Practice Practice Practice makes perfect...

[Drag-N]

Well, let's see some of these questions...

With all of the technology involved does this old saying even true with this?

You learn and learn in 3d.. and it doesn’t mean squat 2 years later..
With painting, a new program comes out every 8 months...

Well, the basics will always remain the same.. Speed is probably the only thing that will really change with newer technology... I don't think that there is anybody out there who makes use of every new piece of tool coming their way (especially since the use of many of these tools is often considered cheating and can easily be spotted). Actually, I know that there are some people out there who still use old versions of Photoshop.
So, it all comes down to the basics (even with 3D)...

Tutorials, do they really help? Or is it just another "trick" added to your arsenal without actually becoming better?

Yes, they are often just another technique added to your arsenal... But, you might find a tutorial that will provide you with exactly what you need to reach you desired level...
Maybe you should try a different approach... For instance, have you tried going from abstract to concrete? It has helped people like Andrew 'Android' Jones and Daryl Mandryk:
http://www.imaginefx.com/02287754333423425799/from-concept-to-creation.html
http://www.imaginefx.com/02287754332787410211/creating-beauty-out-of-chaos.html
Of course, you need to be really good technically for these workflows, and I don't know how good you are... Anyhow, this is just an example...

[TGNSD]

Here's a cliche phrase...

Practice doesn't make Perfection, Perfect Practice is what makes Perfection...

anyways, what is perfection though? You have to compare yourself to anothers work to say whether or not your work is up to snuff...your probably being your own toughest critique, let others judge and see if your developing new skills/techniques...

I've taken minor weekly painting courses... (like camp for young adults...lame i know) and I can't say they were an immediate improvement but I did learn several new techniques so I definitely recommend at least trying a local course at a nearby community college...

hope that helps...

[Lunatique]

Practicing is not a simple blanket word that you may think it is. There are complexities involved in practicing. Ask youself these questions:

1) Are you simply repeating what you already know when you practice, and not pushing forward to things you don't know and haven't mastered?

2) Do you have a list of goals when you practice? Do you set goals with each practice session?

3) Do you know what is the most effective way to practice a certain skill?

4) Are you just going through the motions and spinning your wheels when you practice mindlessly, or are you being very observant and engaging your critical thinking and analytical mind while practicing, noting your every move and assessing how effective every decision and move was, and how to improve upon them?

5) Do you know how to be resourceful and search for knowledge that will aid you in your growth?

The main problem with a lot of artists is that they don't know how to work and learn in a smart manner, and tend to just spin their wheels with no real game plan or purpose. If you are methodical and analytical and critical in your growth, you will improve so much faster than simply going through the motions without thinking about what it is you're actually doing.

[Ranc0r]

Ok wanted to let it sit before replying.

Abstract to concrete seems like a different way than I do things so I will give it a try.

I am my own worst critic, so I have updated my portfolio here just (file://\st) for this so please review.
also an old portfolio online (05) www.johndmeade.com (http://www.johndmeade.com)

And no I was not aware of complexities of practicing. I pick a picture in my mind and I attempt to replicate it.
So to answer per number Lunatique..
1 I know neither my strenghts or weaknesses really. I just know that my image doesnt really turn out how I want it to.
2 No, what kind of goals would one set? What are some examples?
3. No, when I paint I just do something until it looks how I want it to.
4. Spinning my wheels actually sounds close, but I am very observant of what works and what doesnt, I thought this was the point of practice?
5. Nope not in any shape or form. Thats why I was asking if tutorials really even matter. Ive done a bunch, great for X situation (like making metal, wood, human skin) Crap for anything else.

[Betrayal]

It is almost impossible to satisfy your mind, once you get it looking good new things will pop up and take over what you accomplished.

It's like buying something you 'really' want you may go through a lot to get it but once you have it you mind will set itself to something else.

Setting goals are brillant. That way you'll have a target to aim for.

If you want to improve your artwork you need to practice but practice 'analytical' like Lunatique have said.

Also ask an artist/teach you might know around your area they could give you valuable advice.

I guess you could ask yourself.

Why it doesn't look right? and see how you can actually change it.

Also you should check out Andrew Loomis's books they are one of the greatest assets you can get for free. He was one of the best artists of the 19th century. Check out the sticky threads on CGSociety i think the link still works.

Another book is "Drawing on the Right Side" by Betty Ewards.

The most important thing is "Patient and Never Give Up", I was like you and probably still am but i'll keep going.

[Lunatique]

Ok, I took a look at your updated portfolio and basically I would categorize what you have in there as early stages of novice work, and you have a long way ahead of you before you reach any level of competence.

I'll ask you some more questions and then I'll try to answer all of your questions, but mind you, I tend to ask questions that are meant to lead you to find answers on your own by thinking in ways you never did before, instead of spoon-feeding every little information, as that is nowhere near as helpful. I'm sure you've heard the saying "If you give a man fish he'll eat for a meal, but if you teach him to fish, he'll eat forever."

1) I see that you went to Full Sail. What kind of classes did you take at Full Sail? Do you still remember what you learned in those classes?

2) How hard did you work at Full Sail? Were you working like a madman non-stop during your schooling there, or were you just coasting?

3) Did you have classmates there that really grew and improved a lot and turned into amazing artists? What do you think the differences are between you and them?


Kenrick-Wu - Loomis is not as ancient as you think. He's actually 20th century and fairly modern. :)

[Ranc0r]

Whats a goal you could set to fufill why you were painting?
Ya and I ask myself allot "why doesnt it look right" normally I dont know and dont know how to fix it.
Used to be Like me, do you think you have improved?

1
Yes I went to Fullsail for Computer Animation. Most of the classes are aimed at directly that.
There were some art classes and I actually enjoyed them the most. I remember alot of what was taught, if I had to guess id say I remember all of the object perspective class. And I did take a few art classes at a local CC, while informative I do not think they helped my art as a whole. (One was a still life drawing class, the other was an Art Theory class)

2
I was a machine at Fullsail. There was a time where I spent a week and a half there, no shower didnt go go home and I would sleep on the floor outside the lab curled up in a ball or putting my head into my knees. I got good grades and did my assignments. Despite my hardwork and many many other peoples hard work in that school only 2 people out of my graduating class got a job, I think the school was flawed. And out of the graduating class before me and the one after only 3 have Ca jobs as well 4 years after graduating. Something is screwed there.


3
Nope not really. I can remember around 3 amazing artists. They were amazing before they started the school. One had already gotten a bachelors in art before coming there. Another had an associate in fine arts. And the other used to teach at a local college, had no idea why he was even at fullsail.


Lunatique when did you start painting? All the good artists I see seem to have started when they were very young, and im an old fart now at 25 :p

[Lunatique]

I've been drawing all my life, but I got serious about it around age 13-ish. I went pro by the time I was 18 (doing comic books full-time). BUT, age has nothing to do with it. I know plenty of people that started late as an adult and because they had talent and they knew how to study/practice smart, they got up to pro level in just a short few years. There's a guy at conceptart.org who has a thread (it's now a sticky thread it should be easy to find in the "Best of CA" subforum) that he started when he was a newbie, and he was pretty much at your level. He kept practicing and posting his improvements in that thread, and in a short time, not only did he become very good, he became a pro and started teaching others. You really should try to search for that thread for inspiration.

Now, with all the information I gathered from you, this is my assessment and recommendation.

1) You said you worked hard in school, and I'd have to think you either had really bad teachers or you were just spinning your wheels on stuff that had no bearing on how your growth as an artist.

2) You took foundation courses but to be totally honest, based on your portfolio, it looks like the work of someone who never studied art at all and is completely lacking in even the most basic foundation knowledge. I don't know if this is the fault of the school or you just were approaching it all from the wrong angle.

3) Based on where you are now, you'll be starting pretty much from scratch since what you were taught in school obviously aint helping you with jack. But do not be discouraged. There are so many guys who are self-taught, including me. If you are resourceful and smart about how you plan your growth as an artist, then you can definitely do really well on your own. Hell, plenty of the self-taught guys I know SMOKE many of the dudes who went to school and have gone on to teach art schools. Truth is, if you're talented and work smart, you'll be that way whether you're in school or on your own, and that is the best combination you can possibly have (well, make that three. Add Perseverance as well).
In fact, if you have two of those three qualities, you'd get somewhere. Just one, maybe not.

4) My recommendation to you right now is to start over. Start with the art tutorial sticky thread right here in this subforum. Also check out the Figure/Anatomy thread that Rebecca leads too. Start participating in her activities. Find the Andrew Loomis books mentioned in the sticky thread and read them from cover to cover, and practice those lessons like hell. Read all the tutorials and lessons listed in that sticky thread--many will teach you much that your school seem to have skipped. Start thinking analytically and start observing the world around you with an analytical mind. Do not just go through the motions.

5) When setting up goals, try something like this example (this is JUST an example of the kind of stuff you could/should be thinking about and planning, it is by no means complete).

(Example goals)

Short Term
-Today I'll read the first 3 chapters of Loomis's Figure Drawing For All It's Worth, and I'll do at least 15 practice drawings from the those chapters.
-Tomorrow I'll read up on values and how they help create a sense of dimension and volume. I'll do at least 10 drawings using values to depict dimensionality.
-Next week I'll read about how stress points and compression form the wrinkles on clothing, and how different types of fabric will react differently to those factors.
-I cannot drawing convincing eyes for the life of me, so I'll need to analyze the structure of the human eye, and understand why it looks the way it does, how it reflects light, how it expresses emotions...etc.
-My animation sucks. I need to examine why. I need to get Animator's Survival Kit by Richard Williams and study the hell out of that book.

Medium Term
-I'll Do a series of practice portraits, half from photos and half from real life sessions. I'll try to make them as photorealistic as possible.
-I'll do at least 5 monochromatic photorealistic paintings of either people or still life or scenery, and they could be in any paint medium. The idea is to get familar with the handling of paint.
-I'll Do at least 10 really good copies of old master's work or artists I admire, and I'll try my best to figure out their thought process and approach while doing these copies.

