Free Wmp video and "Bug" not feature demo

[ediris]

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Edgard


That is why it worked with my fish exported as FBX but didnt when created inside ANimator. WOW incredible. What a major BUG. Hopefully they will fixit for v8.

[plsyvjeucxfw]

Thanks for investigating this Alonzo. Your two videos speak volumes about the missing weight map feature. Like you, I hope this is addressed in the next update.

[Vizfizz]

Hello Alonzo,

Nice job. You have identified a couple of the issues I've found as well. The biggest being not being able to see the initial influence of the bones upon the skin upon the initial binding of the skin to the skeleton. However, I've discovered a few more issues that I'm going to address in a video of my own. Matter of fact, I'm working on it now.

Generally I have found that grayscale strength maps DO work in EI, but there are serious, limiting caveats that must be address depending on what version of the program you are using. Those will be apart of my video as well.

I'll try to fully elaborate skinning theory in EI vs Maya to help elaborate the main problems.

Thanks for your help.

[Vizfizz]

You've also properly identified the fact that independent weight maps for every bone is the best solution for proper influencing of the skin. If you were to export out weight maps in maya you would have exactly that. A weight map for each bone. You can even see within Maya when you export out weight maps and transfer the maps onto another character with the same skeleton, you can see the geometry snap into place the moment the weight map for that particular bone is read.

[ediris]

Probsbly there is probelm with the library that EI uses for bones. WHich versuion is it? 6.5
Will it mater if i for example export a model with bones setup with a FBX 6.0?
Thanks
Edgard


Probably there is the missing link

[AVTPro]

You've also properly identified the fact that independent weight maps for every bone is the best solution for proper influencing of the skin.

This is probably one the biggest pit falls. Pre-FBX, Strength Maps use to be one map for multiple bones. Post FBX, due to other FBX systems, was changed to one bone per weight map. I don't think it was ever documented or even communicated from the programmers to the Beta Team. I happened acrossed it and then had to tailgate and shadow til I got answers.

I have projects where weight map were a whole arm skeleton or torso was one weight map. A whole "natural-S spine" of seven (7) bones used only one Torso Maps in Animator. Though that changed, old project rigs still work in newer versions of Animator as long as they rigged in an earlier version. Probably 5....or Universe.

It's probably only because I did use Maya during the FBX beta testing that I was able extrapolate that EIAS wmp scheme was change to be compatible with Maya or other FBX schemes which used one map per joint.

Getting any concrete answers about the change from "the Programmers" was a more like a game of "Riddle me this" or esoteric Zen response. Anyhow. EI fall-off was harmed during FBX. It slipped because everybody was focused one FBX and not EI based skinning. EI can read FBX weight map smoothing but can not generate it's own weight maps grayscale smoothing. LIke a rigid bind not a smooth bind. The scheme of how EI wmps are implemented was changed and I believe undocumented.

Lastly, with EI current scheme of "One map per bone", unless Animator has a auto weightmap function (like Maya) generating a wmp per bone manually for a full character skeleton...is bonkers. This is why I have "as needed" approach during my DVD. This would be a good reason why they just chucked the system after they got FBX functioning.
One spine would be seven manual weight maps. That would be impratical. Animator would have to autogenerate maps and auto average it, unless you had a technique that made it production worthy. I believe the other tutorial makes sense of this. As it stands, Weight maps for character is EI can only be approached...correctively editing stray points. ...


Anyway, I got wind from Peter on Platter B that you were instigating and doing movies, so I wanted to "ADD" to the solutiion by donating my findings. These were done some time ago. I thought I was going to be a advisory board member for the CA upgrade in which I would have brought this info to the table.

Lastly , Kurt and Ediris, your welcome. Hope it helps. Again EI is a great middle of the road CA tool. It's fast and fun. They just need to fix weight "generated in Animator".

One of EIAS biggest problems is communication, courtesy and respect from it's contractors and employee to it's prosumers.

I mean...we are all geniuses...programmers and artist...let's treat each other with class and respect.

[Vizfizz]

I think you can see why multiple weight maps for each bone is necessary in the more modern systems. Its crucial as rigs get more sophisticated and technologies advance that individual weight maps make more sense, especially when trying to interexchange data. I don't think EI weight maps were harmed, per se, but rather just not fully implemented or completed when the new skinning engine was installed. Its like the programmers failed to finish things up and potentially used the idea that they'll get back to it later. At least the basics were there. FBX may have also clouded that issue as well. Everyone was hot to trot for FBX and other CA things took a back seat.

