HMC# 16 Michelle Pfeiffer Catwoman

[matsman]

Here's a little kitchen view of me cooking :)

Hadn't really much time but I created a very lowpoly mask to try and get the headshape right and started to put some higher detail eyes and mouth on there.
I will work from them to create the whole face. Will probably not take this to sculpting software... I kinda enjoy doing this :)

http://www.matstm.com/CGtalk/head01.jpg

First thing is to get the face to look like michelle pfeiffer which is hard enough, then the mask will come overtop.

More updates soon!

[matsman]

here is the small update for today. The lowpolymask is hidden at the moment, only use it to line things up to in 3d... eyes, mouth are correctly positioned and I started to lay out the basic pattern of loops. (round the nose and chin, head outline, eye sockets) and started on the nose which I always think is quite troublesome.

This is because noses have so much character. And Michelle seems to have a triangle shape on the tip of her nose... it shows slightly in the model but not enough...

http://www.matstm.com/CGtalk/head02.jpg
BTW yes, this is a smoothed wireframe :P

It is quite early on and I will get you guys some better images when the face is more or less complete but if you see something out of place, or a detail I have to include, Please speak up!

now to finish texturing another project of mine... Cheers!

[Tasp]

The model's looking pretty good so far, your modeling style is pretty interesting, I thought you were going to use the box style but now it seems a little more freeform. I don't have any crit just simple encouragement at this point.

[matsman]

Thanks Tasp, let me explain my reasons for this a little then :)

I basicly see modelling faces has two problems... first there is the main shape and layout, secondly you have the details that really bring the model to the next level as well as give it more believability and recognition patterns.

Personally this boils down to two things.. I like to model straight into detail part by part, even faces. But in doing so I usually lose overview and end up doing lots of tweaking jaw and forehead curves as well as repositioning, what leaves a lot of work since you have to push all that detail around.

The solution is to think in 3d and first make a "point cloud" that marks spots in space that are good reference, corners of the mouth, eyes, around the nose, following eyebrows and cheekbones. Doing this, results for me in a mesh that needs to be retopologized quite heavily for detailing and animation. So I don't even go there since that means struggling with lines and patterns and I find it really a big jigsaw puzzle where you have to define your own shapes.

Instead I model around the point cloud starting more or less afresh but with additional 3d reference geometry. This way I can concentrate on the small stuff and integrating the loose parts while still having the direct feedback of actually being on target in 3d space.

All that sounds pretty scientific but actually this is the second time I try to do this... so it is still a kinda in progress technique :) hopefully It'll take less time to go from picture to 3d with a lot less agitation about being wrong...

Again thanks for the encouragement... I'll be needing it next week after a weekend off from the case, I hope I won't get distracted by other cool project ideas (something I tend to do unfortunately) which is why I am bad at 1.5 month time lines... deadline in a week is no problem... in a day even better, longer than two weeks and I am losing interest and the brain starts bubbling up other cool stuff.

But I really want to make the best looking model I ever did this time... Was kinda a long time ago I did something along these lines, I think about 3 years ago, so I got a lot better in that time.

More images tonight, hopefully some cheekbones so I can check the 3/4 reference.

Thanks for taking interest!

[matsman]

okay another hour and some in... brow added, cheeks coming along, made the connection of the mouth and chin... here is the pic, unsmoothed this time

http://www.matstm.com/CGtalk/head03.jpg
With the model being symmetrical you can notice how the sides differ each other... one eye is slightly lower, cheeks broader, lip a little thicker... all that needs to be fixed before I go to texturing. Make sure I don't forget :)

[matsman]

OKay... here's todays... had some company over so it is a quickie, again... hope to have a little more time tomorrow before leaving the project for at least a day.

I closed the holes in the previous one (have not yet cut all extra lines to lose all the ngons so there are still some smoothing issues) but this gives a nice side by side comparison. 3/4 ref comes in tomorrow to tweak the face and chin even more.

http://www.matstm.com/CGtalk/head04.jpg

Made this small list here, so I know what to do tomorrow:

the tip of the nose needs to be thinner
chin to cheek doesn't flow right yet
issues on the corners of the mouth... always a difficult transition
the side of the nose needs more definition
have to look at the lips once more... probably need an extra loop do define the lips better.
brow needs to be more forward on places
work on the jawline

Do you guys see other stuff I missed and need to fix?

