Arg! Don't you just wish you were good at more than one thing...

[DigitalBlaspheme]

I like the first pic better. It looks like I'm waiting to hear some important, mysterious secret. the second looks like I'm about to be begged for a dollar. I like the face, I think the highlight on the nose is a bit strong, either that or the highlights on the rest of the face aren't strong enough. Looks like she's got that creme on her nose the life gaurds use on thiers. Other than that I see nothing that pokes me in the eye and says....hey....I'm wrong, but then again...I do suck at painting.

[asongforOphelia]

Hahaha, well the reference for this image did, actually, ask me for a dollar after I took her picture. Or a pen. I can't remember.

[GravidEngine]

Yeah, first one. You could work on the piece's saturation to help bring focus to the face and just look more dynamic in general.

Yeah... the highlight on the nose is very distracting... I also think that the nosed looks a bit pinched. It looks like the end of the nose could be a bit wider which would reduce the size of the nostrils and look a bit more balanced for the nose

The lighting doesn't seem to really match between the face, the cloth, and the background
The cloth looks like it has a lighting direction wheras the face looks rather diffuse

The hair ornaments seem to stick out a bit much... I would say to desaturate them or darken them or lighten and saturate other parts of the piece

[asongforOphelia]

Thanks man--I really appreciate it. This painting is totally driving me mad, but I'll take a look at your suggestions and see if I can resurrect it.

[LORDvesalius]

Yeah, the first one, i agree.
I like the face, is very expressive,

And yeah, i agree with Gravid, there's something wrong with the lighting, as if each object is lit by a completely different lightsource... the forehead has a sharp and defined shadow, but the rest has very soft shadows, or no shadows at all... and from different directions. Also the beads in the hair are maybe too bright while the rest is dimly lit, and distracts from the expression of the face.
The prerspective of the beads is strange also, like viewd from a different angle
Maybe using some reference of drapperies lit from above may help.

I hope this may help you,

[CybrGfx]

The fact that she has no shoulders or arms in either one is distracting...

Of worse effect to me, though, are her eyes. You have them looking up at some really wonky, angled outwards angle...Which, oddly enough, is echoed by the weird upper torso shape you painted in the second image...like an inverted triangle...Be aware of this tendency in your work, unless it is a deliberate thing on your part, at which point you already know about it.

The too dark values are a poor way to compensate for lack of technical skill. Bring up the overall brightness and get your rendering straight. THEN tone down the work for "atmosphere..."

~C

[asongforOphelia]

Thanks guys--I must appologize for making excuses, but the "too dark" problem is a monitor issue and I don't think I can fix it. Unfortunately, I have a serious problem with the brightness on my monitor, and I'm looking into getting a new one, but until then I have a problem with color.

I'll try to do something about the lighting. It is a big weakness of mine and I don't really know how to correct it. Do you have any suggestions for "how to's" on that subject?

[asongforOphelia]

Okay, here is the next image.. I haven't worked on it TOO much, but I played around with it. I'd been working on the other version a lot. I'm trying to tone down the nose highlight, but I also posted the image that I'm drawing from (badly, I'd say), to prove that the super bright nose came from *somewhere*.

http://www.kagaipalace.com/Stages/rebekkah7.jpg

http://www.kagaipalace.com/Stages/rebekkah7_ref.jpg

[CybrGfx]

Look closer at your ref, and please fix those Marty Feldman eyes. The irises are too small, and you have them angled outward.

If you have monitor problems, I wouldn't make compositions with dark backgrounds...

Try this article (http://www.warpedspace.org/lightingT/part1.htm) and this article (http://www.itchy-animation.co.uk/light.htm) to learn a bit more about effective lighting.

~C

[asongforOphelia]

Those what eyes?
I'll take a look at those suggestions.

[asongforOphelia]

Working on the eyes, the face... Trying to fix things. I am still totally stuck on this lighting thing.

http://www.kagaipalace.com/Stages/rebekkah9.jpg

[CybrGfx]

Those what eyes?
I'll take a look at those suggestions.Marty Feldman eyes. Famous actor.
http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/3323117.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=86F19F6C94FCC84FF5F14A380C7BF8B7A55A1E4F32AD3138

[asongforOphelia]

Haha, right, I guess I live under a rock. I don't know what that means, but I've been trying to get her eyes more even, as shown above. How does she look now?

