Mac Pro vs BOXX ... which system to get?

[SheepFactory]

Short of building one yourself which is always cheaper, Mac Pro is the best bang for your buck as far as workstations go.

Boxx also builds very high quality and reliable machines. And their support is second to none. I owned two boxx workstations and dont have anything bad to say about them either. You will have a kickass computer no matter which company you pick.

[SanjayChand]

I have a BOXX too and it kicks ass.

[GrimPixel]

Boxx makes fantastic machines. Great great quality. You honestly can't go wrong with a Boxx system. System build quality is awesome, support is awesome.

That being said when faced with the same choice I purchased a Mac Pro. You can't run OS X on a Boxx system, short of unsupported hacks. You can run both OS X and Windows on a Mac Pro. That made my decision for me.

Grim

[biliousfrog]

I guess it comes down to the support level you require. If you're quite confident with computer hardware and software and are able to fix problems yourself then the Mac's are very well priced. You should consider what happens when you have a technical issue though, who do you turn to when a Windows application isn't working properly on a Mac?

I went with BOXX because I wanted the backup should things go wrong and I knew that everything would work straight out of the box with my software. Unfortunately, when running a Windows application on Windows, on a Mac you're introducing a lot of extra hassle if something doesn't play nicely....but there's a lot of people that do it and there's a lot of people that can offer support. :shrug:

[SheepFactory]

I guess it comes down to the support level you require. If you're quite confident with computer hardware and software and are able to fix problems yourself then the Mac's are very well priced. You should consider what happens when you have a technical issue though, who do you turn to when a Windows application isn't working properly on a Mac?

I went with BOXX because I wanted the backup should things go wrong and I knew that everything would work straight out of the box with my software. Unfortunately, when running a Windows application on Windows, on a Mac you're introducing a lot of extra hassle if something doesn't play nicely....but there's a lot of people that do it and there's a lot of people that can offer support. :shrug:


Huh? A windows application will work just fine in a mac just like it works in a boxx. They are no different. Mac's run windows natively. When was the last time you used a mac?

[vlad]

Huh? A windows application will work just fine in a mac just like it works in a boxx. They are no different. Mac's run windows natively. When was the last time you used a mac?

Dont you need bootcamp (or the like) to run Win on Macs?

Anyway, if the guy's half familiar with hardware, he should shop around and built it himself.

[ThE_JacO]

Dont you need bootcamp (or the like) to run Win on Macs?

Anyway, if the guy's half familiar with hardware, he should shop around and built it himself.

The only difference is the need for a bootloader to manage the boot and the EFI.
Once windows begins starting all differences disappear. It's not emulation or virtualization.

[BOXXlabs]

I've been following this thread and I think that most people are pretty well informed about the options. However, I will add a few factual points that may be worth considering...

If someone has a need to run both MAC and Windows software, then a MAC may be a good choice.

However, there are some real limitations on the MAC side if you have fairly heavy requirements from your Windows apps.

For one thing, running 64bit XP or Vista is simply not a viable option. So if you are running applications that otherwise could be run in 64bit mode, you are severely limiting your performance options if you want to run on a Mac Pro under bootcamp.

Secondly, if you are looking for support for your OS and Apps and hardware, forget about Bootcamp.
Most vendors will not officially support hardware or software issues under bootcamp.

(This being the case, and if a lack of support doesn't bother you, then you might as well buy yourself a nice Windows PC and load up OSX86 (http://wiki.osx86project.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page). If you are just wanting to "tinker" and don't need to actually deliver jobs on time, then check into this...)

But back to the point, my take on it is that if you use primarily Windows-only applications for a living, then buy yourself a nice purpose-built Windows workstation.

Otherwise, if you can run your apps in OSX or don't need to run a "heavy" Windows pipeline, then buy a MAC Pro.



Adam
BOXXlabs

[biliousfrog]

Huh? A windows application will work just fine in a mac just like it works in a boxx. They are no different. Mac's run windows natively. When was the last time you used a mac?

I haven't used a Mac since the G4. I was under the impression that Bootcamp was some kind of emulation but obviously not. I wasn't questioning a Mac's ability to run Windows but it does make me wonder where you go to when an incompatability arises.

I'm sure that my concerns are unfounded, I know someone that runs a very successful business on Mac Pro's with Vista and 3ds Max. I just know how helpful Boxx are when there's a software or driver issue and I wouldn't really know where to go if a similar issue arose with a Mac running Windows...I guess it would be the same if I installed Linux on my PC that shipped with Windows?

[ThE_JacO]

For one thing, running 64bit XP or Vista is simply not a viable option. So if you are running applications that otherwise could be run in 64bit mode, you are severely limiting your performance options if you want to run on a Mac Pro under bootcamp.

I don't own a macpro, so I'm talking from hearsay and press releases, but isn't the latest gen of macpros finally on EFI 64, effectively killing that last issue in terms of addressing width?