Long Term
-I want to amass a body of new works within 3 years that are good enough to get me a job as an entry level (insert job description).
-I want to be able to enter Call For Entries invitations from CG annual publications like Expose or Exotique from Ballistic Publishings, and at least get one piece accepted.

etc etc.

[Betrayal]

Wow, thanks Robert.

Never ever thought of some of those things.

This is really helpful tips. I am also practicing to improve my drawing and reading Loomis books at the same time.

They are a bit hard to digest cover by cover and also its not very instructional by that i mean he doesn't say draw these but he does explain the concept/theory which can be overwhelming.

I'll keep your advice in mind thanks.

[BeBraw]

Sometimes seeing how other people work may help to break some mental locks. I have found Bobby Chiu's (http://www.youtube.com/user/digitalbobert) and Riven Phoenix's (http://the-structure-of-man.blogspot.com/) videos excellent for this purpose. Latter ones are commercial (costs around 50 dollars) but they start from very basics which is not a bad thing itself.

I am sure there is a lot of other useful material out there. It's up to you to find the most useful for you. Not everyone learns the same way. :)

[Drag-N]

There's a guy at conceptart.org who has a thread (it's now a sticky thread it should be easy to find in the "Best of CA" subforum) that he started when he was a newbie, and he was pretty much at your level. He kept practicing and posting his improvements in that thread, and in a short time, not only did he become very good, he became a pro and started teaching others. You really should try to search for that thread for inspiration.
Hmm... I would like to see that thread, but I can't find it...

[IronCalf]

I think, Lunatique is talking about "MindCandyMan" and this thread:

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=870

[Lexalotacus]

I have some input on this matter if you guys don mind...

The way I see it, it takes more than talent to get good at art... Some people have the luxury of starting young or having artists for parents. Some people don't, and it doesn't matter that much like was said before.

I think the most important ability you need to have is the drive. The ability to pick up that pencil even though you know there's so many more talented artists than you out there.

My situation, for example is this; I have recently been sketching and doing some sort of 3D or digital painting everyday for the last few months. I hope to keep this up because apparently, it will all pay off in the end. But lately I have these feelings of hopelessness, like Im trying to hard to get something that cant be got. Like I am wearing myself out. But I think eventually, if I have the ability to pull myself out of these ruts and fill another sketchbook up, Ill do ok.

This of course, is just my opinion.
All the best in your quest bro,
L

[Lunatique]

Yeah, that's the thread I was talking about. IMO every single aspiring artist who feel daunted by the journey ahead MUST go through that entire thread, because it is solid proof that if you stick with it, not only can you become good, you can become VERY good.

I think one of the problems is that many who are starting out have no idea the amount of work it takes to get that good, and it feels like you are on this journey with no end in sight, and you don't know if you could keep going or if you'll ever get there. The problem isn't the journey--it's the mentality. A person should not dedicate his life to creative endeavors if it's not out of love and passion and enjoyment. If you are not having any fun at all and every moment of learning, growing, practicing...etc feels like torture to you, then you should not be doing it--pick something else to do with your life. You must think of it like this:

If someone really loves singing in the shower, although he's not very good, should he stop doing it simply because he'll never sound like a professional opera singer? If you really enjoy the endeavor, then that should be the main reason for doing it. Little old ladies around the world enjoys doing little watercolors or velvet paintings of their pets, and most of those are considered horrible art, but hey, they really enjoy themselves and that's all that matters.

To enjoy something is actually quite easy--either you find yourself drawn to the process or you find something else that interests you more. BUT, once you decide you want to excel at it, then you must work hard and work smart at it, and you must stick it out, even if it takes years. There is a very real possibility that some people can only enjoy something when they don't need to push themselves to excel, but as soon as they have to work hard at something, they stop enjoying it. It's more than just about talent and hard work--it's also about personality type, and you don't hear people talking about that aspect enough. There are people who don't enjoy having to push themselves because with that comes stress and expectations, and then there are those who thrive when challenged. Even if you're not the type to enjoy a challenge, you'd still be able to enjoy yourself doing whatever you choose, but you probably won't get very good at it if you don't push forward and meet some challenges.

I get people who contact me all the time, asking for my help, and often they get frustrated after just a few months or a year or so into their journey to become good artists. They'd say things like "But I filled out this whole sketchbook and I didn't see any improvement!" or "I already drew dozens and dozens of heads but I still can't get it right!"

If anyone reading this thread has felt the same or said the same things before, then you must stop thinking like that. It isn't about how many sketchbooks you fill up or how many heads you've drawn--it's about how smart your learning methods are and how analytical you are when you are drawing. The average artist will fill up well over a dozen sketchbooks before they start to get good, and they draw hundreds and thousands of heads to get there--a few dozen is NOTHING in the grand scheme of artistic growth. You could maybe excel faster than the average artist if you are very smart in the way you seek out learning resources, the way you absorb new knowledge, the way you incorporate new knowledge, the way you train your eye/hand coordination, and the way you observe/analyze the world around you and apply them to your artistic growth. But even then, it takes at least a couple of years of full-time hard work to get there. If you look at the really good first-year art students who are already kicking ass, I'll bet that just about every one of them have already been drawing a lot even before they entered art school.

Anyway, have faith in yourself. Be smart in the way you learn and grow and practice. Have patience and stick with it. Also, be honest with yourself. Have you been spinning your wheels without really learning anything? Are you seeking out new knowledge to strengthen your weaknesses and you target those weaknesses when you practice? When you practice, are you analyzing what it is you're doing and asking yourself how would it help you grow, or you are just going through the motions blindly, like an dog walking in circles chasing its own tail?

-Set clear goals, and have realistic expectations.
-Search for knowledge, leave no stone unturned.
-Practice smart and practice often.
-Enjoy the challenge. You should be having fun instead of feeling like it's a chore.
-Failures will teach you more than successes will. Embrace your failures as valuable lessons (analyze your failures and don't repeat them!)

BTW, I've made this thread a sticky because I think it will help others that wander into this forum.

[Ranc0r]

Yay! I have decided to dedicate myself to becoming better and have been faithful to it. I have started a noobie thread at concept art ^_^

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1869576#post1869576


That thread was really inspiring, and I knew of the site I never took a serious look around. There are tons of ppl who sucked at some point, which to be honest is encouraging lol
This thread was very helpful in me determining exactly what I wanted and a little bit more on how to achieve it. Thank you very much everyone ^_^

I heard twice now that drawing is more fundamentally important than painting. (Like if you can draw well to begin with your paintings will be better)
Even though I want to paint really well should I be focusing on drawing first?


I am currently working out of the book "Anatomy Made Amazingly Easy" : By Christopher Hart.

[Lunatique]

Yay! Starting that thread is a good idea, as people will be tracking your growth and can tailor their feedback based on the rate/direction of your growth.

I would say that drawing is more important than painting. The often misunderstood thing about painting is that it is somehow a separate thing from drawing. It really isn't. Painting is still drawing, since you are still dealing with shapes primarily. If a painting is monochromatic, it is still a painting, no? And if you did a drawing that's completed shaded, it'll look very similar to the monochromatic painting, no? So if you don't consider color for a moment, you'll see drawing and painting aren't that different. And with drawing, you can use colored pencil, pastel, markers...etc, so with a full colored drawing, how different is it from a painting?

With painting, if you get the shapes wrong, then no amount of brushwork can save a painting, but if you get the shapes right, even if your brushwork isn't impressive like John singer Sargent or Richard Schmid, it at least wouldn't look wrong.

So yeah, make sure you can draw well, and the rest will come easier than if you didn't. Just keep in mind that while you are practicing painting, you are still practicing drawing at the same time--you cannot separate the two and you should never make the mistake of separating the two in your mind.

My advice is to make sure your drawing skills are at least average before you attempt painting--meaning get your drawings to look like the average quality of an average art school student, which usually translates into not stunning, but no glaring technical mistakes in proportion, perspective, and lighting. The average drawing may not portray the volume and values as correctly as should, but at least it suggests them and has no glaring mistakes like depicting a white cylinder having darker form shadows than a medium grey cylinder.

[Betrayal]

Robert i don't suppose you could give us a run-down of how you practice / what you drew etc.. before you turned pro?

Obviously you've already recommended Loomis books, (Did you use those? stupid question).

I'm currently reading Drawing Heads and Hands but theres a section i don't quiet understand which is the planes topic where he showed everything in blocky pictures but i'm not sure how i'm suppose to draw those so i did a plain copy.

Also did you do a lot of wacom drawings or just plain pencil?

[Lunatique]

Well, even after you turn pro you should still continue to learn and grow--it really is a life-long journey. I doubt any masters when dying of old age felt like they had mastered it all, and for most creative types, a lifetime is not nearly enough to do all that we want to do.

Important stages of growth don't necessarily happen before one made a living as an artist. Whether you make money with your talent/skill is not really a watermark in your artistic journey--plenty of people who make a living as artists are very limited in their skill and even their level of talent--to the point of being dubbed as incompetent or a hack, yet they can still enjoy a career doing it. Which industry you become a pro in does make a difference though--for example, if you want to be a concept artist for film and games, then the accepted skill/talent level would generally be higher than some of the other industries. There's also style and intent. An artist who does abstract or very simple cute greeting card illustration may not have the goal of mastering photorealism, and it would be unreasonable to expect that from such an artist. So one question every aspiring artist needs to answer for himself is "What career path do I want to take?"

For me, I got serious about drawing around 13 or 14, and I knew I wanted to be a storyteller first and foremost, and my artwork is there to serve my storytelling. That has never changed, and I'm always happier illustrating my own intellectual property than playing with someone else's toys. Well, fan art can be a lot of fun I guess, since you're emotionally attached to works you are a big fan of.

My sketchbooks were typically filled with anatomy studies, life drawing (of family and friends and classmates), storyboards, concept art...etc. As I got older, my sketchbook became more like project planning/research, where I'd design stuff for an upcoming painting, or working out a problematic composition I'm dealing with on a new painting, or concept art for my screenplays and treatments. I'd still practice some of the other stuff, but not nearly as much. My growth at the later stages were mostly project based. For example, if I was working on a painting that had an infant in it, I'd do research into what makes infants look the way they do, and I'd do sketches to figure out the core qualities of an infant's proportions, skin tone...etc.

