3dsmax price increase

[mattmos]

Excuse me? I think you'll find xsi hasn't been raising prices - rather the other way around. The have cancelled the cheapest product but the price for xsi essentials is still rather less than the £3,000 for a seat of max.

[ThE_JacO]

yup for all those 3dsmax wannabe's out there...the price has risen for a full version
in the u.k the price went up.

see price>
was £2695 plus vat now it's £3050 plus vat
also subscription went up 27% a while back...subscription is now £375.00 plus vat

i supose this falls in line with xsi raising their pricing of their products.

also for those who are on subscription already..note there's new stuff for max 2009 available such as things for particle flow, poly reduction and multitrack sound in max.

XSI made essentials into advanced features wise (bar behavior) and priced it up, but for all intents and purposes they basically moved to advance as it was before being less than half the price and called essentials instead.
It also didn't just add hair and fur, it came with a lot more than that.
Advance was padded with behavior and additional tokens and had the price cut by 30%
FND was cut off.

Saying Softimage raised their pricing is pretty inaccurate at best.
It's also somewhat unrelated to the piece of news since I doubt AD raised their prices because of Soft changing their line-up around, not to mention that was what, a year ago?

[cresshead]

xsi raised the price of essentials a while back to also include hair/fur

and getting off the topic of xsi this is a news item of note seeing as 3dsmax has not raised it's pricing since 1996 with 3dsmax1.0

[mattmos]

Seriously, xsi essentials is £1,745. How do you relate that to 3 grand for max again? Hardly 'in-line' now is it?

And I'd agree it is a news item which would be fine if not for the misleading statements about xsi.

[cresshead]

okay i seem to have woke up the xsi fanbase!...

would it be okay to say xsi essentials and 3dsmax now occupy the same pricepoint?:)

anyhow for those looking for 3dsmax the price has gone up..though if your on subs or you get subscription there's a few new goodies in there too with multitrack audio, poly reductuion and some new particle flow goodies....and of course the unlimited render nodes for mental ray via backburner are still available for those huge mental ray scenes you'd like to renderout.

[cresshead]

should have made it clear my comparison is taking the $ pricing when comparing xsi ess to max.

XSI Essentials - Win 32/64 bit
$2995* (USMSRP)

http://www.softimage.com/products/xsi/buy/default.aspx



autodesk 3dsmax 2009
Create stunning 3D in less time with Autodesk® 3ds Max® 2009 software.
$3,495.00

http://store.autodesk.com/store/adsk/DisplaySubCategoryProductListPage/categoryID.10101800


do we have a link tio uk pricing on xsi for what it's worth to compare uk like for like?

[mattmos]

http://store.softimage.com/store/Products/Details/default.asp?fam=false&ITEMID=253&lang=en

for the uk pricing. Fair enough if you're talking about the dollar pricing. Is the uk price on max really £3,000? Seems a bit steep compared to the dollar price?

[cresshead]

yeah autodesk just more or less changes the $ to a £....ouch!
as per ususal in the u.k. we get stung but not as bad as with adobe products which are 2.5 times the price of usa.

[-JT-]

Yes the price in Europe is amazingly high, it's insane, especially with the weak dollar.

Speaking about Max, there is a very interesting blog post : Here
(http://area.autodesk.com/index.php/blogs_ken/blog_detail/whats_the_future/)

[yog]

I have my subscription due this month, and for the first time in several years I will be letting it lapse.
Partly because I don't do as much Arch-viz as I once did (which MAX excells at), but because MAX is becoming less value for money when compared to the other tools I use. I have also become disalussioned with the development in MAX, for the last few releases the main improvement has been the upgrades to Mental Ray, which isn't even part of Autodesk.

I know this will in the long term finish my use of MAX because of their punative upgrade policies (miss one release and then have to pay double next time, or more if you miss a couple releases), but I just don't consider it value for money any more. :shrug:

[MarkD]

I expect more parties on aircraft carriers...

[Lone Deranger]

So $3495 US price vs. £3050 UK price? That's a difference of $2555 or £1287. Now matter how you spin doctor that with tales of local markets and different economies, that just doesn't add up. :surprised

MarkD: Awesome avatar!

[6foot5]

I wonder if they'll have the cheek to attribute this to high oil prices.

[doCHtor]

Max costs $7200 (with current exchange rate) in Slovakia (EU) who will give more? :deal:

[aaraaf]

I was always under the impression that Autodesk was a Canadian company with a bit of a US front. There are a lot of US offices, but the work seems to be done a little further north.

When you call tech support for Max you usually end up with a Canadian. Or at least it's been that way in the past for me.

:shrug:

[alexyork]

the price of max has always been ridiculously high in the UK. i just bought a 1 year sub of max at the previous price point and it will be the last time i upgrade next year (for free as a result).

i also just bought xsi 7 essentials with a 1 year sub - at almost half the cost of max - in order to move my production over to xsi permanently.

it's a no-brainer frankly.

[Venkman]

Wow, people can say what they want about Autodesk having a stranglehold on the industry, but if enough small businesses (not the giant FX houses) keep switching away from Max and Maya, Autodesk will finally have to react.

[cresshead]

well reading between the lines of ken's blog, looks to me that 3dsmax is about to jump up a massive amount features/capabilities with their R & D to deliver future versions.

so that looks like autodesk's reaction to recent updates of other software...not dropping prices but extending 3dsmax.

maybe something like mudbox + vray inside max and maya?

[lo]

well reading between the lines of ken's blog, looks to me that 3dsmax is about to jump up a massive amount features/capabilities with their R & D to deliver future versions.

so that looks like autodesk's reaction to recent updates of other software...not dropping prices but extending 3dsmax.

They've been saying that for years, and up until now its been absolute BS. Each version has been worse than the previous.

maybe something like mudbox + vray inside max and maya?

LOL! If something like that EVER happens I will personally go down to Autodesk HQ and kiss every single employees ass.

