Human mouth / Realism

[Hexodam]

wow... .could you post a wire? ... and maybe the maps :)

[borchert]

HOLY Cr.paroony !!!
I must say that is awesome.
Hope to see som of the different texturelayers !!

[Seven]

Thanks for the reply, I cant post anything at the moment. Im not at home so I dont have access to my files.

Ill post a wire as soon as I can.

Sev

[Seven]

Here is the mesh, very simple boring mesh really. The maps arent very orgainised and i need to refine my techinque before i think about posting them.

http://www.jonberry.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/mouthrender2.jpg

Sev

[Hexodam]

so simple yet so good :)

[Seven]

Well here is an update.. been busy recently so dont have the time do work on it much. Im just seeing what texture / bump map whatever creates the best skin effect. There is no texture on this model just bump map and spec map.

Hmm im not sure really... any hints for making it look more like skin. I would use sss but I dont have brazil :) I think when there is a difuse texture on it, it will look better.

From research I think to make polygons look like skin. You need to make the bump map feel like it was modeled. Not just a smooth surface covered with lumps and bumps. Its in the detail really. I think im progressing well in that area.

I do have a version with stubble (facial hair), it makes it look alot better but ive got to go away for about 4 days, when I get back ill post one with stubble. Gives it a more warn / masculin (spelling ? ) look to it. And more real.

Oh well here it is...

http://www.jonberry.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/mouthrender5.jpg

Sev

[Hexodam]

still looks great :D

skin looks very very dry though, looks like a dead person :eek:

[Clanger]

Looking excellent from my side of the screen.
How on Earth are you texturing as you go along? surely the UV's are messed up when you add polygons.

[Seven]

Im just re mapping it as I go, im taking my time. No rush.

I think one of the reasons it looks dead is because it has no texture and the basic colour I chose isnt the best :) Hopefully when it has a texture on it as well as bump/spec it will have more life. But I agree it does look dead.

Sevv

[ToBSn]

looks great, yeah really :thumbsup:

what for a mapsize do use for this?

[Seven]

Here is an update, its got a basic texture on it / bump and spec.

However it still doesnt have the skin quality I want, i need more opinions. Why doesnt it look like skin ?

Still no stubble (facial hair yet.. to come)

http://www.jonberry.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/mouthrenderskin.jpg

What do you think of the bump lvl, is it to low or to high ? Also is the skin shinny enough?

Sev

[Seven]

2 more...

http://www.jonberry.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/mouthrenderskin1.jpg

http://www.jonberry.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/mouthrenderskin2.jpg

Sev

[IDownupI]

Nice nice

build like this and you will have a GREAt human head

[Seven]

Well I hope to make the full head.. but atm im more interested in getting the skin looking right. Wish I had brazil so I could do sss, im sure that would give it a more fleshy feel on the right settings. But im determined to get it looking right without brazil.

It looks like plastic...

ummmm...

I think ill call it a day on this and carry on tomorrow :) my head hurts :)

Sev

[Seven]

Another update...

I decided it needed more than just a shell with a texture on, it will be more believeable if there was substance. Body parts inside :) Ive toned down the bump map and tried to make the texture more warm.

The teeth texture isnt finished (well nothing is finished) I need to make them duller.

Anyway heres the wip.. how do you think its progressing ?

http://www.jonberry.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/mouthrender100.jpg

Sev

[Seven]

and another one...

http://www.jonberry.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/mouthrender101.jpg

Sev

[Phrace]

huge improvement...that's what I think!

but I think the shape of the teeth is a bit odd...would be more female if they fitted more together...now I don't get the impression she has a healthy set of teeth...especially the upper ones need to be tweaked in my opinion...

keep it up!

[Argon18]

WOW is looking great.
Is going to be a relly nice realistic model.
My critic is that in the last renders, the ones with teeth and color map, skin dosnt looks as realistic as the first shots, the ones without color map.

Not sure but i think that:
Bump map in the nose works good, but in lips and chin the bump map is a bit low (not deep or hard enough)

keep going is loking very good.

