How would u embrace real nurbs Surfaces, or Hierarchical Subds like in Maya?

[ThirdEye]

I'd like to have both but i don't think i'll see em soon :hmm:

[Creature]

I'm still eagerly waiting for patching Splines to Objects

[ThirdEye]

And i think you won't see that soon too :hmm:

[Creature]

So lets all sit together in a cycle an pray for R9 :D

[pit]

:cool: :cool: :cool:
Agree with ThirdEye - no time soon!
:cool: :cool: :cool:

[DELTAadmin]

Some isopharm insertion fake with posemixer, but not really impressive

[AdamT]

I'd like to have'em too, but it's not on top of my list.

[lllab]

well for me it is on top list,

although i am not shure we will see this in nearer future in cinema. think this is too hard to implement and make work together with all other parts of the sdk.

at the moment the only solution is to buy formz, rhino, alias or maya to have all superb nurbs and subdivision modelling.

cinema has very good parts, i think. but it needed good rounding tools, nurbs, subd's...the future will show.

we model most things in other apps and then animate and render them in cinema ( here cinema is the best)

some things are great to modell in cinema though, its construction history and weighting tools(hypernurbs) are superb, and with add-ons like ditools and jenna you can do things that are not possible in other apps...

cheers

stefan

[flingster]

this thread reminded me of something...remember we all contributed to what we wanted next from maxon and it was submitted to the betatesters....did we ever get an official response from Maxon to this????? If not why not?
:bounce: :bounce:

just a personal rant...but I would like to know how it went down.

(thirdeye_01, adamt, srek anybody know what happened?)
:eek:

[AdamT]

Originally posted by flingster
this thread reminded me of something...remember we all contributed to what we wanted next from maxon and it was submitted to the betatesters....did we ever get an official response from Maxon to this????? If not why not?
:bounce: :bounce:

just a personal rant...but I would like to know how it went down.

(thirdeye_01, adamt, srek anybody know what happened?)
:eek:

ThirdEye submitted the list to Maxon, so they have seen it. That's what was supposed to happen, so I think it was worthwhile. As far as Maxon responding on a point-by-point basis--I wouldn't hold my breath. :)

[LucentDreams]

the list has beewn seen by maxon and most testers, some features have been idividually discussed, many features have been requested before and such but as for maxon discussing weach in the public forums, not likely. you can see some things like the things regarding phong came out in 8.1, so its all a matter of time.

[JIII]

Yeah I remember adam was about to jump off a bridge over the phong shading issue. luckily 8.1 suprised everyone and they fixed it.

[dmthurman]

as someone that has been working with rhino 3.0 beta infinity, doing nurbs from a programing perspective has got to be much harder than polygon modeling. There are so many bug fixes that McNeel has gone through it's a bit mind boggling.. I don't think we are ever going to see cinema be a nurbs modeler, but that's fine by me. I just wish it would handle importing splines better other than having to bring them in with dxf, but what the heck it's a nice little program already...
D.T.

[LucentDreams]

trust me dmthurman thats not just the life of testing nurbs. man you sohuld see test renders of DOF, everything has a million bugs you just don't know how many cause most get fixed.

[DELTAadmin]

I did not think my thread could cause such a great turmoil.
But it is profitable for us if Maxon listens, and I know that Maxon listens to our responses or complaints.

Yeah, I think even after seeing its week points Cinema 4D is the best 3D app ever.

Ever tryed to do something in an other app?? How wrestling it is compared to Cinema's own style of making things.

I hope they can implement superb NURBS and SUBD tools, I hope they will bring perfect UV mapping, I hope there will be scene linking, I hope we can find saveable animation clips etc...

[LucentDreams]

Turmoil? not just realism, w'ed all like to see those things, but you have to be realistic and look at what it wakes to develop those things.

[ThirdEye]

There are simply other priorities atm, nothing else. :shrug:

[flingster]

thanks guys.
it wasn't that i wanted a point per point discussion or evaluation from maxon about the document third_eye submitted. I just feel it would have been in maxons and its users interest if they came out with an "official" statement about it. IMHO and no doubt many may disagree with me but by simply disregarding it in this way is arrogant, a simple acknowledgement of the fact maxon loves working with its users and appreciates any efforts by its users to improve its software would suffice. To simply take the document discuss it etc and not provide any official response, acknowledgement is insulting to the time and effort people put in (ie thirdeye), they may not agree with it 100% and still go there own way all of which i would have more respect for.

rant over...you can get back to flaming me if you like.
:shame: :shame:

[ThirdEye]