[cresshead]

They've been saying that for years, and up until now its been absolute BS. Each version has been worse than the previous.



LOL! If something like that EVER happens I will personally go down to Autodesk HQ and kiss every single employees ass.

you made need to buy some lip balm for your trip then...
could just be...

http://area.autodesk.com/index.php/blogs_ken/blog_detail/whats_the_future/

[lo]

Sorry but that does not sound promising to me since I've heard Autodesk make similar statements before every release.

"This time it's gonna be awesome! We can't give you one piece of solid information, but seriously, keep that subscription money flowing in!"

Not disrespecting Ken, I understand it's his job and he's under limitations from above.

He's right in saying words are cheap, I'm waiting to see what they give us.

[spacefrog]

maybe ken's PR initiative in the recent days has more to do with this "soon to be officially announced" price increase and not the big things that will come?

If you read ALL of his blog-entries and post here, you will find some counter-argueing ( does this word exist in english ,-) against "too high expectations" for SIGGRAPH and "nothing groundbreaking" etc...
But those "great announcements/future's looking bright" stuff has been going for way
too long in my eyes...

As trained ADESK customer i expect this to be hot air, nothing more
but if it great things will happen, i'd be happy of course;-)

[BigPixolin]

With the last few sub-par releases of 3dsmax they have absolutly no right to raise the price.
For 3 versions now people did not get their money worth IMO.

[cheebamonkey]

As trained ADESK customer i expect this to be hot air, nothing more
but if it great things will happen, i'd be happy of course;-)


holy crap how does one become a trained autodesk customer!??!


I think you're word-f***ing his blog by mixing words out of context to make it look like PR hot air.


Read again, then comment more precisely.

[spacefrog]

monkey:

precisely like your comment ?

[Strang]

I expect more parties on aircraft carriers...

hehe and think of all the people that DONT own a seat of 3dsmax that are at those parties. we thank YOU for the venue!

[ccherrett]

Hey didn't the price of Blender just go up as well? :)

[Venkman]

Hey didn't the price of Blender just go up as well? :)

Yeah, Blender costs twice as much as it did last year. ;)

[Bucket]

i supose this falls in line with xsi raising their pricing of their products.



You should do yourself and everyone else a favor and remove this part of your news... As it is a guess and you even admit it is a guess. It's misleading to toss your oppinion in with news. Be caereful how you word things. You are implying AD actions are influenced by SI's actions.

[subtlebluetones]

Yeah, Blender costs twice as much as it did last year.

and well worth the price increase :D

[cresshead]

You should do yourself and everyone else a favor and remove this part of your news... As it is a guess and you even admit it is a guess. It's misleading to toss your oppinion in with news. Be caereful how you word things. You are implying AD actions are influenced by SI's actions.

your wish i my command ohh master:)

i think the BIG news item is that autodesk raised their price of 3ds max 'at all' seeing as it has remained at it's 1996-1997 initial release until today when all around it prices have been going up and down like yo-yo's in the rest of the 3d apps over the last 10-12 years.

note except for a price DROP of £200 a short time back...and now a 17% increase...

[rayboy]

I've let my Max sub lapse and my Autocad one also. I'm currently immersing myself in XSI and eagerly awaiting v7.

I'm sick of Autodesk's business model,

the costly yearly upgrades of little value,
the abhorrent practice of "retiring" older, but still perfectly functional, versions of programs which means that you are forced to buy a second (full priced) time if you want to get current.
the constant tampering with file structure to make new version files unusable with older versions.
the dishonourable conduct over Motionbuilder licenses
the nasty letter telling me I've installed it too many times (on the same pc believe it or not!! - I like to wipe and reinstall all my apps every 6 months or so)
the total lack of innovation
the buying up of every company in sight which only serves to reduce OUR choices (don't they have a Monopolies Commission over there?)
the high European prices vs the US ones (they are not alone in this practice, I know)
Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely, ergo, I'm out.

[jugger]

was there actually any press release or anything announcing the price increase?
i checked with my old max dealer and found it increased from 4200 to 4600 euro (results in $7100). not that i care any more, i stopped at max7 and didnt used it at all the last year after i moved my company to xsi some years back.
i just wonder why they increase the price.. whats the message or reason? its not that added value is presented, isnt it? actually i always anticipated a price drop for max.. as it was already the most expensive plugin collection in the market. funny....

[Steve Green]

For those complaining about the price increase, I take it your daily rate/salary/rent/mortgage/fuel bills are the same as 10 years ago?

I'm more surprised that Autodesk have managed to keep it at the same price for so long to be honest.

Anyone who's read my posts on the Max forums will know I've been no fan of current direction, or my view that there has been a distinct lack of innovation lately - but this seems a curious thing to criticise them for.

- Steve

[jugger]

the point is the competition not the prices of rent or bread... if others can sell more value for the buck.. i dont see a chance to raise prices.
or how would for example sony sell a photo camera thats older and weaker then a kodak one and still raise prices? just plain market laws.... thats all...
i was asking of there is a official statement from AD.. i am just curious of the reasons.
maya or xsi price changes always came with complete explanation of whats behind it...

[Lone Deranger]

Good tidings for XSI (and other apps) by the looks of it. :)

[lo]

For those complaining about the price increase, I take it your daily rate/salary/rent/mortgage/fuel bills are the same as 10 years ago?


I don't think you analogy is apt. Are you paying more for computers than you were 10 years ago? Chances are you're paying less.
It is not reasonable to look at a pricing trend in one field and use it to justify unfair pricing in a different one.

It's legitimate to complain, because the previous pricing was already too much, especially for non-US customers, not in comparison to the pricing 10 years ago, but in comparison to the other products available on the market today.

[yog]

For those complaining about the price increase, I take it your daily rate/salary/rent/mortgage/fuel bills are the same as 10 years ago?