Last I heard there've been succesful (and 100% functional) 64bit boots and triple boots (probably through refit?) rendering with 64bit compiles of rman engines on macpro.

Of course if you get an old 32bit EFI you'll slam face-first into issues if you wanted 64bit windows, but the EFI was the sole remaining issue preventing full 64bit windows operability of a macpro that I knew of, and I thought it sorted.

[BigPixolin]

I beleive you can install vista 64bit under bootcamp on a Mac Pro shipped since early 2008.
I'm shopping for a dual quad core right now and Mac Pro is the best price I can seem to find.
I use a Mac Pro at work with XP and it works great.

[cbamber85]

I'm gonna throw in my poor student opinion here;)

BUILD YOUR OWN.

You'll learn loads, and save enough money to buy all your software. I got dual quad-core Xeons with 8Gb DDR II for almost a third of the price of an equivalent Mac (at the time). I recommend at least pricing up a home build. People talk about after sales support, I see the value of this if you're buying for a studio, but I find hardware is so reliable nowadays it isn't really worth the giant leap in price.

[seguefy]

cbamber, i've built my own desktops in the past but it's always such a pain in the ass.

but just out of curiosity, can you post all of your machines specs and the overall cost it ran ya?

also, so... can the new Mac Pros run Vista 64bit? im mostly concerned with being able to use 8 gigs of ram.

and Boxx, thanks for your response. you guys definitely have a great company

[BigPixolin]

also, so... can the new Mac Pros run Vista 64bit? im mostly concerned with being able to use 8 gigs of ram.

http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/bootcampupdate21forwindowsvista64.html



and Boxx, thanks for your response. you guys definitely have a great company


Yes my old machine at work was a boxx and it was great.

[ThE_JacO]

also, so... can the new Mac Pros run Vista 64bit? im mostly concerned with being able to use 8 gigs of ram.

The issue Adam was talking about used to exist when Apple was delivering boxes with a 32bit EFI; the more recent alternative to BIOS used by Apple, Intel Itanium and some HP server motherboards.

AFAIK as of Feb 2008 the new mac pros use a 64bit EFI, bootcamp 2.1 supports it, and the latest refit does too. That, if true, eliminates the issue of not being able to use in full 64bit on their workstations.

Said that I have no idea if Adam knows something I don't, which is very possible on account of him doing this for a living, or if he was just going by (very recently) outdated info.

Send a mail to apple's inquiries address and ask, mentioning exactly EFI 32vs64 bit, vista64 and addressing memory freely and fully for each process.

[BOXXlabs]

geez...it's tough to keep up isn't it?

So, it looks like the updated Mac EFI (and thusly Bootcamp 2.1) is supported by the latest version of 64bit Windows, although I have yet to hear from anybody who is successfully running with that configuration.

And still, at the end of the day, it's not a "supported" option by any of the vendors...

This should make anybody who uses their machine to make a living in 3D or VFX think twice about running Windows on a MAC.

[cbamber85]

Sure thing:

Supermicro X7DAE w/ 2xIntel Xeon E5345
8Gb DDRII 667Mhz (Crucial if I remember rightly)
2xMaxtor DiamondMax 21 250Gb
GeForce 7950GT (Old school I know, I just can't justify the price on a Quadro)
2xLG L226WTQ monitors

I bought a fancy rackmount case for it because I also have a cheap Core 2 Duo render node and I have to go between home and my student pad alot so I invested in a rack solution for ease of carrying. As you can see I just bought cheap no frills parts but from reliable companies and it cost about £1900, and this was about 14months ago too.

Why do you find building PC's such a pain in the ass? Only takes a few hours and you have complete control over what goes in the case.

PS- Don't even consider the monitors, they're impossible to calibrate and are built terribly.

[Okzorg]

cbamber85, recently I buit a single processor quad core computer myself for about $2000 because I didn’t have money to get a good dual processor 8 core computer. I tried very hard to beet the mac pro's price of $2800 buy shopping around to build equally powerful 8 core PC but I wasn't able to get anything that could cost less than the mac pro. In fact it would have cost me more to build it myself.
The processors in the mac pro are E5462 which are about $900 each while yours are E5345 and cost about $400 each and there is a big difference between the two processors, here is a spec comparison
http://compare.intel.com/pcc/showchart.aspx?mmID=33084,887286&familyID=5&culture=en-US

I found that it is hard to beet the price of built computers from vendors like Apple and Boxx with high end components.


However that's not the case if you build a computer with mainstream components like I did.

[cbamber85]

That's fair enough Okzorg, but the processor you refer to didn't exist when I bought mine, plus they were about $800 at the time.

[dmeyer]

We are running all DCC apps (Maya, Adobe Suite, Combustion etc) perfectly well in a dual-boot setup here. Hold down option on boot and you choose XP64 or OSX. Or you can run XP64 via VMware within OSX if you like.