Thanks!

[speakerwizard]

I think you got mostly everything listed that needs tweking, maybe 'plump' the cheeks in the middles more they look a bit flat, looks like that will help with the flow to the chin too. looking great though.

[SantoAnderson]

Hehe,
The black & white background composite makes it look like she's giving me a serious stink eye. You and I kind of build heads the same way. Make sure you take care of those kinks on her cheeks, they make her look tired.

Other than that, cool stuff. Good luck.

-PS, you had company over for a quickie???

[matsman]

heheh.. SantoAnderson.. it's all in your head :) it was a quick modelling session... I'm not that open and personal online :D
And indeed I saw those sagging bags under her eyes... first thing I fixed... thanks!

SpeakerWizard: Thanks for mentioning the cheek... I had not noticed that yet. hope to get it fixed in the 3/4 view.

Today I fixed the brow, the bags under her eyes and worked on the jawline... so three points from the list. Nose seems to need a bigger overhaul then I thought looking at it again... so I'll leave that for sunday
And strangely while trying to fix the chin-cheek thing the corners of the mouth sorted itself out. well kinda :)

http://www.matstm.com/CGtalk/head05.jpg

updated todo list:

the tip of the nose needs to be thinner
fix cheeks and chin to cheek in 3/4 view
the nose needs more work
have to look at the lips once more... probably need an extra loop do define the lips better.

Thanks for helping me find those issues :) if it looks like her half the battle is over!

PS is it me or are her eyes looking bigger in the photo than in the model... it was a clean overlay... maybe the lashes and makeup? or the smoothing?

[ArtisticEndeavors]

Her lower lip seems a bit thick towards the corners of the mouth, and her upper lips aren't plump enough in the parts between the corners and the middle. Look at your side ref to see what I'm talking about.

Remember as a child she got screwed with because of her lips. Ironically her lips are what got her in the door that leads to "stardom"...her talent helped keep her there lol. I tried to find a pic she wasn't smiling in...which is really hard lol

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/54/039_3307~Michelle-Pfeiffer-Posters.jpg

Sorry if it shows that I'm kinda a fan.....lol. other than that the only crit i have is with the nose. that bottom middle part of her nose is a bit thick......but you already critiqued yourself on that one....and her nostrils don't "wrap back in" enough (if that makes sense)

edit-after staring a bit her top part of the nostils (that lead to the bridge of the nose) is a bith thin to...plump it up and after fixing the rest you should see a definite resemblance. I think the cheeks are perfect right now...but your the one that sees what you see wrong with them so i doubt they're prefect.....just looks that way in these renders. Her eyes are fine. Not sure about the brow though. She does have a "I just got punched in my eye" look to the top of her eyes (which you've got here), but from the plumpness to her forehead its smooth, while you've got a bit of an indent. that indends fine towards the center, but I think you brought it out to far

[matsman]

Oh my, ArtisticEndeavors thanks for that ref pic. I am so glad that I got a "bit of a fan" on my side :) that really helps alot since you have been way more exposed to her image than I have.

I really looked hard for some good pictures especially from around the 1990's but while there is an amazing load of pictures they are largely from weird agles or with lots of facial expression, bad lighting... etc... etc. I have found a good bunch useful pics tho, this one I hadn't seen yet. am definitely going to line her mouth out against this pic.

I had no idea of her childhood... BTW not sure I am happier now that I now.

And the nostrils comment makes alot of sense actually... had made a mental note when I opened up the file today... that's why I changed the "todo nose side" to "nose needs more work" :) but thanks anyway.
It's always good I am not the only one who noticed it.

Once again thank you ArtisticEndeavors for your contribution, hope you'll drop in when I have further updates, I value the input of a "bit of a fan" :thumbsup:

PS. If someone has a profile (side) shot with her mouth closed... that would be great... since I made the lips onder a cover right now because they don't line up at all.
Also I kinda want to make a hand but detail on the gloves is hard to find, might get the dvd for that...

