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withego
07-31-2008, 04:02 PM
Small Importons and Irradiance Particles Tutorial.
They are not just useless toys, they does WORKS GREAT.

Since that the "Importons and Irradiance Particles thread" seems to be idle, I decided to share my findings by opening a brand new thread.

First Thanks to Max (Ctrl Studio) for recompiling the Ctrl_Ghost Settings.
A big thanks as usual to the "Mitico" Dagon, to find out the correct way to use them effectively.
Before to proceed with the technical details, I really hope we will get some feedback this time, from the guys at "Autodesk" and "Mental Ray" former "Mental Images" now owned by "Invidia".
I would like also to stress out, that I find pretty insane that Maya & Mental Ray artists
like myself, must invest several years and put a lot of efforts,
debugging the Maya & MR software, testing and trying to get basic
and new unimplemented features to work as expected...!
Quote Dagon from the "Importons and Irradiance Particles thread":

"I think we should ask for a contact (a forum with bug reporst, wishlist, etc?) with the mray developers, or at least with the OEM integrators (anyone has ever known who's for maya?)"

"I dont know, is not a personal problem, i think we should start to make a petition (or something like this) to ask better support on the autodesk side."

Please excuse my little off topic complain.

Now back to the main topic...!

This new features requires a good knowledge of MR, so before to mess around with this new settings, I suggest to all the young MR artist out there, to go through the other
MR threads such as "VRay-like interior renders with mental ray???" and the new "Six Tuts On Light And Shade // mental ray for Maya" by FLOZE, first.

After reading through the "Importons and Irradiance Particles" thread, I was thinking that if we could get them to work, it will be a small revolution in Mental Ray rendering, since this settings will allow us to use MR in a Vray fashion.
So I start to test them with the tecniques explained in the thread, with simple Cornell Box maya scenes.

Quote Max from the "Importons and Irradiance Particles" thread:

"A couple of things to use Importons and Irradiance Particles in Maya2008SP1.
You should avoid any maya shader:

'Suppress all Maya Shaders' should be checked. 'Export with Shading Engine' instead shouldn't be checked, in the shading engine node (tests were made with mia_material).
The same goes for lights. 'Suppress all Maya Shaders' need to be checked, and a custom light shader should be supplied (mr sky portals work good).
Finally, in the Rendering Settings, goto Translation->Customization and de-check the 'Export State Shader'."

After a few crashes and a few disappointing results, I decide to test them with my standard MR settings and with big surprise everything start to work out AMAZINGLY FINE...!

So based on my tests, to make this features work in Maya2008SP1:

0. You can use any maya shader.

1.'Suppress all Maya Shaders' shouldn't be checked.

2.'Export with Shading Engine'instead should be checked.

3. The same goes for lights. 'Suppress all Maya Shaders' shouldn't be checked, and a custom light shader should be supplied (mr sky portals work good).

4.Finally, in the Rendering Settings, go to Translation->Customization and check the 'Export State Shader'.

With this settings everything will work as expected, and you just will get a warn message from Mental Ray during the Importon Ip calculation which goes like this:
"PHEN 0.3 warn : maya_state(): Called on an unexpected ray."
Which I guess is safe to ignore.
I've tested this features by rendering both from the main render window, and from the batch render.

Quote Max:

"Another feature that comes with mr3.6+ is an advanced framebuffer memory management. Indeed, the cached mode. When in cache mode you can render any image size (even on 32bit). In fact, if enabled, only a small fraction of the resulting image (or user framebuffers) is present in memory: newly rendered tiles and tiles recently accessed.
This mode should be used only for batch rendering (it will crash maya if used for the render view.. also it does not make too much sense rendering big size images in a viewer). I just rendered a 20k image, in floating point, on a 32bit system. Slower than the others methods, it should be used only if mr is not able to create a framebuffer of a huge size (generally more than 4k images on 32bit)."

By creating first a user framebuffer from the Render Settings window, with standard RGBA (Byte) 4X8 Bit, feeding the advanced framebuffer memory management, in the miscellaneous section of the Ctrl_Ghost Settings window, with the value (1), I've managed to render EXR
floating point, big size images on my Intel Quad 9300 32bit system.

Without any crash, and I also get rid of a tedious error message
which was saying that MR couldn't create the main framebuffer(0).

Max please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm not a MR programmer...!

Please note that all the rendering tests, was done with 2 very heavy maya scenes:

The Jeff Patton exterior which is almost 197 MB. huge size caused by the XFROG trees.
The Jeremy Birn Christmas Interior is almost 193 MB., because this scene is filled by evermotion high detailed 3D objects.

Here we go with the result of my small reseach:

http://www.samui3d.com/gfx/christoldfggismall5hrs.jpg
1. This image was rendered without Ctrl_Ghost Settings, with the old FG/GI algorithm.
Maya 2008sp1 with MR Physical Sky/Sun & Mia X Materials only, and one Portal Light behind the window.
The Light emitting from the wall lamps, the Christmas Tree lights and the Fireplace, was achieved through the additional parameter of the Mia X Material, to which I connected Mib Light Surface shaders.
Please note the light blotches caused by the light emitting objects.
Based on my tests, too achieve a good light distribution, you should just increase the FG filter, or increase the FG Density and Interpolation Points, which will also increase render time insanely.
Render time with 50 Interpolation Points: about 5 hrs.
http://www.samui3d.com/gfx/christfggiimportons1small5hrs.jpg
2. This image was rendered with Ctrl_Ghost Settings, FG/GI & Importons enabled, Density 1, Emitted 100000, Merge 0.1, Size 256, depht 4 and IP disabled.
Please note the much better light distribution compared to the old FG/GI algorithm.
Render time: about 5 hrs.
http://www.samui3d.com/gfx/christipimportons100000small6hrs.jpg
3. This image was rendered with Ctrl_Ghost Settings, IP & Importons enabled, and here comes the very smart solution pointed out by Dagon, based on the old FG map freezing technique.
First you have to launch a render through the batch render, which I prefer, or through the main render window, with the Importons settings as follows:
Density 1, Emitted 100000, Merge 0.1, Size 64, depht 4.
IP settings: rays 64, passes 4, interpolation never, interpolation points 64,scale 1,enviroment enabled, enviroment rays 64, enviroment scale 1, rebuild enabled and provide an absolute path on your hard disk, that points to a file with an .ip extension.
Name the file as you like.
After the Importon & IP calculation phase, MR will save the .ip file on your hard disk, and will start the main rendering phase.
Now you have to interrupt the rendering, and go back to the Ctrl_Ghost Settings window and replace the Importons settings as follow:
Density 1, Emitted 100000, Merge 0.1, Size 256, depht 4.
IP settings: rays 256, passes 4, interpolation always, interpolation points 256,scale 1,enviroment enabled, enviroment rays 256, enviroment scale 1, rebuild disabled, and provide the absolute path on your hard disk, that points to the .ip extension file previously created.
Now you start a new render through the batch render, which I prefer, or through the main render window, wait a few hours (5/6 hrs. in this case) and VOILA'.
http://www.samui3d.com/gfx/christipimportons0.2small6hrs.jpg
4. This image was rendered with the same technique as image n.3, just with the Importons Density 0.2, Emitted 0, Merge 0.1, Size 256, depht 4.
I feel that this image, compared to image n.3, is a little bit darker. It seems that Ambient Occlusion is much more present.
Render time: about 6 hrs.
http://www.samui3d.com/gfx/christipimportons0.2brightsmall6hrs.jpg
5. This image was rendered with the same technique as image n.3 and 4, I've just increased to 4 the Color Gain of the Fire image, dropped into the additional parameter of the Fireplace Mia X Material.
Please note the bright red spots on the walls and ceiling of the room.
Render time: about 6 hrs.
I guess you could get rid of this red spots, by increasing the Density to 1 in the Importons settings.
Or just playing around with the Indirect Illumination Options of the Mia X Material, or the Mia_Light_Surface.
Considering the huge size of this maya scene (193 MB.), I could not manage to increase the
Density to more than 0.2 in the Importons settings, because Maya was just crashing down...!
Since I'm a little bit tired at the moment, I will appreciate any help or suggestion on how to get rid of the red spots, maybe Max and Dagon could help us out one more time...?
http://www.samui3d.com/gfx/jefffggioldsmall5hrs.jpg
6. This image was rendered with the same technique as image n.1, with the old FG/GI algorithm.
Maya 2008sp1 with MR Physical Sky/Sun & Mia X Materials only.
Please note that the wooden planks material seems to be more bright than the next images, just because for this one, I used very high raytracing values.
Render time: about 5 hrs.
http://www.samui3d.com/gfx/jefffggiimportonssmall5hrs.jpg
7. This image was rendered with the same technique as image n.2
Render time: about 5 hrs.
http://www.samui3d.com/gfx/jeffipimportons50000small4.5hrs.jpg
8. This image was rendered with the same technique as image n.3, with only 50000 Emitted Importons.
Render time: about 5 hrs.
http://www.samui3d.com/gfx/jeffipimportons0.2small5hrs.jpg
9. This image was rendered with the same technique as image n.4
Render time: about 6 hrs.
http://www.samui3d.com/gfx/jefffggiimportonsfur3.jpg
10. Just a simple test with Fur.