I also don't really know what to do about the shoulder/arm situation, as the reference photo doesn't seem to have that either. Suggestions?

Another thing--taking a look at this on my computer at work, with a gorgeous new ViewSonic, I see what you mean about the POW-nose. I'll try to do something about it. I'm shopping for monitors now, I guess, but until I get a new one I don't really know how to fix the lighting problems.

[CybrGfx]

The eyes look much more natural and aligned now.

I am trying to find a lighting tutorial to help you, many of my links are now broken...
Basically, you need to
1. Determine what and where the light is coming from,
2. Imagine lines of light radiating out from that source and striking your subject from the appropriate direction and angle (some people draw them out on a separate layer to refer back to)
3. Consistently highlight those areas of the subject, where the light rays would be striking.

The shoulder/arm situation is one of proportion rendering of proper anatomy. Your shoulder widths should each be 3/4 - 1 full head width from the sides of the neck.

~C

[CybrGfx]

It's always a pity when good links become obsolete, sometimes the knowledge is no longer available...

This link (http://newberryworkshop.com/Tutorial/innolight/innolight.html) is to a good general lighting article, although not the one I wanted to share.
It does touch on the considerations of consistency, and intensity, though, so I think you will get some value from it.

Lighting can make or break the best of paintings.
Hope this helps you some.

~C

[asongforOphelia]

Thanks so much. I've taken a look at the links you've given me, and I am learning from them, but I think it might be too late for this particular painting... I'm fiddling around with it and will post the results soon. I went and purchased a new monitor, a 19in LG widescreen which I think will have a huge impact on my color and contrast. I checked the contrast ratio on the old monitor.... I upgraded from 250:1 to 10,000:1!!

When I'm more comfortable with the edits I'm doing on the painting, I will post it... I'll also do a few minor projects to work with this lighting stuff.

[RebeccaSx]

Wow, that is looking beautiful. I'd have to say that is going to be an AWESOME pic, with the material on her head going down the side of her face, she looks very exotique. Lovely skin btw!! What kind of texture is the material going to have, is is soft, light and silky or e heavier canvasy material? This would affect the way it drapes on her.

[asongforOphelia]

Okay... I guess I'm kind of frustrated with this, and I want to put it on hold for a while--but here is what's been going on so far. The new color balance/contrast is making it difficult for me to know what to do with it.

I think I definitely need to take a step back and really think about the texture of the fabric, as I definitely just... didn't think about that. I just went with it. But I suppose a head scarf would have to be pretty thin so that it didn't slip off from its own weight.

http://www.kagaipalace.com/Stages/rebekkah10.jpg

Here is something that I'm trying to keep my "artsyness" going with, while I twiddle my thumbs on this painting... I'm also working on a new layout for my website, but I'll post that I guess when I get done with it.

http://www.kagaipalace.com/Stages/sillouettes.jpg

[asongforOphelia]

New update on the image... In an attempt to hide my bad cloth skills, I just put embroidery on it. Oh, I am such a cheater! ^.~

http://www.kagaipalace.com/Stages/rebekkah11.jpg

As far as lighting goes... I'm approaching it the wrong way, I think. I see things as individual pieces. But I'm trying.

Haven't been painting much, because I've been redesigning my webpage... It's good fun, full of design-type art. But it takes chunks out of my painting. That and, you know.. my job. And my honors thesis. Nng. If anybody wants to know anything about the matriarchs of Islam... you just let me know.

[CybrGfx]

You still need to disguise the uneven lighting of the scarf. That one fold surrounding her face is so prominently highlighed, especially along the LH side of your canvas, it looks tubular, as if she is hiding a length of hose, or a snake in there...

Your lighting is still too inconsistent, and no amount of embroidery will cover it.
You have a strong light shining from the upper RH side, which reflects brightly off the gold beads and the hidden tube snake in her scarf, yet it barely glances off the tip of her nose, and her bottom lip...Skin is much more reflective than fabric. Also, by making the beads and braids so emphasized, they are now "floating" in front of her face AND the scarf. Especially the far most RH side of the canvas.

Here is a very rough paintover in Photoshop to give you a better idea of lighting. I also adjusted her features a bit, to better fit "accepted" norms of the head being approximately 5 eye-widths, with one eyewidth apart, and the mouth extending from iris to iris.

