CGTalk - Uplift Universe-Alien Relations CGChallenge XXII Video Awards

JackZhang

07-09-2008, 03:39 PM

Looks like I'm the first one who start to write "angry message" in this thread.

1. Uplifted Universe - Alien Relations CGChallenge XXII is nothing but an entertainment nightshow.

I remember getting Honorable Mentions for Journey Begins Challenge a while back, I recieve the result at the same time as everyone else. Checked the frontpage, red the news, looked at the final result and I found myself in the Honorable Mentions section. I was jumping up and down with joy. AS A WINNER, I RECIEVE THE WINNING NEWS AT THE SAME TIME AS EVERYONE ELSE. NO UNDERGROUND WORK, NO SNEAK AND PEAK. And what's happening nowaday?

“This is my first participation at the CGChallenge, and when I began to see the quality of the whole entries, I just couldn't imagine for one second I’d win a prize,” says Anthony.

Anthony's comment is in the award annoncing feather article. Meaning by the time CGS write this feather article, the winners already know that they win, BEFORE THE PUBLIC ANNONCING! In fact, if you read other winners' comments, they all sounded like having a winning interview. If you check the winners' WIP threads, none of them said anything like this when they were participating.

So for those ones who waited over a month and found the winning result from yesterday's feature article (including myself), I'm sorry but we are actually the last one who are informed. We are nothing but some guys who are watching a larry king show, which was recorded a while ago and we still think it's a live.

CGS, are you treading your members equally?

2. Uplifted Universe - Alien Relations CGChallenge XXII is a badly wrapped entertainment nightshow.

CGS holds Challenge, Sponsors gives the price. Both of them get more exposure, more opportunities of making money, and eventually, more money. It's just a business. Fair enough. No complains.

But if it's a business, then we are the clients. We want some real service.

Many people in the FAQ section asked if the judges can give some words in the annoucing about why the artist wins the catagory. Basically, we want to see some reasons. Reasons of why this person is better than that person and why he/she is well deserved.

Now let's look at some of the comments from the judges:

One of the comment the judge gave to Texturing winner was "Meng-Han Ho: awesome lighting, love it." NICE. Winning texturing because of "awesome lighting"??

Comment from judge for Best Character: Meng-Han Ho: This is amazing. (The funny thing is, since akahrama won both honorable mentions of illustration and best character. The editor copied all comments from illustration article and pasted in video article. Then removed two comments and left one a day after, so it doesn't look too obvious to us it's a copy-paste.) If "this is amazing" was the reason of him winning this catagory, then i'm not convinced.

Best one is the sclpture catagory. It's hilarious. The Winning piece doesn't even have a sculpting milestone. To me it sounds more like "illustration people are having most of the awards, let's give some price to the video guys".

Once again, I understand truth behind all of these is just business, and the whole winning/annoncing is just a show. I've heard many comments from other CGS memebers

"haha, I think CGS is just a business, dont care about it too much."

"yeah, dont care about it too much, its their "business" , like all companies, u r there just to make money for them,lol"

I don't mind "doing business" with CGS. I've been with CGS for over 4 years now, this society to me always means quality and equalty. The previous Challenges might had a few debatable result but I believe they were still resonable. However this time, my confidence starts to shake. Giving irrelevant judging comments, copy-paste time-saving article, using different standards on winners and non-winners, what more will we get in the next challenge?

Honestly I don't want to offend any individuals, nor judges, nor winners. And I really do hate flaming at this challenge's results. But when reading the annoncing article, looking at some winning results with judge's comments, thinking about CGS handles and finish this challenge, I can't stop writing these words done. I do wish CGS handles its next challenge professionaly and seriously. I do want to see CGS appears as the leader of CG communities once again.

p.s. SOFTIMAGE sent an email to all participants who finished the challenge, saying

"Hello everybody, We would like to congratulate you for winning the Uplift challenge. I received the list of all winners and order all the SOFTIMAGE|XSI Student/Teacher (full Advance features) licenses for all of you."

Once again, I understand it's all business. But this kind of mistake is a little bit too much. As a participant, I deal with my challenge piece seriously. And I do wish to see both Challenge holder and sponsor deal with it seriously.

Artbot

07-09-2008, 04:19 PM

Congrats! Really nice to see Mike + team's Coffee Break in the winner circle. Nice work!

Cyborgguineapig

07-09-2008, 05:47 PM

Perhaps I'm missing something here but I'm having a difficult time simply "finding" the final videos to watch. I'm reading the article, clicking on the links and its taking me to the wip threads but I'm unsure what I'm looking at are the final works or tests...For example, I click on the Thread link for Coffee break, it takes me to the coffee cup image. Thinking thats the link for the video I click that but it only takes me to the last page of the thread. Then I scroll around and find Post #113 with a barely noticeable link that says "play video". I've now finally found the video but why must it be so difficult to get too? A simplier more direct format in the future would be nice (unless I've completly missed that somewhere). Congrats to everyone who took part though. From bits and pieces I've been able to look at it all looks awesome.