[ArtisticEndeavors]

Yeah no problem man. wouldn't want you posting something that looked like her while you could post an image OF her....if that makes sense. After checking my hd for side pics that you can use I've noticed the only side shots I have without her smiling (told you finding one of her not smiling is hard lol) are just screen grabs from the streaming movies I've watched that had multiple favorite actors in it (like scarface) and being that they're just screen grabs from the stream they aren't the best qauality...not at all lol. I'll keep looking on the web for you just in case i find one.

as far as getting made fun of as a child because of her lips
http://img2.timeinc.net/instyle/images/v2/tr/041505_tr_pfeiffer76.jpg
Yeah.....personally I dont see the issue (but I'm biased), but the kids back then did lol. I think it was all because they just didnt fit her face.....but they do now lol

[matsman]

Thanks again man... owe you one. I am going to grant you a customised pose if I make it that far, absolutely great help.

And yeah, I don't know if I would laugh at those lips.. I think I'll fall in love much faster too :)
very pretty.

Thanks for the trouble you went through searching pictures!

[matsman]

Okay I hinted I had some more time today... hehe... so here is update 2... more work on the nose and lips... it starts looking if you ask me.
Oh and I gave the eyeballs some colour... that green freaked my out after about an hour or two :)

http://www.matstm.com/CGtalk/head06.jpg

Eyes can use some more detail right now and the lips can be tweaked some more.

actually I can't wait to see this textured... :p I'm my own fan :blush:

Cheers everybody!

[SantoAnderson]

That last comparison shot looks pretty accurate. The addition of the pupils helped a bunch. Typically I would say to go absolutely nuts with detail and make sure it's accurate to the skin cell, but then I remember this is catwoman and she will (probably) be wearing a mask. Are you going to take this mesh into Zbrush?

[bowly]

really impressed with your likeness, and your modelling techniques. I did something similar once and it worked great but it was just too slow (for me anyway), can't wait to see where you take this.

[matsman]

Thanks guys! was not at home this weekend... will be doing some work on this tonight... probably start with something on the lines of a body... that'll take my head off of the face, ensuring I do the last tweaks on the face with an open mind... otherwise it'll be tiny details all the way and there will be no time for a body.

Bowly: cg stuff is, like everything, just hard work... I think that last picture was after about 11-12 hours of work including searching for reference pics. Which took me about 3 x1 hour I think... That's not that long I think, good z brush users are way faster, but have to retopo afterwards... I did mention I hate to retopologize right? I start eyes with a plane or a tube because of that... :)

SantoAnderson: I am not that good yet with the whole sculpting thing... I find I have to sculpt some things twice or more before they look okay on the model and that makes it very time consuming, at this moment in time. So I'll see if I have time I'll do some stuff in mudbox, haven't had the joy of learning z brush...
I will absolutely do some detail work on the suit with mudbox since folds and creases are way easier that way, even if you have to redo some stuff :)
Also the texture will make a huge difference, but that'll come later.

Oh and yes she will be wearing a mask, that means I won't have to do hair.. I have some pretty bad experiences with max hair and fur... but it got where I wanted it eventually.

Cheers, more tonight!

[matsman]

okay okay... go easy already... here are the updates :p

Yesterday I put some time in blocking out the body and I started in more detail with a hand... which was quite a challenge... look at all the edward scissorhand apliences she has on the end of her fingers. Never noticed there was different stuff on different fingers until now.
And because the lack of good reference and difference in loose and connected "nails" I did a little freeform interpretation, I'm sure you don't mind :)

http://www.matstm.com/CGtalk/body01.jpg

[matsman]

Sorry, no updates today, no work done... am not feeling that great... and a long day at work tomorrow with talking and getting an architectural visualisation done, which basically I have to design the buidings for as well :) fun but hard to do right since it has to be real.

Turning in early, more stuff done tomorrow. http://1.2.3.11/bmi/forums.cgsociety.org/images/smilies/scream.gif -yawn-

[matsman]

Okay updates! started the palm of the hand... and rounded out the body, no big visual differences but a necessity.
http://www.matstm.com/CGtalk/body02.jpg

Also I just heared my plans for the weekend have changed to only evenings so I have two full days... hope to be at the sculpting/detailing stage by then.

I plan to do the bodice in more detail tomorrow and maybe a little more work on the hands and or boots.