I'm more surprised that Autodesk have managed to keep it at the same price for so long to be honest.
- Steve
It's not the base price I'm complaining about (although I do think it is way too high compared to similar products), but instead the yearly subscription, and it's value for money.
When you take out the Mental Ray upgrade, that is not developed by Autodesk, £500 ($985) a year for a very meagre upgrade is just not good value.
My XSI maintenance cost is actually higher, but in that case I gladly pay it because I have never failed to receive what I consider to be my monies worth from the yearly upgrade.

[cresshead]

well for thoose on subs there's the new additions released for max just a few days back which added
1.particle flow box#1 [and the developer of that plug is now back working for 3dsmax and has been for some time]
2.poly reduction tool
3.multitrac audio and 3d mixing, tying sounds to objects in the scenes etc with 100 audio tracks...was the boomer labs plugin btw.

for me i'm still using max 2008..have 2009 but not installed it and still prfer max 9's for the h key and show hide object lists and the functioning crop bitmap and crop render which are currently broken by the rather stupid move of getting rid of the dashed line and putting a solid line in there for no reason i can as of yet figure...also many people has issues with zbrush object brought into max 2008 and max 2009 commpared to max 9...

for me max is still pretty good...some new stuff is good and some new stuff was bad ideas to change for the sake of change..i simply detest the view thingy in 2009 but rh click gets rid of it and i have remapped my old select by name to the h key...tis what i'm used to!

re price increases...tis suprising that in the last 10 years they have NEVER incresed the price...

are we in fact starting to feel the move to a maya/max app...with a bit of mudbox and motion builder in there too...by moving the price UP it's getting closer to maya unlimited so maybe the transition from maya unlimited and 3dsmax to APP XXX is what it's all about really?

we'll see

and there's plenty of options for those who don;t want an autodesk solution still;)
lightwave
modo
cinema4d
houdini
xsi
formz
sketchup
messiah
blender
hexagon
wings3d
zbrush
3dcoat
vue
bryce
daz studio
carrara
poser

so autodesk don't OWN 3d as yet!

[alexyork]

those other apps are great choices if you're not in the architectural visualisation field. however if you are we're still in the position where you pretty much have to use autodesk products, just to make sure you can work with your clients' files and deliver files that colleagues can work with. not to mention years and years of established working practice that makes switching to another app far from straightforward.

however it's doable, and I am going to try to make the switch. there are a few minor things XSI is lacking for arch.vis but they will hopefully be addressed soon and there are always workarounds.

the main thing for me was the money - being freelance xsi (or practically any other non-AD app out there) makes far better financial sense. but i have also been personally treated like crap by AD lately and that's just not acceptable. I was treated extremely well by soft when purchasing recently, not just financially but in customer service, which is extremely important in my book. it's not just me that feels that AD is treating people like crap either - a quick glance at the Area forum or any other max-related forum and it's pretty obvious long-term customers are seriously thinking about switching.

i'll be clear on this - i don't want to have to switch - i've been using max almost as long as i've been using computers - switching my pipeline is a major decision and I'm only 1 person, not a big business. but when you put together the cost savings of xsi, far superior customer support, a sense that they are really pushing things forward rapidly and, importantly, a package that doesn't make you want to rip your hair out for the bugs every 10 minutes... well...

[cresshead]

i'm going off topic so forgive me!

for arch viz nearly all other apps are along way away from 3dsmax in regards to features that you'd expect/need to have such as lighting analysis, ies lights, realworld measurment systems , dwg linking, physcially accurate materials and simple stuff you'd miss like autogrid
renderable splines, doors, windows and a huge lib of arch materials...vray!

for arch viz alternaties to 3dsmax>

formz
sketchup [vray]
lightwave [ies lighting, realworld units]
modo [ies lighting, real world units, construction grids]
maya

other apps arn't really set up for day to day arh viz technical needs but you can still make
realistic images with all of them if you need to

[Steve Green]

Regarding other applications - XSI's foundation price was unsustainable and it has now been removed from the product line up. Max and Maya have the largest slice of the pie, so it's expected that others would be competitive in their pricing. Autodesk keep saying how well Max has sold - so why should they cut prices?

I don't know how long people complaining about prices have been in the industry, but I remember the SGI/Alias/Wavefront/SI days.

Quite frankly, I'd rather pay more for a product if I knew that the development team was being increased, rather than say the situation with combustion where the product is pretty much stagnant and a lot cheaper than what it was.

And regarding prices of technology - I don't think you can compare the price of software development with the price of hardware.

If you've got, for example a 40-strong team of people working on an application, expenditure is going to increase, unless there are layoffs (which has happened), and it will change again when the development team is increased (ditto)

Unless Autodesk are breeding some Mekon-headed coders that they don't pay, or are outsourcing a lot more, I don't see how it is possible to perpetually maintain a certain price point.

How long did people expect AD to hold this price for?

Yes, I wish there was more in an annual upgrade, and yes, the international pricing sucks (but Autodesk isn't alone in that regard), but I absolutely don't have a problem with the base price, or them feeling it necessary to raise it.

[alexyork]

stephen - no offense intended here but i've been in arch viz for about 4 years now so I'm familiar with what we need to do the job :)

lighting analysis is a nice bonus but is by no means a necessity for our work. in fact i can't see me using it for much at all besides some planning projects. even then it's not crucial.

ies - they're great but not mission critical by any means. trad lighting is more than adequate.

the only things missing from xsi that I really need for my work are (as you mentioned) DWG import, customisable units and a controllable dalylight system with TOD and location inputs. there are workarounds for those already available.

the other things you mention are not really that useful at all in everyday arch-viz projects (such as parametric windows etc). the library of materials with MAX is minimal, serves as nice base template for your own materials but you can (and should) make a "huge" library yourself. physically based materials would be great in xsi but MR is MR is MR - there are 3rd party shaders available to get this stuff to work in XSI.

edit - and vray is on its way to xsi soonish, so i'm sure we'll have even more choices available to us.