One of the most important aspect of practicing and studying smart is to not merely copy, but read between the lines and understand what are the core ideas in a lesson. This is precisely why the most useful tutorials aren't necessarily ones where the artist just documents all the steps--the best tutorials are the ones where the artist explains the ideas and philosophies behind his working method. He'll explain why he chose a particular composition, why he used a particular color scheme, or why he lit the scene a certain way to achieve a particular mood, or why he prefers to draw female noses a certain way.

When practicing--let's say a life drawing of your girlfriend sitting on the couch playing your Xbox360. Assuming she's not naked, you'd have to draw the folds in her clothing. Instead of merely copying what you see, you should take note of where the compression points are, how the wrinkles will go from the compression points to the stress points (for example, the armpit is a compression point, and the shoulder is a stress point). When you understand the core ideas behind how and why nature works the way it does, you're well on your way to learning and practicing in a smart manner instead of just going through the motions and spinning your wheel.

The most drastic improvement phase for me happened during the time when Craig Mullins was still active on the internet (at Sijun Forums). Many of the members there didn't go to a high profile art school like he did, and he was very nurturing to us pups. He taught us the core ideas behind why things look the way they do, the higher concepts of visual construction and structure, such as the relationship between textures and values and colors, how form and colors contribute to an image and which is more important, and also taught us how to deconstruct an image and figure out why it can convey the mood or style that it does. I had already been a professional artist for about 10 years before I wandered into the Sijun forums, and of course I had some idea of all that stuff, but many links were missing and some concepts were hazy in my mind. It wasn't until being part of the Sijun community and learning from Craig did everything eventually come into focus. He spelled it out in ways I had never thought of before. It's a shame he's no longer active. I miss him like hell. Craig essentially influenced a large portion of the current generation of young concept/matte artists.

In any lesson about visual art, you should always remember that the core ideas are always the same, and they are the most importan and also the most basic foundations in any image. I personally break it down into something like:

General:

-Composition
-Shapes
-Values/lighting
-Color theory

Depending on subject matter:

-Figure drawing/Anatomy
-Perspective
-Design (biological, mechanical, architectural, decorative pattens/colors...etc)

Depending on medium/style:

-Line quality
-Brushwork
-Textures

Depending on intent:

-Idea behind the image (storytelling, atmosphere, socio-political statement, emotional expression, intellectual exploration...etc)

To answer your other questions, I didn't discover Loomis until I'd already turned pro, and most of the stuff he taught I'd had already picked up from other sources (Jack Hamm, for example) or through experience. What I did find more helpful to me at that stage was Creative Illustration, as that is the most advanced book of his IMO. It deals with the higher concepts like those Craig taught us at Sijun.

The whole planes thing is really about helping you understand how to simplify the complex curved surfaces that exist all around us. A good analogy is if you took a color photo and ran it through Photoshop's "posterize" filter, and you'll see how it simplifies millions of colors into just a handful, but retains the overall color scheme. Visualizing complex curves in planes is just like that, except it deals with shapes instead of color. To be able to draw in planes effectively, you must first do some time in perspective lessons, to at least understand how basic perspective is constructed, otherwise you'd struggle with drawing in planes.

For drawing, I didn't start using the computer/tablet until about 1998, and by 2001 I pretty much converted to digital for everything except personal enjoyment (I love traditional oil painting). Prior to 1998 it was all traditional mediums. Is doesn't matter what you use though--just please don't use a mouse.

[Betrayal]

As always i really appreciate you taking the time to answer questions us noobies have. Thank you.

It was very insightful (not what i expected) thank you for sharing. I bought "Perspective Made Easy by Ernest Norling" which Loomis recommended in his book :).

Do you think it's better to finish that first and then continue with the planes section or just read them side by side?

Thanks again ;D

[Lunatique]

For myself, I tend to first get an overview of all aspects of what I'd need to learn--reading the intros to each chapter of a book, or doing some research on each discipline, and read up on how they relate to each other so I know why something plays an important role, or why I should become knowledgeable in one area first before moving on. So, if I were you, I'd read whatever chapters once first to get a feel for what's involved and how they might relate to each other, and then proceed to dig deeper into one particular chapter that has been pointed out as the one that should be mastered first, or use your educated guess on what you've read and pick one thing that you think you need to know well--something that will give you the confidence to move forward.

I think in this particular case, as soon as you're able to draw various primitive shapes from any angle accurately in perspective, you can start on the planes. You shouldn't need to master everything about advanced perspective before moving on.

[smackcakes]

I have sat in lots of different art classes, One thing I have heard from art teachers over and over is...

"Draw what you see, not what you know"

I feel this is one of the biggest fallacies ever when it comes to drawing. What they should really be saying is...

"Draw what you know... Just make sure you really know it"

There are two sides to every skill, a physical side and a mental side. Practice only really improves the physical side, helping you to become stronger and more consistent.

Golf is a very physical skill... to achieve a good and consistent golf swing requires years of continuous practice, to reinforce that ideal movement.

Drawing on the other hand is nearly all mental, it's about knowledge and the way to improve your knowledge is by learning (probably reading).

An analogy might be if I asked you to accurately draw my house. You haven't seen my house, you don't know how many floors or windows it has, the likelihood of you managing to accurately draw it is close to zero (and practice won't help).

The same is true of drawing a face. If you don't know how to correctly proportion a face, or the underlying structure of muscles and bones which give it its shape, then how can you ever expect to draw a believable face? (practice? Reading about anatomy is faster).

[Drag-N]

I have sat in lots of different art classes, One thing I have heard from art teachers over and over is...

"Draw what you see, not what you know"

I feel this is one of the biggest fallacies ever when it comes to drawing. What they should really be saying is...

"Draw what you know... Just make sure you really know it"

Well, I think they only say that when you're drawing something that is in front of you. When drawing from observation you probably shouldn't be drawing what you "know". You can't, for instance, draw an accurate portrait of somebody in front of you just having knowledge on human facial features (no knowledge will help you drawing a portrait of Joseph Merrick, the Elephant Man). The same goes with any other type of observational drawing/painting..

You should probably only draw what you know if you're composing a painting out of nothing. Then you need some knowledge to work as a mold..

[smackcakes]

When drawing from observation you probably shouldn't be drawing what you "know". You can't, for instance, draw an accurate portrait of somebody in front of you just having knowledge on human facial features...
Sorry but I disagree, trying to throw together some circus act of a drawing based purely on what you can see from where you are sitting, will always be inferior to actually knowing and understanding what you are looking at.

Caricature artists need to have a very good working knowledge of facial anatomy. Even though they will be drawing new faces, which they have never seen or drawn before. That knowledge of anatomy is what helps them break the persons face down quickly and achieve a good likeness first time.

Drawing what you see is not guaranteed to give you a good likeness, because people move around. Even cameras often fail to really capture the essence of a person and they draw what they see pixel perfect.

On top of that if you don't fully understand what you are looking at then you are much more likely to make a mistake through an error in judgement.

Even with perfect judgement you cannot always trust your eyes, there are optical illusions around to throw you off. Sometimes your vision is obscured and one thing looks like another. Things can look strange from certain angles, and important details regarding shape can be lost in shadows.

This is why I say that you should not just draw what you see. You should know what you are looking at, look at it from different angles, work out the shapes that it is composed of, look at the light sources and where they really are, how they are striking the object.

Then get back in you chair and look at your perspective of all these things. Know what you are looking at and then 'draw what you know'.

[Drag-N]

This is why I say that you should not just draw what you see. You should know what you are looking at, look at it from different angles, work out the shapes that it is composed of, look at the light sources and where they really are, how they are striking the object.

Then get back in you chair and look at your perspective of all these things. Know what you are looking at and then 'draw what you know'.
Well, this is something I can agree with (if you do line drawings..)..

[Lunatique]

The reason why they tell you to just draw what you see and not what you know is simply because they are trying to demystify drawing for people who feel like it's some kind of supernatural skill. People who haven't reached a certain level of competence in drawing will put that skill up on a pedestal and think you need to have some kind of special intuition in order to draw well, and they don't understand that when dealing with depicting likeness in a realistic manner from a defined source (still life, life model, landscape, photo...etc), there's actually a lot of visual calculation and measuring going on, and often it's not about "artistic thinking" at all, but very mathematical and calculated. When you draw what you see, you will think along the lines of:

(These are just made-up examples, not rules.)

"The corners of the mouth ends at the center of the pupil if you draw a vertical line to measure."

"The forehead on that profile is slanting at roughly 25 degrees"

"That spot of highlight is completely white, although the local color is actually purple"

"The distance between the inner elbow and the wrist on that girl is exactly the length of her hand."

"The value of that cast shadow towards the edge is exactly the same as the value at the terminating spot of the object."

When you break what you see down to "exactly" what you see, then you start to think with mathematical precision, which will lead to technically accurate likeness. It is possible to draw exactly what's in front of you even if you never learned your foundations but have honed your ability to capture just what's in front of you, but then you become just a human copy machine. No artistic interpretation, no creativity, just technical skill.

So I agree that the saying of "Draw what you see and not what you know" mostly apply to situations where you are doing an exact likeness of a source in front of you. While it's great that you hone your ability to do that, you should also apply the foundation knowledge you have learned and make creative decisions, such as composition (there is no viewfinder in nature, you have to frame the imagery yourself), what details to focus on and what details to leave out, emphasis on specific colors for artistic effect, simplifying of details (you never draw every single strand of hair--you do an approximation of clumps, strands, layers...etc), deployment of creative brushwork, and so on. But before you get all Picasso on the world, you really should first become proficient at simply drawing what you see. Once you ace that, you can go and get crazy. Not that there's anything wrong with artists who can't draw likeness or any kind of decent representational work, and only do abstract or highly stylized work, but knowing the general interests of the cgtalk members, it's safe to assume most have interests beyond abstract and very stylized works.