Thanks for looking in!

[Quester99]

hey there, matsman. I think that the face really looks like michelle. I was wondering something, though. Is the face done? I personally have a lot of trouble with the eyelids, so I dunno if I should be the one to mention this :), but it seems as thought the crease in the top lid of your model need to be deeper.

[matsman]

hi there! thanks for stopping by... no the face is not yet completely finished, the main thing with the crease is that the meshsmooth well... smooths it :) so I think I need another edgeloop right there. Well spotted!
I plan a final pass on the head once I get the mask and the back of the skull in place.

I always have trouble with skinfolds... mostly because it just is so organic and small. These eyes and the mouth too, have more polies on top so as to actually overlap the bottom parts... and then the trouble is to still make sure the loops are in the right place.
My advice would be to do a study... just model an eyesocket with an eye in it... I recently did something like that to overcome my fear/ hatred of modeling hands, now I don't find it such a bother anymore and I also have a hand lying around that is actually good enough to fix on any character, all be it with slight modification.

Anyway, on the update for today. I got an external HDD so as to finally make sure everything I do is backed up. So I went along and did that most of the evening. Nearly done too, Finally I can sleep soundly at night and do a fresh install of my system somewhere in the future. :cool:
So not that much time, pushed to at least flesh out the boots and the bodice with the latter also having the sewn in ribs defined in the geometry, just needs cleaning and detailing.

Here's the pic:
http://www.matstm.com/CGtalk/body03.jpg

Also I did some quick scheduling in my head... still got 1 weekend and two weeks before the deadline... so it would be cool to finish modelling this week so next week will be texturing and the week after that I could play with some poses and renderings and of course time to fix anything that got left behind....

So that means I gotta hurry up! AAH! :argh:

[matsman]

Okay so all that stuff from the last couple of days was very wip. But here I have a preview render with everything I have made until now.

http://www.matstm.com/CGtalk/preview01.jpg

Yesterday I did some cleanup on the bodice and today I added some details like laces, the same happended to the boots and I finished the hands with a customised claw for the thumb.

Stuff to do before texturing can commence:

mask and final head pass
neck
arm parts for the gloves
stitching all over the suit
folds and creases

and possibly a whip and a cat, but only if I have time :)

And I was thinking... why should I actually texture this? Almost everything is black leather or black latex.. somthing I can do with just shaders only the head has to have a texture...
I think I want textures if only because it will feel more finished and I can turn this into a game character.

What you think about textures? use just shaders or go with the whole complete package?

[matsman]

Later today I have a get together with some friends, first a relaxing soccer match, and then we top it off with a night of karaoke... oh my! :beer:

So here's what I have done for today, corrected the cheeks a little, introduced the back of the head and the mask, hope to do some final small tweaks on the face (including the crease on the eye) before actually uv'ing and also the mask and the suit needs more work

http://www.matstm.com/CGtalk/head07.jpg

and so the todo list becomes this:

final minor face tweaks
neck
arm parts for the gloves
detailing of the suit and the mask
folds and creases
stitching all over the suit

Also wanting to hear what you guys think about texturing this (see previous post).

Cheers!

[SinisterUrge]

The face looks excellent, the topology is very clean and it looks like michelle pfeiffer

[matsman]

Thanks SinisterUrge did the last tweaks on the face today... gonna let it sit until I am ready to uv and texture it...

kinda busy week this week party wise... tomorrow is another one

did some quick work on the gloves, a few tweaks on the mask and am currently trying to get the arms in shape.
But it is hard because most of the ref is black shiny latex or leather overlaid on a shadowy (read black) background in dramatic (black and white high contrast) lighting... so it's kinda hard to see the shape well... think I need to do a search on michelle anno 1990 again this time for bare arms and legs...
And then watch the movie once more to see if I can get a decent shot for the upper torso.

But all that is done on thursday hopefully so I can get some progress going...

Anyway here's the pic... kinda big I know... :)

http://www.matstm.com/CGtalk/preview02.jpg

[Tasp]

It's starting to come together Matsman, I especially like the glove work so far.

[matsman]

Hello everyone! and Tasp especially. Thanks for the reply!