Edit: Just realized "view challenge page" link takes ya there easily. My bad:blush:

maNtodEa

07-09-2008, 06:01 PM

same problem here. where can i find final versions of inspection, legacy, matrioshka, etc.?

Djampa

07-09-2008, 10:45 PM

Mr. Hellard,

Congratulations on these challenges, the level is getting higher each time, seems the CGsociety is playing a nice role with the whole community and pushing the limits.

Nice to watch all this, proud to be around here.

Congratulations to all participants, impressive skills.

See you,

icedeyes

07-09-2008, 11:50 PM

A little unrelated, but how do the people that actually finished the challenge get their XSI license (the educational one i mean for all of us who didn't win)? I didn't receive any emails regarding that subject from Softimage and i would like to use the educational version to get more acquainted with the software.

Thanks in advance for your replies guys.

ShekemUrShekem

07-10-2008, 12:35 AM

From what I saw, there are some with quality equaling anything I've seen in a blockbuster sci-fi film; much better than the stuff on sci-fi channel; and so I have to wonder how many ringers there were who entered this competition.

These entries are not from joe-blows. These people all must have had major experience and even won other contests and/or did prior professional work. I hope no one who entered is going to claim they just picked up an educational license of such-and-such 3D and voila- just happened to turn out hollywood quality. Beginner's luck...not.

I thought these comps were for the undiscovered who are real amateurs. I saw the same thing on American Idol, where a bunch of the 'amateurs' already had record deals in the past and were already pros but fallen on hard times and couldn't find work. Is that what we had here?

I'm unfamiliar with the contest, but if you're having neville pages competing against john smiths, then it's a very unfair challenge. To generate these effects requires access to major resources out of the reach of the typical dude so this is why I ask if this is a contest between big money masters or not.

I'd love to see the bios and the equip/resources used by the winners and the losers both to judge the validity of the fairness of it all.

JurajMolcak

07-10-2008, 08:33 AM

@ ShekemUrShekem - it is hard to judge fairness of it all. Yes, newbies are fighting with heavy professionals here. I knew it from my first challenge. This was my 5th one and believe me, it was hard decision to join it from the moment I saw Tyson Ibele and Grzegorz Jonkajtys entered the challenge. Especially in video category it is very evident who can win and who will loose (almost for sure). I never won this contest and this is my first honorary mention I get. But I do have motivation to enter this challenge again and again. My skills are growing thanks to the need of solving many problems in production of my entry, in deadline pressure. It is almost like in real production ( especially for the team category ). You can compare your work and workflow by checking the WIPs of other entrants and you can learn some new things from it. So afterall I think newbies need professionals to grow and professionals need greenhorns to not fall asleep.

1. challenge - Spectacular - I was new to the industry, forum and challenge

2. challenge - The Journey Begins - good one, learned a lot thanks to the comunity feedback

3. challenge - EON - first video challenge - a bit unfair since there was no individual category. I was very dissapointed but on the other hand I saw how professionals and other folks deal with video topic.

4. challenge - Strange Behavior - I overrated myself with nice but huge concept I wasn't able to finish in style. This was big lesson for me.

5. challenge - Uplif Universe - I had very limited spare time for it. So I had to prepare very good production schedule for it. I finished my entry without compromises. Get my XSI EDU license (good motivation CGS!) and found my self around Honorary mention. And I think I can do better next time :D

Pyke

07-10-2008, 09:00 AM

I was wondering how long it would take before someone complained about the results. Usualy it lasts at least until page 3.

RE:JackZhang

As far as I know, the main prize winners have always known before the winners are annouced to the public. I made a few friends since starting participating, and the guys that placed in the top have been told they were at the top since the ALIENWARE contest.
So do you think that everybody that entered should be informed before the rest of CGTalk? Why?
Do you think that the winners shouldnt be contacted? Why not? They won. Their quotes and such are needed for the feature article.

I agree that I would have liked to see a little more comment and crit from the judges, about what drew them to a certain entry, but I have no doubt that the winners will post their entries in the FINISHED FORUMS on this site, and all the crit I wanted to read will be placed there.

You saying that this challenge wasnt run 'professionally and seriously' is ridiculous. You are basing that opinion on the fact that you dont agree with certain people winning, and not enough judging comments. CGS has always, and WILL always be the leader of the CG Community, in more ways than one.
I dont see the challenges as a service offered to members, but as a thank you. The sponsors are amazing, and with CGTalk, have helped further many peoples aspiring CG careers.

As for SOFTIMAGE's mass email, thats something to email SOFTIMAGES PR department about, not something that should be added to your rant.

RE:ShekemUrShekem,

SO you think that the entries are to good?

These comps have never, and (I hope!) will never be for the 'undiscovered amatures'. The reason that I LOVE the CGTalk Challenges is because everybody can enter, from the guys working in their basements, to top studios. Hell, I would love to see a studio like Framestore or The Mill enter a challenge one day. Now that would be a battle of the giants!

I dont see how its considered unfair to have one person competing with another? Is there a point at which someone goes 'oh wait...you are too good..you cant compete now', or 'No sorry-you arent good enough...you cant compete'.