Enjoy with this new features...!

Ciao...!

Alex Sandri
http://www.samui3d.com (http://www.samui3d.com/)

PS. I hope I was enough clear, and please excuse my english, because like Max and Dagon I'm Italian, too...!

dagon1978
07-31-2008, 06:08 PM
great work withego ;)

Before to proceed with the technical details, I really hope we will get some feedback this time, from the guys at "Autodesk" and "Mental Ray" former "Mental Images" now owned by "Invidia".
I would like also to stress out, that I find pretty insane that Maya & Mental Ray artists
like myself, must invest several years and put a lot of efforts,
debugging the Maya & MR software, testing and trying to get basic
and new unimplemented features to work as expected...!
Quote Dagon from the "Importons and Irradiance Particles thread":

"I think we should ask for a contact (a forum with bug reporst, wishlist, etc?) with the mray developers, or at least with the OEM integrators (anyone has ever known who's for maya?)"

"I dont know, is not a personal problem, i think we should start to make a petition (or something like this) to ask better support on the autodesk side."


maybe there is already something on the way... ;)



PS. I hope I was enough clear, and please excuse my english, because like Max and Dagon I'm Italian, too...!
we do it better :D opsss :scream:

spiralof5
04-24-2009, 08:57 AM
I am subscribing to this thread. Wonderful observations. I can see a dramatic increase in richness of colors and lighting. I have not delved into importons or irradiance particles yet and now I want to!

I will be working with a minutely less intense scene but it is indoor and needs to be as realistic as possible.

BTW, what computer are you rendering on? Those render times are horrible :P. Just curious. I don't want a 5 hour per frame render time.

Thanks again. If I have any questions, may I pm you? Also, this states its for maya 2008 sp1. Do I have to do the same things described in the early parts of your tutorial for maya 2009?

Just to be clear, I can't use any maya standard lights? What about inside lights? I surely can't use portals for that. Do I need to put in something like the Physical Light shaders into the custom shader of my lights?

withego
04-26-2009, 06:23 AM
Dear Spiralo, sorry for the delay.

I use a simple Intel Quad with 4 Giga of Ram, and since I usually don't do animations, but Archviz stills, I'm more concern about quality vs. speed.
5 hrs. for a high rez Maya & MR archviz render is not that crazy....!

As I stated in the first part of my tutorial at Gnomonology:

PLEASE NOTE:
FOR BACKWARD COMPATIBILITY WITH PREVIOUS MAYA VERSIONS
SUCH AS MAYA 2008 SP1/EXT2, A POLY SPHERE “DUMMY” OBJECT IS PROVIDED
THE ONLY PURPOSE OF THIS “DUMMY” OBJECT IS TO EXPOSE THE “CTRL GHOST SETTINGS”
BY ATTACHING THE “CTRL GHOST SETTINGS” TO THE “ENABLE GEOMETRY SHADER’ SLOT UNDER THE MENTAL RAY TAB OF THE “DUMMY” OBJECT,
WE WILL ENABLE THE “IMPORTONS IRRADIANCE PARTICLES” ATTRIBUTES

YOU MUST USE THE “DUMMY” WITH THE SCENE PROVIDED, IN MAYA 2008 SP1 FORMAT
THE LINK TO DOWNLOAD “AUTODESK MAYA 2008 SP1”, IS PROVIDED IN THE “READ ME” FILE
WITH THE MAYA 2008 SP1 SCENE, YOU DON’T NEED TO SETUP “STRING OPTIONS”
IN THE “MI DEFAULT OPTION” WINDOW, SINCE THAT ALL THE STRINGS INCLUDING
THE “EMITTED” STRING ARE ALREADY PRESENT IN THE “CTRL GHOST SETTINGS”

PLEASE NOTE:
WITH MAYA 2009, TO EXPOSE THIS FEATURES THE “DUMMY” IS NOT NEEDED
SINCE THE “IMPORTONS IRRADIANCE PARTICLES” ATTRIBUTES ARE ALREADY IMPLEMENTED UNDER THE INDIRECT LIGHTING TAB OF THE RENDER SETTINGS WINDOW


PLEASE NOTE:
IF YOU UNHIDE THE “DUMMY” OBJECT, THE “DUMMY’S” “CTRL GHOST SETTINGS”,
WILL OVERRIDE THE “IMPORTONS IRRADIANCE PARTICLES” ATTRIBUTES IN THE MAIN RENDER WINDOW

As I stated in the second part of my tutorial at Gnomonology:

THERE ARE 2 DIFFERENT WORKFLOWS FOR THE IMPORTONS EMISSION:

IMPORTONS DENSITY:
RELATED TO THE IMAGE RESOLUTION
THE NUMBER OF IMPORTONS SHOT FROM THE CAMERA PER PIXEL

IMPORTONS EMITTED:
UNRELATED TO THE IMAGE RESOLUTION
DEFINES THE AMOUNT OF IMPORTONS EMITTED

PLEASE NOTE:
LOWER VALUES SPEED UP IMPORTONS EMISSION BUT DESCREASE IMAGE QUALITY
“IMPORTONS EMITTED” USUALLY FASTER THAN THE “IMPORTONS DENSITY” WORKFLOW

PLEASE NOTE:
IN THE MAYA 2009 RENDER SETTINGS WINDOW, YOU CANNOT SET THE IMPORTONS
EMISSION OPTION LIKE WITH THE “DUMMY” “CTRL GHOST SETTINGS” IN MAYA 2008 SP1/EXT2

IN THIS EXAMPLE WE WILL USE THE “IMPORTONS EMITTED” WORKFLOW
SO WE WILL ENABLE THE “EMITTED” PARAMETER VIA THE STRING OPTION
IN THE “MI_DEFAULT_OPTONS” ATTRIBUTES WINDOW

OPEN THE OUTLINER AND UNDER DISPLAY, UNCHECK THE “DAG OBJECTS ONLY”
SCROLL DOWN UNTIL YOU FIND THE “MI_DEFAULT_OPTONS” NODE AND DOUBLE CLICK IT
IN THE “MI_DEFAULT_OPTONS” ATTRIBUTES WINDOW,
SCROLL DOWN TO THE “STRING OPTIONS” TAB
SCROLL DOWN TO THE END OF THE OF THE “STRING OPTIONS” SLOTS AND YOU WILL FIND THE LAST “STRING OPTIONS (28)”, ALREADY FILLED WITH 3 INPUT VALUES AS FOLLOWS:
NAME= importon emitted
VALUE= 100000
TYPE= integer

PLEASE NOTE:
IF YOU PREFER TO USE THE “IMPORTONS DENSITY” WORKFLOW,
JUST DELETE THE “STRING OPTIONS (28)” AND INPUT A VALUE OF “0.1”
IN THE “IMPORTONS DENSITY” PARAMETER OF THE RENDER SETTINGS WINDOW

PLEASE NOTE:
INSTEAD OF “0.1” YOU CAN USE HIGHER VALUES FOR THE “IMPORTONS DENSITY”
IT REALLY DEPENDS ON THE POWER OF YOUR SYSTEM AND THE AMOUT OF RAMS
AVAILABLE

This are the settings that you have to optimize to reduce render times.

Since Importons & Irradiance Particles Algorithm is an alternative to the standard FG/GI workflow,
you can use all the Maya & MR standard lights, materials and features supported by MR,
just like you use them usually with the standard MR FG/GI workflow.

I have enclosed a few links that might be useful, mostly the last one where one user "daniohayon" posted a nice animation created with this rendering techniques.

Hope it helps....!

Ciao...!

