CGTalk - Caligari Releases Latest Version of Truespace

Tibbar

07-24-2008, 02:46 AM

I know what you mean. I was introduced to 3D with trueSpace but after I moved onto 3ds Max, everything seemed so much more logical! But the trueSpace interface has a certain charm. All of those pretty little icons ;)

But actually, it can be quite handy having the context based toolbars in trueSpace appear right next to the object you're working on, especially the modeling tools, instead of being buried in menus (Maya) or in a column all the way to the right (Max).

Spater

07-24-2008, 02:48 AM

oh man, truespace was my first 3D app. what memories I had working through those tutorials

Szos

07-24-2008, 03:15 AM

I am curious what "the catch" is...

Is it time-limited? Or render output is watermarked or something like that?

I think with the release of DX11 and MS now owning them, TrueSpace could turn into a showcase for what can be done with this technology... but like others have stated, I can't get pasted that interface (and I too am a MAX user).

LetterRip

07-24-2008, 03:21 AM

There isn't really a 'catch' this is meant to both be MS answer to Google Sketchup, and to strengthen the adoption of MS game platform SDKs for future game developers. I expected this from the day that it was announced MS was purchasing Caligari, I'm just a bit surprised it took so long.

LetterRip

Rezonance

07-24-2008, 07:12 AM

Yep trueSpace was my introduction to 3D to. At the the time ts2 was a work of art. Simple and friendly.

The only thing that interests me is the NURBS toolset.

Aritz

07-24-2008, 08:55 AM

Yes, my first 3d app to. Release 2, I think. I remenber that I made a pirateship with booleans and an industrial building from FF7 :scream:. No so bad memories about the interface :rolleyes:.

JoshBowman

07-24-2008, 09:20 AM

Truespace 2 was also my first taste of a 3D package as well. Memories. I remember sticking a bunch of free 3d models into the thing, rendering an image and then stick my high schools name on it and it won the year book cover for that year :D
Dropped it as soon as I got 3DS MAX R2 though which was much easier to use. Dropped that for Maya, haven't wanted to use Truespace or 3DS Max again.

Matski007

07-24-2008, 09:30 AM

no Catch, I believe its a fully functional commercially free product available to everyone at any capacity.
The new toolsets really bring this software into its own, It could appear gimicky but when it comes to some of its more advanced features you will realise this isnt true.
I am a maya user myself, but I still go back to truespace every now and then because some things are just so much faster in it.

The physics engine is like no other ive played with in packages, the realtime cloth simulation is pretty impressive, allowing you to import/create objects and move them around whilst effecting the cloth and maintaining a decent FPS.

Its free so give it a go! heh

DDS

07-24-2008, 09:57 AM

...Google Sketchup is more conventional and easier to use. I thought they would develop it further to cover a wider range of users...

Mike.H

07-24-2008, 11:06 AM

R10k

07-24-2008, 11:16 AM

It's cool to see this released for free, but the interface has gone from usable (6.6) to quite bonkers with version 7. All they had to do was add shortcuts to the camera and improve on what they had (as they have, effects-wise), but now TS7 is like a strange, inconsistent mess of a halfway house between the two. As someone who got a huge amount out of 6.6, even I find 7 hard to use. It's UI is just crazily odd, with unlisted shortcuts in some views and not in others, and other nutty 'tacked on' menus which don't at all match the older ones from version 6 and earlier.

That said, if someone can get the hang of it there's a lot to be enjoyed, but...

cresshead

07-24-2008, 12:35 PM

I´ve never been a fan of truespace, however it´s a very capable app and the price realy cant be argued...

Lot´s of nice 3d apps available for little to nothing these days (sketchup, truespace, houdini 9.5)

just to clarify houdini 9.5 is not free, there's a ple version of houdini much as there's a ple version of motion bulder and maya and 'free' resticted use apps and demo's for xsi mod tool, 3dsmax and lightwave.