Originally posted by flingster
thanks guys.
it wasn't that i wanted a point per point discussion or evaluation from maxon about the document third_eye submitted. I just feel it would have been in maxons and its users interest if they came out with an "official" statement about it. IMHO and no doubt many may disagree with me but by simply disregarding it in this way is arrogant, a simple acknowledgement of the fact maxon loves working with its users and appreciates any efforts by its users to improve its software would suffice. To simply take the document discuss it etc and not provide any official response, acknowledgement is insulting to the time and effort people put in (ie thirdeye), they may not agree with it 100% and still go there own way all of which i would have more respect for.

rant over...you can get back to flaming me if you like.
:shame: :shame:


I don't agree with you for many reasons:

1) All the things we've put in that document are known issues: what i mean is they already know they should implement all those things, the betatesters have submitted all those suggestions during the years.

2) They usually listen to user suggestions and they demonstrated it in the past so they don't need an official statement. "They want a rewrite? Ok let's give them Amber", "They want a better renderer? Ok let's give them V7", "They want more CA tools? Ok let's give them Mocca, Cappuccino, Xpresso and everything else in Oxygen"

3) All the development is kept secret for marketing/software "wars" issues, so they can't say "hey dude, we've decided to implement x, y and z"

4) They already have a schedule to follow, they already know what they have to add and they almost never fail, they transformed a little toy, R5, in a hi end package as R8 is, in the ridiculous amount of time of 3 years.

5) They already told me they've read our wish-list and that has been useful to read what users want

6) They know better than us what the market wants, they've worked in the 3D world for years, so they know better than us what they can add or not add.

7) The coders point of view can be different from ours. I mean we can't simply ask to implement real nurbs and expect them to add them in a short amount of time, that would require a rewrite, and it would take away a lot of time, stability and we wouldn't have all the features we receive each time they release a new version.

8) That list has been written by 20 people (more or less). What are 20 people in the whole C4D userbase?

Trust them, you won't be disappointed ;)

[AdamT]

Yep, what ThirdEye said. :thumbsup: As I see it the list was just a group submission form like you would normally send to Maxon via their online form. I don't know about you , but I've never gotten a response to any of the many suggestions I've made on those forms. *But*--several of the things I've requested have been implemented. The important thing IMO is that Maxon saw the priorities of the individuals who participated in the submission. Why would it make you feel better if they said, "thanks, we'll take those suggestions under advisement"?

[flingster]

in response to your points.
1) how are we supposed to know if no one informs us of this
2) nobody doubts they listen to user suggestions
3) nobody expects them to say this will be implemented i know the market is competitive...i already said i didn't want a point for point statement...surely acknowledging users input would provide maxon with a competitive advantage rather than disadvantage.
4) i'm glad they have a schedule...and this could have been pointed out...whilst also acknowledging users input...even if we are totally out of line with there development lifecycle...i already said this....why not just say so..."thanks but no thanks is better than...nothing...how do we know they listen if no ones says we are listening....our only way currently is through forums which some maxon employees frequent (thank god), this was a perfect opportunity for maxon to take better user dialogue and communication on board...they simply missed the boat.
5) this is what i originally asked...i'm glad you got a response from maxon and you should have...i'm happy if youre happy...:thumbsup:
6) not sure about this...surely all businesses are customer driven
7) totally agree with you very often user goals are far removed from reality...but dialogue would have mean't better informed users from the start and more realistic requests.
8) yup i agree...20 people is not much...however as you are aware a very vocal 20...and very pro-active group which begs the question why not take the initiative....rather than reacting to market conditions.

look thirdeye i know you submitted the document and maybe all our communication was also not up to scratch on this also..but i just think best case and worst case scenarios....worst case they chuck it in the bin...they didn't to that...thankfully...but they also didn't keep that dialogue and communication feedback open either did they.

i'm not disappointed in that i'm glad you did it...i'm also glad maxon listen to users....but things can always be better...very often programmers and users are just not close enough on there goals....this then is further messed by corporate goals...very soon
we find no communication, blame culture, and falling software sales...potential lost imho.

sorry for changing this thread whoever started it...it just reminded me thats all.

[flingster]

AdamT: its the principle...:shrug:

[ThirdEye]

The problem is that a lot of things can't be said and everything must be secret, but i ensure you they've read that list and they told me it has been useful, i said it in this forum sometime ago, obviously it's impossible to read every single post every single day so maybe you missed it. :hmm:

[DELTAadmin]

I was right declaring this thread a turmoil.