Alex

PS.
I'm preparing a new Maya & MR Archviz tutorial based on the famous "Sponza" model, that will explore the Importons and Irradiance particles workflow
discussed in the second and third part of my previous tutorial, used together with Maya & MR Proxy Assemblies and BSP2.
It will explore also the new Maya 2009 Render Passes features.



http://gnomonology.com/inst/16908
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=621727
http://forum.lamrug.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1608
http://imakeu.com/Work/AnimTest.html
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=5336277#post5336277

cgbeige
04-26-2009, 04:36 PM
so the good news is that Mental Ray folks have more to worry about to get realistic renderings? :surprised

I was hoping you were going to say something like "Mental Ray will no longer make you jump through hoops and play musical glasses with third party utilities to set up a good render" but I guess that was optimistic thinking.

Great work but you have more patience than I do. I don't miss Mental Ray.

dagon1978
04-26-2009, 06:21 PM
Great work but you have more patience than I do. I don't miss Mental Ray.
so do mental ray and mental ray people :) bye bye

Undseth
04-26-2009, 06:38 PM
Would be fun to see a nice rendering of the living room above, but with no texturing on the walls and a ligher color, in order to show clearly if the rendered image has any distinctive splotches or not.

I mean, if anyone were to render some white colored architecture building ala time of modernism, I am thinking that any splotches would show if there are no textures to perhaps hide them.

cgbeige
04-26-2009, 07:40 PM
so do mental ray and mental ray people :) bye bye

fitting that you'd ignore my criticism and just toss out a dis. you need to learn to argue and not just hurl insults.

not that you'd admit that MR is a convoluted mess of unfinished fixes and workarounds since you write books about it.

dagon1978
04-26-2009, 10:04 PM
fitting that you'd ignore my criticism and just toss out a dis. you need to learn to argue and not just hurl insults.

not that you'd admit that MR is a convoluted mess of unfinished fixes and workarounds since you write books about it.

can you point me out of just one of you constructive messages over mental ray?
can you please tell us which is the purpose of your message here or in all of the mental ray threads since you don't know anything about it?

if you are frustrated because you are unable to do anything with it, maybe you can purchase my book, visto che capisci l'italiano :) i can give you a discount :wavey:

ytsejam1976
04-26-2009, 10:09 PM
can you point me out of just one of you constructive messages over mental ray?
can you please tell us which is the purpose of your message here or in all of the mental ray threads since you don't know anything about it?

if you are frustrated because you are unable to do anything with it, maybe you can purchase my book, visto che capisci l'italiano :) i can give you a discount :wavey:


Muoio :argh::beer:

ftaswin
04-26-2009, 11:46 PM
can you point me out of just one of you constructive messages over mental ray?
can you please tell us which is the purpose of your message here or in all of the mental ray threads since you don't know anything about it?

if you are frustrated because you are unable to do anything with it, maybe you can purchase my book, visto che capisci l'italiano :) i can give you a discount :wavey:


I like it too :argh::beer:

Aikiman
04-27-2009, 12:23 AM
Nice renders mate! As soon as I find time Im gunna get back into rendering and come back to this thread. /thumbsup

cheebamonkey
04-27-2009, 01:39 AM
fitting that you'd ignore my criticism and just toss out a dis. you need to learn to argue and not just hurl insults.

not that you'd admit that MR is a convoluted mess of unfinished fixes and workarounds since you write books about it.

jesus dude.. quit trolling the forums or you'll be reported. Betwen you and sara, you should start your own trolling thread where you can berate each other and each other's software till you're blue in the face. Knock it off. We get it. You don't like Mental Ray. That's done.

cgbeige
04-27-2009, 04:05 AM
it wasn't a troll. "good news" meaning "get more third party software to fix mental ray" seemed like bad news. I was genuinely interested in making Mental Ray easier to deal with - not harder.

A troll is what you do whenever I mention using a Mac. There's a difference - I understand Mental Ray to the extent that I know it's a pain to use for the type of scene shown above. You've got someone of technical director skill getting quality that I'd deem unusable in my renders. I'm not trying to offend the OP, but the image looks like plastic.

Let me rephrase my statement: is Mental Ray really that broken that you need more utilities to make it usable still? Would you tell a new Mental Ray user that they need more hacks to get good renders?

Aikiman
04-27-2009, 04:15 AM
it wasn't a troll. "good news" meaning "get more third party software to fix mental ray" seemed like bad news. I was genuinely interested in making Mental Ray easier to deal with - not harder.

A troll is what you do whenever I mention using a Mac. There's a difference - I understand Mental Ray to the extent that I know it's a pain to use for the type of scene shown above. You've got someone of technical director skill getting quality that I'd deem unusable in my renders.

Let me rephrase my statement: is Mental Ray really that broken that you need more utilities to make it usable still?

Its called "diluting the forums with unnecessary fluff". Some of your comments dont add anything to the discussion, they are just flippant comments not intending to be constructive in any way.

yassein
04-27-2009, 09:15 AM
hi all and thanks for this useful thread
i like the irradiance particles system
but i have 2 Questions
First
the time for good render is very long if i do the same renedr with the old way
im traing to play with density but i Found the value 1 give me good result with long time
and Less than that give me unacceptable quality
is thare eny way to play around this ?
......................
secondly
How to deal with render animation
thanks

Libor
04-27-2009, 02:00 PM
First I must say I use mray for everyday use exclusively (job) not any other renderer. But I have to be patient a lot :D

Dagon: I think you were over reacting to someone else comment... a bit childish way

But hey when reading this clumsy workflow when rendering using Importons etc, something is wrong guys...

...aborting renders, linking different files to render new image. Things should be easier so I think its ok when someone else point this out (better than keep mouth shut).


I dont want to blame anyone Im just a bit...well dissapointed


Cheers!

P.S. Great work indeed guys to push mray into new level of rendering quality! I saw incredible renders from you using mray recently. Keep it up!

fahr
04-27-2009, 02:46 PM
Libor,

Dagon1978 and CGBeige do this a lot. :) This isn't the first time. This thread dereailed almost instantly, so I hope it can get back on track, bacause while I tend to agree with CGBeige's assessment of MR at times, that's not what this thread is about. There's some genuinely good info in here.

...and Dagon1978, does your book have an english version? Can I get a discount too? :)

withego
04-28-2009, 06:22 AM
hi all and thanks for this useful thread
i like the irradiance particles system
but i have 2 Questions
First
the time for good render is very long if i do the same renedr with the old way
im traing to play with density but i Found the value 1 give me good result with long time
and Less than that give me unacceptable quality
is thare eny way to play around this ?
......................
secondly
How to deal with render animation
thanks

I was surprised to see that my reply to Spiralo on this "1 year old thread" could trigger such a "VESPAIO"...!

Anyway I agree that the last releases of MR are "quite buggy".
The guys at MR after releasing the Maya 2009 Sp1, they had to come out to release a new one after short time to fix some other bugs.
But until there are guys like Dagon, Rachid "Archoury" & CO, including myself spending tons of time to debug MR , where is your problem????;)

A SMALL SUGGESTION TO THE GUYS AT MR:
INSTEAD TO TRY IMPLEMENT NEW FEATURES WITH ANY NEW RELEASE, WHY JUST NOT TRYING TO MAKE WORKS THE FEATURES ALREADY IMPLEMENTED ???

Dear Yassein & LIBOR...!
I have to quote myself again....!

IF YOU USE THE TECHNIQUE I'VE EXPLAINED IN THE THIRD PART OF THE TUTORIAL :
NAMED “INTERPOLATED IMPORTONS AND IRRADIANCE PARTICLES WORKFLOW”

YOU WILL RENDER OUT IN ONE PASS WITHOUT THE NEED TO INTERRUPT THE RENDERING AND TO PROVIDE A PAHT TO THE IP FILE.

PLUS IF IN MAYA 2009...

YOU OPEN THE OUTLINER AND UNDER DISPLAY, UNCHECK THE “DAG OBJECTS ONLY”
SCROLL DOWN UNTIL YOU FIND THE “MI_DEFAULT_OPTONS” NODE AND DOUBLE CLICK IT
IN THE “MI_DEFAULT_OPTONS” ATTRIBUTES WINDOW,
SCROLL DOWN TO THE “STRING OPTIONS” TAB,
IN THE “STRING OPTIONS” TAB, CREATE A NEW ITEM "ADD NEW ITEM" AND INPUT THE 3 VALUES AS FOLLOWS:

NAME= importon emitted
VALUE= 100000 (OR LOWER SUCH AS 30000)
TYPE= integer

YOU WILL BYPASS THE "IMPORTONS DENSITY" VALUE UNDER THE INDIRECT LIGHTING TAB IN MAYA 2009

THIS IS A GOOD COMPROMISE BETWEEN QUALITY AND SPEED, AND RENDER TIMES ARE SIMILAR TO THE STANDARD MR FG/GI WORKFLOWS.