[WChestnutt]

Wow!! thats superb modeling and texturing!!

are you just creating more of the skin texture as you create the goemetry, or have you already got a full skin ready?

are you using photoshop to create the texture??

if you keep this up it will come out super real!!

Will

[Seven]

Wow thanks for the replys... really gives me a boost!

I will alter the teeth, I see what you mean Phrace. Teeth are never perfect.

lol Argon18 I cant tell you how much I have altered the bump map settings over the last few days :) Hmm interesting crit, personally I was thinking of altering the bump for the nose. I think its to copy/paste if you see what I mean. Its to similar all over. However I think I agree with you, I will increase the bump around the lips and see how it looks.

unknown limit - I am just creating more skin as I create more geometry. I wish I had a full skin map to work from :) I am using PS for the texture yes.

I will keep you updated.

Sev

[Seven]

Ive started to build more of the mesh...

..edit..

Sev

[WChestnutt]

Cool!!

It's coming together really well!!:thumbsup:

those teeth look much better now!

[Maximus Groff]

she is ... ugly... sorry! Try britney spears! heheh

The techniq is great dude! Keep it up...:thumbsup:

[Naseem]

dame this is a good work :buttrock: , but in any case, i hate to kiss sutch an ugly lips :drool: or perhaps she or he is dead. but other than that gr8 work dude.

[Teyon]

What!? Someone may actually be modeling an unattractive person!? Call the cops! LOL. Great work, keep it coming. I think your earlier problem with the bump map was that it needed variations in color to spice it up (which you can only get from a color map). I can't wait to see this finished...finally, someone making a realistic face that is actually realistic and not "perfect". Keep that perfect imperfection coming!:thumbsup:

[Jango]

Very impressed of your texturing!

How big are the maps.
(the bump must be big to reflect those fine stuff)

can you maybe post a small (if u like watermarked) version? just to see how it should look like

ATM I am dying at texuring. :-(

not sure if your gr8 stuff is depressing or inspiring :drool:

[Seven]

Teyon - exactly, I wanted to make a model that isnt perfect. After all real humans arnt are they. Not everyone is britney spears :)

Jango - The maps are in fact rather large.. about 3000 x 2000. Im sure I could reduce that and not loose any detail in the diffuse map but I need it for the bump. Lots of detail in that.

Here is a smaller version of the diffuse map. Im still not happy with the diffuse map, but it is a WIP. God id lov sss but cant afford it :)

http://www.jonberry.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/smallversion.jpg

Hope this helps, when ive finished ill post more images (im still figuring out how to do it myself :) )

Sev

[Jango]

tnx..
I did not said it cleary, the more interesting would be the bump map ;-)
I fear I must scale mine up, too. 2000x2000 for whole head. Dammit, my photoshop gets slow then :(

cu

[Sharky]

really cool modeling and texturing, I will follow your thread, I think I can learn many things from it ...
:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Cryo_RO]

Yeah like Sharky said , i'm keeping an eye on this thread
I'm currently texturing a face too and having problems with my bump map , especially on the lips , your bump map on the lips is great , what size is your bump map texture? Mine is 2000x2000 for the whole head , but still seems too low

[Seven]

Ok, lllooonnnggg time no update. Ive been totally reworking the face (amoungst other projects). I want the face to be totally animateable and my old model well wasnt. I want my face to be able to create any expression gollum.. *cough* sorry a real human head can create :) hehe. Ive looked at how people who are frankly much better at this than me have contored there polygons. Ive looked at people like Stahlberg and Syomka and then added my own twists and what I think (i emphasize that part :) ) improvements. Im not afriad to 'copy' tricks and techinques from the masters if that helps me get better.

Ive created about 15 diff morph targets (i think) at present for this mouth and I have not yet done 90% of the different phonemes for speak. I have been concentrating on all the other shapes mouths can create that add the emotion to the speak.

Im aiming for creating a total blend of the differnet morph targets so you dont realise there are morph targets. Only then can you believe the mouth and surrounding skin can create any shape and not be limited by pre set positions. Like real mouths.

....edit - newer link lower down - ....