[alexyork]

I don't know how long people complaining about prices have been in the industry, but I remember the SGI/Alias/Wavefront/SI days..

i think i remember a time not that long ago when a seat of Maya with an SGI workstation and support would set you back around $30k. i remember thinking this was a pipe dream at those prices! things have certainly changed.

[Bullit]

"the only things missing from xsi that I really need for my work are (as you mentioned) DWG import, customisable units and a controllable dalylight system with TOD and location inputs. there are workarounds for those already available."

I think i converted to DXF when i needed to use a DWG architecture project.

[Steve Green]

How many MR render nodes does XSI come with these days?

- Steve

[cresshead]

by the look of this pdf you get 6 cpu's to render in xsi essentials for mental ray compared to 10,0000 via backburner for 3dsmax.

http://softconnect.softimage.com/xsi/prodInfo/files/XSI_6.5_ComparisonChart.pdf

[Steve Green]

Thanks,

I wasn't sure how many it was - so that's something else to factor into the price if you've got more than 6 cpus to render out to, and are using MR.

Cheers

Steve

[Stinkfist]

So $3495 US price vs. £3050 UK price? That's a difference of $2555 or £1287. Now matter how you spin doctor that with tales of local markets and different economies, that just doesn't add up. :surprised


They do weird stuff like that all the time. I think I rememeber Adobe charging £1000 and €1000 for Flash, in complete and utter disregard of exchange rates.

[cresshead]

Thanks,

I wasn't sure how many it was - so that's something else to factor into the price if you've got more than 6 cpus to render out to, and are using MR.

Cheers

Steve

yeah that's cpu's so if you had quad core cpu's you'd get 24 cores to render with in essentialswhich isn't bad really....say 3 mac pro's running bootcamp!

[ThE_JacO]

Quite frankly, I'd rather pay more for a product if I knew that the development team was being increased, rather than say the situation with combustion where the product is pretty much stagnant and a lot cheaper than what it was.

While I agree with that line of reasoning, I think people's complaint is that the price has been kept high during no innovation times, and is being raised before any significant innovation is presented, or rather while they publicly declare none will be for this year.

I'm happy to pay for strong RnD myself, but normally I would like to see some bang for the buck after it, not to be told "hey, pay 10% more please because we aren't releasing anything this year nor we really have for the last two while you were still paying premium anyway"

The reasoning works, it just might not apply here if so many users who haven't had a problem paying through their nose insoafar, showing they aren't cheap if they get mileage out of their money, are disgruntled :)

[inguatu]

yeah that's cpu's so if you had quad core cpu's you'd get 24 cores to render with in essentialswhich isn't bad really....say 3 mac pro's running bootcamp!

we get *ed on Maya with Mental Ray, all around, including render nodes. Thanks Autodesk for continuing the tradition of bad MR support for Maya.

[cresshead]

actally that maybe down the the licence alias signed with mental images back in the day...as when autodesk signed up for intergrating mental ray into 3dsmax their deal was unlimted render nodes via backburner...also i believe maya has a much better pass system for renders with mental ray than max..unless i heard wrong of course!

as for future versions of 3dsmax...we'll have to wait n see..i'm sure not totally tied to any ONE 3d app...ilready use 3dsmax and lightwave and have an old xsi foundation sat around too.

[inguatu]

actally that maybe down the the licence alias signed with mental images back in the day...as when autodesk signed up for intergrating mental ray into 3dsmax their deal was unlimted render nodes via backburner...also i believe maya has a much better pass system for renders with mental ray than max..unless i heard wrong of course!

as for future versions of 3dsmax...we'll have to wait n see..i'm sure not totally tied to any ONE 3d app...ilready use 3dsmax and lightwave and have an old xsi foundation sat around too.

true, things may change this go around with Nvidia in the picture as the puppet master for MI now. Are you referring to multipass? It's definitely not better than some of the other apps out there. Framebuffer is still crappy within MR for Maya. I always wondered why Autodesk never offered to bring backburner to Maya to simplify some things for people. I'd gladly use Backburner since it would be free :)

[ThE_JacO]

actally that maybe down the the licence alias signed with mental images back in the day...as when autodesk signed up for intergrating mental ray into 3dsmax their deal was unlimted render nodes via backburner...also i believe maya has a much better pass system for renders with mental ray than max..unless i heard wrong of course!

I couldn't honestly say render layers are exactly on par with what I came to expect for pass management from other softwares, and it's usually the first thing I see replaced in most pipelines anyway. Sometimes because support for AOVs in renderman, even with prman studio, is lacking in customisability, sometimes because even the ootb one for mray (written by MI for AD I believe) isn't exactly stellar.
Framebuffer dumps/channels, if it wasn't for ctrl_studio, would be pretty much useless in my experience.
I don't know MAX's implementation of these features to be honest, so I can't run a comparison.
This is probably going OT though.

[Steve Green]

Well, I guess it's the whole thing of having to pay in advance before you see anything in return - I'd have to agree that Autodesk have been relying on user loyalty/reluctance to switch/retrain in the past couple of releases.

I expect whatever 2010 brings is going to be the decider for even more people - I know some people have already decided to let their subscriptions lapse, and it will be interesting to see whether this is reflected much in the wider user base or not.

Personally I think it's just going to be the one-man shops that are going to jump first, but I've no idea how many of that type of user there are.

We've had the promise of an increased dev team - and yes, 2009 was brought out in half the time, but it was half a release (if that) in my eyes.

It is really time that Autodesk showed something significant.

[teleman]

Is there any news about Maya going up too?

[inguatu]

Is there any news about Maya going up too?


no. Complete won't go up because Ultimate is at a competing price with Houdini and XSI proper.

Also, I was just told by my reseller the same thing.

[ThE_JacO]

no. Complete won't go up because Ultimate is at a competing price with Houdini and XSI proper.

XSI proper?

XSI has two versions, Essentials and Advanced, but they don't follow the same feature scheme of Maya anymore and haven't for a year or so now.