And if you want to be able to draw any kind of representational imagery out of your head at all, then you absolutely must be able to draw what you know. Learning the foundations is the most effective way to get you there.

[smackcakes]

I understand why they say it, and that there is a need to break peoples assumptions about what things look like and get them to look harder.

But I think the statement actually makes drawing seem harder and more mystical, like you are somehow supposed to use your hand like some kind of pantograph to trace what your eye is seeing.

It also doesn't directly teach the person 'how to draw'... it's just a vague clue about how to observe. "draw what you see and not what you know" roughly translates to...

"What you think you know is wrong... now work it out yourself"

If you go into a science lesson then you expect to learn some science. You don't expect the teacher to say...

"The world is not flat... good luck!"

I don't think these kind of lessons are helpful to people like Ranc0r who want to improve their drawing, but don't want to spend 10 years working it out themselves like those of us that started as children.

Ranc0r... since you seem determined to improve your drawing (and have even started a thread on concept art about it) let me give you a little bit of advice, which I think will help you.

Your drawing skills aren't as bad as you think. What I believe is really letting you down at the moment is 'laying out' or planning.

Drawing a picture is like building a house. You can't just rush into it and start laying bricks, because soon you will find that the roof won't fit, the walls aren't straight and you forgot to leave room for the pluming. Just like a house, a drawing needs to be planned out first so you know where everything is going to go, how big it is, what shape it is and how it will fit.

Planning is probably one of the most important and most overlooked aspects of drawing. I dread to think how many times I have seen pictures where the artist has obviously spent hours doing loads of beautiful shading and details. But the picture is spoiled because one of the eyes is wonky, or one arm is longer than the other. Why waste all that time shading a picture, that was flawed from the start? Better to spend your time planning and making sure everything is spot on, before you put in all that hard work.


Next time you think about taking part in the daily sketch Ranc0r (I believe the time limit is normally 30 mins). Spend the first 15-20 mins not drawing, just laying out, drawing faint lines and boxes, planning curves, and shadows, marking in where everything is going to go so that it all looks perfect (not just okay, actually perfect). You should have more than enough time left over to define and finish things, any you should notice a big improvement in the quality of your proportions and perspective.

[Maestro99]

Thanks to all who have commented on this post, especially 'Lunatique' I am also a complete beginner who would like to get into the 3D world. I have come to realise that I need to build a good foundation of drawing to understand the shapes of things.

I have been feeling a little lost on how to get started on this journey and found this post very interesting, many thanks

[hidus]

woah! very inspiring thread!!
especially Lunatique...i didnt have any art background and basically m doing my computer engineering...but i am so much into arts,i keep drawing in my class...and my note book is my sketchbook :p ...but i always thought tht just but drawing a lot i would master drawing....now i had to change my opinion.
i just downloaded andrew's ebook on anatomy and ll research on that..
if someone could rate me...do look at my resent work.

(Image removed by moderator to keep this thread less cluttered.)


maybe this is not the proper thread for posting image...forgive me.

[Lunatique]

maybe this is not the proper thread for posting image...forgive me.

I removed the image to keep this thread more streamlined. Can you go ahead and post your image in a separate thread by itself so we can help you in that thread? Thanks. :)

[pedes]

Hmm, there was a question about tutorials here.

I am also self-teaching artist and I think that if you have no formal training tutorials are VERY important. Of course you can find a lot of them from basic color theory to simple WIPs. I can say that sometimes reading one tutorial may be an equivalent to hours of praciticing. But you have to get into the core of what it says, not copy steps. If you are self-taught then you have to be most strickt teacher for yourself and try hard. As i was said, learning is not only practice it's analysing and thinking.

On the other hand too much tutorials may do some harm too. I've realized recently that one of my problems with colors in digital painting is that I subconciously trying to adjust to some techniques I read about even though they are not what I feel comfortable with or want to use.

When you master the basics enough and start experimenting you may have situations, when you suddently realize you improved fast over a short period of time, even though before you seemed not to improve at all. It's because you've learned how to learn and improve faster. But then you'll realize how much there is to learn and...

Well, as it was said, it's pretty much about the drive. From what I can see from other forum, many artists have the time when they feel terrible about their work and want to quit/throw everything out the window. The more effort you put in it the more it is likely to happen. Lot of people DO quit when it happens first time. But the drive is what keeps you getting back to it, no matter the problems.

[hidus]

"On the other hand too much tutorials may do some harm too. I've realized recently that one of my problems with colors in digital painting is that I subconciously trying to adjust to some techniques I read about even though they are not what I feel comfortable with or want to use."

ya sometimes tuts may confuse us...but it shows some new aproach which we never thought of.Its for us to decide what suits our needs..maybe we should make our own style some day :).I am finding Tuts here very helpful..as i am new to photoshop painting.

And no matter how bad my drawing goes,i preserve them in a large file with a large label "HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL":wise:they are never meant to be in my thrash can :)


I removed the image to keep this thread more streamlined. Can you go ahead and post your image in a separate thread by itself so we can help you in that thread? Thanks. :)

i started a new thread,
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=177&t=674294

cheers!

[kevline]

I'm agree with lunatique when he said practice smart.
In my little experience, I prefer practice when I want or I need, you know when you enjoy it, and not to practice all time just to practice and do only bad things. If I see i'm not very concentrate, i stop and i come back later or another day.
I see that like music, i play drums so need to practice a lot for independant, coordination, endurance, rythm, speed, etc... In drum it's better to not training if you don't want or if you haven't motivation. Because when you play with this bad feeling, your playing become bad, you quickly take on bad habits, and therefore we must go back and correct it.
In my opinion, I see drawing or anything like that, but sometimes I need to put a kick in my but* and not to fall in the laziness.
Very good thread here :)

[nahcra]

Practice is not only a solution while practicing we also have to store in our mind.While reading the tutorials also .We just look and practice it and we don't save in our mind .So i feel pratice and storing in mind is muc neccessary .ANd one thing while practicing we have to concentrate in our work .orelse it will be putting water in the sand.
:buttrock:

[pedes]

Well, carefully observing the world is also part of the practice. Each day you can learn something new. Seeing interesting object, person, lightning, try to analyze and rememer it. Sometimes 15 minutes of carefully studying something may have better effects than 5 hours worth of drawing wihtout the analyze, repeating the same mistakes.

[M31]

This is a great thread! Thank you for the helpful advice, Lunatique, and for pointing out MindCandyMan's thread. It is encouraging to see how much he has improved.

Unfortunately, I have not enjoyed drawing in years, since I took some classes and my understanding of art exceeded my ability to create it. It is very painful for me to produce what I know to be rubbish, yet it is far more painful for me to not create. I am hoping that once I move from conscious incompetence to conscious competence, my enjoyment in art can be refound.

I have produced many drawings, including copies of the masters, without seeing much improvement. I believe it is because I am reasonably good at copying what I see, while I was not being mindful enough as to why the masters drew as they did. Thank you for pointing that out, Lunatique, you may have saved me from another fruitless period of spinning my wheels!

I am trying to practice my drawing regularly, and those that I don't delete I shall post in my anatomy sketchbook thread. I am very grateful for any comments, crits, recommendations! :)

[alicelefay]

what to say...thank you for this thread, it gave me the right motivation and strenght to start my "improvement thread":
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=5426006#post5426006

Thank you Rob for your words...you are the first person who made me thought that MAYBE I needed some organisation in my work...that MAYBE I was practising in the wrong way....lol!!

Thank you so much for sharing all this thoughts!!!
:)

[ranaazeem]

well...
i did not read all of the above posts. and i would not comment much about learning different tools and all, because sooner or later i will learn them all (regardless of the fact that other people learned them much sooner than me) . i will concentrate on the work that i want to produce or do. what i have in my mind or imagination. thinking this way or all the time thinking about the character(for example) i want to model or paint. i`ll automatically always be thinking about how i will do it(tools or process). it makes the process easier because may be i knew the process or tools to do that task but i was not implementing it because i thought i would not be able to do so.
so when i see other people work so beautifully done and such freedom of design and concept i see in their work. it makes my hand and mind go crazy and i feel free and powerful(not to mention the greatest help by the description that other users give on how they did the particular image or model, it sometimes opens up possibilities and gives you hint about how you can use something in YOUR IMAGE, that YOU want to do).
so instead of searching and seeing every tutorial i see out there.
i concentrate on searching for the particular problem i am having on the current image that i am working on( for example today!, i am searching help on how to make realistic cloth material, BECAUSE these days i am working on a model and the next thing THAT I DO NOT KNOW MUCH ABOUT AND WANT HELP ON! is cloth shader development).
so if you are not improving in painting, try to figure out or ask other painters that what is the first problem you have. is it your hand?, not going along your brain?. i mean straight lines and all. is it the sense of light?. prospective?. you name it!
so according to me!. this is how it goes.
this is all my personal experience as a junior and i thought may be it will help you too.
regards!
Azeem

[pckhoi]

Thanks you for making such a nice thread. It unlocked my head. I'm still wondering about this: How do I know if I practice the right way? Does my drawing have to show some kind of improvement or is it okay even if it looks worse somehow?

[Lunatique]

I think it'll be pretty obvious that you are improving because simply by reading about foundation theories, you've already gain more advanced understanding that brings the overall view of your path into sharper focus and detail. Gaining additional knowledge can only be beneficial, and how you incorporate that knowledge into your practice sessions will determine how fast you improve. Either way, as long as you are being smart and practical about the way you learn, you can only get better, not worse.

[fionabus]

We all know that practice equals improvement. If your not seeing that improvement at all, your probably not practicing whole heartedly. Except for those rare people who seem to find a way just by looking, we all need some sort of training. All good artists have worked there asses off to get that way! Set a standard for yourself, and live up to it. You have to put your everything into what you do, and once you have, you start to get better. Good art comes from passion and dedication.

