Concrete Jungle Assassin (Project Redux)

[heavyness]

she doesn't have any hips. because she has no hips, the model looks like she is stretched through-out the hip/mid section. and i don't think the skull on her head matches the rest of the costume. looks out of place. your ploy lines looks clean, but hard to see [maybe a better wireframe shot would be better].

if it was me, i would decrease her bust line too. i would make her a smaller character, like 5' 3" but very agile and toned [not muscular]

good start, keep going with it.

[Artician]

Two things stand out to me the most, the anatomy and the material construction.

She seems a bit disproportionate all around. Fingers too thin (particularly the thumbs) breasts too low, torso too stretched, toes and feet look a bit awkward, etc.
The materials don't stand out from the overall model, and everything looks roughly the same aside from the flesh. It's a little too specular and plastic. What looks like cloth in the diffuse is reflecting highlights in the specular, which if it's cloth should reflect none at all, etc.
The outfit does not seperate well from the body, as though they are one in the same in some places, instead of the outfit being something worn over the flesh. This can be fixed if you use sharper/higher contrasting specular textures to split up material types, and maybe seperate out some areas with sub-divisions (i.e. give her a bevel between her flesh and outfit in areas that are more noticable).
Lastly on this note is that even though you have a few colorful patterns on her clothing, it's impossible to tell what material it's made of. Put some hints of construction into her, stitches around areas that should be sewn in, puffier normal maps on areas that look to be padding in her armor, rougher, more specular leather in areas that look like rawhide.

For the technical side, if you're using normal mapping it does not show much. Try focusing your normal maps on the larger features first. Use it to add detail where geometry would suffice, but there is none to use, etc. In particular I'm thinking of the areas around her groin and leggings, or areas where there are large breaks in color to signify a change in material.

Given the characters sillowhete, and using normal maps, you could potentially get the current design down to 2500-3500 polys without losing much detail at all. When you look at her she's really not much more than a nude female model; her clothing takes up very little detail, so there is not much reason for such a high polycount unless you really want to give her expressive eyes or very fluid props to animate with.

What I like the most about this piece is that she is very colorful. The colors look good and are interstingly combined. Not tacky.

I think it's more than a 2-3 week job though. I might even say use her current state as a base mesh and starting fresh. Give her anatomy a serious overhaul since that stands out the most, and will be seen first by most people. Then work up from there, seperating out her clothing first, giving it depth, and making certain the normal map will cover any areas you don't have a poly-budget for.

Don't give up on it though, it's a strong start to a nice model. Keep it up!

[J-RBeans]

Well done. I like the texture style. I think the teal is over powering right now though.

[Dekker3D]

i agree with just about everything that artician said, although the breasts being too low could just mean she's going bra-less. or something.

i like the vivid colours, but yeah.. do change the speculars and add to the hips. also, maybe you could try desaturating the skin juuust a bit, to bring out the colour in the clothes a bit more, or vice versa.. depending on whether the clothes should grab the attention.

[simoncheng]

very nice project.

[CountSmackula]

Whoa, thanks for the feedback, and the serious C&C.

Atrician - thank you so much for the detailed breakdown. When I first built the base, I experienced some Z-fighting issues when I rendered this out for the first time with a normal map; that scared the bejesus out of me, so I just started adding as many edge loops remaining in my budget. I'm a lot more confident now to push every poly to its limit and to pare down the base to your recommended budget. And thank you for the comments on the color. I really try not to use white/black when dealing with color, especially when darkening and lightening a tone.

Heavyness - thanks for the advice in regards to the overall persona & body-type to project for this character. I was really torn between creating a larger, bustier, striking woman versus someone who was smaller, more agile and lithe.

I'm starting to rework my base; here are some shots of my untouched base (which obviously need some thorough adjustments throughout).

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/505/headcf4.png

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/5564/torsodz7.png

Questions & Considerations: a big reason why I posted this project thread was because I was trying to figure out the viability and strategic practicality of redux'ing this character. I'm in a position where I really need to hit one out of the park, and my next portfolio (whether it's this or another character) project is going to be pretty pivotal. I definitely think this character is worth redux'ing, but part of me thinks I should maybe take this base and attempt something a bit easier to reference (like a Shadowrun/Necromunda-esque female ganger). My goals are still the same, but I feel like it might come out better in another guise. I figure I'd solicit some opinions as I work on the base. I'll either succumb to mob rule or I'll just flip a coin.

Also, thanks for all the positive feedback and encouragement!