Have you all had just as busy a week as I had... with double sporting events, multiple party get togethers with singing, last minute jobs, crashing renderers and all the stuff you do normally on top of that? :) ah you probably have.

so with all of the above I didn't got to work on this every night that's why the update is so late but I have made progress, most of it today.


Hands, gloves and arms are merged together, tweaks on the boots ( hard to see but they have wrinkles now) tweaks on the mask, redid the ears mainly and started uv'ing. oh and I played with shaders a bit (just a bit)

Tomorrow, finally (pfff), I will bring the body into mudbox for some wrinkle detail and hopefully start texturing the face.
http://www.matstm.com/CGtalk/preview03.jpg


BTW has anyone got a good technique for creating the sewing on the suit. Rather not do it on a highpoly. I thought off using a string of stitches and shaping them over a spline, but that has nasty side effects, like patterns in the stitching, scale differences, and I have to shape the splines exactly on the model.
There is also a technique where you can more or less nail stuff to a surface, which is okay but then the stitching will be mainly straight and I don't feel like adjusting rotation on everything by hand...
so any ideas?

Thanks!

[Tasp]

Hey Matsman, good looking progress. I've got some crit for you, the last few pics have seemed slightly off and I think I figured out what's looking weird to me, her legs below the knees look a little odd, they seem to be turned inwards (her right knee especially). Her toes seem to be doing the same thing and pointing slightly inwards, I'd straighten those out and twist the legs outward a tad for a better stance.

Looking forward to see your detail work, keep going!

[ArtisticEndeavors]

She's coming along very nicely keep up the good work

[SinisterUrge]

For getting the sewing pattern, there is a really fast way of doing it in zbrush. There is two ways, one is using the stitch brush, the other is to great your own custom alpha channel to create the pattern

[Itsgallus]

Hello Matsman.... Nice model man.....

Here is some Critics, if you don't mind:

The overall proportions...it's a bit strange, if you push the female body a bit harder.. like the athletic proportions of michelle pfeifer itself; I mean fix the waist , the Breast area (michelle's breast are smaller than your model) and shoulder.
More slim/sexy appeal proportions....
like this picture : http://www.pfeiffertheface.com/ARTICLES/2007-08-20_Gossip-es/Lecturas01.jpg

and in this same website, there is a lot of pictures of her :
http://www.pfeiffertheface.com/

*Plus...there is a gallery of pics from 'Batman Returns' here:
http://www.pfeiffertheface.com/M_1992_BV_Gall.htm

and as Tasp said...... the legs are odd ......

hope that helps....

keep going dude..... can't wait to see your model on a 'Cat-Woman-' Pose
//Cheers....

[matsman]

Wow! lots of replies! Thanks guys!

@Tasp...
I am aware of the legs, actually did that because the ref was standing with angled feet as well... probably I have been thrown off because of it. Will fix it immediately :thumbsup:

@ArtisticEndeavors...
Thanks for the motivation. its getting harder and harder to spend some time everyday in a busy week... but also because I long for playing games again :p

@SinisterUrge...
-falls on his knees yelling at the sky- "D@mn you ZBrush!!!"
It seems I can't get away from it. I did the math, it is by far the cheapest program with the most possibilities, even though I'd be using only half of it. And it would replace all kinds loose apps merging those into one. I have to get to know it. I have to! but i haven't yet :blush: and mudbox works like I always have worked... I am a weakling ...

:) okay I'll look into it. But I kinda resend using millions of polygons if 30 well placed ones will do.

@Itsgallus...
No problem, bring on the crits!
I know it isn't right yet but I can't figure it out. I think it has to do with the all over proportions since I have been working on arms and legs separetely with their own references since I can't seem to find a good full body shot showing everything clearly.
I actually have the site already in my bookmarks for this project almost leached it dry...

I will go in and fix the waist area... that looks bad indeed... breast smaller... check, always smaller... these are actually stand ins :p for until I had better ref, but I hadn't :blush:
Shoulders are too big? I thought so... I think there has been a scaling issue when working on the arms yesterday... I'll try to get it right.

And what do you think is a great catwoman pose? all fours tail in the air? :p or the seductive bed pose from the movie? or maybe the chair and whip?

Anyway... I'll be working today... i'll post another image later.

Thanks everyone! really helpful!