Even so, I missed highlighting the face properly, but was more concerned that you see the overall lighting, not just the edges of the things.

Rather than "objects," you need to start seeing things as shapes, and then break those shapes down further for detailing.

Hope this helps you some.
~C

[asongforOphelia]

Thanks. That's very helpful. I learn a lot better visually than through words. Now I see what you're trying to say. I'd have to say that the size of her eyes really unnerves me, though.

I definitely see what you mean about the tubular fold. I'm trying to fix that and make it look a little bit more natural, but I'm not quite comfortable with the results yet, so I won't post it.

So does the embroidery add or detract from the overall composition (lighting aside)? Does it distract, or is it a good detail that is worth keeping?

[CybrGfx]

Don't worry, my PO eyes bother me too...lol! It's only an example to make you think a little more about what YOU want to convey with your piece. It was only because her eyes are so far apart once the RH side was lightened...

I think the color bits liven up the scarf (and the overall piece) very nicely, lighting aside. They provide some cool tones to offset all the reds, and break up the scarf as a shape, making it more dynamic, which this piece needs.

Glad I was able to give you a couple helpful suggestions.

~C

[asongforOphelia]

Okay thanks. I'll work for a while and then bring this back.

[JakubFromOz]

I looked though your WIP and thats going really well wow good work :D
If you keep pushing your lights and shadows it will make it more and more effective i think. :D
The fabric and little jewelry beads in the hair do it for me :D Very nice designo!

[asongforOphelia]

http://www.kagaipalace.com/Stages/rebekkah12.jpg

Okay so I applied what you said on a couple of layers above the main painting. I'd say she looks better, as far as I can tell... but there are a few things I'm concerned about now. She's missing some of the nuances of her face--like those furrowed brows. I couldn't add them back in without it looking mucho ridiculous, but I'll work on that. In my opinion, she also looks a lot older now.

The embroidery is hiding currently because I'm screwing around with the actual fabric. Does it look more convincing, or was the tube-shape not so bad?

Anyways I think overall it looks better, but I still need to get the details of her eyes back. Suggestions?

[CybrGfx]

Showing improvement, but yes, you are correct on the fabric drapery and the expression.

You really, truly, need to wrap some fabric around your head and look in a mirror. Or talk a friend into being a model stand-in, so you can observe with your own eyes the way fabric falls. This poor woman looks like she is under the control of a scarf that has a life and a mind of it's own. First it draped around her like an anaconda, threatening to constrict and kill her, now it's taken on a harder, more rigid effect, with a corner that could be a storage pocket, that looks like it is held in place and shape somehow by her underarm...You are still trying to paint that scarf as something other than fabric. If you insist on not using a reference (you could just drape a sheet around a chair with a pillow standing in for the body), at least try to imagine how fabric drapes. Fabric does not make hard, pointy, directional changes. Unless you add a brooch, and then you start getting into the dreaded whirlpool of start adding stuff, and hope it helps. Always try to avoid doing that. Always try to simplify first, and add the visual gee-gaws as accents, not camoflage. The embroidery on the scarf works in that respect. It makes a good accent.

I can visually accept the way the fabric looks on top of her head, similar to this (http://www.orlok.com/cyberbil/pearl2/graphics/vasroda.jpg). But the bottom just does not drape the way my eye expects to see it, like this (http://www.pierotucci.com/data/imgprodotto/6354_zoom.jpg), or this (http://www.radico.com/pcat-gifs/products-small/wss-003s.jpg), or this (http://lh6.ggpht.com/_m_vjNT5tQUc/R7mZGqlyoxI/AAAAAAAAAZI/AQGpS8z6Vdg/Chalina+con+modelo.jpg).

One of the hardest things (after thinking) for an artist, is to render things as they actually are, not as "symbols" of how we all imagine them to be. Eyes are a good example. Beginners draw them as circles or almond shapes, with irises in the middle. More aware artists render them as spherical shapes set into sockets in the skull. the shape is more accurate, and there is value shading to give them depth on the face, and a spherical shape beneath the eyelids...Your face is looking better, but that scarf is still a symbol, and is not visually believable...

But you're working on it, and if nothing else, you've learned a bit more about lighting, so it's all good.