Everyone has something there going to pick up faster then someone else. Maybe movement, colour, or perspective; exploit that and practice what your not good at twice as hard. If your not going to art school, read everything you can about anatomy, read all the tutourials you can get your hands on, and practice daily. Some things won't work for you, but some things will. Every artist has their own way of doing things, try to find what works for you and NEVER STOP LEARNING! If you think you can't learn something from another artist, your probably wrong, so get back to the drawing board!

[fabio0069]

Wow... this is an awesome thread. Quality food for us ravenous noobs ;)

[domosan]

Indeed. The suggestions + links to relevant articles has been huge.

[afkeb]

Great thread, I agree with Lunatique. Really refreshing to read about his thoughts on this topic. It's true that its all about finding the way to a greater goal through smaller ones. It's easy to be discouraged by looking at great artists and than say hah I will never be able to do that. By doing this your skipping all the steps in between to get there.

Those artists didn't get there by just 'talent'. I personally don't really belief in talent the way people tent to see it. I prefer to see talent as a love you have for something in this case art enabling to practise and learn (in the way lunatique explained) indefinitely with the outcome to become good.
Art becomes so much 'fuller' and more satisfying when your starting to 'study' it this way so I like to think that loving it will grow along with your progress in art I guess.

What are your thoughts on talent?

Oh why I started this post was to give you guys this link. This is truly a wonderfull website where you can download the books by Andrew Loomis, Gottfried Bammes (although in german a wonderfull anatomy book) and George Bridgeman in .pdf for free go study you all :)

http://gekos.no/art/index.php/best-figure-drawing-books-ever.html

[fionabus]

Talent huh? It's a fickle thing, I'm sure we all know those people who can pick up a pencil and create a Monalisa in 20 mins at age 10. And sure, we have some natural gifts, but our drawings look a little more like Sponge Bob then the freaking Monalisa. So we work hard to get it right. All of this hard work never stops, we learn to pour ourselves into what we do. Sometimes, I think these super talented people get away without putting there full effort into it, and their talent doesn't do them much good because they just get lazy. Then, it's harder for them to get though school and find a steady job. Talent can send you to the top, or make you a lazy person who sits around playing World of Warcraft all day.

[A-I-R]

hmm, how start...
it's sound very interesting the matter what is a intelligence practicing, find the goals, but for me the problems it's the goal, obvius it's very personal, but usualy i ask, what i do?, for why i do? what i looking for? how my art i likes look like? then is when i feel lost and stuck in the way to really apply a analytical or "prefect" practice... the most hard question for me is what i want to do, some times i don't find an answer...

Be original, or just make the things i like...
Feel presure for encourage myself in practice it's obvious "no pain no gain" but don't do the things i don't like it's a natural stage...

your talk about personality and how some don't fit for be an artist, for me i think it's obvious but, some times you only need find your path.

at last, the cuestion is you want be an artist like the industries want... we need sell and work

[Lunatique]

Finding your own creative voice and a career path is a very personal thing, and this isn't something others can decide for you. Most creative people have a fairly clear vision of what they ultimately want to be, and the kind of creative work they want to be doing, but it isn't unheard of when someone is able to cope with the technical demands of a creative endeavor, but not as good with creative ideas. Sometimes people like that end up working in a more technical capacity in production studios--for example, rigging, particle effects, rendering, or even modeling, texturing...etc. Often when you specialize in something where you are told exactly what to do, you only have to just do it--not much creative input involved (this isn't to say people working in those jobs are only there because they are uncreative--some are quite creative with their personal works). Artist who are more on the creative side will go for jobs like concept art, storyboarding, animation, illustration, design...etc.

For personal works, it's really no one else's business what you do, and the only person you have to please is yourself. Some people choose to satisfy the basest level of gratification (sex, violence, lowbrow humor...etc) without ever being interested in exploring higher motivations (intellect, emotions, spiritual needs...etc), while some would feel guilty for giving in to the basest instincts without tapping into the higher motivations. No one can define who you are and who you aspire to become except yourself.

[A-I-R]

thanks, i think, if we have a hi technical skills , we not will stuck be cause of some "problems" giving to life the ideas, we will have the free to choice, then the problems will what we choice, but you have right, it's a very personal way what we doing with our tools...
thanks....


i'll need introspect what i want to my self.... XD sound i need a psychologist XD

[Medz]

Hello. I am new to this forum. I am an illustrator, (well, I have just graduated from college) and I was just wondering: What If I am new to digital painting, and I want to learn it from scratch ? i.e. produce a really good painting from start to finish entirely on Photoshop/Painter, - without my stylistic drawing habits/quirks creeping back in ?


Important stages of growth don't necessarily happen before one made a living as an artist. Whether you make money with your talent/skill is not really a watermark in your artistic journey--plenty of people who make a living as artists are very limited in their skill and even their level of talent--to the point of being dubbed as incompetent or a hack, yet they can still enjoy a career doing it. Which industry you become a pro in does make a difference though--for example, if you want to be a concept artist for film and games, then the accepted skill/talent level would generally be higher than some of the other industries. There's also style and intent. An artist who does abstract or very simple cute greeting card illustration may not have the goal of mastering photorealism, and it would be unreasonable to expect that from such an artist. So one question every aspiring artist needs to answer for himself is "What career path do I want to take?"


Sometimes when I try to learn, I end up integrating my stylised hand-drawn sketches into the final product, using it as a “guide” to help lay down flat colors and blending, - when in reality what I am trying achieve is a full ability to paint digitally, and professionally. My attempts usually end up colored in a “comic-style” which I’m trying to get past. So how do I solve this ? Career-wise, how can I make the transition from being an illustrator, to a concept artist/digital painter?

[Lunatique]

Josh - If you're talking about depicting images using the full dynamic range of values without relying on line art to define details, then it's really just a matter of changing your mentality and seeing everything only in values and lighting and color, not in lines.

One simple way is to fade the opacity of your drawing/sketch layer to a faint 20% or so and keep it as the very top layer. Then, you paint your values and colors underneath that faint drawing/sketch layer, and once the major shapes and lighting/colors are established, you can start to erase away the lines you don't need anymore, or simply paint over those lines on another layer over it.

Some artists don't even do line art at all--they just block in general shapes with values and colors right away and then sort of chisel away at then over the course of the whole painting process. You can try that too.

[Medz]

Thanks Lunatique! I guess I just need to see Photoshop as a new tool to try and master then .. So far I have always drawn traditionally but only developed an interest in “game art” when I had to consider career options. You see, because I have been using pens/pencils ever since I was a kid, I always saw a line drawn between the way I used to work back then, and the awesome skill I aspired to achieve in concept art.

Even now, with regards to practice, I know that still drawing traditionally won’t make me a typical professional concept artist. Although I have an interest to try and learn it, at the same time I know I also have an interest in illustration for print, magazines, editorial etc. .. So it’s hard to choose which career path to try to pursue. In my teens, I never had access to stuff like Photoshop, animation programs to be able to learn that stuff, and at the same time I was reading comics, looking at digital art and just being amazed at “How did they create this stuff!?” It was as if, to me, that this industry just came out of nowhere, and I somehow felt that that kind of quality was what I ultimately had to aspire to. Even so, I used to think back then that game artists didn’t arise from the same backgrounds as “ordinary” artists – and I am still surprised that some great work I’ve seen come from artists who never went to art-school. I still ask myself now “Do I have a shot at being a concept artist ? – Or should I just stick with being an illustrator ?”

... seeing everything only in values and lighting and color, not in lines.
... just block in general shapes with values and colors right away and then sort of chisel away at then over the course of the whole painting process. You can try that too.

I don’t even know if I can adhere to these things the same way as I do with traditional art – although you make it sound so simple its not as easy to me, even if I am using a Wacom (I will upload one my attempts)

[Lunatique]

Take a look at this tutorial by Craig Mullins. I think you'll see pretty clearly how he approaches that workflow:

http://www.gfxartist.com/features/tutorials/7731

Also look in the sticky threads at the top of this forum. I think you'll find many of the tutorials helpful.

[drawallday]

This is an excellent thread. Sorry, I haven't read all of it (only the few first posts on this thread). I do look forward to read all of it when time permits.

Here's what I do in order to practice my drawing skills. Repetition. Keep drawing the same thing again and again until you are able to draw it perfectly from scratch in a short time. For example, I draw the object in various perspectives, lighting etc (whatever technique needs improving).

Your own style comes in when you are having fun and not worrying too much about critiques/perfection.

[Berax0r]

Lunatique i started with Loomis but i am soo bad that i cannot even draw that human proportion. :(

You can see my sketch here:
http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=174760

Can you help me somehow? Thanks!

[Lunatique]

Aerendyl - How long have you been at it? Remember, it takes time and patience. Try judging angles and curves and distances in a very scientific and rational way, like you are measuring the dimensions of a space. Don't think of it as "this is the shoulder, this is the head, this is the...etc" but try to think in terms of "This is roughly two heads wide, This is a symmetrical oval shape like an egg, this is twice the height of...etc." Be precise. If you were measuring an empty space for a new piece of furniture, you'd have to be precise, otherwise you won't be able to fit the new furniture into that space. That's how precise you ought to be.

[Berax0r]

I have been in it for 10 minutes. :banghead:

Some ppl recommended me from Gnomon a DVD of Basic drawing, so i will start there because you first do some lines, circles etc. Then i will switch to Loomis.

[Berax0r]

Ok Lunatique, so i have done lines and few thing from the Loomis book. You can see it here - http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2532978#post2532978

Now what? Should i repeat this things 100 time or? Thanks!

[Berax0r]

@Halen

Yea for that first thing, but you can see my second post. I sketched that for around 1h and half.

[halen]

I have been in it for 10 minutes. :banghead: .

??!?!

We'll - I'm not mutch of a painter/drawer (yet), but I'd answer something like "patience, patience, patience". :D

Speed comes with practice, before that you just need patience and fate.

Those who can, paint something in half of an hour that still takes a whole day from me. But having that patience increases fate, that even if this now looks awfull, I can make it look better if I just sit here long enought and scratch my wacom.

10 minutes? come on - you are kidding - right?