Mike.H

07-24-2008, 02:01 PM

yep, but you do have the HD version for 99us$ which is the same as little to nothing :)
But as you said, still not for comercial work tho.

cresshead

07-24-2008, 05:25 PM

yeah the addition of truspace into the 'commercial capable free 3d app zone' is most welcome especially for people starting out or colleges and such wanting to offer free applictions to learn on so their students can carry on at home.

other than truespace we have blender, wings3d and daz studio and some older itterations of apps such as versions of bryce 3d and poser, so truespace has joined a small collection for new users to take advantage and learn without any cost and with no restrictions on import/export or useage unlike some free versions like google sketch-up, gmax, xsi mod tool and the ple's of houdini, vue, maya, motion builder and the xsi mod tool.

arquebus

07-24-2008, 06:26 PM

I notice there is a video download with the app, but once the videos are installed, where do you access them?

Tibbar

07-24-2008, 06:40 PM

\trueSpace76\tS\PDFMan\resources\

contains movies.

Trojan123

07-24-2008, 07:10 PM

Well sunofagun! I've been wondering about them lately.

Been a Truespacer, tried to go to Blender but, just couldn't.

I've been on 5.2, but this is really great news.

Matski007

07-24-2008, 10:56 PM

Hmm, I actually find the tool set fairly intuitive, however TS7.6 is still in the middle of the crossover phase between version 6 and 7, as some tools are still not available in version 7, there is a bridge between it and the older to make all tools available. I'm pretty sure when all the tools are moved over, it should be a lot more user friendly.
Not sure what Sketchup is like to use, but I doubt that it contains as many features as truespace, such as rendering, physics, advanced texturing capabilities, and some very handy animation tools, including blendshapes.
I think it appears mind boggling generally because as I have noticed apps such as 3DMax and Maya follow fairly similar layouts, but Truespace is something else entirely.

Not being a professional in 3D modelling I guess its hard to comment really, all I know is Im a fan of both Truespace and Maya and I expect to be using Truespace and Blender in my future commercial work as they both feature as advanced toolsets as their extremely expensive adversaries! lol

Also notice how much of a great community Truespace has, full of very helpful members including many of the key developers, beta testers and the head CEO of Caligari.
Truly for the available free video courses, helpful community, Truespace is a fantastic piece of software for beginners and im sure is capable of producing more professional work too.

behzad

07-24-2008, 10:57 PM

I installed it, 10 min later uninstalled it.
Can't stand the interface. I will stick to Carrara.

Boone

07-24-2008, 10:58 PM

Best news I've heard since I started 3D animation back in 2003.

ctguitars

07-24-2008, 11:18 PM

DDS

07-24-2008, 11:45 PM

DuttyFoot

07-25-2008, 01:01 AM

Originally Posted by ctguitars
Hi Guys,

All wonderful for those who maybe stopped at version 5 or 6.6 re paying for upgrades. But not so great for us who paid out good cash to upgrade to an unfinished v7/7.5 and were waiting for an upgrade which used/ported the toolset over to the new workspace area. Also not so great for those who paid nicely for the training including the proteam payout. All training now free also ... apparently. Well it looks like - just write it off and move on.

Bah
Aidan

that really sucks

StrangeSharp

07-25-2008, 01:58 AM

truSpace 4.0 was my first 3d app. I loved the interface back then, which I think exemplified elegance and simplicity.

I dropped 3d as a hobby altogether for a decade or so. And when I decided to go back to it, truSpace was my first stop. What was elegant and simple in 4.0 seemed to me like a big mess in 7.x.

I hope Microsoft will drive it in the right direction. I believe it can become a capable application once it's all cleaned up.

But still, the memories... :love:

Frank Lake

07-25-2008, 02:32 AM

that's messed up.

No that's Caligari. They've been using the same "bait & switch" sales tactic for a long time. Pre-version 4 (anyone remember the version 3 email spamming?).

I'd say download it and try it out, but sadly it's not even worth the effort. Not even for the Real Time render engine, online collaboration, Node system, or the Intelligent Object features can save version 7+ from it's own worst enemy.

Maybe when TS doesn't perform as expected within 3-6 months MS will clean house.

Signed; An X-tS user.