Have U noticed that those few particular issues are very important in professional enviroments. ("I hope they can implement superb NURBS and SUBD tools, I hope they will bring perfect UV mapping, I hope there will be scene linking, I hope we can find saveable animation clips etc...").

I'd like to see Cinema in the highest places of 3D, where now others take the place, since my favousite app. doesn't have these basic features.

We all want to see C4D's elevation, this way no need for fervent arguings I think.

[ThirdEye]

Real Subds are not so "basic", the only app that has them is Maya, and they're so slow and clunky that almost everybody uses normal polygons and smooth proxy in Maya. The only person that uses subds in Maya that i know of is Steven Stahlberg. If you want some good NURBS better get Rhino, even Maya isn't half as good as Rhino at NURBS.

[flingster]

agreed...personally i think its a good thing we all want to see better tools and better take up of c4d in all environments and hope the next 3years will see the same speed of development that the last 3 have seen.

ThirdEye_01: youre probably right...
its a cool feature though....would be nice...heh heh.:thumbsup:

[DELTAadmin]

Hierarchical Subds can be found also in Max, and it is a top wish for LW8.

It is not slow and clunky, but very fast on my two main computers (thunderbird 1.33 and p4 2.53), each with gef 4 tit 4200. 128 mb.

Maya's Nurbs tools is widely used in film production when creating the most complex models organic or not organic, (with NURBS patches). Maya's Nurbs implementation in some respect is much better than Rhino's own.

This wise when I need these thing I always have to resort to these apps.

[ThirdEye]

Originally posted by DELTAadmin
Hierarchical Subds can be found also in Max, and it is a top wish for LW8.

It is not slow and clunky, but very fast on my two main computers (thunderbird 1.33 and p4 2.53), each with gef 4 tit 4200. 128 mb.

Maya's Nurbs tools is widely used in film production when creating the most complex models organic or not organic, (with NURBS patches). Maya's Nurbs implementation in some respect is much better than Rhino's own.

This wise when I need these thing I always have to resort to these apps.


Max implementation of HSDS is based upon polygons, Maya's isn't. Try both on a 1.000.000 polys model. ;) About nurbs implementation... Maya's are more character modeling oriented than Rhino's for sure, but Rhino's features for mechanical modeling are far superior.

[DELTAadmin]

That's true, that is way I use Maya's subds rather than Max's. Anyway Max's Nurbs implementation is very-very slow.

As for Maya, I do not want to argue above Rhino, but besides Rhino it contains a production proven very-very detailed NURBS toolset integrated right into a production proven interface and workflow and renderer ...

Ok but the question is, when will we see these not so basic tools in Cinema?

[ThirdEye]

Originally posted by DELTAadmin
Ok but the question is, when will we see these not so basic tools in Cinema?

Not to sound pessimist but i think the right question would be "will we ever see these not so basic tools in Cinema?" :hmm:
The answer's always the same tho, they have other priorities atm, if you really want them to work on these things it's better you submit them the form on their website. :shrug:

[flingster]

anybody know what new nurbs stuff form.z got? i think there was a new version with a major re-write?

maxon seem to concentrate on particular areas for development with each new version. So if there was a new update tomorrow what area...NOT function would you go for developments in?
Modelling, Materials, Animation, whatever....modelling i suppose...i mean what area are we actually saying with the comp we are weak...

[DELTAadmin]

If we are here, some other wishes

-nodebased material system
-spreedsheet like attribute system for batch data handling
-I think the renderer is a bit techy, lacks - as I see - the reality achieved by slower but more configurable renderers (Maya's own without and with Mental Ray, Max new Renderer, Lw's built in..)


Guys these are all important developements, relly necesarry for production houses. Ok if U render simple stills, then not, but then where is the future?

[DELTAadmin]

U are talking about Rewrite, but do not forget

CINEMA IS A MODULAR SYSTEM, everything can be easily incorporated, If U want even Microsoft word inside Cinema

[flingster]

so you'd go for materials/renderer improvements over modelling?

[DELTAadmin]

U were talking about some other improvements, additions, I just added some more.

I want Cinema's upheaval, I know it has a ground a solid ground on which everything can be eassily built, This software needs not to be rewriten this software let programmers easily add their functions.
Maxon achieved a lot, I just delineated some kind of wished future.

[ThirdEye]

Originally posted by DELTAadmin
If we are here, some other wishes

-nodebased material system
-spreedsheet like attribute system for batch data handling
-I think the renderer is a bit techy, lacks - as I see - the reality achieved by slower but more configurable renderers (Maya's own without and with Mental Ray, Max new Renderer, Lw's built in..)


Guys these are all important developements, relly necesarry for production houses. Ok if U render simple stills, then not, but then where is the future?