WITH THIS WORKFLOW, YOU WILL DEAL WITH ANIMATIONS LIKE YOU USUALLY DO WITH THE STANDARD MR FG/GI WORKFLOWS.

Ciao, and keep it constructive....!

Alex

dagon1978
04-28-2009, 07:06 AM
The guys at MR after releasing the Maya 2009 Sp1, they had to come out to release a new one after short time to fix some other bugs.

Alex

Ciao Alex! ;)
Actually the problems of sp1 are coming from the adsk guys (or alias guys?), as the mr4maya now is not developed by mental images anymore

fabergambis
04-28-2009, 11:35 AM
Ciao Alex! ;)
Actually the problems of sp1 are coming from the adsk guys (or alias guys?), as the mr4maya now is not developed by mental images anymore

Is it a good or a bad new? :curious: Do you think it will improve mr4maya integration?

dagon1978
04-28-2009, 12:26 PM
Is it a good or a bad new? :curious: Do you think it will improve mr4maya integration?
judging by the sp1 it doesn't seems a good news, BTW maya 2009 was a step forward, so, probably we need to see in the next releases

yassein
04-28-2009, 12:36 PM
sorry :) i missed the most important part
NAME= importon emitted
VALUE= 100000 (OR LOWER SUCH AS 30000)
TYPE= integer
yes now thare is balance between time and quality
thanks
..........................

Hamburger
04-28-2009, 12:45 PM
judging by the sp1 it doesn't seems a good news, BTW maya 2009 was a step forward, so, probably we need to see in the next releases

Ah, I always have hyper-inflated sense of hope of my job becoming easier when somesone says that!

Almost there...all this tech is good to play around with but I get bitten when I use these techniques in production. I don't like that! But threads like this are really good so thank you for these results and tests.

lazzhar
04-28-2009, 12:51 PM
Ciao Alex! ;)
Actually the problems of sp1 are coming from the adsk guys (or alias guys?), as the mr4maya now is not developed by mental images anymore

Do you mean the renderer or the exporter ?
If the latter it looks like now they have those softimage people at that knows about MR at autodesk and are trying to take over this and fill the gap everybody using mr4maya is suffering from.

cheebamonkey
04-28-2009, 03:31 PM
I believe it's the integration between Maya and MR (mr4maya). MI should still be doing the renderer but it's up to Autodesk to get it to work with maya, max and now xsi. We'll never hear if there are talks between the softimage and maya people about getting stuff to work in Maya. That's all internal stuff we'll never be privvy to.

dagon1978
04-28-2009, 06:20 PM
Do you mean the renderer or the exporter ?
If the latter it looks like now they have those softimage people at that knows about MR at autodesk and are trying to take over this and fill the gap everybody using mr4maya is suffering from.
yes, i meant the translator and the integration, they've the softimage guys right now, but i think there will need a little bit of time to take advantage of this expertises

InfernalDarkness
04-29-2009, 06:02 PM
...that somebody is working on the plugin! I was under the (pessimistic) impression that mental images worked as hard as I do, which means drinking coffee for 90% of my workday instead of actually doing anything.

Really looking forward to seeing what, if anything, can be done to streamline the mental ray workflow in Maya. I haven't used Softimage or Max, but everything I've seen from both regarding mental ray leads me to believe there is indeed hope and also love in this world. Thanks for the heads-up, Dagon. I wasn't aware anyone at AutoEmpire was still working on Maya's integration!

spiralof5
04-29-2009, 07:02 PM
Dear Spiralo, sorry for the delay.

I use a simple Intel Quad with 4 Giga of Ram, and since I usually don't do animations, but Archviz stills, I'm more concern about quality vs. speed.
5 hrs. for a high rez Maya & MR archviz render is not that crazy....!

As I stated in the first part of my tutorial at Gnomonology:

PLEASE NOTE:
FOR BACKWARD COMPATIBILITY WITH PREVIOUS MAYA VERSIONS
SUCH AS MAYA 2008 SP1/EXT2, A POLY SPHERE “DUMMY” OBJECT IS PROVIDED
THE ONLY PURPOSE OF THIS “DUMMY” OBJECT IS TO EXPOSE THE “CTRL GHOST SETTINGS”
BY ATTACHING THE “CTRL GHOST SETTINGS” TO THE “ENABLE GEOMETRY SHADER’ SLOT UNDER THE MENTAL RAY TAB OF THE “DUMMY” OBJECT,
WE WILL ENABLE THE “IMPORTONS IRRADIANCE PARTICLES” ATTRIBUTES

YOU MUST USE THE “DUMMY” WITH THE SCENE PROVIDED, IN MAYA 2008 SP1 FORMAT
THE LINK TO DOWNLOAD “AUTODESK MAYA 2008 SP1”, IS PROVIDED IN THE “READ ME” FILE
WITH THE MAYA 2008 SP1 SCENE, YOU DON’T NEED TO SETUP “STRING OPTIONS”
IN THE “MI DEFAULT OPTION” WINDOW, SINCE THAT ALL THE STRINGS INCLUDING
THE “EMITTED” STRING ARE ALREADY PRESENT IN THE “CTRL GHOST SETTINGS”

PLEASE NOTE:
WITH MAYA 2009, TO EXPOSE THIS FEATURES THE “DUMMY” IS NOT NEEDED
SINCE THE “IMPORTONS IRRADIANCE PARTICLES” ATTRIBUTES ARE ALREADY IMPLEMENTED UNDER THE INDIRECT LIGHTING TAB OF THE RENDER SETTINGS WINDOW


PLEASE NOTE:
IF YOU UNHIDE THE “DUMMY” OBJECT, THE “DUMMY’S” “CTRL GHOST SETTINGS”,
WILL OVERRIDE THE “IMPORTONS IRRADIANCE PARTICLES” ATTRIBUTES IN THE MAIN RENDER WINDOW

As I stated in the second part of my tutorial at Gnomonology:

THERE ARE 2 DIFFERENT WORKFLOWS FOR THE IMPORTONS EMISSION:

IMPORTONS DENSITY:
RELATED TO THE IMAGE RESOLUTION
THE NUMBER OF IMPORTONS SHOT FROM THE CAMERA PER PIXEL

IMPORTONS EMITTED:
UNRELATED TO THE IMAGE RESOLUTION
DEFINES THE AMOUNT OF IMPORTONS EMITTED

PLEASE NOTE:
LOWER VALUES SPEED UP IMPORTONS EMISSION BUT DESCREASE IMAGE QUALITY
“IMPORTONS EMITTED” USUALLY FASTER THAN THE “IMPORTONS DENSITY” WORKFLOW

PLEASE NOTE:
IN THE MAYA 2009 RENDER SETTINGS WINDOW, YOU CANNOT SET THE IMPORTONS
EMISSION OPTION LIKE WITH THE “DUMMY” “CTRL GHOST SETTINGS” IN MAYA 2008 SP1/EXT2

IN THIS EXAMPLE WE WILL USE THE “IMPORTONS EMITTED” WORKFLOW
SO WE WILL ENABLE THE “EMITTED” PARAMETER VIA THE STRING OPTION
IN THE “MI_DEFAULT_OPTONS” ATTRIBUTES WINDOW

OPEN THE OUTLINER AND UNDER DISPLAY, UNCHECK THE “DAG OBJECTS ONLY”
SCROLL DOWN UNTIL YOU FIND THE “MI_DEFAULT_OPTONS” NODE AND DOUBLE CLICK IT
IN THE “MI_DEFAULT_OPTONS” ATTRIBUTES WINDOW,
SCROLL DOWN TO THE “STRING OPTIONS” TAB
SCROLL DOWN TO THE END OF THE OF THE “STRING OPTIONS” SLOTS AND YOU WILL FIND THE LAST “STRING OPTIONS (28)”, ALREADY FILLED WITH 3 INPUT VALUES AS FOLLOWS:
NAME= importon emitted
VALUE= 100000
TYPE= integer

PLEASE NOTE:
IF YOU PREFER TO USE THE “IMPORTONS DENSITY” WORKFLOW,
JUST DELETE THE “STRING OPTIONS (28)” AND INPUT A VALUE OF “0.1”
IN THE “IMPORTONS DENSITY” PARAMETER OF THE RENDER SETTINGS WINDOW

PLEASE NOTE:
INSTEAD OF “0.1” YOU CAN USE HIGHER VALUES FOR THE “IMPORTONS DENSITY”
IT REALLY DEPENDS ON THE POWER OF YOUR SYSTEM AND THE AMOUT OF RAMS
AVAILABLE

This are the settings that you have to optimize to reduce render times.