TylerAZambori

07-25-2008, 05:56 AM

heh. Frankly, the only one that is really above-board is the blender foundation.
And the only way to really know is to try it yourself.

ctguitars

07-25-2008, 10:38 AM

Hi Guys,

All wonderful for those who maybe stopped at version 5 or 6.6 re paying for upgrades. But not so great for us who paid out good cash to upgrade to an unfinished v7/7.5 and were waiting for an upgrade which used/ported the toolset over to the new workspace area. Also not so great for those who paid nicely for the training including the proteam payout. All training now free also ... apparently. Well it looks like - just write it off and move on.

Bah
Aidan

Having said all this I should add - imagine how all of us would feel as a - < add your fav paid for 3D app > - if literally overnight it became completely FREE, training and all - no warning. Whether you like TS or not I hope you understand how this feels - a little cheated to say the least!

I am amazed over at the caligari forums that all the users including long time users, fully paid up, are cheering this free version 7.6, Im amazed, they must all have deep pockets. But to be frank I think quiet alot of people DID NOT upgrade to 7, they went as far as 5 ish, hence no real hastle financially,

Aidan

inguatu

07-25-2008, 02:34 PM

Having said all this I should add - imagine how all of us would feel as a - < add your fav paid for 3D app > - if literally overnight it became completely FREE, training and all - no warning. Whether you like TS or not I hope you understand how this feels - a little cheated to say the least!

I am amazed over at the caligari forums that all the users including long time users, fully paid up, are cheering this free version 7.6, Im amazed, they must all have deep pockets. But to be frank I think quiet alot of people DID NOT upgrade to 7, they went as far as 5 ish, hence no real hastle financially,

Aidan

well, considering the app and the company are past their prime, it was bound to happen. I'm surprised they've been around this long. I thought the company bought the farm years ago considering Truespace hasn't done anything innovative in years. I wouldn't recommend Truespace to my worst enemy who was starting into 3D and wanted a free app. I don't care for Blender that much but that app has a lot of great support and has continued to evolve over the years, in the right way.

I think it's time to move on, oh Truespace champions.

bsm3d

07-25-2008, 02:51 PM

Would be awesome but so far I just cant stand the interface. Nice feature set though.

Hi,

Interface are fully customisable and you can mimic 3dsmax or maya one if you like :-)

bsm3d

07-25-2008, 02:56 PM

I like the Nodals interface, physics, and graph, that's moda moda effects :-)

I also like the DirectX and OpenGL CG shading in a reat visual environment with Nodals, Scripting and Editor as you want...

The Texture baking is really good ! I don't speack about Radiosity and Vray support who is really simple ;)

That's sound a good tool to have for Realtime artist.

Does Microsoft Virtual Earth war Vs google Earth as begin ? I think yes, so Sketchup and Truespace are not for the same kin dof users at all.

bsm3d

07-25-2008, 03:07 PM

About the FREE release and for those who buyed Truespace in past...Autodesk do similar thing with Sales viz and few months later stop it and ask to pay upgrade for max designer...Softimage do the same with Foundation...and ask user to pay upgrade to next Up release...

Truespace do the same but for FREE, who is the Best and Bad one ?

[Bad mode On]

I don't blame anyone but all company are seam playing the Monopoly with customers catching and after lock their...Pay my little donkey, pay to put cash flow in your compagnies...after all now adesk release 2 versions per years. Damned please take time to release a good one without all those stumble bugs and you reputation come better.

We are all like cow for editors...what's real value past great 3D softwares are giving us today ? always the sames working : Artists friendly, green, productivity,...

And I don't speack again about twice the prices in Europe Vs UsA!

[Bad mode Off]

PixelTricks

07-25-2008, 04:40 PM

I got to commend them.
This is going to be huge.
I have not used Truepsace since version 2. But after loading up the free version and looking it over I can it has come a long way ! It is going to be great for the hobbyist and even pro community. Game modders are going to love the directx support. This is something that is going to get a lot of people into 3d.

WoolyLoach

07-25-2008, 05:42 PM

I grabbed it immediately. Sure, the interface is a bit different, but it was no harder for me to pick up than anything else I've ever used (Carrara 6, Poser 6, Blender, Groboto, XSI Mod Tool). I'll use it to create game assets since I can export .X, then take Milkshape and convert to DTS for the Torque Game Engine.

This is good news for people that aren't rich, aren't making a living off 3D, and/or are trying to learn the basics and aren't eligible for the educational version!