I agree with almost everything you said, but i REALLY don't agree about your statements about the renderer. C4D's renderer is one of the best out there, i'd put only Mental Ray and Prman over it. Max renderer? Is it a joke? Lw's renderer? Not so good at raytracing imo. Maya's renderer is pure crap if compared to C4D's.

[flingster]

yup ok...but these things take time...i was just wondering really...what your thoughts were...wasn't having a go or anything..

i mean a rewrite...could mean ngons etc...but would take longer to come out...complete rewrite also could mean lots of fix releases afterwards.

whereas another upgrade could mean materials/rendering improvements maybe some modelling stuff really quickly...its a bit of a catch twenty two situation...damned if they don't, damned if they do!

so whats it gonna be guys....
:shrug:

[ThirdEye]

They already rewrote it for V6 and V8 was really close to a rewrite, i don't think we need another ground up rewrite. I want them to work on the material system, CA tools and modeling tools. The renderer can be enhanced but i'm really happy with it right now.

[DELTAadmin]

Ever seen Maya, LW or Max Gallery? Compared these to Cinema's. They almost sweep away Cinema's. I definitely see some weekness in Cinemas render, as u were also testifying about it when discussing a brazil glass here at Cinema forum.

The other side is that these apps have more extended professional user base in film or post effect production houses.

OK I've finished talking, I just want Cinema's improvement, and if the suugestions I and U were discussing would be taken into consideration, than most professionals would interchange his software to Cinema.

[ThirdEye]

Originally posted by DELTAadmin
Ever seen Maya, LW or Max Gallery? Compared these to Cinema's. They almost sweep away Cinema's. I definitely see some weekness in Cinemas render, as u were also testifying about it when discussing a brazil glass here at Cinema forum.


The last thing i watch when i compare 2 renderers is their gallery. These are only dependant on the users, not on the software. If the user doesn't know how to use the program that's not a problem of the software, it's a problem of the user, period. It's not a fault of C4D's renderer if Blizzard uses Max and Digital Domain uses Lightwave. Also if you look at Maya's galleries you won't find anything stunning unless it's rendered with Renderman. Try all these programs we mentioned for rendering, you'll be back soon to C4D, i bet.

About that issue with glass... C4D's raytracer seemed even superior to Brazil's (look at the comparison pics i posted there), the only problem is the lack of a refraction channel, nothing else.

[LucentDreams]

DElta admin, thirdeye is talking about two features most specifically in that thread, two features which are nw to most renderers that have them,I'm sorry buit the only renderers that compare are the ones like brazil, mental ray, vray, and Final render, and uhm those are al 3rd party renderers. Hmm funny how that works.

I can't believe especialy that your description of where C4D's falls is the fact that its techy. Can't comment on final render or vray, but seriously have you tried brazil or mental ray, they are more technical then C4d's, I mean I know what each setting in C4d's render means and does by hjeart now, and then I get into brazil and there are settings that don't make anysense and don't seem to have a whole lot of purpose, not saying its a bad renderer at all, but if C4D's is too techy then your going to have problems with other renderers.

The point of the gallery is a valid point, there isn't a lot in there, but how many of the cgtalk pieces have you seen in there? or pieces in La creme are on maxon's galery, I mean that point collides with the other thread discussing the fact that maxon's gall;ery is a little old and fairly unimpressive. I think thats both maxon and users faults and not the app itself. We don't submit images and maxon (unlike LW) doesn't go around hearding every single forum user who does something nice. Man what I"d do for proton's job.

As for big companies, well those companies are old, many of them before C4D was really active in North America, so of course C4D isn't used by them, a program has to realy really wow before a company will spend the money to change its whole pipeline.

THe modular system is designed so that tools can be developed much easier into the system, but there are limits. You have to understand what a toold does how it works, I mean tilt projection can be done, maxon should be able to do something lie that right now, but Ngons, do you understand how winged edge and half edge systems work. The simple fact of how a po9lygon is drawn changes, so maxon would have to write a new setup for that, then the tools no longerwork, since the other tools manipulated points ades and polies based on how they were written before, so all poly tools would have to be rewritten. So many tools can simply be added, but manyt also need complete rewrites. Have you ever noticed point upgrades usually come out at the same time or just before something else is released? (6.2 then bodypaint, 6.3 then pyrocluster [unless I got those two backwards] 7.2 dynamics) Thats usually because things have to be added to the SDK, things need to be changed to help fit those tools in.

And to flingster, Srek did mention on the forums that he had recieved it after someone asked, some others like thirdeye and myself did comment that maxon had recieved it as well.