Essentials doesn't miss a single feature that advanced has.
Advanced only adds behavior (which is a separate app for HFSM based crowd sim, now pretty much being obsoleted by ICE) and more rendering and processing tokens, so it's considered a studio/batching convenience, not a more featured packaging like Ultimate.

Ultimate competes with Essentials in terms of features, which is 3 grands in the US, and nowhere as over-fee'd up in the UK, Advanced still costs less than Ultimate.

Houdini plays in its own price range and market, so the comparison hardly applies. The full thing is more expensive than Ultimate (although not by such a ludicrous margin as before), but they're also different beasts and H arguably comes with a lot more punch in terms of rendering licenses and gadgets.

[fgdf]

If you're a citizen of EU country you can buy 3ds max in Germany or Spain for lower price and use it in your own home country - its LEGALL and it's common especially in GB :] Just read the license. It's not a law issue. Resellers may not be willing to sell software to companies/individuals from other countries it's becouse of corporate policy by Autodesk and Co.

European Union law stands higher than license agreement (which used to be against EU law for some time after my country joined EU)

[cresshead]

latest version is available on dowload from www.thepiratebay.org (http://www.thepiratebay.org)

actually the latest version of 3dsmax is available on www.autodesk.com (http://www.autodesk.com) , the people who create and develop the software not pirate bay who steal the software.

there's 30day free damo and for students the student version is VERY well priced

pointing people to pirate bay just lowers your proffessional standing in my opinion to the street gutter.... if i were you i'd edit the post, say sorry and delete it before your banned

[scrimski]

Looks like someone hijacked his account and is spamming now on CGT. Don't click any of his links!

[fgdf]

please delete

[DuttyFoot]

i know that Ad lowered the price of complete and unlimited in the us by a few dollars

Looks like someone hijacked his account and is spamming now on CGT. Don't click any of his links!

i just realized that too in the news section of cgtalk. about 10 or so links from him about some viagra crap. i guess someone did hack his account.

[Boone]

Autodesk have finally managed to merge Z-Brush functionality into Max?:curious:

Oh no, wait, they are just merely taking the piss...:rolleyes:

[inguatu]

Autodesk have finally managed to merge Z-Brush functionality into Max?:curious:

Oh no, wait, they are just merely taking the piss...:rolleyes:


yeah because if they didn't do an implementation based on what YOU want, you'd bitch about it being half-assed. :rolleyes:

Continue taking your piss.

[inguatu]

XSI proper?

XSI has two versions, Essentials and Advanced, but they don't follow the same feature scheme of Maya anymore and haven't for a year or so now.
.

yeah.. I'm 99.9% postive you know what I meant.

carry on.

[Boone]

yeah because if they didn't do an implementation based on what YOU want, you'd bitch about it being half-assed. :rolleyes:

Continue taking your piss.

Well, it doesnt really have to be ZBrush functionality(it could be anything) but as a customer being asked to fork out an extra few hundred quid I DO expect something in return for that price increase.

With nothing to justify a price increase then Autodesk ARE taking the piss. Especially when the last few updates have been lacking and the competition(XSI) are offering substantial improvements(ICE).

As for saying "I'd bitch about it being half assed" I say get your facts straight: I am a 3dsMax user of at least three years now and think its the best of the "full-solution" packages. All I am "bitching" about is a price increase that gives bugger all in return.

[opus13]

I don't think you analogy is apt. Are you paying more for computers than you were 10 years ago? Chances are you're paying less.
It is not reasonable to look at a pricing trend in one field and use it to justify unfair pricing in a different one.

It's legitimate to complain, because the previous pricing was already too much, especially for non-US customers, not in comparison to the pricing 10 years ago, but in comparison to the other products available on the market today.

You were so close... yet so far. That's a craptacular attempt at a parallel.

Although manufacturing processes for hardware have become more streamlined and are producing cheaper prices per part... software has gotten significantly more expensive. People make software. People cost more. Their rents cost more, their food, insurance and everything else. If the cost of prioduction goes up, the final product goes up. That's it. End of story. In time everyone else will raise their prices as well.

In times of inflation the last person to raise their price is the loser. If you haven't already.. guess what?

[cresshead]

You were so close... yet so far. That's a craptacular attempt at a parallel.

Although manufacturing processes for hardware have become more streamlined and are producing cheaper prices per part... software has gotten significantly more expensive. People make software. People cost more. Their rents cost more, their food, insurance and everything else. If the cost of prioduction goes up, the final product goes up. That's it. End of story. In time everyone else will raise their prices as well.

In times of inflation the last person to raise their price is the loser. If you haven't already.. guess what?

so WHO designs new hardware?....like err video cards, cpu's..have test beds for them etc...smaller dies...new labs.....we don;t get quadcores designed from robots yet do we?

[lo]

You were so close... yet so far. That's a craptacular attempt at a parallel.

Although manufacturing processes for hardware have become more streamlined and are producing cheaper prices per part... software has gotten significantly more expensive. People make software. People cost more. Their rents cost more, their food, insurance and everything else. If the cost of prioduction goes up, the final product goes up. That's it. End of story. In time everyone else will raise their prices as well.

In times of inflation the last person to raise their price is the loser. If you haven't already.. guess what?

You've misunderstood me completely.

I'm not saying that because hardware prices are down software prices should be down as well.

I'm saying that just like there is no connection between hardware prices and software prices, there is no place for comparing between rent, oil, rice or cocaine prices and software prices.

[ThE_JacO]

yeah.. I'm 99.9% postive you know what I meant.

carry on.

Sorry, I honestly didn't know, I thought you meant "proper" as in the top version in the assumption other apps package features like Alias did for Maya.
I'm being particularly dumb this week apparently, as I still don't know what you meant.