Frank Lake

07-25-2008, 09:17 PM

About the FREE release and for those who buyed Truespace in past...Autodesk do similar thing with Sales viz and few months later stop it and ask to pay upgrade for max designer...Softimage do the same with Foundation...and ask user to pay upgrade to next Up release...

Truespace do the same but for FREE, who is the Best and Bad one ?

I believe that you've mis-understood what Caligari does. They will have a sale for a new update, and then a few months or weeks later cut the price by 70% or release the update for free. v7 users have been hit twice with paying for the version and now someone can casually download and all of the v7 tutorials for free is more than a kick in the gut for any hobbyist.

There are several tools that have great potential, but they are in a poorly developed UI with much of the tooling not even up to '05 levels of standard. Even crappy software that is "free" has it's limits of usability. This is one of them.

Trojan123

07-25-2008, 09:27 PM

Yeah, I've fallen for their bait-and-switch before.

I was saving my change to ge a much- needed upgrade to Media Studio Pro, when an e-mail came in saying that they were going to sell TS5.2 1 last time at $150, and that it would be gone forever after that.

So, I reluctantly jumped on it.

Just a couple months later, guess what? It was for sale again- for only $90 or so. Again, for the last time.

Pissed. Me. Off.

Well, now I have 7.6... and what can I say? They really try and make things more confusing with every release, don't they?

This sure isn't the same app as TS3.1!

eworc

07-25-2008, 10:17 PM

This is classic Caligari to the nth level. They constantly had these "deals" for their software only to then have another "deal" shaving off hundreds of dollars everytime you turned around. Giving the shaft to everyone that buys their software at full price...then they do the ultimate and just give away their latest and greatest for free. I am glad I stopped playing their musical chair game back in TS 5.1. I think the regular users over at their forum are in shock since 99% of them are acting happy about the whole thing and don't realize that they were just screwed major league.

Like others, I loaded in 7.6 and 10 min later uninstalled it.

mykyl

07-25-2008, 10:39 PM

The biggest problem they have is 7.6 comes with one of the worst setups imaginable IMHO.

However it can be customised very well and becomes a very easy to use tool but you have to do a bit of initial work to get there.

My advise to the install/glance at/uninstall crowd is find out how to customise it or ask for some good customisations made by others then judge it.

Its not the best but it does have a place and could be good.

It may look like classic Caligari but I am pretty sure Caligari answer to Microsoft now. ;)

Cheers

Mike R

markyy

07-26-2008, 04:50 AM

> Interface are fully customisable and you can mimic 3dsmax or maya one if you like :-)

How does TS interface make sense if it is that flip floppy?

Boone

07-26-2008, 10:03 AM

I will agree about the "deals" offered by Caligari in the past and also that the company is now under the thumb of Microsoft.

However, the product itself has gotten better overtime and the only thing I could still slam it for is it's stability(which does piss me off). If Caligari(or is it MicroSoft? Hmmm) decides to keep TrueSpace as a free-download then its a good thing as you dont have to pay for upgrades anymore. However, if they bring back a price-tag then you may as well stick with Blender.

R10k

07-26-2008, 01:39 PM

The biggest problem they have is 7.6 comes with one of the worst setups imaginable IMHO.

They're not as bad as I first thought. After reading through the 140+ pages for the interface section of the manual (which were thankfully mostly images!) I can now actually see what version 7 is. For those wondering, here's a breakdown...

TS 7.6 is not one program, but two. It's the old version 6.6 mixed half combined with the new version 7 tech. That might seem obvious at first (because some toolbars seem new, and others seem old and work differently), but there's more to it than first meets the eye.

In the default view, you have two main tabbed areas. The Workspace, and the Model view. The Workspace view is the new DX9 playground. It works completely differently from the Model view, control-wise. And, that's because it's pretty much a different program set up to take data from the Model view. The Model view is presented as a modelling section, but it's actually the old Truespace, integrated in with the new nodal controls, right down to all of the rendering. (which is strange, it being put forward as a modelling area of the app) Anyhow, if you've ever used Truespace before, this is where to hang out at first, because it's almost exactly the same as good ol' Truespace. If all you want is the old Truespace, then it's all there.