[halen]

@Halen

Yea for that first thing, but you can see my second post. I sketched that for around 1h and half.

Well, it clears a bit, because 1,5h sounds at least somewhat reasonable to even start anything. And just for the record - didn't mean to be mean. Just couldn't get that 10 minutes... :)

For me, 10 minutes of training would be something like this:

(open the book, find good place to read it) "hmm. I think I'll need some coffee" (makes some coffee, finds an another good place to read the book). "hmm...where were I...lets' see - yeah - draw something"... and thats it.

I propably misunderstand you on purpose, but do you mean that now you have rehearsed drawing human figures for 1 hour and 40 minutes? Imho those are not so bad for that.

Disclaimer: I don't have that Loomis book so I don't know where would it take you next, and as I stated earlier there are a lot better painters and drawers out there and you may get better advices from them.

So this is just my opinnion, but at this point I don't see a point just drawing lines and circles - at least I'd get boored in 10 seconds. :surprised This with an exection that you are not actually working on the quality of your line or learning how to hold the pen or different tools and papers work. If you are going for human figures, I'd make those sketches in different poses for at least a week. Post em to that skecth thread and see if it leads to anything.

Since these are skecthes, one may differ quite a lot from another and it would be usefull to see many of them to give better advice and see possible strengts and weaknesses. You already got some pretty good advice (I think, I'll try them next time also) like Lunatiques:

Try judging angles and curves and distances in a very scientific and rational way

It would propably help with those last ones too. How about measuring those distanges?


Just keep going. Those seconds are actually better than the first ones already.

[Lunatique]

Aerendyl - I looked at your thread at conceptart and it's very obvious that you are not being as critical with yourself as you need to be. If you are copying examples out of the Loomis book, then you should try your best to make your version look exactly like the original (as close as possible). It doesn't take another pair of eyes to see clearly that you didn't try your hardest to get things in proper proportion. you have to measure things as if you're a mathematician. Use a ruler if you have to, but your drawing must be precise. If something is too small, too big, too long, too wide, then fix it. You have to have the mentality of a perfectionist--that is the only way to obtain the necessary eye-hand coordination and observational/analytical skills. Drawing 100 bad drawings means absolutely nothing if you aren't being critical and analytical. One good drawing done with focused attention and analytical mind will beat 100 mindless drawings.

[Berax0r]

Ok, Lunatique i will from now on try my best.

[Berax0r]

Updated my sketchbook with lines and elipses - http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2538297#post2538297

My elipses aren't good. What is wrong with them?

EDIT: Ok, i decided to try another Loomis sketch and i listened to you. Here is the result - http://www.imagesforme.com/show.php/827383_IMG0527.JPG (i have big problems with the arms.) :sad: . It's a bit late, going to bed now. Good night! ;)

[Lunatique]

You ellipsis seems to lack curvature at the four segments that connect the four anchor points of the cross (the lines that divide the ellipses into four quadrants). Round those segments out more and you should have a nice ellipses. Also, you can use the marquee too (hot-key M) and set it to circular, and then drag out an ellipses over one of your failed ones and see where you are coming up short.

Your new drawing is much better on a macro level (general figure proportions), but on the micro level (facial features, general shapes of limbs, details inside the torso...etc) it's still lacking accuracy. If you applied the same mathematical accuracy on the micro level, you'll see dramatic improvement. Subdivide measuring lines if you have to, and think of it like a math problem. For example, think "the distance between the two eyes is exactly the length of one eye", or "The length of the hand is roughly about from the head's chin to the middle of the forehead" ...etc. This is how you learn to draw the figure accurately--by knowing and remember how the proportions are set and how each part relates to each other.

[Berax0r]

As always thanks on the reply. Today i will try a bigger and better sketch because this one is small (16 cm).

[drawallday]

As always thanks on the reply. Today i will try a bigger and better sketch because this one is small (16 cm).

Keep it up! Wonder how ur next sketch looks.

[Berax0r]

Lunatique i have a small problem. I started with Loomis' book "Figure drawing for all it's worth" but i got advices from other artist and non artist to better start with "Fun with pencil". Other ppl told me to watch Jacques Fresco tutorials on the youtube. Again, other ppl said that i should start with "Drawing on the right side of the brain". Also they told me to start with "Perspective made easy". Now i am lost in this books and i dunno with which one should i go and stick with it. Please can you help me? Thanks!

[Lunatique]

Aerendyl - Sorry, I didn't see your post until now.

I think you should always stick with free resources first, especially when the free ones are so damn good (like the Loomis books). Only when you think you've gotten far enough with freely available resources should you start spending money. The Loomis books are as good as any of the best available books out there today, so you're well-covered for a long time. As far as which Loomis book to start with, you should read the forward and 1st chapter of all of them and get a feel for what each is about, and then you'll automatically know which one fits your current level.

[AngelaSinner]

This thread has been really inspiring for me, I created a sketchbook as well even with the risk of being lost in the crowd. From all the drawings I do, one that is successful is rare and when that happens for the life of me I cant repeat or remember what the hell I did to make it so much better than the rest. Thanks a lot for recommending Andrew Loomis's books, I will start on them today, maybe they will help me on my quest to attain this supernatural gift (:

[Betrayal]

@AngelaSinner: there is no supernatural gift, as the title of the thread suggest, "Practice" makes perfect. Hehe, Loomis is a very valuable resource even till today and will probably be for a long long long long time.

His books with give you the guidance and technique but it all comes down to practice like anything else that you want to be good. Einstein didn't become a genius when he was born he had to go through and learn and learn.

I would also recommend the Vilppu DVD / drawing manual they are really good as well.

[Berax0r]

Aerendyl - Sorry, I didn't see your post until now.

I think you should always stick with free resources first, especially when the free ones are so damn good (like the Loomis books). Only when you think you've gotten far enough with freely available resources should you start spending money. The Loomis books are as good as any of the best available books out there today, so you're well-covered for a long time. As far as which Loomis book to start with, you should read the forward and 1st chapter of all of them and get a feel for what each is about, and then you'll automatically know which one fits your current level.

Hey Lunatique, sorry for not responding.

Thanks. I'm really busy with school so I put drawing aside until the summer. But I did make some time to do an image reverse exercise from "Drawing on the right side of the brain" book and I was amazed, everybody around me was. :)
Can't wait to start practicing again, I'll send you update when I do. :)

[Berax0r]

Hey Lunatique. Although the school is finnishing and I'm very busy, I try to find some time to draw. I won't post here images, but you can see them here - http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=174760 (new one are after the lines and elipses). Can you give any advice? Thanks! :)

[Lunatique]

Aerendyl - The main problem I see with your current progress is that you are not being as precise with your shapes as you should be. Do not let yourself off the hook--if it doesn't look right, then fix it until it's right. Ovals should look like perfect ovals. Circles should look like perfect circles. Proportions should be spot on, especially if you are visualizing them with guiding lines. I mean, that's what guiding lines are for--to get you accurate proportions.

One of the biggest problems with beginners is that they are too relaxed about the quality of their output. They allow all kinds of mistakes to remain on the page, even when they know it looks wrong. You have to be very strict with yourself--that's how you actually improve. Do not allow a single thing you can see that looks awkward or strange on the page.

Also, beginners must learn the very important technical skill that will allow them to progress further as artists. Before you even start to think about imagination or creativity or style, you must be able to copy accurately. Whether it's still life or photographs, you must be able to render exact copies that are so much like the original that people will have to really look hard to them apart. It's a mechanical and technical skill, but you must attain it because without being able to observe, analyze, and copy accurately, your work will not reach the next level because you lack the ability to critical judge proportions and values and colors...etc. I highly suggest you try to attain this basic yet important technical skill.

[Berax0r]

Thanks on your comment Lunatique. You are suggesting me to let's say draw a circle until I make it near perfect? Like, I'm drawing a house, and I draw the roof of it until is really accurate and precise? Right? If yes, can I use ereaser or do I need to draw on a new paper every time? Also, is it ok to try to copy images from google?

Thanks!

[DavidMansaray]

Hey Lunatique I have been reading your posts for some time and i think you give great advice. I want to be able to design my own characters and environments for CG. so I want to create my own concept art. I'm a huge fan of the marvel style of drawings. is it a good idea to copy drawings to get an idea of the way things should be done? will that help me in anyway? i thought that I would ask, I dont want to get into a habit that could stop me from developing my own style. what are your thoughts?

[Berax0r]

Hey Lunatique. School is over (almost, in one week have one more exam and then it's over for next 4 months. If I do well on this exam, I'll get into university, if I don't I won't, but I think that I'll be good :) ). So I decided to ask my self what do I really what with this whole drawing/art thing. Let's start from the beginning.

Through my high school time (past four years) I've been looking my self through different hobbies and things that I enjoy and that I willing to do for living. I know that most of high school guys, just don't think in this way, and all their power is concentrated on going out, drinking and having sex. In my last four years, I went maybe three or four times out, I don't drink alcohol and I had no sex.

In the meantime, I've been thinking about what should I do for living and at the same time really enjoy it. I started with clearing problems on computer (viruses, bugs...). I was so excited, and I said it: "That's it, I want to be an IT operator.". But after few months of work, I saw that the all work is kinda repeating, and there is no creativity, so I switched to signature making. You know, photoshop etc. After few months of that I said, meh, I'll be a professional gamer, then a professional writer etc. I've been switching my interest like pair of socks. Main problem I see that, I gave up really quickly, when I'm unsuccessful.

Last year, I stumbled upon 3D and VFX. I was amazed, becoming a really big fan of this kind of work. I told myself, that's it, I wanna be a 3D artist. But after some research I saw that people recommend that it's good to know how to draw before getting into this field. I was so disappointed, because I drew like a 4 year old boy. I tried to do something, but I left it. After that, I tried few more things, but drawing/3D was always in my sight.

Then it happened, I decided to go for drawing but trying it really hard after seeing that people in old age, from sticks learned how to draw really good artworks. Meanwhile, there was school, and I couldn't do it for all the time. But as I said, school is finnishing and I'm planning onto deactivating my facebook page, deleting all games from my PC, removing the PC from my room and just focusing on drawing.