...and no, I'm not being sarcastic or anything, even if that's usually my basic state of being :)

[tc]

well reading between the lines of ken's blog, looks to me that 3dsmax is about to jump up a massive amount features/capabilities with their R & D to deliver future versions.

so that looks like autodesk's reaction to recent updates of other software...not dropping prices but extending 3dsmax.

maybe something like mudbox + vray inside max and maya?

<OT>
Spread this kind of information not a good idea. It's bad for the software and for yourself.

First thing will happen is that people will be waiting for that "miracle" that can or cannot happen. It's too soon to say anything about the future of the software.
Sure they are sleeping with this dead duck for years, decide what they gonna do in a company like Autodesk with 300.000 users is more than complicated.
Convince the company that make a lot of money from CAD that they need to pay to redesign something that is lead in the market (today), is really really hard.
This kind of thing you are speculating, like put Mudbox inside of Max or maya... It's not as simple as it sounds (not at all), and it could be pretty hard to deliver this in a realistic/stable release, specially if you consider that it need to work seamless with all the other areas/cof-plugins of the software.
And even if they can finance all this, they still need to have a lot of very good engineers that really wanna do the thing, which is still questionable at Adsk as all of the people came from acquisitions.

Second because all in all, this blogs are just business. I remember the "will be lots of surprises this week" on his blog (http://area.autodesk.com/index.php/blogs_ken/blog_detail/tick_tock_almost_time_for_a_shock/) and the big surprise was the Design version of 3dsmax.
So if he considers a big surprise to chop a few features and launch something with a new name, I wouldn't be expecting much from "a new adventure" or "our Roadmap" to dominate the world. At least I don't get disappointed if things go wrong.

<rant class="everybody knows">
From all the updates 3dsmax had in all the last years, let me remember you:
Character Studio, Orbaz particle flow, to Havok, Cloth FX, Shave and Haircut that was hanging in a window like it was barfed in there... to pretty bad Mentalray integration, that took two dev cycles just to get it "usable"...
Without talk about the latest upgrades that's just funny to see. Seriously it makes me laugh.
Did I forget any pluguin?
</rant>

So is hard to believe on their ability of design/develop something from scratch. And I also question their passion about this thing. For me until now they are just playing the business game and that's all.

Now lets consider that you pay for this thing, and you keep hoping that Vray will be the viewport of the future 3dsmax super ultra power. Ok let's consider they did it all correct.
Now look back and see that XSI did this rewrite 8 years ago, and then two other core revisions... then the latest one is ready for XSI 7 with multi-threading and a lot more stuff that we gonna see in future releases. Just look XSI development history to see how fast they had evolved the platform after the launch of XSI 1.0. Just to remember that it was the redesign of Softimage|3d, which had a lot of history in developement and research including the first implementation of IK. So they kinda knew what they where doing when they started XSI.
Now look how long it took to XSI to just get it really ready(version 3?). And to get something like ICE?

<slow talk>
Now Adsk finally saw.... that both of their 3d softwares are old... so ok... let's start now... to think... what to.. do.. with the 300k customers... that want Vray... and mudbox...
</slow talk>
I'm sorry but I don't have time for this bs.

So rewritte a software that is on the marketing and is "leading" isn't something simple...
Just look the (https://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/1998/feb98/nmneespr.mspx) other (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/1997/aug97/moviespr.mspx) software (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/1997/feb97/drmwkspr.mspx) that was leading the market back on the 90's. So yes things can change with this thing of "lets make the platform of the future".
Specially if you are wondering of add a complex architecture like Mudbox and etc in a 3d suite that need to do much more than just sculpt.

I personally think Ken failed pretty bad with that post, trying to keep people excited about 3dsmax.
Better if they didn't say anything and show what they can do.
Is not hard to see that it's a pretty bad idea to trust on a blog and pay more for a software that is dying slowly.

Anyway I know you gonna keep waiting for all that "capability"... so keep waiting. But I would keep my mouth shut until Adsk show something.
</OT>


Back to the thread... honestly, this is just ridiculous to put the price of that software up. Really, there's nothing to justify this.
They didn't have a single update that worth a maintenance fee for the past 4 years or more. They are more than rich to finance their own thing, I think people is just blind to help Adsk try to drag this industry to another Photoshop era, where they will keep charging as much as they want, and people will NEED to pay because it's the "standard".

But give me a single reason for the price go up 1 cent.


-tc

[Kabab]

Because we live in a capitalist society which revolves around $$$

Success is based on who has the most $$$..

Autodesk has lots of $$$ which means lots of power which means they can do things which other companies simply cannot afford to do for better or worse.

[yenvalmar]

that autodesk has always had a very reasonable student pricing policy, this all may have changed since my student days but back then it was only a few hundred bucks and also the only decent 3d program that could even RUN on a pc you could buy yourself, as opposed to an $10-300k sgi...

and also that back when 3ds max first came out even at the full price it undercut the price of their largest SGI based competitors by some huge amount. i imagine this was a big help in their gaining market share and later being able to crush those same competitors.

you could have all refused to buy it and then autodesk wouldnt own maya and maya would still cost 20k and max would still cost 3k so us maya users would be screaming. its all so confusing isnt it?

[CGTrader]

But give me a single reason for the price go up 1 cent.

-tc

Because it is already industry standard at some point. I'm not talking about large studios with sophisticated in-house tools, but 300k customers (or even more) with largest base of plugins, tutorials and etc. Why does this happened with the app you all are bitching about? Well, to me it's about ease of use of this app. Of course there are many other things to reckon in. Many companies started with max will think twice before switching their pipeline from one soft to another. It is not so easy to replace your company 10 or 50 seats main app with much more sophisticated app like XSI (which means even longer learning curve) when your main concern is client's satisfaction, tight deadlines, profit and so on.. And AD knows that. Even more they have all the statistics about their sales. Thats why they raised their prices. I hope one day Autodesk will loose it's monopoly and will have to play by industry rules not by the ones they make themselves.