New people to the program will no doubt be utterly confused, but the thing to grasp is that TS 7.6 is two programs pretty much working in tandem with each other. Once that sinks in, it's not so bad. Of course, Caligari have created a seriously inelegant solution to many of the things they've implimented (and no, I'm not talking about all the icons, which are fine once you get used to them) and gone widget crazy as usual, in keeping with the idea the future of 3D is not in the simple solutions you'd fine in most modern 3D apps. And, that's a shame, because in many ways Truespace is still one of the most unique tools on the market, which provides some amazing things... like the ability to do procedural animation in a nodal way like XSI has presented in ICE.

TylerAZambori

07-26-2008, 02:30 PM

So could you be more specific about what is seriously inelegant, besides the widgets
and the division of old and new truespace?

thanks....

R10k

07-26-2008, 02:46 PM

There's a ton of different things. The working of the nodal system comes to mind. I'd call Softimage's ICE elegant in how easily things can be set up, searched, commented on and run with visual debugging, while Truespace's seems to be inelegant in design... especially in terms of usability. It's all functional, but in an "all over the place" kind of way.

Then there are things like the Workspace view, which has its own set of modelling tools... no doubt because the newer tech involved in some of the tools had to start there. But still, I'd call having two areas for both 'rendering' (Realtime and Raytracing) and modelling inelegant. Obviously an application half way between a technology changeover could be expected to have areas of inelegance. In Truespace's case, even with that considered, the layout and design of things reminds me of a large box, where all the tools have been lazily thrown in, in an attempt to make them available to the person looking in there, without much thought about how someone would go about finding or using them.

To know what I mean, you really have to have a look yourself. Considering the fascinating things the app can do (sometimes it's fun looking through the proverbial box of tools), even if you found it inelegant as well, you might still find much to enjoy. In terms of what's seriously inelegant though, I could be here all night going over the things I've noticed ;)

Trojan123

07-26-2008, 04:16 PM

R10k,
I really appreciate your posts- with the time you took to write them and the detail you go in them. Thank you.

So, the DEFAULT screen/tab is actually TS7, and the MODEL tab is TS6? SO what is the other tab that says TRUESPACE6? Or are the TRUESPACE6 and the MODEL tabs linked to each other?

And, is the MODEL tab the only way to open other models that aren't found in the OBJECTS BASE to the right?

Plus, despite the DirectX real time rendering in the DEFAULT tab, is the External rendering button- which you have to buy for $300- the only way to render a scene in DEFAULT tab?

richcz3

07-26-2008, 05:24 PM

Googles Sketchup has two versions - The free download version and then the Pro version.
Google uses the free version to get a foot hold in schools/education and hobbiest fields with the understanding that a competent well versed user will then pay for the full version.

Now I don't know if I see Microsoft giving away a full application for free perpetually just to get market share. Had that been the case - there would have been free full functional versions of Expressions Suite (Silverlight) to get market share from Adobe (Flash). (Enter the DOJ - so I don't see that happening anytime soon)

I would imagine that MS plans to get under the hood. Fix bugs and engineer product specific tools into True Space and probably rename it. Reintroduce it with a competent point release for sale matched with a trial version similar to the current Expressions suite of apps.

PixelTricks

07-26-2008, 06:30 PM

The application really has potential , but that interface. ugh. I haven't been that confused since blender. I actually considered several times just closing it because of the interface alone. I was watching the tutorial movies and noticed it suffers from the same thing that Max suffers from. You click in the viewport, then go hunt the icon or menu, then click again, hunt down icon, etc. These companies really need to hire some interface designers that fully understand workflow.

manthing

07-27-2008, 03:21 AM

You can turn the icons into text if you feel more comfortable that way. The interface is more max-like than the old one but is extremely customisable; so if you want it to be more reminscent of your favourite package, it's possible.

R10k

07-27-2008, 09:12 AM

SO what is the other tab that says TRUESPACE6? Or are the TRUESPACE6 and the MODEL tabs linked to each other?

The Truespace 6 tab is a layout option, which sets the Workspace view to be clutter free (like TS6) and the Model view to look like the default setup for TS6. (I hope that makes sense).