Since Importons & Irradiance Particles Algorithm is an alternative to the standard FG/GI workflow,
you can use all the Maya & MR standard lights, materials and features supported by MR,
just like you use them usually with the standard MR FG/GI workflow.

I have enclosed a few links that might be useful, mostly the last one where one user "daniohayon" posted a nice animation created with this rendering techniques.

Hope it helps....!

Ciao...!

Alex

PS.
I'm preparing a new Maya & MR Archviz tutorial based on the famous "Sponza" model, that will explore the Importons and Irradiance particles workflow
discussed in the second and third part of my previous tutorial, used together with Maya & MR Proxy Assemblies and BSP2.
It will explore also the new Maya 2009 Render Passes features.



http://gnomonology.com/inst/16908
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=621727
http://forum.lamrug.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1608
http://imakeu.com/Work/AnimTest.html
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=5336277#post5336277

Thanks Alexi. I appreciate this very much.

I just have a few more questions, being new to this. If irradiance particles and importons are the alternative, are they to be used in conjunction with FG/GI? I noticed that in the last thread you listed for me a lot of people are using IP in conjunction with FG.

Sounds stupid but I don't know what the term IRR stands for. In the last thread someone had rendered a scene using IP + IRR. What does the IRR stand for?

arg, I read the whole post and then forgot that you were using ctrl_ghost. Well, at least I can maybe have enough info that you gave me to work without the CTRL_Ghost.

Well, looks like the mac user is screwed again. Anyone know how to compile for OS X? I don't even see a Vista compilation.

Again, thank you and I'm glad I helped revitalized a year old post that shouldn't have been pushed under the rug! I guess you were just 1 year ahead of your time and everyone is catching up now that these techniques are featured in maya 2009.

A stable version of anything would be nice when it comes to Maya and 3ds max. I just wish that Mental Ray had a mix_layers so that all users could enjoy it with outsourced renderfarms.

cheebamonkey
04-30-2009, 01:31 PM
Well, looks like the mac user is screwed again. Anyone know how to compile for OS X? I don't even see a Vista compilation.
.

Just an fyi, there's no such thing as a Vista compilation. It's either 32 or 64bit on the PC. Both of those can be found on mymentalray.com under the shaders tab.

spiralof5
04-30-2009, 01:44 PM
o.k.

I will check that out. Just the thought of booting into Vista makes me shudder.

cheebamonkey
04-30-2009, 04:41 PM
o.k.

I will check that out. Just the thought of booting into Vista makes me shudder.

it's actually a faster and better experience than the MacOS. Yes, I use both on my Macbook Pro and prefer Vista.

Ignorance about Vista is just that, ignorance.

Saturn
04-30-2009, 05:32 PM
I double that.
I was highly suprised to see how vista is performing better than macOS on my macbook pro

cheebamonkey
04-30-2009, 05:45 PM
hahah either Apple made their laptop Vista-friendly (highly doubt that considering how horribly Quicktime and Itunes works in Windows vs OSX) or Vista finally matured with the right drivers backing it. Either way, it's a good alternative.

Try out the ctrl-studio stuff regardless. They have helped out the MR community despite any quabbles Francesca had with the CGtalk staff here a long while ago. Most of their stuff should be on mymentalray.com ROCK ON FRANNIE!!!:)

spiralof5
04-30-2009, 07:57 PM
it's actually a faster and better experience than the MacOS. Yes, I use both on my Macbook Pro and prefer Vista.

Ignorance about Vista is just that, ignorance.

It's not ignorant. I have a couple Valid points. I have Vista and have used it plenty. It's not so much the performance, it's that Windows has a crapper load of processes that need my administration access o.k.'d. Now this would seem like a good thing rather than a flaw but I have encountered several tasks that won't let me do what I want even WITH administrative rights that I set up for myself. I once had to do some crazy Command Prompt stuff just to get a video game to run properly.

Also, Windows has to consume an EXTRA gig of ram just to run properly in dual boot. I generally want to keep all the ram I can when working with 3D applications, especially with particles and fluids, since your scene is stored in ram upon the loading of your file.

The main point, though, is that I don't want to deal with viruses. Sounds stupid, but when you life and lively hood are dependent on a small box inside your computer, you'd generally want to protect that as much as possible. I know people that get viruses with Norton installed and properly updated. Not good.

Maybe faster but not a better experience. OS X as an operating system is much less frustrating than Windows and I'd rival your comment with benchmark tests because of the ram issue. I also do a lot of other work on the OS X only side and I need to reserve as much hard drive space as possible. But I never know how much I'll actually need yet Windows has to have a dedicated amount, especially if I'm rendering.

Don't tell someone they are ignorant because of a preference. I respect your opinion but disagree. Good day to you sir :)

withego
05-01-2009, 05:22 AM
Thanks Alexi. I appreciate this very much.

I just have a few more questions, being new to this. If irradiance particles and importons are the alternative, are they to be used in conjunction with FG/GI? I noticed that in the last thread you listed for me a lot of people are using IP in conjunction with FG.

Sounds stupid but I don't know what the term IRR stands for. In the last thread someone had rendered a scene using IP + IRR. What does the IRR stand for?

arg, I read the whole post and then forgot that you were using ctrl_ghost. Well, at least I can maybe have enough info that you gave me to work without the CTRL_Ghost.

Well, looks like the mac user is screwed again. Anyone know how to compile for OS X? I don't even see a Vista compilation.

Again, thank you and I'm glad I helped revitalized a year old post that shouldn't have been pushed under the rug! I guess you were just 1 year ahead of your time and everyone is catching up now that these techniques are featured in maya 2009.

A stable version of anything would be nice when it comes to Maya and 3ds max. I just wish that Mental Ray had a mix_layers so that all users could enjoy it with outsourced renderfarms.


Dear Spiralo,
In the the thread links I have provided you, there are all the INFO you are looking for...!

Anyway, IMPORTONS can be used with FG/GI, but IP (IRRADIANCE PARTICLES) will be automatically disabled.

Or you can use IMPORTONS with IP, but FG must be disabled.

I guess that user by "IRR" means IRRADIANCE PARTICLES, but IP+IRR doesn't make sense.
IMPORTONS+IP make sense....!
And again, to expose the IMPORTONS & IP settings with previous version of Maya, you was forced to use CTRL_GHOST SHADER , but with Maya 2009 DON"T NEED CTRL GHOST ANYMORE...!

Ciao

Alex

rBrady
05-01-2009, 06:36 PM
it wasn't a troll. "good news" meaning "get more third party software to fix mental ray" seemed like bad news. I was genuinely interested in making Mental Ray easier to deal with - not harder.


Good news can mean more than one thing.

Easier = Good News
More Sophistication = Good News

While not always true, Maya generally attracts users that are pushing the envelope. The upside is that Maya is very sophisticated, the down side is it can be hard to use. If you don't want to push the envelope there are tons of great 3D packages that are easier to use. I have used Lightwave, Max, and C4D. They are all easier to use and very good. I would recommend you try them.

I for one, will stick with Maya.

cheebamonkey
05-02-2009, 04:29 PM
yup... Maxwell works with those packages as well. :lightbulb

spiralof5
05-03-2009, 08:39 AM
yup... Maxwell works with those packages as well. :lightbulb

please don't stray from the topic folks. This is about irradiance particles and importons. If you want to talk about Mental Ray vs. Maxwell make your own thread or go to the Maxwell forums. If you are generally trolling then we won't miss you.

spiralof5
05-03-2009, 08:41 AM
Dear Spiralo,
In the the thread links I have provided you, there are all the INFO you are looking for...!

Anyway, IMPORTONS can be used with FG/GI, but IP (IRRADIANCE PARTICLES) will be automatically disabled.

Or you can use IMPORTONS with IP, but FG must be disabled.