[Gingerhammer]

My subscription to 3DSMax expires this week. I found out about the price increase, I think, from a post by Cresshead a few months ago. I didn't receive any notification from Autodesk nor my Reseller. (Thanks Cresshead for the heads-up) 27% is a very substantial price-hike whatever the product whether the amount is pennies to [you] or not. For me the price is expensive. I stick with it because of familiarity and, from what I hear, even the apps created more recently from the ground up have an equal amount of issues - oh, also the fact that Autodesk say a licence can't be sold-on second-hand so-to-speak.

I will be renewing but I can't say I am 100% happy. Does communication cost too much for Autodesk to make a statement such as 'due to increasing costs, generally, and of R&D we are having to increase the price of Subscription by 27%' or 'the 3DSMax R&D team have come up with some earth-shattering ideas that will take extra financial resources to realise - and subscription customers will be the first to get their hands on the update'.


Overall, I think when you break down the costs and look into the costs of equipment needed in other industries it doesn't look too bad for us.

[lo]

the 3DSMax R&D team have come up with some earth-shattering ideas that will take extra financial resources to realise - and subscription customers will be the first to get their hands on the update'.

Holy crap! There's a 3DSMax R&D team?! :surprised

[cganimator]

How many MR render nodes does XSI come with these days?

- Steve

For Essentials - No network render node + 4 Satellite CPU.
For Advanced - 5 network render node + 24 Satellite CPU(because each render licence can have Satellite CPU. Local+5 Rendernode = 6 x 4 = 24)

Satellite render is the same as distributed renderinf in V-Ray, Using multiple machine for a single frame. Basically if you need render farm, you need to buy advanced.

Let assume a company has 5 artist with 50 machine render farm.
If you go with 3ds max with V-Ray.. $3,500 + $900 = $4400 x 5 = $22,000
If you go with 3ds max Mental Ray .. $3,500 x 5 = $17,500

If you go with XSI.. $5000 x 5 + $1000(not sure but I think it's close) x 25 = $50,000


And...yearly you will need...

3ds max(subscription) -> $500 x 5 = $2,500
XSI(maintenance for advanced) -> $1,000 x 5 = $5,000

[withanar]

You left out all the extra costs of the various Max plugins you might also want or need to buy. Thinking Particles, CAT, etc.

XSI does not need as many additions to get an entire character pipeline complete from start to finish. However, if you do need additional plugins for whatever reason, XSI probaby won't have them.

[Lone Deranger]

And of course all the Windows licenses you'd need to buy (and the pain and costs of maintenance associated with that OS). With XSI you at least have the option of running on a free distro of Linux.

You left out all the extra costs of the various Max plugins you might also want or need to buy. Thinking Particles, CAT, etc.

[Boone]

Because it is already industry standard at some point. I'm not talking about large studios with sophisticated in-house tools, but 300k customers (or even more) with largest base of plugins, tutorials and etc. Why does this happened with the app you all are bitching about? Well, to me it's about ease of use of this app. Of course there are many other things to reckon in. Many companies started with max will think twice before switching their pipeline from one soft to another. It is not so easy to replace your company 10 or 50 seats main app with much more sophisticated app like XSI (which means even longer learning curve) when your main concern is client's satisfaction, tight deadlines, profit and so on.. And AD knows that. Even more they have all the statistics about their sales. Thats why they raised their prices. I hope one day Autodesk will loose it's monopoly and will have to play by industry rules not by the ones they make themselves.

Agreed. The only thing I will say is that Autodesk cannot rest on their laurels too much though: If they dont deliver then customers will begin to look elsewhere - studios included. But I dont see that happening just yet.

[Boone]

Holy crap! There's a 3DSMax R&D team?! :surprised

Good one!:beer:

[Betrayal]

The pricing is a ouch! but theres always the option of Blender ;) which is pretty priceless.

[ThE_JacO]

For Essentials - No network render node + 4 Satellite CPU.
For Advanced - 5 network render node + 24 Satellite CPU(because each render licence can have Satellite CPU. Local+5 Rendernode = 6 x 4 = 24)

Satellite render is the same as distributed renderinf in V-Ray, Using multiple machine for a single frame. Basically if you need render farm, you need to buy advanced.

Let assume a company has 5 artist with 50 machine render farm.
If you go with 3ds max with V-Ray.. $3,500 + $900 = $4400 x 5 = $22,000
If you go with 3ds max Mental Ray .. $3,500 x 5 = $17,500

If you go with XSI.. $5000 x 5 + $1000(not sure but I think it's close) x 25 = $50,000


And...yearly you will need...

3ds max(subscription) -> $500 x 5 = $2,500
XSI(maintenance for advanced) -> $1,000 x 5 = $5,000

What if a company has 5 artists and 10 renderboxes? then it becomes 3x ess and 2x adv for a total of 3x3000 + 2x5000 = 16000 VS 17500.
Also why using 25x batch nodes, without knowing the price, in the example when you could just get another 5x adv and have spare licenses of the gui client if you upsize temporarily or want to dual box?
Not that either situation is any more likely than the other, but while the info was correct, the examples seem to be a little bit biased :)

[tc]

You left out all the extra costs of the various Max plugins you might also want or need to buy. Thinking Particles, CAT, etc.


+ a decent volume shader + compositing app.

[cganimator]

What if a company has 5 artists and 10 renderboxes? then it becomes 3x ess and 2x adv for a total of 3x3000 + 2x5000 = 16000 VS 17500.
Also why using 25x batch nodes, without knowing the price, in the example when you could just get another 5x adv and have spare licenses of the gui client if you upsize temporarily or want to dual box?
Not that either situation is any more likely than the other, but while the info was correct, the examples seem to be a little bit biased :)

Well... Our company has 5 artist with 50 box, but many times even 50 box is not enough. 5 artist with 10 box seems "biased" to me.

You can do 5 adv instead of 25 Mental Ray, but it is still lots of money.

[cganimator]

You left out all the extra costs of the various Max plugins you might also want or need to buy. Thinking Particles, CAT, etc.