And, is the MODEL tab the only way to open other models that aren't found in the OBJECTS BASE to the right?

That's a good question! I'm not 100% sure at the moment :)

Plus, despite the DirectX real time rendering in the DEFAULT tab, is the External rendering button- which you have to buy for $300- the only way to render a scene in DEFAULT tab?

At the moment, all I know is that rendering takes place in the Model view, if you want to render with the built in Lightworks and Virtualight renderers. If you want Vray (which you have to pay for) I believe it happens there too, but it might be possible in the Player view.

To summarise- the four tabs at the very top are layout presets, and the two below are the two types of views (one being the older version of TS, and the other one the more modern one).

These companies really need to hire some interface designers that fully understand workflow.

Indeed they do.

R10k

07-27-2008, 09:48 AM

Frank Lake

07-27-2008, 05:32 PM

Als

07-28-2008, 12:03 AM

Well, I've downloaded it and will test it.
I was quite happy to splash my money on v6.6, with promise of all sorts of plugins which do things.
Imagine my suprise when none of those was working and they all required authorisation which I didn't get. After trying to contact some of the plugin authors, I got rebound emails, or no replies at all.
The arogance was a big issue as well, and at least they now got want they wanted and that's to make some money.
If you look at the gallery and examples on their site, there is planty of such a bad models and animations, which look at best 25 years old.
Old versions of Caligari had a great user interface, which could make sense with a limited number of icons. Now my issue was that there was so many icons that no one could really make sense out of them and it was really really slow to work them out.

My suggestions:
- if possible make the interface usable for professionals. For example make it work same as max, maya or xsi. If it's easy to do it - prove it. If it's difficult, then even better reason to do it. Look at a sketchup ease of use, which you are competing with...
- clean out the bugs, and get rid of the options which supposed to work, but don't.
- put maximum effort in 3delight and vray plugins, make those plugins free and then you are talking...
- open up to suggestions... ;)

I might be wrong, because they main goal now cold be amateur market and realtime graphics, in which case just ignore me completely...

Als

inguatu

07-28-2008, 11:56 AM

To be honest while TS does require a radical rebuild on it's UI, I can not see this happening any time soon. Given how the old Caligari owner was very much "My way or the highway!" about his UI approach and MS's less then stellar record when it comes to workflow improvements. It may well be far into next year (or the year after) before this issues are firmly started on the path to resolution.

And if TS ever gets ported to another OS may be a dream. :wise:

How does MS factor into Caligari's lack of workflow improvements in TS? TS porting to another OS would kill it. It's not like you hit a "Compile for OSX" button. It's a rewrite, and Caligari doesn't have the money, time to undertake that.

Frank Lake

07-28-2008, 08:26 PM

Because Microsoft owns Caligari's thus making trueSpace an MS product. ;)

Further it moots the "they don't have the time/money" argument because they are flushed with MS money which means they'll have large amounts of both AND access to Windows developers directly. In addition MS won't stand for poor performance and will start ripping and tearing TS apart in the effor to make a package FAR more standardized and user friendly. But like I said that's potentially years down the road. :D

Hirazi

07-28-2008, 08:51 PM

circusboy

07-30-2008, 09:28 PM

Thing is, IMHO, Microsoft will probably can Truespace as a standalone product all together,
just utilizing some of it's technology in other software...

edit: let me state explicitly: I don't say that would be a good idea...
Reaks of end-of-line to me as well. If its free is there any point in developing it?
Yes MS has a lot of money-but if a program no longer is a source of revenue than there isn't any point in paying staff developers to work further on it. Wipe-our-hands-your-all-on-your-own-and-you-can't-complain-cause-its-free.

Sure those folks may move on to other things-but you may not recognize their work in the furture product/s. Assimulated transparently.

csven

08-07-2008, 01:51 PM

I see this move as having nothing to do with 3D applications per se and everything to do with the future of advertising (which explains why Google bothered to acquire SketchUp in the first place).

Once upon a time word processors and office application suites cost money. Now Google (and others) offer them for free. I see no reason to believe 3D applications won't follow the same path.

Meanwhile, keep an eye on Dassault (which is also involved with Virtual Earth). They're not into advertising like Goog and MS, but the gap is closing between them all.