I guess that user by "IRR" means IRRADIANCE PARTICLES, but IP+IRR doesn't make sense.
IMPORTONS+IP make sense....!
And again, to expose the IMPORTONS & IP settings with previous version of Maya, you was forced to use CTRL_GHOST SHADER , but with Maya 2009 DON"T NEED CTRL GHOST ANYMORE...!

Ciao

Alex

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooh

Yaaaay *does no foreign shader dance*

Thank you!

cheebamonkey
05-04-2009, 06:02 PM
please don't stray from the topic folks. This is about irradiance particles and importons. If you want to talk about Mental Ray vs. Maxwell make your own thread or go to the Maxwell forums. If you are generally trolling then we won't miss you.

The point was cgbeige wanted to clutter up the MR threads with Maxwell trolling. Someone else pointed out he should look at other packages and I commented on how Maxwell works with those other packages.

You already found the answer you were looking for, so by responding afterwards with this is pretty moot, no? So yes, we'll keep it on topic (this would probably exclude responses about dancing and things of that nature).

techmage
05-13-2009, 03:41 AM
Thanks for all the information. I'm glad to see that after so many years this section of the forum still has so much activity from all the old proffesionals.

But about this importon and IP thing. One problem of mine was never resolved in the last thread, which still makes me very hesitant to invest any more time in it until it's further developed (was gonna wait till 2010 to come back to importons)

first, go to this page http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=87&t=621727&page=22&pp=15
then read my posts starting about half way down.
Then read ctrl.studios post at the very bottom.

The issue was basically that, it does not accurately bounce light around corners. In interior scenes this was negligible, as it didn't have to take into account light from every angle to produce adequate results, but I'm sure it still has issues.

I'm still suspecting that any sort of improvment into contrast or 'vibrance' of an image with importons/IP is really due to the fact it's not taking into account every light bounce and is artifically darkening areas. I mean, final gathering has the ability to be every bit as accurate and detailed as IP/importons, that is if you turn up the settings and wait a bit more time. So it's not like there is some inherit more 'vibrant' component to the ip/importon algorithm, changes in color and contrast is due to it bouncing the light differently. And as I understand, final gathering with very high settings is the current benchmark for accuracy in mental ray, so if importons are coming out different or darker in more areas, more contrasted, it's not because of more accuracy or improvement over final gathering, it's because of error, it's missing bounces.

Or am I completely wrong there?

Admittedly, I have not done new tests since the lasts tests in that old thread. But I've seen no mention of any changes to the algorithm in the recent service packs, so I've not taken the time to retry it. So I am just curious, has anyone run into anything about this issue? Or looked into it a little more?

cgbeige
05-13-2009, 02:54 PM
I just transferred my entire system and applications in one step flawlessly to a RAID array with all applications working with custom libraries intact (and no third party software or boot disks), I'm previewing 32-bit HDR and RAW files in the OS X Finder (Vista can't even preview .CR2 files (http://origin.arstechnica.com/reviews/apps/parallels-4-review.media/7-smartmount.jpg)), running a Unix command line and have never seen this Mac Pro crash. I'm using keywords and Spotlight to work faster with textures:

http://www.3eige.com/ars/spotlight.jpg
I could do the same with fonts and get a full preview of the typeface right there.

So I'm wondering how it is you claim that Vista is a better experience. Vista is a better experience for people who have no idea how to use the Mac (Exposé, menu bar proxies, drag and drop into open/save dialogs, etc). There may be more 3D apps for Windows but that's about it. I think you better tell the editor of CGSociety Paul Hellard why he's wrong when he said this to me in an email (when I pitched him an article about free 3D workflow tweaks for the Mac):

Gee, you're talking to the right man here. I'm an OS X user to the
point of wondering why anyone would waste time on any other platform.


But I'll take the word of a guy who trolls all Mac-related threads over his any day. Or maybe I should take the word of Microsoft, who has so much confidence in the abilities of Vista that they are scratching all references to it and giving away Windows 7 for free.

edit: it doesn't bother you that the Mac side of your MacBook Pro's 3D hardware is supported by Autodesk but the Vista side isn't? So what part of this experience is better again?

rBrady
05-13-2009, 04:36 PM
Relax, we all know MacOS is good.

Its just that some of us spend very little time using the OS for anything other than hosting our primary application. I for one, spend a very small portion of my day doing anything other than clicking in Maya. With a couple easy tweaks Vista has excellent network performance, disk performance, graphics performance, and 64bit support. Thats 98% of what I care about.

I come from the IRIX and Linux world originally and I hate Microsoft. That doesn't change the fact that Vista runs Maya very well.

chuckie7413
05-13-2009, 04:45 PM
sorry guys but rygoody posted a really good question regarding the initial thread topic of Importons and irradiance particles, something i would also like to know the answer too, and cgbeige you have just replied with non related crap. Go write it somewhere else. (cool set up tho. Thought i would lighten the mood lol) If you wanna reply to this then PM me. Don't fill this thread with non related comments.

@Dagon @withego Is there any news on whether mental images are improving the importon/ IP workflow/algorithms?

Cheers

Rich

InfernalDarkness
05-13-2009, 05:14 PM
http://photo.net/canon-eos-digital-camera-forum/00BAi4

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=47306

http://www.hardcoreware.net/view-cr2-files-in-64-bit-windows-vista-and-xp/

http://www.hardcoreware.net/canon-raw-cr2-thumbnail-support-in-vista/

http://www.difiapro.com/cr2_viewer.html


Canon is showing no sign of ever making 64-bit drivers.
They have already fixed this. Done.


I don't believe this is a MS issue. Much like Photoshop not being 64-bit on your computer, CGBeige... Please do your research before posting unfacts.

cgbeige
05-13-2009, 07:36 PM
lol - third party software is needed to see the files at all (I was talking about how you can preview RAW and HDR files right in the Finder without any additional software):

http://www.3eige.com/ars/hdrfinder.jpg

that also works in open dialogs so you can see what HDR file you are importing for an IBL probe.

Okay, so how about HDR files previewed in Explorer by default? anyway, I won't derail this thread anymore - I was just responding to a retarded blanket statement that needed to be refuted.

InfernalDarkness
05-13-2009, 08:03 PM
Hate to derail a thread, but evidently you missed the evidence, Mr. Beige.

http://www.hardcoreware.net/canon-raw-cr2-thumbnail-support-in-vista/

There it is. RAW in Vista. .dll files aren't "third party software", if drivers are considered "third party" then every driver in your computer is "third party", since Apple doesn't manufacture any of that software or hardware. Do you believe your hard drive was made by Apple with drivers written by Apple? Canon also made the RAW driver files for the Mac, in case you weren't aware.

Also, regarding HDR... Do you just have a rough time using Google? Came right up. Your Vista install didn't have an updated Direct X, evidently, CGBeige. Please update your computers before making claims about things not working & software elitism in general.

http://www.cgarchitect.com/vb/35034-there-way-view-hdrs-thumbnails-windows-explorer.html

Re: Is there a way to view HDR's as thumbnails in Windows Explorer? The new version of the Direct X SDK seems to include HDR support for Windows explorer. I'm downloading it at the moment and will report back once I've tested it.


Followed by:

Re: Is there a way to view HDR's as thumbnails in Windows Explorer? Okay, tried it and it works a treat. A little slower but considering it's processing 32-bit images on-the-fly what do you expect. If the slight speed decrease bothers you then go with the option suggested previously and save a jpeg version of each HDR in the same folder.

Seems pretty obvious your experience with Vista is very biased and perhaps it's just too complex. No more from me here, though. Re-railing thread.


If Importons/IP don't accurately bounce light, are they simply workarounds for using GI and/or FG? I've never been able to get either (Importons & IP, that is) to work properly, but in my quick-deadline workflow I have little time to experiment; high turnarounds demand medium-quality renders at best, and the only reason to switch to Importons/IP for me would be if they sped up my workflow itself, as render times are already decent with GI and sometimes GI+FG. Are these features just not very well implemented in MR for Maya yet? What about physical accuracy?

techmage
05-13-2009, 11:37 PM
My initial understanding was that irridance particles were to compete with Vray irridance particles. As in being, the one click ultimate solution to all GI, a replacement for FG, but better.

But given there current state of the function, I suspect there still being developed. Autodesk just put them in there for people who want to expiriment right now.



and is there anyway to turn on the image caching framebuffer in maya 2009 without ctrl_ghost?

cgbeige
05-14-2009, 04:48 AM
Apple doesn't manufacture any of that software or hardware.

