Sunset at the Desert - need critique

[CybrGfx]

Not a bad little piece.

What did you learn from the thread about managing your painting, and how did you apply it to this work?

The main problems I see are General Composition ~ While you have a good flow to this piece, there is no real Focal Point, the eye just jumps around from rock to rock to rock to sun and around, and the piece itself is somewhat flat and boring. What or why should the viewer be interested in this? The rocks? The sky? Is there a story behind what we are seeing?

Your values need work, everything is very flat, with no real shadows to correspond to your light source, the sun...The pale things on the ground pretending to be shadows are going in different directions....Consistency.

I like the curved brush strokes you used to make this, and the foremost rock has some really nice coloring, even though it looks flat.

~C

[ladokar]

Thanks Cybrgfx, you'r the most one who commented on two of my attempts, or even three...I'm a self-taught guy...I learn from those like you, but honestly I failed to understand the first comment you made on my previous post...and still need suggestions...so I can learn from my mistakes...I used the rule of the third but spiritlessly...I tried to pay attention to your first comment to my previous post, but unfortunately the result isn't promising :(
I would ask you kindly how could I understand the things you mentioned, which I need to enhance my work ^_^
Thanks in advance, and glad that you dropped by :)

[figueroa]

Great scene ladokar. You have a great sense of color and the light is really working.

Some thoughts that come to mind...
It seems you have a "Rule of Thirds" going also where the scene can be divided equally into three parts that have the same visual weight. To balance it though try making the far right set of rocks a bit lighter in value at the base to see if that works. Also to make things pop try adding in a deeper purple value for the high parts of the sunset and I think things will really pop from foreground to background.

-Fig

[ladokar]

Thanks a lot, I will apply the suggestions, and come back again...
I much appreciate it :)

[RoadToAwe]

The rock in the middle is really nicely lighted, why not do the same for the one in the forground? it looks really flat. Im not sure why but is feels like the objects have been pasted in and are not connecting to eachother, more like a illustration in illustrator rather then a painting if it makes sense. Its a good start for a painting thou, work into it and add some kind of focal point...Im not an expert myself but its just a thought

[RoadToAwe]

...when I look at it again, the rock in the foreground looks flat because the layers doesnt seem to go around the rock, the rock seems flat like its just been cut out of a texture...

[ladokar]

Thanks for your good thought ... :wavey:

I'm thinking of all the comments

I will consider your comment...while mending the painting...
Thanks again :)

[ladokar]

Thanks guys for your supportive comments...
While thinking of your suggestions...I started with this one...I thought that two is better than one. In this new one I need your inspiring suggestions...
Her name is violet...she is waiting for me to ask for your suggestions so she will finally have her story told...I need you suggestions where I can go from here...and most of all what can be done to enhance the piece ...
I exchanged glances at some references at the net for the nose and the eyes...also browsed some materials for the skin tones...the face of the girl is one that I was thinking of Venus...while drawing ....maybe the painting changed a bit from the basic drawing :hmm:
Thanks guys in advance :wavey:

http://ladokar.googlepages.com/SadBeauty_resized.jpg

[NR43]

You have some anatomy issues in the portrait.


The eyes should be halfway the height of the skull and should be aligned on the same height (try lowering her left eye)
You did a great job making the eyeballs appear spherical, but remember that they are placed in sockets that are designed by nature to hold spherical eyes. You can emphasize this by accentuating the eyelids (both upper and lower).
The nose should go a bit inward at eye level
The mouth could be located a tad higher and it is normally protruding, what Hogarth calls the mouth barrel.
The mouth would look more intriguing if the middle line was more prominent (darker in value than the top edge of the upper lip and the bottom edge of the lower lip)
Try making the intrusion underneath the mouth (above the chin) a bit more present.