Doing some sketches in the last month I came up to different suggestions, advices, opinions and other things that put me in a kind of "WTF" moment. Confused, I came here and decided today to read for few hours all post that you suggested and that you posted. After 2 hours, I decided to ask you some critical questions:

1. Let's start with learning resurces. I downloaded all Loomis' book, and some of the Gnomon DVDs. After going FAST through the Loomis' "Successful Drawing" book, I got advices to just draw from life, and for start to use line to represent the thing that I'm drawing. But I kinda feel uncomfortable and bored with drawing spoons, telephones etc. So really, should I stick with a book, and do an exercise 20 times and then move on, or should I stick with drawing pens, cups and other inhouse things? Also what about photo references? Are they good, or they harm my way to becoming a better artist?

2. Smart practice, what makes a smart practice? Is it going slow and looking at each line that I'm copying or? I want to practice smart not just to draw things and to be satisfied with them.

3. Next - tools. Do you recommend using pens or pencils? What about using ereaser when I make a wrong move, or should I then go to new paper and start over? I'll soon have an Bamboo table. Should I use it right away or should I stick for start with traditional things?

4. Here you can see my latest work (from yesterday, and few weeks ago) - http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=174760&page=2
What do you think about it?

5. Drawing place - I've been very curious if the way that I'm drawing is right. You can see my setup here - http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3342/4612224525_f919cf0b0f_o.jpg
Is this ok place to draw? Or should I buy a drawing table and draw via 45 degrees?

You will really help me if you answer onto my questions, becuase atm as I said, I'm lost in the wood of a lot advices and other things.

Also I think that your workshop is really great, but I didn't start with work yet, so I have 0$, but I'm planning to work this summer and to get some money. Part of that I'll spend on your next (not in June) workshop for sure!

I just want to practice smart and not to spin my wheel around and around. And for sure, I won't quit this time.

Thank you!

P.S. I'm aware that you can't become good artist over night, so I wanna make some right moves now, so that I don't draw for 20 years and then tell - "If I knew that earlier". :)

[Lunatique]

Thanks on your comment Lunatique. You are suggesting me to let's say draw a circle until I make it near perfect? Like, I'm drawing a house, and I draw the roof of it until is really accurate and precise? Right? If yes, can I use ereaser or do I need to draw on a new paper every time? Also, is it ok to try to copy images from google?

Thanks!

What I mean is you need to achieve accuracy no matter how you do it. In Photoshop, you can use the marquee tools or lasso or whatever. In traditional you can use French curves and rulers and whatever that helps. If it's organic stuff like creatures, people, landscape, you still have to make sure that proportions are accurate--no giant heads on small bodies, lopsided facial features, legs that are far too short...etc. Be careful with observation, analyzation, and comparison.

Hey Lunatique I have been reading your posts for some time and i think you give great advice. I want to be able to design my own characters and environments for CG. so I want to create my own concept art. I'm a huge fan of the marvel style of drawings. is it a good idea to copy drawings to get an idea of the way things should be done? will that help me in anyway? i thought that I would ask, I dont want to get into a habit that could stop me from developing my own style. what are your thoughts?

You first need to separate drawing skill, artistic knowledge, and creative design. They are three totally separate things. Drawing skill is the actual technical and mechanical skill of wielding a drawing/painting tool--how you control pen pressure, pen tilt, how you customize your brushes to fit your needs, how to use the right brush tip for shading, for clean edges, for textures, for expressive line weights...etc. Artistic knowledge is your understanding of the foundational theories like composition, values/lighting, color theory, anatomy/figure...etc. Creative design is your ability to come up with interesting visual design--be it a cool looking futuristic MP3 player, a spaceship, a restaurant, a military compound, battle armor, weapons...etc, and not only do they look great, they are also functional (at least visually they make sense). There's also a fourth factor, and that is visual storytelling--the narrative. But that's a whole different topic and not all artists are interesting in telling visual stories, expressing their emotions, or making socio-political statements.

When you copy drawings out of Marvel comics, what are you really learning? You might be learning how a particular artist chooses to stylize people, or the line weight of the inker, or maybe how some artists go about layout out the panels on a page, or maybe even learn some perspective, but if you are looking to learn originality in creative design from copying, then you're kind of going about it wrong. What you can do is simply observe and analyze. Look at how the costumes are designed, or how the fictional aspects of architecture, interior, vehicles, weapons...etc are designed. Also analyze these things in real life--everything from buildings, handbags, cars, radio clocks, headphones, airplanes, boats, fashion, watches, hairstyles...etc. Learn to see and understand why they are designed the way they are--very often good designs are not only nice to look at, they are also ergonomic, efficient, comfortable, and very clever. How you combine usability with visual design is the key to great concept art. Even with creature design, you have to think about this fictional creatures anatomy structure, so it can actually run, jump, crawl, fly...etc. For example, you do not design a creature that warriors ride on for long journeys with very short legs and stubby body, because such a creature cannot travel far and cannot run fast.

While all this stuff may seem like common sense, the problem is, most beginners don't understand how to apply common sense to art and design--they think it's some big mysterious magical voodoo thing that you have to be talented to understand. You can learn just about anything if you simply break all the elements down into simple common sense. :)

[Lunatique]

1. Let's start with learning resurces. I downloaded all Loomis' book, and some of the Gnomon DVDs. After going FAST through the Loomis' "Successful Drawing" book, I got advices to just draw from life, and for start to use line to represent the thing that I'm drawing. But I kinda feel uncomfortable and bored with drawing spoons, telephones etc. So really, should I stick with a book, and do an exercise 20 times and then move on, or should I stick with drawing pens, cups and other inhouse things? Also what about photo references? Are they good, or they harm my way to becoming a better artist?

All of that practice won't make any difference if you aren't being strict with yourself on the accuracy of your drawings. 500 sloppy and inaccurate drawings at the end of the day teaches you nothing, but one careful and accurate drawing will teach you far more. Did you see the thread where Edward posted his Lucy Liu image, and I showed the kind of stuff he was drawing before he took the workshop? That's the difference I'm talking about. That's what accuracy means. I strongly suggest you try the same exercise--pick a photo and then just proceed to get as close to a convincing copy as you can. Learn to observe, analyze, compare distances, sizes, angles, curves, spaces, values, edges, surface property (rough vs. smooth, shiny vs. matte). Photos are easier than still life, and I think once you have successfully copied a photo to a high degree of accuracy (at least as well as what Edward did), then you can try doing a still life. Don't attempt drawing people or animals from life yet as a beginner because it'll only frustrate you. That's more something you attempt when you reach intermediate level.

As for lines or full values, it's possible to tackle both at the same time--that's exactly what Edward did with his Lucy Liu iimage.

2. Smart practice, what makes a smart practice? Is it going slow and looking at each line that I'm copying or? I want to practice smart not just to draw things and to be satisfied with them.

Being smart simply means using your observational and analytical mind instead of just going through the motions without asking yourself why about everything. You have to ask yourself what you want to learn from each practice you do--set goals and then find ways to achieve them. Target your weaknesses. Demystify things that confuse you. And so on.

3. Next - tools. Do you recommend using pens or pencils? What about using ereaser when I make a wrong move, or should I then go to new paper and start over? I'll soon have an Bamboo table. Should I use it right away or should I stick for start with traditional things?

Use whatever works. Digital is perfectly fine, and in fact it's far more flexible and convenient. I would recommend you sketch in a sketchbook when away from the computer, and when at the computer, use your tablet. I don't know why you think erasers are bad--it's no different from the undo button.

4. Here you can see my latest work (from yesterday, and few weeks ago) - http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=174760&page=2
What do you think about it?

I think I already told you what I thought in a previous post? Unless you suddenly and miraculous advanced in one giant leap, what I'll tell you won't be any different.


5. Drawing place - I've been very curious if the way that I'm drawing is right. You can see my setup here - http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3342/4612224525_f919cf0b0f_o.jpg
Is this ok place to draw? Or should I buy a drawing table and draw via 45 degrees?

A slanted drawing surface is good because then there won't be any perspective distortion (the side of the paper closer to you is wider/bigger and the side further away is narrower/smaller). If you draw on a flat table, then you'd have to put your head directly above and paper and that's just bad posture for your back and neck.

You usually light your still life from a 3/4 angle or maybe from the side, and it's not a good idea to light from the top because the form and cast shadows won't be as interesting or distinct.

Also I think that your workshop is really great, but I didn't start with work yet, so I have 0$, but I'm planning to work this summer and to get some money. Part of that I'll spend on your next (not in June) workshop for sure!

Because I know there are people like you, who would have to save up for a workshop, or have a busy schedule with school or work, I'm going to try to repeat the workshop as often as I can, so that no one will miss out on the experience.

A few students received the workshop as a gift from their significant others or parents as birthday gifts, and some treated themselves to this workshop as a gift instead of buying something else they wanted.

I can tell you right now that eight weeks of my workshop will accelerate your understanding and skills years ahead of where you'd be fumbling with on your own. You've probably read the testimonials from the students of my last workshop, so you know how they feel about what the workshop did for them, and how hard I worked at making sure they learned as much as they possibly could. I can say with absolute certainty that in the history of CGWorkshop, no other instructor has ever worked as hard as I did, and I'm not saying this to devalue the work of other instructors, as some of them are awesome artists and wonderful teachers--it's simply that I AM INSANE. That's it. Pure and simple. I spent close to a year and a half just preparing the course material, and I often put in 8~12 hours a day answering questions, critiquing homework, and painting/writing new lesson examples to elaborate on specific points the students might still be a little confused about. I give a damn if my students really learn and excel, and I push them hard to be better than they were the day before. Every creative idea they come up with, every single line they draw, every single brushstroke they lay down--I push everyone to execute them to the best of their ability and then some. Everyone will get their asses kicked in one way or another by some of the assignments, but that's how the assignments are designed--to push you to your limits and then as the result make you into a better artist.