Google "Aperture review." Mine is at the top - I know how RAW works in OS X and actually, yes, it is Apple that writes the RAW decoder for Canon files, much like any other 3rd party RAW decoder.

I'll stop derailing the thread when people stop writing misinformation that needs correcting.

techmage
05-14-2009, 06:25 AM
Google "Aperture review." Mine is at the top - I know how RAW works in OS X and actually, yes, it is Apple that writes the RAW decoder for Canon files, much like any other 3rd party RAW decoder.

I'll stop derailing the thread when people stop writing misinformation that needs correcting.

Ya man. Can't have disinformation. Might lose some OS X converts and you know Jobs wouldn't like that.

rBrady
05-14-2009, 03:18 PM
I guess cgbeige cant be reasoned with.
I apologize to everyone for feeding the fire.

Aikiman
05-14-2009, 08:44 PM
This thread is fast becoming diluted once again unfortunately. I still want to know the pros and cons about IP and Importons. Appears to me that GI and FG are still kings perhaps not as fast, but in any case I wont have to learn how to use the newer technology...for now :)

withego
05-15-2009, 05:40 AM
@Dagon @withego Is there any news on whether mental images are improving the importon/ IP workflow/algorithms?

But given there current state of the function, I suspect there still being developed. Autodesk just put them in there for people who want to expiriment right now.

and is there anyway to turn on the image caching framebuffer in maya 2009 without ctrl_ghost?


For the first question since Dagon is betatesting MR, I guess he got more news than me....!

Concerning the second question about "image caching framebuffer in Maya 2009" after searching a few threads:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=87&t=644507&highlight=FrameBuffer+Virtual+Cache

http://forum.lamrug.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1413&p=6048&hilit=image+caching&sid=a0b9e8e590875069f75c7a2a449e243b#p6048

I guess that with Maya 2009 you can trigger the "image caching framebuffer" by adding a string option in the miDefaultOptions, such as:

Name= fb_virtual cached
Value= 2
Type= Integer

I'm just guessing, so I will appreciate if Dagon, Max (Ctrl.Studio), Bart (lamrug.org) or Archoury (Rachid) could explain how to enable the "image caching framebuffer" function with Maya 2009, since it was already present in maya 2008 SP1 through the Ctrl Ghost shader.....???!

Ciao....!
Alex

techmage
05-15-2009, 08:35 AM
is there anyway to get the framebuffer cache mode function in 3ds max?

dagon1978
05-15-2009, 03:30 PM
@Dagon @withego Is there any news on whether mental images are improving the importon/ IP workflow/algorithms?

yes, they are, but i can't give any more info


I guess that with Maya 2009 you can trigger the "image caching framebuffer" by adding a string option in the miDefaultOptions, such as:

Name= fb_virtual cached
Value= 2
Type= Integer

I'm just guessing, so I will appreciate if Dagon, Max (Ctrl.Studio), Bart (lamrug.org) or Archoury (Rachid) could explain how to enable the "image caching framebuffer" function with Maya 2009, since it was already present in maya 2008 SP1 through the Ctrl Ghost shader.....???!

Ciao....!
Alex


hi Alex, you can use the fb cache with the below strings, but only in batch rendering(!)

setAttr -type "string" "miDefaultOptions.stringOptions[27].name" "fb_virtual";
setAttr -type "string" "miDefaultOptions.stringOptions[27].type" "integer";
setAttr -type "string" "miDefaultOptions.stringOptions[27].value" "2";

dagon1978
05-15-2009, 11:29 PM
My initial understanding was that irridance particles were to compete with Vray irridance particles. As in being, the one click ultimate solution to all GI, a replacement for FG, but better.

IP is a mental image algorithm, i think it's patent pending right now, there is not irradiance particles in vray, vray use irradiance cache for primary diffuse rays, this is similar to FG
for secondary (or even primary) rays vray can use the lightcache algorithm that is similar (a kind of reverse photon mapping), but also different from IP


is there anyway to get the framebuffer cache mode function in 3ds max?
mmm i dont know, in max you can't use the string options, you may try the max version of the ctrl.ghost, i remember the fb option was hidden, but never tried it (probably you need to use backburner)

withego
05-16-2009, 05:18 AM
yes, they are, but i can't give any more info


Hi Alex, you can use the fb cache with the below strings, but only in batch rendering(!)

setAttr -type "string" "miDefaultOptions.stringOptions[27].name" "fb_virtual";
setAttr -type "string" "miDefaultOptions.stringOptions[27].type" "integer";
setAttr -type "string" "miDefaultOptions.stringOptions[27].value" "2";

Hi Dagon thanks for the quick response....!

So that means that with Maya 2009, we can just add a new string [28] in the miDefaultOptions, in my case [28], since string [27] is used to set the IMPORTONS emission.
And feed the values as follows:

Name= fb_virtual
Value= 2
Type= integer

And go on to batch render from the rendering menu...?

The reason I'm asking this, is that on the Lamrug forum they discussed how to enable
the fb cache via the strings you mention, but only with batch rendering from the command line, which I don't use often....!

Ciao...!

Alex

dagon1978
05-16-2009, 08:04 PM
Hi Dagon thanks for the quick response....!

So that means that with Maya 2009, we can just add a new string [28] in the miDefaultOptions, in my case [28], since string [27] is used to set the IMPORTONS emission.
And feed the values as follows:

Name= fb_virtual
Value= 2
Type= integer

And go on to batch render from the rendering menu...?

The reason I'm asking this, is that on the Lamrug forum they discussed how to enable
the fb cache via the strings you mention, but only with batch rendering from the command line, which I don't use often....!

Ciao...!

Alex

Ciao Alex,
yes you're right, the string option doesn't work, i dont know exactly why, maybe if Max is reading this he can give us an hint, because ctrl.ghost is working very well

withego
05-17-2009, 04:48 AM
Ciao Alex,
yes you're right, the string option doesn't work, i dont know exactly why, maybe if Max is reading this he can give us an hint, because ctrl.ghost is working very well

Hi Dagon,
After testing on my "extreme" (309 mb) Maya & Mr exterior scene, whit a lot of ZBrush 32 bit displacement maps, Miss Fast Skin materials, massive use use of Ivy generator & Pfx, Car paint shader etc. etc, it really seems to work also with the string option [28] enabled in the mi_default Options...!
I've batch rendered the scene without the string option and after 4 hrs. at 100% rendering done, MR start to flush and fails to write the FB exiting with status 1.
With the string option, MR at 100% rendering done start to flush but amazingly write out the FB and no exit code is displayed in the render log file...!