[Swift3D]

I really like the vibrant colours on this one, has a nice feel.

the thing that stuck out to me aws that the armor plate on her thigh seems to be under the skin (as if a chunk of skin had been cut away to reveal it) I'm having trouble finding what it is that gave me this impresion and I think that it's the shading at the top of the plate, it looks like it's dropping a shadow down instead of coming out. Another reason I could think of that I was getting this impression is that it doesn't really seem to be binded around her leg, it would be nice to see some bealt like straps attatched to the sides of it and loopin around the back of her leg. Maybe one bind at the top of the plate and one at the bottom.

The second thing to catch my eye was that the skin on her ankle is ALOT shinier that the rest of her skin, i'm not sure how you've done this but it kind of looks like a bit of run away spec. Could just be lighting cating it in an odd way though.

Best of luck with this one, looking forward to seeing updates :)

[CountSmackula]

People on this thread have been so awesome! It's not just the advice; the encouragement has really been pushing me on this project. After doing a boatload of research and gathering reference material, I began to rework the base form:

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/9881/form1pg8.png


http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/4388/form2rb0.png

It's still a mess (tesselation-wise) but I wanted to get to the rough form first to get as much feedback and perspectives as possible as early as possible. There's not going to be as much armor going onto this character, so acheiving correctness of the human form is a big deal to me as I move on. C&C please!

[Artician]

Glad you're cranking away on it. The face is probably the strongest feature. The edgeloops seem clean from where I can see, and overall it's okay.

The body is not anatomically correct in many places. I can't really put together a whole list because it's kind of rough all around. To give you a general idea of what stands out most to me on your model, I can single out a few specific areas that make the most impact at the moment -
-There is no really recognizable mass for the external oblique on her. Even the most fit people in the world have this, and without it they look like a vase on a table.
-The clavicals generally tilt inwards and come to rest on the sternum, which is a lower point than the end which reaches the shoulder. Here is an extreme example. (http://www.nickannstreet.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=872&g2_serialNumber=2)
-The Sterno Cliedo Mastoid is a great landmark for the way the neck attaches to the rest of the body. At the moment your neck is far too cylindrical. Keep in mind that this tendon reaches from the rear of the jaw, beneath the ear, to connect to the clavical at the same point the clavical rests on the sternum.
-Her legs are not straight. When looking at the front of a person you shouldn't see a bend between the thigh and lower-leg, unless they have a painfully destroyed knee.
-Her fingers and toes still seem strangely thin, but I don't know if you've messed with those yet or not. Worth a mention though.
-Her ears are a tad bit low as well. Top of the ear should meet the eye. The bottom should meet the nose.

Your edge loops overall seem like they're headed in the right direction. Too early to tell but for the most part her topology is a good base to start from.
You could use some more subdivisions around her shoulders and trapezius though. Those areas (deltoid, trapezius, and all of the back and front of the chest) has a lot of subtle movement. Take off your shirt and watch your chest and back in a mirror when you move your arm from front to back, or up and down (like flapping). Or watch a video of a body builder doing one handed reps. Everything moves in there, so a nice, consistent mesh is a must for those areas.

Overall I really recommend doing some hardcore study on anatomy and then looking at the piece again. You mentioned gathering some resources, let me point you to the ones that are always on my desk and forever will be:

I feel that Human Anatomy for Artists (http://www.amazon.com/Human-Anatomy-Artists-Elements-Form/dp/0195052064/ref=sr_1_7/105-0454014-3319621?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216222640&sr=1-7) is hands down the best all-around book for anatomy. It covers everything in great detail, with great illustrations and multiple layers of disection. This is a must-own for any character artist. It will help you greatly with the technical side of your art, i.e. proportions, muscle locations, mass, over and underlapping detail, and skeletalature (I just made that word up but it's awesome so don't anyone correct me). It helps a great deal to study the illustrations in this book and draw them yourself as you go. Try to match the level of detail and correctness in it. It's time consuming but a necessary step to understanding which muscles really go in, around, over and through each other, and which ones are grouped and for what functions.

Constructive Anatomy by George Bridgeman (http://www.amazon.com/Constructive-Anatomy-Dover-Books-Instruction/dp/0486211045/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-5380029-9342301?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216222500&sr=8-1) is probably the best book you can find to study form without drawing from life. It gives you a more abstract look at the forms created by limbs, joints and masses on the overall human body. It breaks all these pieces down into primitive objects so they are easy to understand, and then interpenetrates them to represent the function of their form.

Also, definitely be hitting up the figure drawing classes and open salons, if you have them in your area. I know of a few very talented 3D character artists that can do wonders with the CG form, but can't sketch it worth a damn. However I personally don't believe this is wise, especially in the game industry where a lot of well rounded skills are necessary (and will keep your job from going to china). There is no better way to learn anatomy than from the ground up, and by breaking down human beings in a sketch from life you quickly learn to understand how they work. It's basically learning to digest what you see by thinking on paper.