This should get you started :)

[ladokar]

Thanks NR43 for the considerable comments...
I'll work on that :)

[ladokar]

This is the new enhanced version of "Sunset at the Desert"...thanks friends for your suggestions :)
Special thanks to CybrGfx for the great advice...
What do you think?
Is it working now?

http://ladokar.googlepages.com/Rocky_19_mended.jpg

[DArcy1]

Much much better ! rather than just being a place, it has a sence of dynamism missing in your original post. There is still some problem with your brushstrokes being too flat, especially the top of the big rock. I'd highlight the sunlit edges a bit more. Also, kill some of the detail in the shadows, we tend not to see details as well in the dark spaces - see Mr Stahlberg's paintover thread and you'll see it is a common mistake he corrects alot.

D'Arcy

[ladokar]

Thanks DArcy1...
I'll work on your comment :)

[CybrGfx]

Nice improvement, Ladokar! You're learning. It doesn't come naturally, and it doesn't come instantly. It comes from practice, practice, and more practice. Look how much just this one painting has improved with some thought and practice.

The suggestion to check Mr. Stahlberg's Paint Over thread is an excellent one. You will see many lighting problems and suggestions on how to improve them.

Keep painting, keep practicing. You're getting better all the time!

~C

[ladokar]

Thanks a lot CybrGfx...your great advice has yielded its fruit...sorry for the late reply...busy in some sort :hmm:
I've already started reeding Mr. Stahlberg's thread...and I'm still enjoying the good paintovers...I really appreciate your great advice... :)
DArcy1...thanks for your constructive advice:wavey:

[ladokar]

For those serious ones who want to learn something priceless, here is a worthy material:
Mr. Stahlberg Paintover Thread (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=199&t=359226&highlight=stahlberg+paintover)

[ladokar]

Finally I feel satisfied :D ...thanks guys for the constructive comments, I've heeded them all...just one thing i felt that it's already ok...I tried to lower her left eye but the result didn't appeal to me so I decided to keep them as they are...I made a line between the two eyes and they seemed fairly aligned ...

Before any further modifications...please your suggestions and comments are my pleasure :)

http://ladokar.googlepages.com/SadBeauty_17_contrast_resized.jpg

[ninkan]

Hey, its nice to see how this artwork is turning out..its really coming out well.

Can you resize the eyes or do suomething about the eyes cause they seem to be popping out from the face...and that is making her look scary.
And more depth and highlights for the hair.

[ladokar]

I'll see what can be done to make them better :)
Thanks ninkan :D

[ninkan]

the lips seem to float...i mean they dont seem to get blended along with the skin.
And the colour of the eyebrows..

[VISEone]

Your overall look is very blurry - so I wouln't set those sharp highlights on the eyeballs - it makes it look like "frogeyes".
Also your right eye is too big for this pose. You shortened the mouth/lips but the right eye is almost straight view.
keep on - it's developing good! Just a few more work to do and you'll be satisfied :wip:

[ladokar]

Thanks...hmm...good point of view :)
I'll work on your comments soon :wip:

[ladokar]

ninkan I didn't see your 2nd comment first...sorry !
I had similar thoughts about the lips...
And this is the way how I pay attention to my mistakes :)

[alenah]

hi,
your painting style is pretty nice and clean - but - the illustration lacks some important definition in some areas ..

besides what has already been said - the main problem (to my eyes) is the basic overall shape of the girl´s face (cheek, chin, neck ) .. not sure if this shape was painted on purpose, but - it makes the girl look less attractive, in my opinion ..
- - in fact - very little correction of this issue may help quite a lot (by fixing the shape and adding some more/deeper shadows in contrast to the lighter areas to define the volume a bit better, see the neck and the basic skin shading - chin, cheeck.) ...
http://www.ahdesign.cz/images/00/replies/21_1_tvar_duo.jpg

and the eyes ... yes, as Wolfgang and others mentioned - they look too round, too much "out of the socket", too far from each other ..
there is more issues with her eyes, actually: their shape is very much simplified (missing a lot of tiny details/anatomical shapes), the pupils are very blurry - need more definition, her eyes are completely missing more little highligts to feel more "natural/alive" .. etc ..

