselves crazy with it.

[RandyLeeBlain]

If you have both C4d and MB the main problem for many has been the split bone hierarchy you get when re-importing to C4D. This is easily overcome if you simply retarget from the Skeleton null hierarchy that comes back into cinema after plotting and exporting from MB (make sure you have 'Remove dummy skeleton nulls' unchecked in cinemas' prefs) and target it to your original joint rig (some still use bones).

You can open and use .fbx, .bvh and .c3d or other optical data directly in cinema and use it but you have to make sure you set it up right or your model will wad up in nothing flat.

While i've only played with motion/clips in the R11 demo a little and watched the nla vids, what I've seen so far is super slick.

I don't know what it would take for there to be an option with the retarget tag to use position or rotation or both instead of having to use both attributes but I know many have driven themselves crazy with it.

We are purchasing a PhaseSpace Mocap system. It spits out .c3d files. What is the process for getting these into C4D? Just open it?

Not knowing if you are familiar with the pipeline but I am capturing at 480FPS at 30Kx30K 16 bit grayscale. This means alot of data gets interpolated to a medium. If I would prefer to obtain the more exaggerated of the movements or tend them towards that instead of using a medium interpolation. Is there anyway to set that up or will a plugin have to be devised. It would be awesome to set up a rig, get the mocap data and drop it on the rig, pull a slider for interpolation and its ready to go.

On NLA layering.. Is there issues with multiple layers causing crossing of limbs, jerking or vibrating of the rig, dampening of previous layers animation or exaggeration of same?

Thanks
Randy

[gonzo-3D]

You can open and use .fbx, .bvh and .c3d or other optical data directly in cinema and use it ...

Hi Sammer,

OK, FBX and BVH can be read by C4D ... but C3D or other optical data ?? Are you sure about that ?

cheers,
Gonzo

[-mindcache-]

I don't think C3D is supported. It would have to be converted to another format first one way if you have MB is to re-target it then export it as fbx. I vaguely remember there being a MoCap Conversion module available for Deep Exploration might want to google that.

[Per-Anders]

On NLA layering.. Is there issues with multiple layers causing crossing of limbs, jerking or vibrating of the rig, dampening of previous layers animation or exaggeration of same?

NLA in C4D uses a robust ad predictable algorithm, you should not get such effects unless either (a) your own data contains such effects/massive transitions, or you use absolute overlaying modes that will completely replace underlying motion or (b) There is a bug, which should then be reported to Maxon.

You can try for yourself using the R11 demo and see what results you get. No-one will be able to tell you how your own scenes that you set up with your own data will respond as everyone works differently and uses differing levels of complexity in their own scenes that may or may not be indicative of the sorts of things you're doing.

[Sammer]

Whoops, sorry... yeah, .c3d came into Cinema as .fbx via MB. It's been a while since I set it up and had forgotten I converted it first.

Randy - I haven't run a Mocap session itself only worked with data but from what I know you might seriously consider MB. The info PhaseSpace had listed under the software section should give you a good idea of the general steps involved. Although, like all the manufactures, their info may not fully convey to the uninitiated the amount of work involved.

Also depending on your needs I've just seen an interesting demo from siggraph of Organic Motions markerless system but again I haven't used it.

As Per-Anders has said you shouldn't have any problem with the nla side. I wonder if perhaps your referring to the amount of clean up that is often required on raw capture data or maybe retargeting across rigs.

Have fun.

Sam

[indeep]

Question:
In R11 Can we use the mocca3 joints and skin to export to MB ? or we still need to use bone-claude bonet to avoid the problems when importing in MB?

[gonzo-3D]

Question:
In R11 Can we use the mocca3 joints and skin to export to MB ? or we still need to use bone-claude bonet to avoid the problems when importing in MB?

Hi,

like Sammer wrote in one of his previous postings you can use the mocca3 joints and skinning for retargeting any MB motion to it. You only have to take care that you use the skeleton null hierarchy for retargeting - instead of the split bone hierarchy.


If you have both C4d and MB the main problem for many has been the split bone hierarchy you get when re-importing to C4D. This is easily overcome if you simply retarget from the Skeleton null hierarchy that comes back into cinema after plotting and exporting from MB (make sure you have 'Remove dummy skeleton nulls' unchecked in cinemas' prefs) and target it to your original joint rig (some still use bones).

cheers,
Gonzo

[indeep]

But, when I used mocca3 skining, then in MB it always the mesh is "corrupted" because of the skin...

And then about "regarting",, is that really needed? I remember I used the "smartmerge" option and it worked just fine. (for bones at least)

[gonzo-3D]

But, when I used mocca3 skining, then in MB it always the mesh is "corrupted" because of the skin...

Hmm, what MB version are you using ? In case of an older MB version: maybe it helps if you export the old FBX 5 format (check the FBX export options in C4D). Can you import the exported FBX file into C4D and is the weighting still working after the reimport ? The mocca3 weighting should be converted into vertex maps or claude bonet - depending on your FBX import options.

And then about "regarting",, is that really needed? I remember I used the "smartmerge" option and it worked just fine. (for bones at least)

I never used the "smartmerge" option before since I want to have better control about the transfered motion. All I can say is: using the retarget tag and the Skeleton null hierarchy will make the retarget procedure work.

You can test yourself with the R11 demo: maybe Maxon has improved something in the smartmerge mechanism.

cheers,
Gonzo

[indeep]

Thanks Gonzo,
I checked again and my problem was that part of the model rig was was not aligned, and because mirror was used it had several problems in that parts inside MB, all working good enought :)

I will test R11 in this area too.

Off topic question, is there a way to disable geometry selection in the MB viewport?

Thanks!

[gonzo-3D]

Thanks Gonzo,
I checked again and my problem was that part of the model rig was was not aligned, and because mirror was used it had several problems in that parts inside MB, all working good enought :)

I will test R11 in this area too.

Off topic question, is there a way to disable geometry selection in the MB viewport?

Thanks!

I haven't found such an option yet but you can switch your control rig to "solid look", adjust the size of the markers/skeleton and work with handles that are setup outside your geometry in order to prevent selecting parts of your mesh accidentally ... I think, that would be a good question for the MB forum.

cheers,
Gonzo

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