Lastly, I never recommend people use photos for reference, but if you absolutely can not get your hands on any other decent materials, there is always 3D.sk, and I think the Gnomon videos have some good figure drawing tutorials.

Please don't let my feedback get you down. It's cool that you're busting out all the work on this, so keep it up. The reason I'm giving you the major breakdown is because you seem serious about improving and set on getting a solid portfolio peice, so I hope that my comments help some.

Take it easy.

[CountSmackula]

Hey everyone, thanks for the feedback! I've reworked the base to a point, and I certainly wanted to show it off to get some C&C before I proceed. I spent a lot of time on the hands and arms, and proportions are a strong sense of anatomy are going to be vital for this project being a success. Here are some shots:

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2897/nickleeprog02bj0.png

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/1760/nickleeprog03tg9.png

Oh man, my eyes hurt from working on this one so much. I'm definitely going to take a short break on this one and start work on an environment project I have laid out while I collect feedback on this character base.

Currently at ~4200 tris.

[CountSmackula]

Made some needed adjustments to the proportions. Currently at 4412 triangles.

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/4193/nickleeprog04lw2.png

http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/2722/nickleeprog05fq5.png

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/2640/shot05ca6.png

[PadleSneg]

Are you sure about ~4000 tris, It seems to be about 8000.

[CountSmackula]

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/9854/countwn3.png


It's currently at 4412 triangles :). I haven't touched this project in a few days, but the next step will be smoothing out the general topology a bit, and taking off some of the low-poly look. I'm also studying some edgeloop references, because I would really like this character to have a full-range of motion, especially in the hips and legs.

[Artician]

She definitely needs better looping. At the moment she would deform not so well in many of her areas, primarily because you've laid her out like a grid.
I think the primary rule of edge loops is that they should follow muscle groups, and be more concentrated in areas you see the most bending.

That being said, you can still get her polycount much, much lower. Contrary to concentrating edge loops in bendable areas, you can eliminate a ton of polys in areas where you won't see as much bending or movement. There are far too many subdivisions along her thighs, arms, back and abdomen. In those major areas of her body, you could probably get away with half the polys that you have now.

Last thing is, I would continue to work on her proportions as you rework her topology. She still appears very inhuman in many ways. Waist and hips are much too thin. Her shoulders seem like they're permanently shrugged, and I can't really see the line of her trapezius which would normally form that nice smooth curve between her neck and deltoid. Her thighs and knees could also use more emphasis on the muscle groups in those areas. The knee in particular doesn't thin out that much, and the muscles from the thigh that come to rest on the kneecap should be less oblong and little more formed (looping that follow those groups will help with that).

Glad to see it coming along. Don't work too hard man.

[Artician]

I took your characters silhouette and made a few suggestive edits. It's easier to convey these ideas visually anyway. Hope it's of some use.

http://www.creathcarter.com/site_images/misc/jungleAss-edit.jpg

-------------------^Original^------------------------------------------------^Edited^

[CountSmackula]

Atrician - THANK YOU for the paintover! Just a question: would the proportions of your edited paintover work for a taller/statuesque woman (athletic, 5'9")? I wanted to ask because one of my biggest weaknesses is translating proportions to taller/shorter body types. For now, I'll just use it, and keep a close eye on my reference material.

Also, on a technical note, if I'm planning to sculpt-out some subdivision meshes in ZBrush, should I optimize my mesh beforehand? What I usually do is create an evenly distributed base for sculpting, create my high poly, then generate a new, optimized low-poly for animation from the first subdivision of my sculpted mesh. Am I just generating more work for myself by creating an evenly tessellated mesh for sculpting and then creating an optimized low-poly mesh for animation?

[AgustinLV]

I've always loved the Hunter character from Quake 3 Arena, looked so sexy and deadly at the same time.

[Artician]

I'm glad it's helpful! The proportions would work fine for a tall athletic female. Maybe the edit looks short next to the original silhouette, but that's because I shorted the torso and lower legs (because they were disproportionately long). The edit still has slightly lengthier thighs and arms compared to a typical female, which give her that lengthy musculature. If you model it and find out it doesn't work, you can always manipulate it to your ideal shape.

I see what you mean with your creation of a base mesh. Your current mesh will subdivide well in your sculpting application, but since you're technically sculpting out detail for the muscle groups, having your initial model with edge loops that follow those forms is also a good idea.

There are countless ways to approach the workflow of high-poly/low-poly character creation. I typically create the low poly in-game version first, use it as the base mesh for the sculpt, and then I'm done without having to create another model, but I know of a few people that will create a seperate base to generate a highres sculpt, and then remodel over the top for the final piece. Stick with what works for you!

[PadleSneg]

Hey, dude, I don't find fault with you, I just try to help. But something is wrong with your tri counter.

Model about 9k tri - http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=43&t=631279&page=2&pp=15

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