well - there is bunch of different possible ways how the eyes could possibly look like - (I am sure other artists would have finished up with a completely different look of her "new" eyes :) ) so - here is only one of the possible ways - a paintover of mine:
I tried to keep as much as possible (position/direction, size, color) - but - there was a few "necessary" tweeks here and there (the anatomical shapes, the distance between the eyes, the eyelids folowing the direction of her look, etc.) ...
(this is a very quick/rough paintover, so it is not as clean as your painting :) )
in the animation below you can see the depiction of main structures (shapes, position, deep shadow areas ..)
http://www.ahdesign.cz/images/00/replies/21_2_oci.jpg

http://www.ahdesign.cz/images/00/replies/21_3paintover_oci.gif

perhaps the nose also needs something: I would say her nose is viewed too much from the side - but - it should perhaps (according to the overal face position) be viewed a bit more
"from the front" (sorry my English) ..
not very obvious, hope you´ll see what I mean ..
http://www.ahdesign.cz/images/00/replies/21_4nos.gif

.. wel -- put together - this is what I ended up with, by now :)
(just very rough paintover, the nose/mouth etc. still need more definition .. )
http://www.ahdesign.cz/images/00/replies/21_5komplet.gif
hopefully something of this helps a bit,
a.

[CybrGfx]

While I agree about the shadows, I TOTALLY disagree about the eyes.

Different people have different eye shapes, and the anatomical shape of the paintover is more an "eye symbol," of how alenah thinks eyes look, rather than actual eye shapes...
http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00464/SNF05TR01_280_464090a.jpg
http://www.style.com/slideshows/fashionshows/F2007RTW/ANNASUI/BACKSTAGE/00240m.jpg
http://a2.vox.com/6a00f48ceeb57b000300fa967729720003-320pi

I don't know if this is a portrait of a real person or not, but assuming it is, I would be insulted to have someone thin my face if I was heavy, or squint up my eyes if they were large...
Alenah, while I know you had the best intentions, when you do a paintover, you cannot assume how the model looks. All you can do is make those anatomical adjustments that deal with the features as you see them...You cannot reshape the eybrows too dramatically, nor make too drastic of changes to the eyelashes. Maybe she's wearing makeup but doesn't tweeze her eyebrows...You don't know. Some people have wide noses and large eyes.

The main issue I see with this portrait is the VALUES that provide shading and depth. The planes of the face are not properly illuminated, with the RH side of the canvas too square and hard edged, the hair too flat, and the eyes too bright. The eyebrows and eyelashes are too harsh and black, which draws the attention even more to the "scary eyes..."

Anatomically, the irises of the eyes are too small, giving them a somewhat piggish look.
The nose is angled too far in profile for the rest of the face, and the right temple (LH side) is too far out for the profile.

Here is a less drastic paintover, adjusting the values, the irises, and moving the tip of the nose over slightly. Mainly, it was adjusting the values, though...
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/5025/redheaduc2.gif
While the left side of the face (LH side of canvas) still needs additional shadows, without seeing a reference, I didn't want to guess at the width of the face.

My only question is why is there SO much empty canvas on both sides of the portrait? If you aren't going to paint anything there, crop it off.

~C

[alenah]

I don't know if this is a portrait of a real person or not, but assuming it is, I would be insulted to have someone thin my face if I was heavy, or squint up my eyes if they were large...
Alenah, while I know you had the best intentions, when you do a paintover, you cannot assume how the model looks. All you can do is make those anatomical adjustments that deal with the features as you see them...You cannot reshape the eybrows too dramatically, nor make too drastic of changes to the eyelashes. Maybe she's wearing makeup but doesn't tweeze her eyebrows...You don't know. Some people have wide noses and large eyes.