Machines running this config:

2006ish dual-dual core Mac Pro 3.0 w/ ATI 10 gigs RAM
2008 Mac Pro 8 Core 3.2 w/ nVidia 880GT 16 gigs RAM
2008 Mac Pro 8 Core 2.8 w/ ATI 16 gigs RAM

The only issue I've found is the Mac Pro RAID card from Apple makes XP64 crash intermittently. Not sure what the issue is but problem went away when it was removed.

[dmeyer]

by the way, thats not to say Boxx is bad or anything. We've got some older Boxx machines here that still run like tanks. If you're ONLY going to run Windows, and want the official support, and more video card options, get a Boxx. We're running OSX 70% of the time so it was a no brainer.

[CK]

Just get a Boxx! Don't have one, used one, fell in LOVE! Built 4 of my own and am through with that end of it, time to spend more time playing than working!

[dan1el]

geez...it's tough to keep up isn't it?

So, it looks like the updated Mac EFI (and thusly Bootcamp 2.1) is supported by the latest version of 64bit Windows, although I have yet to hear from anybody who is successfully running with that configuration.

And still, at the end of the day, it's not a "supported" option by any of the vendors...

This should make anybody who uses their machine to make a living in 3D or VFX think twice about running Windows on a MAC.

Indeed, I thought it was just...uhmm..."not true", but looking up EFI on Wikipedia, I get this:
Microsoft introduced UEFI support for x64 Windows operating systems with Windows Server 2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Server_2008) and Windows Vista Service Pack 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Vista#Service_Pack_1).[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extensible_Firmware_Interface#cite_note-15)[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extensible_Firmware_Interface#cite_note-16) Microsoft claims that the lack of official support for EFI booting on 32-bit CPUs is due to lack of support from PC manufacturers and vendors. Microsoft’s migration to x64 operating systems is not supportable by EFI 1.10, since the x86-64 processor extensions required by x64 operating systems were not a supported processor binding. Support for x86-64 was added in UEFI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFI) 2.0.

indeed very interesting, though I love my OS X

[imashination]

Also consider the price. I put in a few quotes for two machines about a week back. My requested specs were:

8 core machine 3GHz
8 gigs ram via 4x 2gig sticks
2x 1TB harddrives
geforce 8800gt or similar

The mac pro quotes were all pretty much £6,350 give or take a hundred
The Boxx quote for identical machines was £8,742
If I spec the machine on the US site with the ultra low end quadro 570 and add uk tax, then we hit £9800

The middle boxx quote was with the 9800 gtx card, but thats a £200 difference at most.

[andytw]

Also consider the price. I put in a few quotes for two machines about a week back. My requested specs were:

8 core machine 3GHz
8 gigs ram via 4x 2gig sticks
2x 1TB harddrives
geforce 8800gt or similar

The mac pro quotes were all pretty much £6,350 give or take a hundred
The Boxx quote for identical machines was £8,742
If I spec the machine on the US site with the ultra low end quadro 570 and add uk tax, then we hit £9800

The middle boxx quote was with the 9800 gtx card, but thats a £200 difference at most.

On the subject of price the latest issue of 3D World magazine (Sept 2008 issue no. 107) has a group test of Workstations for around £4000.
Most of the entries would match or exceed the above specification with the exception of the harddrives which would add no more than £400 to the price in any case.

Interestingly there is a Mac Pro in the test costing £4084 with the following spec.

2 x 3.2Ghz Quad Xeon X5482
8 x 1GB Ram
512MB 8800GT graphics
4 x 1TB harddrives

I know that Apple's pricing for RAM and harddrive upgrades can make Dell look cheap but over £2000 for changing from 8 x 1GB to 4 x 2GB seems a bit excessive :eek:

[dan1el]

never buy RAM and HDD's at the Apple Store, go for 3rd party "certified" vendors.

[biliousfrog]

Also consider the price. I put in a few quotes for two machines about a week back. My requested specs were:

8 core machine 3GHz
8 gigs ram via 4x 2gig sticks
2x 1TB harddrives
geforce 8800gt or similar

The mac pro quotes were all pretty much £6,350 give or take a hundred
The Boxx quote for identical machines was £8,742
If I spec the machine on the US site with the ultra low end quadro 570 and add uk tax, then we hit £9800

The middle boxx quote was with the 9800 gtx card, but thats a £200 difference at most.

Again this comes down to what you're using it for and how important support is. If you have an issue with Maya, After Effects, Photoshop...etc. on Vista x64 would you expect Apple to do everything in their power to help?...Would their support people even know what Maya is?

You'd be left to deal with it yourself, searching forums for people that have the same hardware specs and running the same software and fixing it yourself. When you're in the middle of a project with a deadline looming you don't want those hassles and it could actually work out more costly.

Don't get me wrong, the Mac Pro's are very well priced at the moment but there's still the issue of support which, for CG workstations, Boxx wins hands down.

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