EIAS obviously already "auto generates" weight maps for a freshly skinned object. The problem is it doesn't give the user access to them. The manual already states that it is employing an averaging system so those weights must be getting reasonably smoothed to begin with. I've also tried using the texturing system and multiple sets of pre-created gradient fades to map onto surfaces to control fall off. But that's only practical on the more simpler forms of geometry. As geometry complexity increases, it becomes hard and harder to place a texture actually to tweak such critical information. Painting becomes the only logical methodology.

I think you'll find my tutorial pretty self evident. If this doesn't get it across... nothing will.

Uploading it now.. I'll post a link when its ready.

[AVTPro]

Check and Double on both paragraphs you have written on both subjects. I just think they weren't finished. I said "harm" for a lack of a better word. I'm not defending "one map to several bones' vs. "one map per bone". As soon as Animator skinning began to interchange with other sophisticated skinning systems it's dialect had to change. I believe as you do "fall off" just "Fell off". Programmers do face clouded issues when implementing interexhange data. Example, the only reason FBX in Animator doesn't have texture import is because the question of whether UV center (0,0) is center quadrant or bottom right quadrant tile was never officially answered. It was just left undecided and being so enthused about having UV import or any type, leaving it seemsed like a small thing, until you try to import a FBX model with 1000 textured parts. I say center not bottom right or whatever it has to be to make it import from Maya correctly and automatically.

But who really knows why Wmp in EI wasn't completed but the programmer? Point is, this should've been an open communication that everyone was aware of. Maybe nobody knew there was a problem if old project still worked but someone knew the "Wmp Scheme" changed and it was not made general knowledge. I haven't read the manual, but I don't thing the new skinning scheme was documented either.

I agree also on your last paragraph and as I noted in my vids, there is some type of auto-weighting going on as you say, we don't have access to the maps. As it stands, even if the fall-off worked, skinning would still be tedious without Animator providing the maps in the dialog after a bind. If anything, I believe issues like this is why it was the skinning is not fully completed. Programmers would have to consult Experience Animators inorder to solve these problems and honestly I didn't have the CA experience at the time these question arose. (Hence my reason for learning Maya, to be an informed CA for EI.)

I'm not really trying to hammer the programmers. We all appreciate their work. It's just there's some things that could be better. That's normal. Every artist faces "could be better" on every project.

BTW, thanks and I'm looking forward to your video.

[Vizfizz]

Programmers would have to consult Experience Animators inorder to solve these problems and honestly I didn't have the CA experience at the time these question arose. (Hence my reason for learning Maya, to be an informed CA for EI.)

I'm not really trying to hammer the programmers. We all appreciate their work. It's just there's some things that could be better. That's normal.

Well to be fair, I should have stepped up sooner about this problem but I was fighting my own battles over in Paralumino land. Now that that's freed up I can focus my "harmful activities" on other issues that need attention.

Seriously though. It must be difficult to be a developer. They're pulled in so many directions their heads must spin. I really do sympathize.

[AVTPro]

Well to be fair, I should have stepped up sooner about this problem but I was fighting my own battles over in Paralumino land. Now that that's freed up I can focus my "harmful activities" on other issues that need attention.

Seriously though. It must be difficult to be a developer. They're pulled in so many directions their heads must spin. I really do sympathize.


hahah. "harmful activities" Yes. It must be very difficult to be a programmer and they deserve a free license to insult and abuse people. haha.

Don't take it too hard Brian...look at all the good you have already done for EI. We know you are one of EI's "Finest" Champions. Anyway, They have had a few choice words about me for years now. haha. Sometimes people just take things the wrong way. With all the time I spend behind a computer...my social skills could use some sanding too. haha.

Gotta Love them. People even programmer just need to try to be nice to other people. It's not so hard. It feels good to be nice.

[plsyvjeucxfw]

I was thinking about Alonzo's videos and some things (feature ideas) popped into my head.

Since Alonzo chooses to 'unbind' a bone rig from it's geometry in order to add a new bone it might be an advantage to 'keep' or 'reuse' a previously painted set of weight maps rather than loose hours of work with a new calculation.

Also, I don't see an option to export the weight map for tweaking in a paint application.

[AVTPro]

Hey Kurt, I don't think Animator loses the wmp from the skin if you unbind. I don't trash the wmps. I use to do that just to make sure everything is bound properly. it's reall "iffy" one way or another..