XSI does not need as many additions to get an entire character pipeline complete from start to finish. However, if you do need additional plugins for whatever reason, XSI probaby won't have them.

3ds max also does not need many additions to get an entire character pipeline complete from start to finish. Some people likes CAT, but it is not "Must-Have" or "Need to Buy". It is just "Good to Have".

Thinking Particles, too. It is not "Must-Have". TP is good tool and I like a lot, but if you don't want to spend more money, PFlow is good enough.

There are some "Must-Have" plugin like Afterburn and Fume. But XSI does not have a solution for this. At least 3ds max user have a solution.

Many people have a wrong perception about 3ds max plugins. Nowadays you can do most of your work without plugins. At work, I only use V-Ray and TP(because we already have, if we don't have had, I would have just use PFlow).

+ a decent volume shader + compositing app.

So.. XSI users don't use compositing app? I think most XSI house still buy compositing app.

[Lone Deranger]

You were saying? (http://www.softimage.com/products/xsi/ice/imgs/XSI7_ICE_volumetric.jpg) ;)

There are some "Must-Have" plugin like Afterburn and Fume. But XSI does not have a solution for this. At least 3ds max user have a solution.

[tc]

So.. XSI users don't use compositing app? I think most XSI house still buy compositing app.

In lot's of places the main compositing tasks (color correction, comp agains plate, image retouching, texture manipulation, grain, apply reelsmart motionblur, etc...), are done in XSI.

You can finish things for sure, but of course that a more advanced compositing would be done in a another software.

There is also the advantage of having a compositing software inside of the 3d software. You can link compositing attributes to 3d scenes, manipulate textures that go in mentalray shaders with compositing effects applied to it, paint in raster or vector and see in 3d objects in the viewport... etc.
So you could save some money with that.

About the 50k price you mention before... You could also buy 8 x XSI Advanced, and use the interactive license to run xsibatch.
Then each Advanced would be like 6 Batch licenses.
That would give you 48, for about $40,000. Then you could buy 2 more Batch.

Soon you will be able to buy Vray for XSI, which hopefully would give you those free rendernodes too.

[cganimator]

You were saying? (http://www.softimage.com/products/xsi/ice/imgs/XSI7_ICE_volumetric.jpg) ;)

Yeah.. I saw that image before. It may do something Afterburn can do, but not Fume. Let's see how good it is.

But.. even though you add Afterburn in my previous calculation, XSI is still more expensive.

Anyway...

The reason I post my original post was I want to show "real cost" not just package price.

[Lone Deranger]

I see your point that you're trying to get across, but I think you'll find that "real cost" differs greatly depending on who you ask. Blanket statements don't apply in this industry. Your definition of real cost != somebody else's definition of real cost.
I just bought XSI7.0 Essentials for a total cost of less than £1000 (upgrading from FND 5.0). It's render licenses/tokens more than covers for my available hardware and I have no real immediate need for any additional plugins. So basically, I'm done shopping for less than a grand. That's 1/3rd of the price had I purchased Max. :eek:
With those savings I could shell out for another 8 core Mac Pro for some extra rendering horsepower. :D

The reason I post my original post was I want to show "real cost" not just package price.

[C0-182]

yup for all those 3dsmax wannabe's out there...the price has risen for a full version
in the u.k the price went up.

see price>
was £2695 plus vat now it's £3050 plus vat
also subscription went up 27% a while back...subscription is now £375.00 plus vat

(.removed personal opinion on max vs xsi ess price point.)

also for those who are on subscription already..note there's new stuff for max 2009 available such as things for particle flow, poly reduction and multitrack sound in max.

Hey, Command0-182 here. :buttrock:(eys I r aswesome ;))

Man...price raising in max...sucks (fortunately I already have a copy). I wonder if it wouldn't be worth it, just to take a class in something like...java or photoshop or whatever at your local community college, just to be able to qualify to buy Autodesk software from studica (http://www.studica.com) or Journy Ed (http://www.journeyed.com/home.asp).

[parallax]

I'm afraid any possible effort to ramp up the R&D and the product, is a little bit too late.
I think the tipping point has already been reached, all around me people are swithing from Max to Cinema, because of the pricing (people going freelance often can't afford 5K for software) and because lots of peeps have been switching to OSX, and like the C4D-After Effects integration.

The only thing that can save Max is a massive price decrease, and spectacular value for money. The floodgates are open, it's do or die for Autodesk. Maybe they should read more Gladwell & Godin books, cause they're pulling a Microsoft on the consumer.

[kiko]

this is typical monopolistic behaviour by Autodesk.
corporate profits take pre-eminence, users have no choice but to pay thru the nose.

And don't forget to dish out to buy a pc if you want to keep using motionbuilder (the new version is only available for Vista, and after ditching MacMobo, I wonder how long before they dump MacMaya)

I miss Alias...

[cresshead]

I'm afraid any possible effort to ramp up the R&D and the product, is a little bit too late.
I think the tipping point has already been reached, all around me people are swithing from Max to Cinema, because of the pricing (people going freelance often can't afford 5K for software) and because lots of peeps have been switching to OSX, and like the C4D-After Effects integration.

The only thing that can save Max is a massive price decrease, and spectacular value for money. The floodgates are open, it's do or die for Autodesk. Maybe they should read more Gladwell & Godin books, cause they're pulling a Microsoft on the consumer.

i don't think 3dsmax is going anyway...it's THe most widely used 3d software on planet earth...and be fair...3dsmax has NEVER raised it's price from it's released date back in 1996-1997..so 1 price increase in 10 years is not 'the tipping point'.

as for cinema 4d i just detest their pricing stratergy with the module approach, having to have all of them to be current just to to make cinema work ...

ie if you update cinema all the modules do not work...ie advanced renderer...you have to update them also.

i'd sooner spend my money on maya complete than cinema studio and all the modules to get animation, fur, toon features and a half decent renderer.

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