~C

well - ok - neither do I - neither I know if this is a portrait of a real person or not;
ok, you assumed it was a painting of a real person - well - assumed it was not;
perhaps I may be wrong, but I do not think anyone who puts some effort into posting his/her crit/thoughts (either in text or making paintover) means to insult anyone, in any way;

what is the difference between the comment/crits in words (suggesting to fix/change whatever) - and the paintover? yes, the paintover is more obvious (that is what paintovers are) - but - is a painover more insulting than the "text/writen" suggestion/ thoughs/ crits on whatever?
isn´t giving tips/possible suggestions/saying one´s opinon (either in words or painted, just another way how to tell the ideas) the purpose of such wip/help searching threads, though those suggestions/tips might be irrelevant?

yes - in case the girl was painted according to real person, you are exactly right about the "drastic paintover" - but - in case it was painted from imagination - why do you think I could not suggest what I think could possibly help the artist in any way??
unless the artist does not provide this kind of information/ref photo - who knows? not me, and neither you - so we both are only assuming .. right or wrong way;

so - - perhaps I was/assumed wrong - and - the model was really painted according to real model - but - in that case - the author may either take something of those suggetsions of mine - or - may completely ignore it,
it is as simple as that;

if you read properly - I was only offering/suggesting one of possible ways the eyes/proportions may possibly look like - and - I was only giving tips, suggestions, speaking about what - to my eyes - seems in proportions in the painting we can see is wrong, using words/expressions "may" (instead of "must"), perhaps (not "for sure") etc.

but - I never said "your model looks wrong"; sorry, you misunderstood, CybrGFX;
I was only trying to say "the painting - to my eyes - assuming this was painted is from imagination - looks wrong in proportions, giving a few possible suggestions",
nothing more, nothing less

about the ref photos you provided and about the eyes - yes, you are exactly right about the eyes - different people have different eye shapes, obviously .. and - yes, we can see different (even widelly open) eyes in your ref pics - but - unlike in the painting - there IS A REASON for that in those face expressions of your models; the models are looking upwards, or whasoever .. but - this does not apply to the painted girl portrait - since she is looking straighly on the viewer, and - is viewed in a straight/still/calm possition - so - assuming this was painted from imagination - there is no reason for those widely open eyes, in my opinion (unless the model is surprised, for example - but - the other facial features do not seem - accordingly - like that in this particular illustration .. )
take care, a.

[alenah]

ladokar, Ghassan - in case you possibly understood my post the same way way, too (like CybrGFX did) - and also find the paitover/notes/crits on proportions insulting - I am sorry - I was just trying to comment the painting, assuming you paint from imagination and are looking for some painting/proportion tips that you cannot figure out yourself,
take care,
a.

[ladokar]

First I would say sorry I didn't mention that there's no specific reference for the girl...I just browsed some references for the nose, and skin tones ;) ....so maybe I should look for a reference to correct things up :hmm:

CybrGfx I waited for your comments and suggestions since I got used to your way of explaining things...your comments are so appreciated, thanks :)

alenah...you offended non... since I'm the one who asked for critique in the first place...:)
I may now make a new layer with construction lines that define a better proportions and perspective, a more attractive face and post it for some suggestions... maybe I should have done that from the beginning ;P

All this motivate me :)

[CybrGfx]

CybrGfx I waited for your comments and suggestions since I got used to your way of explaining things...your comments are so appreciated, thanks :)

...All this motivate me :)EXCELLENT!

I do not do this for money, nor acclaim, nor any sort of personal desire to see any individual necessarily do things in any particular manner simply because I said so...

I point out those (to me) VISIBLE mistakes in composition, anatomy, and general rendering. That is the purpose of a WIP critique. Hopefully, others are likewise encouraged and motivated by my observations, but it never bothers me if they are not. If the posting artist is able to comprehend and understand my observations and comments, that is all that matters. Everything else is superfluous...

You are most welcome, Ladokar, it pleasures me to have been of assistance to you.
Please feel free to e-mail or PM me for a critique anytime I may miss an upload that you would like feedback upon.

~C

[alenah]

ladokar/Ghassan, glad to hear I could help, you are welcome :)
and glad to hear that you consider to make those changes/research before you proceed with your painting -
looking forward to seeing your "new" work :)
a.

[CGTalk Moderation]

This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.