The file is about 800 k im afriad.

So how do you think I am progressing. I have done the same for the forhead and eyes but well I dont want to post them atm, i want to get the mouth right first.

Oh yes one more thing, the render is the control cage not mesh smoothed so there is the odd jagged line or out of place polygon. But it doesnt detract from the mov i dont think.

Sevv

[Gremlin]

so this is going to be a realistic head? or a realitic cartoon head (like eg. bugs bunny with fur and real eyes, etc...) cause so far it looks kinda cartoonly proportioned, but the modeling and textures look cool. Sometimes a "fleshy" look you can acheive by making the skin a bit darker, and then applying a glow to the skin material. :D

Cheers,
:beer:

[golem]

for the shading model you should give a look at

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73777

pages 2 & 3.
you should follow the some comments in order to create a better shader.

for the modeling i'm sorry to say i'm a bit deluded. the lips modeling and bump texture were superlative, but low poly style and proportions's killed the work.
if you surf the treads you will find a lot of good poly jobs in human modeling, the troubles come when you have to animate them.
in low poly you suffer (as we can see in the animation) for the effect of triangles that become overshaded when vertices move out from a range (you know that the position of vertices affect the normal of the triangle and the look in shading).
in high poly is quite hard to prevent segment intersection.

i use to model with patch and results are easier in rigging and animate.
good luck.

golem

[Seven]

Oh guys let me clear something up. The mesh in the *.mov file is / has the same detail as the model on earlier pages of this thread. All thats different is that it is the control cage that I rendered not the model mesh smoothed. When its mesh smoothed it takes a while to render so I decided to render the control cage instead.

There is also no skin texture or anything applied to the model in the *.mov. Its just a default base colour.

It is a realistic head, if you take away the texture from the textured head on earlier pages and take away the mesh smooth it looks pretty much like that :) Atm im not interested in making it look fleshy, that will come later. This is just about the animation.

And as for the head looking cartoony I dont see it to be honest. Ive been looking in the mirror to get correct facial expressions and I dont see the cartoony aspect you can see Gremlin

Oh well ill keep at it :) hehe

[Seven]

Here are 2 images:

http://www.jonberry.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/controlmesh1.jpg

[Seven]

http://www.jonberry.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/controlmesh2.jpg

[Seven]

Small update on the ani, improved some of the mouth shapes.

http://www.jonberry.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ani8.mov

[Seven]

Well here is some lip sync tests. Unfortunatly the dialogue isnt exactly Shakespeare. Its 'ummmm pants'. How I had only done a few of the different phonemes when I started this and one of them was 'P'. I asked my brother to say something with 'P' in it that was short and simple and he chose 'ummm pants' So there you go :)

Now ive done two tests. The first one here is just the basic mouth shapes saying 'ummm pants'. Simple and no emotion.

http://www.jonberry.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/animation1.mov

The second one is the same saying but with abit more emotion in it. This version is me using some of the other mouth shapes that I created that give normal speach some kick to it. Some variation, uniqueness and personality. Not just the basic phonemes.

http://www.jonberry.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/animation2.mov

I personally think the second one is much better. Both halfs of the mouth arnt the same and you can see the person is enjoying saying pants, I mean who doesnt :) hehe

Im pleased with it and glad im taking the time to do other shapes than those of speach.

What do u think.

Sev

[The FreakyOne]

nice :) and ye ai enjoy saying pants too.

whats poking me int eh eye is his tongue isnt moveing. when i saw pants my tongue usually moves back, the way ur otngue is goingit looks like he would be saying "panssssssss"

[Seven]

hahaha your right, i totally forgot about the tounge :)

lol

ill sort that out

Sevv

[neversong]

very nice.

your bump mapping is crazy!!!!!!!!!! hahahaha..

If I were you, I'd try some SSS for the lip area.

It'll give it some more 'live' look, I think.

again, nice work!
:D

[Seven]

i would if i had brazil :)

[neversong]

you are using max??

if so, try translucent material. only if you can find proper setting for it.... I bet it'll be much more crazy!!!!

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