[ediris]

Hi evryone, does anybody know how do you avoid painting across you surface. i cant avoid isolating my painting, like visible only is the option in C4D , in Maya i dont remeber that was to long ago. ;)
Thanks

[AVTPro]

I don't understand your question, Ediris. Can you elaborate or do you have a pic?

[ediris]

Ok i post sopme pics with a brief explanation.

You see pic1 it really doesnt matter if i paint over due to the MIDTALE Bone influence the left and right side of the fish.

But on the other one which is just the L FIN Bone, it needs to be precise .
When painted on , is being painted on the other side of the surface.You cant not see from these angle but if you tun your view i am painted on many different areas.
Here you go :)
Thanks
Edgard


What i am basically looking for is not to paint on the other side of my object.

[plsyvjeucxfw]

Hello Ediris,

in the smaller dialog box, the one with the color slider, there is a box marked "Cull Vertex".

Uncheck that box and you can paint on one side only. It won't go through to the other side.

Hope that helps.

[AVTPro]

Sorry, I wrote back earlier but had some problem posting. I second Kurt. Cull Backfaces.

[ediris]

Thanks Kurt :)
For my surprise i feel much more conftrouble painting in EI , a smooth or blur tool will be amazing to have. Thanks ALonzo.

Edgard

[AVTPro]

You've also properly identified the fact that independent weight maps for every bone is the best solution for proper influencing of the skin. If you were to export out weight maps in maya you would have exactly that. A weight map for each bone. You can even see within Maya when you export out weight maps and transfer the maps onto another character with the same skeleton, you can see the geometry snap into place the moment the weight map for that particular bone is read.


I demonstrated in those video that we EI uses "one map per bone"

So why do we need strength maps "Post FBX"?

[Vizfizz]

Because FBX is a data transfer protocol between applications and in such, not a replacement for a correctly functioning skeletal and skinning system. We still need weight maps in EI so rigs folks can make their own solutions within the package.

[AVTPro]

Because FBX is a data transfer protocol between applications and in such, not a replacement for a correctly functioning skeletal and skinning system. We still need weight maps in EI so rigs folks can make their own solutions within the package.

Hey I am a EI rig folk! :) I don't see the need from them. Unless I feel like to doing two steps instead of one or working in reverse.

EI Strength maps=Maya Weight maps. Maps are only useful with a bone. Bind the bone and the map is generated. Use the newly derived map to begin editing.

Generating a weight map first is painting blind again, not based on available values in the skin or guessing at what is going to happen to the other maps. If you design a map first your are forcing all the other maps to somehow "move over" or recalculate all new solutions on previously set maps. Is the "hold" loop again.

Generating a map from the bind booleans out existing available value leaving previously painted work intact where as generating a map then forcing it upon existing paints effects the reshuffle of several prepainted maps.

Maybe it's semantics but other apps seems to work fine without having to generate a map first then associating an arbitrary bone to it. Other apps give the precedence to bone not the map.

[Vizfizz]

Its definitely an issue symmantics... and I'll prove that in my summary post. Stay tuned.

[AVTPro]

Thanks Brian...I think understand what I'm driving at.

Old Strength Maps:
1. bind whole skeleton (30 bones in torso).
2. Define which bones affect the arms only by painting a new strength map for them.
3. Attach the arm bones (4) from the skeleton (30) to the weight map.
4. These bone no longer effected the rest of the mesh.
5. Do the same for the other arm and torso.

Conclusion: 3 maps needed to skin a character.

New Strength.

1 Bind the skeleton (30 bones)
2. Disable Default weight by "inverting"
3. Or first add one strength map for the default values to feed into.
4. Convoluted workflow. Confusing. Re-establish relationship with God and ask for Miracle.
5. If geometry doesnt start to mysterious disappear ..keep going. If does. Call client.
6. Try paint 30 strength maps before deadline or call client.
7. Impossible workflow leads to random assault on innocent victims.
8. Try Maya.

FBX EI Maya Stength Map.

1. Draw Bones.
2. Bind.
3. Export/Import FBX
4. Bind Skeleton. Done.

Optional:

5. Ponder why All 30 strength came in automatically from Maya , yet EI doesnt generate it's own.
6. Ponder why we even need Strenght Maps in the first place since no one would do 30 per skeleton even if they could.
7. Or watch TV with extra time for skinning in maya and import FBX into EI..
8. apologize for assault on innocent victim in last procedure or eat donut to relieve guilt.

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