Although it's a working layer, be aware that those soft edged brushes are not your friend. That scarf looks like mohair, presently.

While she looks older now, that's because your anatomy is catching up with you once you are using more correct lighting. Poor lighting covers a multitude of sins, it just doesn't negate them. Anyone who looks closely will see them, and most artists want people to look closely at their works...

The furrowed brows are no big deal if your anatomy is correct for the age you are striving for. Depending on her age, you would make adjustments to the shape of the skull, and the placement of the features upon it. Again, this is where you need to know more about what you are rendering, rather than what you think you see.
~C

[Kirt]

I think the part of her head dress that is hanging down along her face on the left is just too bright. It is making this part jump to the foreground as if it is in front of her face and detached from the wrap around her skull. I've done a quick paintover for you (hope you don't mind) where I've darkened the piece and other parts of cloth that I think should be in shadow. This really puts the emphasis back on the character's face.

Notice that I've also removed some of the towers in the background and desaturated them. They were too dark and competing for space with the foreground elements. The towers in the center just looked odd coming out of her head. You could probably put them back in the image but I think it looks better without.

And a last point, the fabric on the head should really curve with the contour of the skull. The banded tubes that you had looked more like a certain hat made famous by the band Devo in the 1980s.

You could probably even improve upon this more by drawing a few of her braids in front of the draping cloth on the left. This will put that piece behind her visually and give it more depth.

[asongforOphelia]

You guys are great for working so closely with me. I've never gotten this kind of attention on my work, and it's really great.

This is a really rough version of the new idea:
http://www.kagaipalace.com/Stages/rebekkah13.jpg

Kirt, I totally ignored what you said about the towers, and put more detail on them... I'll work later with how to blend them in; I do agree that they look silly coming out of her head there, so I'll take a look at it when I'm not so focused on her drapery.

Cyber, I did what you recommended and tied a piece of cloth around my head. I honestly hadn't even thought of that and I can't tell you why. So I revamped the cloth considerably. I'm still having trouble with the flow of it, but I think with more work it should come together.

School started this week so I'm more than a little swamped with my thesis, my TA position, the group that I'm running... and trying to get registered for it all. Hopefully I'll find enough time to paint amidst that, but... I'm sure you know how it is.

[CybrGfx]

The cloth looks SO much better! Congratulations!

Good luck with all the academia. Take care of business first, this piece will be here when you get back to it!

~C

[Kirt]

Very nice indeed. I think you've got it now. Good job!

[asongforOphelia]

Alright guys, I added in some new embroidery, and... well sat and stared at it for a really long time. I think it's basically finished, but don't let that stop you from adding more crit. Since you guys were helping me out so much, I didn't want to go ahead and post it as "finished" yet.

This particular character is from a story that's brewing in my head, after my semester in Accra. She is a "ghost child" who was born by sorcery from a woman who was already dead. The world she lives in is dominated by a war between the god of the sun and the goddess of the moon, and people like her--who walk a fine line of "mortal" and "already dead"--are usually forced to join in the war as traffickers of lives. For all of the lives of mortal men, these wars have raged, and the gods "harvest" mass quantities of mortal men for their armies--using their souls, not their bodies, as slaves to their heavenly armies.

Societies everywhere have grown up around the trade of human souls. Entire governments rest on their commitments to the god's "Counselors" who reside in the cities, and tally the amount of souls brought to them. Among the greatest of kingdoms build on this trade, is Nkros--the dark city in the background of this image. (I never was a painter of cities... but I wish, oh I wish.)

Anyways, sorry for the long explanation, but I guess you can see now where this image comes from... who she is and what she does. This all blew up out of a short story I wrote and just finished a week or so ago, about Rebekkah's journey through the City of Dreams, which is the universal "coming of age" journey for children born like her.

.... So here is the version of the image that I consider final!

http://www.kagaipalace.com/Stages/rebekkah_final.jpg

[CybrGfx]

This looks very nice.

The only thing I see, is one eye looks closer to the nose than the other. Could be an optical illusion.

The text is unreadable with the mottling. If you have to have text, make it readable, or don't bother. There is no in-between. It can be a subtle blending color, but it will still be a visual element, and you need to just accept it as the price you pay in the name of legibility.

Beyond that, I'd call this "Finished," and well done!

~C

[asongforOphelia]

Sweet! Thanks.

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