End of render log without string:
JOB 0.3 progr: 100.0% rendered on ego-c20e829e2d5.3
RC 0.2 info : rendering statistics
RC 0.2 info : type number per eye ray
RC 0.2 info : eye rays 6911455 1.00
RC 0.2 info : transparent rays 2042044 0.30
RC 0.2 info : reflection rays 7976137 1.15
RC 0.2 info : refraction rays 3262416 0.47
RC 0.2 info : shadow rays 565439349 81.81
RC 0.2 info : environment rays 3094640 0.45
RC 0.2 info : finalgather rays 9693193 1.40
RC 0.2 info : probe rays 266395675 38.54
RC 0.2 info : fg points interpolated 80131276 11.59
RC 0.2 info : on average 88.10 finalgather points used per interpolation
RCI 0.2 info : main bsp tree statistics:
RCI 0.2 info : max depth : 40
RCI 0.2 info : max leaf size : 520
RCI 0.2 info : average depth : 35
RCI 0.2 info : average leaf size : 9
RCI 0.2 info : leafnodes : 4919670
RCI 0.2 info : bsp size (Kb) : 257261
PHEN 0.2 progr: calling output shaders
PHEN 0.2 progr: maya_shaderglow(): Computing glow...
PHEN 0.2 info : maya_shaderglow(): Glow: Filter Width .... 63
PHEN 0.2 info : maya_shaderglow(): Resolution ...... 0.638926
PHEN 0.2 info : maya_shaderglow(): Normalization ... 7.938000
PHEN 0.2 info : maya_shaderglow(): Halo: Filter Width .... 157
PHEN 0.2 info : maya_shaderglow(): Resolution ...... 0.260841
PHEN 0.2 info : maya_shaderglow(): Normalization ... 49.298000
PHEN 0.2 progr: maya_shaderglow(): Done!
PHEN 0.2 progr: writing image file C:/Documents and Settings/ALEX/Desktop/SPONZA2009/SPONZA16.exr (frame 1)
MEM 0.2 info : allocation of 48000000 bytes failed: flushing
MEM 0.2 info : try '-memory 1150' for future runs
MEM 0.2 progr: scene cache flushed 280 MB in 0.13s, now: 951 MB
MEM 0.1 progr: scene cache flushed asynchronously 103 MB for module JOB, now: 877 MB
MEM 0.2 info : allocation of 48000000 bytes failed: flushing
MEM 0.2 progr: scene cache flushed 6 MB in 0.00s, now: 870 MB
MEM 0.1 progr: scene cache flushed asynchronously 234 MB for module JOB, now: 712 MB
MEM 0.2 info : allocation of 48000000 bytes failed: flushing
MEM 0.1 progr: scene cache flushed asynchronously 178 MB for module JOB, now: 626 MB
MEM 0.2 info : allocation of 48000000 bytes failed: flushing
MEM 0.1 progr: scene cache flushed asynchronously 156 MB for module JOB, now: 560 MB
MEM 0.2 info : ================ memory error post-mortem ================
MEM 0.2 info : -------- memory summary --------
MEM 0.2 info : module max MB curr MB %bytes
MEM 0.2 info : MEM 506 51 10.39
MEM 0.2 info : DB 888 228 45.86
MEM 0.2 info : PHEN 405 176 35.42
MEM 0.2 info : RC 205 0 0.02
MEM 0.2 info : GAPMI 37 0 0.01
MEM 0.2 info : IMG 6087 1 0.25
MEM 0.2 info : JOB 1 0 0.19
MEM 0.2 info : GEOMI 1495 0 0.07
MEM 0.2 info : TRANS 13 0 0.00
MEM 0.2 info : LIB 160 33 6.81
MEM 0.2 info : API 7 0 0.00
MEM 0.2 info : RCI 1117 0 0.02
MEM 0.2 info : RCGI 26 4 0.94
MEM 0.2 info : GAPDI 722 0 0.00
MEM 0.2 info : GAPPO 250 0 0.00
MEM 0.2 info : RCFG 104 0 0.00
MEM 0.2 info : DBN 169 0 0.01
MEM 0.2 info : other 5 0.01
MEM 0.2 info :
MEM 0.2 info : total 498 100.00
MEM 0.2 info :
MEM 0.2 info : max heap memory approx. 1563 MB, now approx. 560 MB
MEM 0.2 info : -------- database summary --------
DB 0.2 info : database elements by module:
DB 0.2 info : jobs MB #jobs MB #nonjobs module
DB 0.2 info : 43 2734 3 915 GAPMI
DB 0.2 info : 23 276 56 12 IMG
DB 0.2 info : 0 0 4 3 LIB
DB 0.2 info : 0 911 200 8325 API
DB 0.2 info : 3 4 0 10 RCGI
DB 0.2 info :
DB 0.2 info : database elements by type:
DB 0.2 info : jobs MB #jobs MB #nonjobs type
DB 0.2 info : 23 276 56 6 13 image
DB 0.2 info : 42 1823 199 908 40 nbox
DB 0.2 info : 3 1 0 8 63 invalid
DB 0.2 info : 0 0 3 915 95 region_tri_list
DB 0.2 info : 0 0 4 1 108 kdtree_pos
DB 0.2 info : 0 1826 2 10196 other
DB 0.2 info :
DB 0.2 info : 70 3926 265 12034 total
MEM 0.2 info : run with '-message mem debug --' for more info.
MEM 0.2 info : please try lower -memory settings.
mental ray: out of memory
MEM 0.2 info : allocation of 48000000 bytes failed: flushing
MEM 0.2 progr: scene cache flushed 3 MB in 0.00s, now: 556 MB
MEM 0.1 progr: scene cache flushed asynchronously 136 MB for module JOB, now: 463 MB
mental ray: out of memory
MEM 0.2 info : allocation of 48000000 bytes failed: flushing
MEM 0.2 progr: scene cache flushed 10 MB in 0.00s, now: 452 MB
MEM 0.1 progr: scene cache flushed asynchronously 104 MB for module JOB, now: 347 MB
mental ray: out of memory
MEM 0.2 info : allocation of 48000000 bytes failed: flushing
MEM 0.2 progr: scene cache flushed 6 MB in 0.00s, now: 340 MB
MEM 0.1 progr: scene cache flushed asynchronously 23 MB for module JOB, now: 317 MB
mental ray: out of memory
MEM 0.2 info : allocation of 48000000 bytes failed: flushing
MEM 0.2 progr: scene cache flushed 12 MB in 0.00s, now: 304 MB
mental ray: out of memory
MEM 0.2 info : allocation of 48000000 bytes failed: flushing
mental ray: out of memory
MEM 0.2 fatal 031008: can't allocate 48000000 bytes.
MEM 0.2 fatal 031008: can't allocate 48000000 bytes.
MEM 0.2 fatal 031008: can't allocate 48000000 bytes.
MEM 0.2 fatal 031008: can't allocate 48000000 bytes.
MEM 0.2 info : cleaning up memory mapped frame buffers
MEM 0.2 error 031075: timeout cleaning up frame buffers
// Maya exited with status 1

End of render log with string:
JOB 0.4 progr: 100.0% rendered on ego-c20e829e2d5.4
RC 0.2 info : rendering statistics
RC 0.2 info : type number per eye ray
RC 0.2 info : eye rays 6911452 1.00
RC 0.2 info : transparent rays 2041931 0.30
RC 0.2 info : reflection rays 7976878 1.15
RC 0.2 info : refraction rays 3261300 0.47
RC 0.2 info : shadow rays 565430215 81.81
RC 0.2 info : environment rays 3094796 0.45
RC 0.2 info : finalgather rays 9692404 1.40
RC 0.2 info : probe rays 266390927 38.54
RC 0.2 info : fg points interpolated 80127942 11.59
RC 0.2 info : on average 88.10 finalgather points used per interpolation
RCI 0.2 info : main bsp tree statistics:
RCI 0.2 info : max depth : 40
RCI 0.2 info : max leaf size : 520
RCI 0.2 info : average depth : 35
RCI 0.2 info : average leaf size : 9
RCI 0.2 info : leafnodes : 4919670
RCI 0.2 info : bsp size (Kb) : 257261
PHEN 0.2 progr: calling output shaders
PHEN 0.2 progr: maya_shaderglow(): Computing glow...
PHEN 0.2 info : maya_shaderglow(): Glow: Filter Width .... 63
PHEN 0.2 info : maya_shaderglow(): Resolution ...... 0.638926
PHEN 0.2 info : maya_shaderglow(): Normalization ... 7.938000
PHEN 0.2 info : maya_shaderglow(): Halo: Filter Width .... 157
PHEN 0.2 info : maya_shaderglow(): Resolution ...... 0.260841
PHEN 0.2 info : maya_shaderglow(): Normalization ... 49.298000
PHEN 0.2 progr: maya_shaderglow(): Done!
PHEN 0.2 progr: writing image file C:/Documents and Settings/ALEX/Desktop/SPONZA2009/SPONZA14.exr (frame 1)
MEM 0.2 info : allocation of 48000000 bytes failed: flushing
MEM 0.2 info : try '-memory 1150' for future runs
MEM 0.2 progr: scene cache flushed 278 MB in 0.07s, now: 950 MB
MEM 0.1 progr: scene cache flushed asynchronously 103 MB for module JOB, now: 876 MB
RC 0.2 progr: rendering finished
RC 0.2 info : wallclock 4:10:55.30 for rendering
RC 0.2 info : allocated 875 MB, max resident 1562 MB
GAPM 0.2 info : triangle count (including retessellation) : 11127699
PHEN 0.2 info : Reflection rays skipped by threshold: 21676859
PHEN 0.2 info : Refraction rays skipped by threshold: 19658492
Scene C:/Documents and Settings/ALEX/Desktop/SPONZA2009/SPONZADISPLACEMENTSSSBASTA5SPEROIVY__2948.mb completed.

Now I'm just not sure about the naming convention for the first value of the string which is the name of the string, because looking at the other strings no other values displays underscores like in this one: Name= fb_virtual

Anyway this string just saved my ass, with this rendering so it could be real lifesaver with large scene like mine...!

Ciao...!
Alex

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05-17-2009, 04:48 AM
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