[ArtisticEndeavors]

http://www.pfeiffertheface.com/
At the beginning of this thread you'll see I call myself a fan, but after looking at that website (that I knew nothing about) I now longer call myself a fan. Maybe I'm a fan of a fan? lol

[matsman]

Okay so here is the update, first part of the day I struggled with the proportions and corrected as best I could all that was said.

I think the main thing was that her head was to small and the torso about 2-3 inches to long... which threw everything off. But I also did some work on the breasts the arms, the shoulders, the legs, the waist and the bodice, since that didn't fit any more...

I also noticed that the white of the checkers really mattered and made it hard to see what is wrong so I did a render in all grey for ya. Feel free to say anything that comes to mind.

http://www.matstm.com/CGtalk/preview04.jpg

then it got sunny and hot, and me being under a roof and no climate control devices at hand hot is actually quite hot. So I did some shopping, some lounging around, some household chores as cooking eating and cleaning the dishes and then I crept behind my pc once more and I started max... and then I did the wrong thing... I made a basic guy and turned him into a swat cat (I viewed an episode during dinner) So I wasted some 2.5 hours on those two models... (http://www.matstm.com/CGtalk/unrelated.jpg)

which means details are for tomorrow evening... and I am a complete ass. Hope it gets cooler the coming days.

Happiness and the ability to keep your head to your work to you all :)

Thanks!

-edit- @ArtisticEndeavors
Don't worry about not knowing about that site... it's just a front page google finding... nothing to be embarrased about :p No really be happy you found it! I think it is actually the best fansite I ever came across so be a fan of the fan that build it. He deserves it. And spend some time in that fandom heaven :thumbsup:

[matsman]

Okay so I came home al fired up and ready... power out... no fuses left... it was a short night... tonight I'm meeting some friends so it's probably getting late and tomorrow, with a little luck I'll be playing some soccer and will be tired afterwards... so that makes it thursday until my next evening free... sheesh I think the world is against me sometimes.

Luckily tomorrow I have a day off (since I actually finished project today) so I'll be putting in some work then :D (got you there didn't I :p )

So more of an update tomorrow... damn I want to see this thing finished already.

[Itsgallus]

And what do you think is a great catwoman pose? all fours tail in the air?

lol...maybe a pose with a milk, or in a sandbox.....what do you think ?? :p
just kidding......
i 've found a good website with a good poses, but those are not played by Michelle Pfeiffer, but are great for reference:
http://www.gothampublicworks.com/catwoman.htm

and as you mentioned, for good pose , that from the movie (the seductive bed pose) is cool too....

so.... for the proportions i think that it is a little bit odd....can you post the Front and the side view of your model ??? the breasts are just a little bit on the middle......
here is a picture from the book 'Atlas of human anatomy for the artist' ( of Stephen Rogers Peck, a excellent book for anatomy), i 've marked the blue lines, of the proportions of the waist, hope that helps....
http://helderalves.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/female-proportions.jpg

//cheers

[matsman]

ooh I so love the saucer of milk idea :) That's one I gotta play with.

sorry for not updating in about a week... life's coming at me with a new gaming project starting for a new client and my internet connection giving me trouble.
And I have been so tired lately. Basicly I come home from work, do some shopping on the way, at about 6 thirty, then I cook myself a meal, eat it and turn in for the night before 9 o'clock. Which leaves me with... let me think... yes, NO time to do anything at all.

So now you know.

Thanks Itsgallus for replying and helping. I am not quite sure I agree on all points. However I will check your points before I can honestly not agree. Hopefully tomorrow and then I will upload some front and side views as well as some reference. Also keep in mind she is wearing a corset which is partly shaping the waist area.

But more later... At least let me thank you and I thought let me share what happened over the past week, now that my connection works.

See you later, don't give hope up on me yet!

[Itsgallus]

hello matsman....Nice to see you around again....

Also keep in mind she is wearing a corset which is partly shaping the waist area.

oh yeah, man.... there is nothing strange with the waist, I mean that the waist is strange comparing to the shoulder area, this is the reason i've made that blue lines on that reference. Or maybe of this angle i can't see right through, maybe in the front view is good to make a study with that reference....

and good luck with your new projects....

//cheers

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