[Berax0r]

Thanks on your post Robert, you helped me a lot.

Ok, I'll then do few images drawings in the next few days, thinking about right lines, values and other important things.

Btw, today my boss called me and he told me that I got the job and that I'm starting at June, 1st. So I started to talk with my mum about giving me 550$ in advance, and then I'll return them to her when I got my payment, and she told me that we'll discuss that tommorow. So there is a chance that I'll apply for your workshop, yea! :)

P.S. I can borrow a tablet from my friend, but I never worked with it, is that ok?

Btw - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6A6pMO_WKM&feature=fvst :)

[Berax0r]

Need again your advice Robert.

So I'm trying not to draw on a flat surface but on a 35-45 degree angle. This is how it looks like:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4063/4640175682_21d8c1ceb4_o.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4049/4639568073_37f6650059_o.jpg

And I'm feeling that I'm doing it wrong. :( My hand in 5 min starts to hurt me, and then I can draw with my fingers only. Also rotating the book and the paper is kinda hard too, need to do it all the time. Can you recommend me what to do? ATM I don't have money to buy a drawing table, but I'm able to do a home improvisation. Can you tell me what to do, or this is the right way and I need only to keep with it?

Thanks! :)

[Lunatique]

Why do you have your right elbow elevated so high? Why not just let your elbow drop down naturally?

When you draw longer lines and larger shapes, you are actually moving your arm from the elbow and shoulder. For smaller lines and shapes, you are then moving from your wrist. You also seem to be gripping your pen kind of strange, with your thumb placed under the index finger? And don't grip your pen too hard--that is unnecessary and will only make your fingers hurt. Grip your pen loosely.

Try not to have such drastic cast shadows on your drawing surface--you want to place your drawing surface/light source in such a way so that you get a nice and evenly lit surface to work on.

[Berax0r]

I thought that it needs to be so high to get used to draw with whole hand, but you have right, when I put it on the book, it feels fine. :)

Also I don't grip a pen in that way, it was only for photo shooting. :)

And I will start to use the whole room light, when drawing.

Thanks Robert. Tommorow I have my final exam and I'm getting the tablet. Wohoo! :)

[Berax0r]

Got the tablet yesterday, but again have beginner's question. Should I focus on drawing with the tablet or with the pencil + paper? I'm reading now Loomis and I dunno if I should do some practice in the PS, or on the paper. Going to do it now on the paper, but please advice me for tommorow.

Thanks!

[Lunatique]

I think since the tablet will take more time to get the hang of, it's a good idea to spend more time with it so it feels more intuitive. Ideally, you want your tablet experience to be very close to your pen/paper experience, and while the tablet will never be as intuitive, with practice you can be very expressive with it.

In some ways, I tend to feel that it's easier for those who works mainly with tablets to get very comfortable with pen/paper right away, but not necessarily true the other way around.

[Berax0r]

Thanks Robert, I'll stick with the tablet then.

School is over so now I have more time for drawing, yay! :)

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4016/4651824513_63e095cd45_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4002/4651824091_84fbd9018d_b.jpg

[Berax0r]

I've been reading "Perspective made easy" whole day, but I still didn't find the answer. I understand that I can put anything in a box, and that there are one, two, or three VP, depending on the item or things that I draw.

But I don't know few things. How to start the drawing in the perspective? I put the tablet (or a box) in front of me and I try to draw it. I see where is my eye-level but how to put it on the paper, and then draw the tablet on the same spot as I see it? How to measure this distance between my eye-level and the tablet? And after I have done this, do I draw the box and then extend the parallel lines to get the VP, or the other way?

Thanks,

Mladen

[Lunatique]

Class is going to start soon, and the second week will answer pretty much all of your questions about perspective, establishing the vanish points, focal lengths, camera angles, and also the composition. The answer is a bit involved so be patient--I promise you'll find the answers soon.

[Berax0r]

Ok Robert, thank you. I can't wait to start with the workshop! :)

[Berax0r]

Have a new one. Drawing from life vs. drawing from a reference photo. Can you tell me cons and pros for each? I see a lot of people telling that the drawing from a photo is easy as cake, and it should be avoided. Can you tell me is that true? Should I avoid photo references?

Thanks. :)

[Berax0r]

I'm still interested in that question.

Also, drawing with a tablet is harder than I expected. What should I draw with it? I feel much more confortable with pencil and paper when drawing Loomis' male and female proportions etc. Any suggestions?

Thanks!

[Lunatique]

All of your questions are answered in mind-boggling detail in the workshop, so I think you should relax a little since class will start in a week, and once it does, you'll be scrambling just to keep up because there's so much information that you'll be left astounded every week and simply trying to soak it all in.

But for the benefit of others who might read this thread, I'll give a more simplified answer here.

Basically, you need both. Working from life is not always possible logistically, so photo references can really help when you don't have the resources to work from life. But when working from photos, you must understand how photography can distort reality by ways of lens distortion, lack of dynamic range, improper white balance, misrepresentation of context, and so on. If you are not aware of those issues and blindly follow photo references, then you are just working from them mindlessly. I talk about all these issues in detail in the workshop.

Working from life is the ultimate challenge and the most fun and fulfilling, but like I said, it's not always possible logistically. If you do have access to necessary resources, then definitely work from life as often as you can; HOWEVER, I do not recommend it to total beginners, as they have no idea what the hell they're looking at or trying to learn from each life session. I think beginners should do a good amount of anatomy/figure studies from books and photo references first, so they have a decent idea of what's going on with the human body (especially their observational, analytical, and technical skills have been sharpened enough) and then tackle working from life, which would then provide a lot additional insights and interesting "aha!" moments. If beginners try to work from life too early, they'll just get frustrated and they'll just be spinning their wheels anyway.

As for analog or digital drawing tools, you're pretty much going to suck on either as a beginner since your eye-to-hand coordination and muscle memory are not developed yet. Analog would feel more intuitive because you've been writing and doodling with analog tools all your life--that's a lifetime of practice. Tablet might feel a lot less expressive at first, but you have to stick with it because you need to recalibrate your eye-to-hand coordination and muscle memory for this new tool, and it takes time. If you don't do it, you'll only take longer to recalibrate those parameters. The longer you put it off, the longer it'll take you to learn how to use the tablet effectively.

Personally, I've been 100% digital for years now. While I have very fond memories of working traditionally with analog tools (I was a traditional artist for far longer than I ever was a digital artist), digital is just much more flexible and convenient. I tend to feel that if someone is starting out today, learning digitally right off the bat will speed up the learning/growing process significantly compared to learning with analog tools, simply because mistakes are far easier to fix and experimentation could be done without any fear of "messing" up because there's always undo and layers and saving in iterations. The great thing is, what you learn digitally translate to analog tools very well, and vice versa. To me, the two are pretty much interchangeable since the principles are almost identical except for a few things.

[Berax0r]

Thanks Robert.

I can't wait for workshop. I really have a lot of questions, but when I ask them on other forums, noone is responding to me. :(

For now I'll do figure from Loomis. :)

[Berax0r]

Robert, will the 10-30 sec sketches from real life people help me? Here's the original post from AlexTooth (ImagineFX forum):

Yeah I'd say draw, draw, draw, it's a simple an effective formula!

Always stuff to draw at a parking lot, draw 10sec-30sec gesture drawings of people, walking, chatting or whatever - real fast stuff - don't worry about showing us if it looks crap, cos it probably will, mine did - it's good practice for quickly recording stuff!

If there's a lack of people, draw cars, trees, buildings or whatever - I really can't believe there's not much to draw there, its probably infinitely more interesting than drawing from a book! Especially if there's people to draw.

When you can draw something consistently with a good likeness, then I'd say it's time to move up to the next level.

Draw stuff form imagination too if you find studying gets dull or whatever.

Just remember this stuff takes a long long time, so be patient, stay determined and you'll get there.

What do you say?

Thanks.

[Lunatique]

Like I already said, for beginners, drawing from life is likely too much of a challenge, since most beginners can't even achieve decent accuracy or likeness when working from image references. I would suggest beginners first acquire solid technical skills in observation, analysis, accuracy, eye-hand coordination, muscle memory...etc by working from anatomy/figure books, photo references...etc, and then move on to doing still life, and then later tackle drawing people from life, as that is by far the hardest thing to do, even for advanced artists. There are plenty of book on variety of poses that could be used to practice drawing quick gestures, and the images in the books don't move. At least practice that for a while before you attempt to do gestures in real life.

All of this stuff is covered in detail in the workshop, and since class will start in just a few days, why don't you just trust in the workshop and let it answer all of your questions? There is so much you need to learn before any of this stuff, so I think you need to dial it back a little and first try to survive the workshop. I promise you'll have all the answers you've ever wanted by the end of the workshop, plus a ton of stuff you never even thought of or heard of before but are extremely critical to your growth as an artist. Your world will never be the same again by the time the workshop is over, and you'll be asking very different questions by then.

[Berax0r]

Ok Robert, now I'll just wait for your workshop, and be patient. ;)

[Choucete]

Reading this great thread really motivated me, so I went ahead and started my own newbie thread at conceptart.org. I'd really appreciate it if you guys take a look at it.

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2772317#post2772317

[cgaddictworld]

Practice does make perfect, especially if you do so daily. While it can be argued that certain 3D programs help you, they should be used as something to speed up your time - not something you should be a slave to. The less crutches an artist has, the better he/she will be.

[adoredesign]

Does practicing really make perfect?


?
I belive practicing makes perfect but i also belive that helping others will make you improve yourself better since you are sharing your knowledge to someone wich gives you joy and while you learn someone else you find different ways to archive your goal.

I studied Rhinoceros 4.0 in school for 3 years and since i loved it so much i worked with it at home and therefor i got better than my friends so i helped them when the teachers couldnt and they showed me different ways to complete things in the program so i learned from that.
also the third year of school we had an internship and mine was at a goldsmith, she tought me making jewllery in silver and i tought her the program. That also improved myself since i had to think how i should make jewllery instead of furnitures.
so share knowledge and get new back :D

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