[DELTAadmin]

Yes, thanx u're right

I work in a printing house, and if I see some techy in Cinema's renders it has to be understood by the eye of a typographer. I use Cinema's renders rather than Max's or Maya's or LW or XSI or anything else, I've tryed all of these. One thing i've discovered:
they all can produce superior quality, but not in a size needed for a printing press, and this is where Cinema comes. It renders with ease A3 renders in 350 dpi.
But seeing the galleries on Highend3d or Raph etc. I wonder how to reach this softness that some reached. I think built in, adjustable translucency, subsurface scattering will help us, and an algorythm which rounds somehow corners.
Guys mostly I can see too hard edges in renders made with Cinema, too much specularity. Ok much depents on the user, but I think Cinema lacks some material algorythm. It was adjusted by v7s orenyanar and blinn algorythm, but I'd like to see and produce renders like U can see in Pixar movies, or in Dynosaur.

[LucentDreams]

Originally posted by DELTAadmin
Guys mostly I can see too hard edges in renders made with Cinema, too much specularity. Ok much depents on the user, but I think Cinema lacks some material algorythm. It was adjusted by v7s orenyanar and blinn algorythm, but I'd like to see and produce renders like U can see in Pixar movies, or in Dynosaur.

Remember that pixar uses renderman which is a totally different rendering system then all the others we've compared.

But your right, too many hard angles and high specularity, but as you mentioned those are faults of the users. Most users I doubt use blinn or oren nayer (I use blinn most of the tme now) Simply because they don't know or understand thses things. YOu can produce renders of those quality, but that ssimply up to the artist, and if you look at most the guys at pixar, you'll notice they almost all have one thing in common (besides the hawaiian shirts) and thats the fact the know how to use pencil and paper. Man the stuff at pixar looks so great because its all done traditionally first, the animations move so well because they are mostly animators, not 3D animators, IMO thats what makes the difference. These are guys who understand movement and timing, not how to move things in 3D, there is a HUGE difference. But seriously look at the lacreme gallery, look at Squid or thirdeye's work, I'm sure you'll see its all capable, its just up to the artist.

And do rememeber that most, not all but most features nowaday are not essential features, they are efficiency features nothing more, they make it easier they don't make a difference in final output. Ngons, they don't affect the quality, they jsut make it easier when modeling, Shader tree system, makes it easier to adjust and create shaders (there are some extra things like using shader attibutes to control other things and such which can't be done currently) it doesn't affect the quality of the shaders, our current shader system still is a tree system of sort, but you have to enter each branch to see what its limbs are when using fusion. This is one thing that also has to go through maxon's minds, how important is a feature, I mean we may all want ngons, but really, are we going to be okay without them for 2 or threemore versions, oh yeah for sure, it makes things a little slower when mdeling, but reality is that it doesn't limit what you can make.

[Per-Anders]

cinema's render engine can produce as good results as mental ray, here's an image i copied from an xsi image, recreated in cinema ages ago from a mental ray original by Baruch Zevolun (i hope he doesn't mind), just to prove the point that cinemas render engine can easily cut it.

http://www.peranders.com/c4d8/gallery/per/vasa.jpg

this is a recreation of an image shown here (just click the link on the page to the vase image.

http://www.softimage.com/Community/Xsi/Galleries/Gal_July02/Gal_July02.asp

Cinema's render engine is as capable of producing organic effects, photorealism, you name it. It's up to the users to model, light and texture their objects well enough in the first place.

You shouldn't spend time worrying about the galleries of these various apps. Frankly the A|W gallery is pretty shockingly poor, considering what Maya is capable of. Lightwaves galery is great because Newtek are very active at getting people to submit their work to the gallery. Cinema's gallery just hasn't had very much new submited to it, but you only need to take a look at the work produced by Pupii, Third-eye etc to see quality work being produced in cinema.

The biggest fault i see in cinema renders is that a lot of poeple have grown to depend on the fact that cinema's render engine is so good. It's very hard to get a bad render out of cinema, so in many ways that makes people lazy, it's very easy to get a bad render out of maya, or lightwave, so that makes people put in the effort. You really have to learn about lighting and texturing with those apps.

[Brent Turbo]

I don't get where this thread has gone...

If you want a model with HSDS, then use Maya to model that, and either take that into Cinema, or render in Maya and composite later. Do you think that all these wonderful CG shots in movies are just straight renders out of one piece of software? They may render grass and hair in PRman, fog in Maya, a character in lightwave, and so on and so on, and then smack them all together in compsiting. Get creative, people!

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