In the entries, I didnt see any effects that 'required access to major resources out the reach of the typical dude.'
I saw someone using a flashlight in their back yard. I saw a team set up a film shoot in an abandoned warehouse, using their own camera equipment (although you can rent a DVX or some other Prosumer camera nowdays for a few $), and I saw some people using their home PC's and some INCREDIBLE skill to make something that is studio quality work. Perhaps if someone had hired a helicopter, crane, and had 14 Ferrari's exploding on a closed off LA Freeway in their movie, I would agree that they had access to major resources....but even then, why should that stop them from being allowed to enter?

fgdf

07-10-2008, 10:00 AM

^^That's the spirit of this contest. Trying to make a studio work on home basis and against pros like ILM's Grzegorz. I doubt there's a better way for hundreds of people to work on their skills than events like this. Like Jurai told everyone has his story.

JackZhang

07-10-2008, 03:40 PM

As far as I know, the main prize winners have always known before the winners are annouced to the public. I made a few friends since starting participating, and the guys that placed in the top have been told they were at the top since the ALIENWARE contest.

I heard different. I will double confirm on that. on the other hand. oh, so... "main price" get informed first. small price don't? public dont? What's wrong with telling everyone at the same time?

look at how DWIII does it. They start the judging, then they tell the public we start the judging. They get top 50, they even write a huge name list saying if your name is on the list, then you are NOT in.

and what are we doing? so CGS figured out who wins , tell the winners "congra, write me something so i can put in the feature." and meanwhile let the non-winners keep waiting and hoping?? Brilliant. why the non-winners has to wait for an extra period of time? because they are "losers"??

So do you think that everybody that entered should be informed before the rest of CGTalk? Why?

No. i am NOT saying people who entered should be informed before the rest of the cgtalk. You got this part wrong. I am saying that I think everyone in CGTALK should be informed at the same time. No "I'm the winner so I get to know first." or "I'm Honorable Mentions I get to know at the same time as the 'main price' winner." Everyone is equal in this situation. If you still don't get what I am saying, we can continue discuss on this.

Do you think that the winners shouldn't be contacted? Why not? They won. Their quotes and such are needed for the feature article.

"feature article" started at SB challenge. Before that, there was no feature article. I have no problem with feature article. But keep in mind that all those winner's interviews in feature article are just a sugar coat. The main purpose of this feather article is to let the public know the final result, meanwhile provides professional and serious judging comments so CGS show a good reason why it is the leader of the CG communities.

The judges comments in SB's feature article are a lot professional.

This is the comment on best lighting in sb's feather article
"“Superb lighting. This charming but twisted tale is supported by excellent attention and execution of the lighting. I can see ambient occlusion, rim lighting and bounce lighting – all combined to support the look and feel of the story. Very nicely done.”

The comment is clear. it's a lighting winner and the comments are focused on lighting. "ambient occlusion, rim lighting, bounche lighting"

what about UU's feather article and judges comment? Once again, the comment gives to the best the texturing was "the lighting is awesome". best character was "this is amazing". Those comments are either off track, or vague. Compare to SB's comments, these are far from convincing. (To me, these are not professional enough and serious enough.)

You saying that this challenge wasnt run 'professionally and seriously' is ridiculous. You are basing that opinion on the fact that you dont agree with certain people winning, and not enough judging comments. CGS has always, and WILL always be the leader of the CG Community, in more ways than one.

I'd like to ask you to give me a reason why Jan Harcarik won "SCULPTURE" catagory. (Not trying to offend Jan. He complete the video work and that's shyt load of work and he has my full respect. But I don't see the reason of putting him in "SCULPTURE" catagory.

"and not enough judging comments."
No. I said "not professional and serious enough". Quantity doesn't make it professional. Quality does. Compare with SB's comment and UU's comment, I don't think I need to say more on that.

ShekemUrShekem

07-10-2008, 06:47 PM

I just don't see the point in a competition between top industry pros vesus the general public in a free for all with no constraints and no categories. It reminds me of the early days of the UFC when it was just a spectacle and we'd watch 160lb guys fight 350lb sumo wrestlers and get smashed- but it's fun to watch. What I mean by this is there are entrants who have obviously used either z-brush or mudbox and others are using software with half the power, and so they are hamstrung from the start. There should be category competitions- 3ds max modeling, maya modeling, mudbox modeling, etc. We can't have a comp between allan mckay and a guy using c4d particle systems and imagine it's fair or imagine that the loser would learn anything from losing 10 times in a row to him. It's like challenging stephen king to a short story contest...or a young arnold schwarzenegger to a pose-off on stage at the mr. olympia. What can be learned aside from the fact that you will never be as good as them no matter what you do?

Yes, one can be TOO good to be considered eligible to compete with the average man. Why do you think not just anybody can sign up with the new england patriots? just throw on a wizards jersey and walk out onto the court? bring a tennis racket to wimbledon and and beat nadal in 3 straight sets. Get the drift? This needs to be labeled a PRO COMP so that nobody else has aly illusions about its true nature. I'm not going to detail, entry by entry, which ones had access to stuff beyond the price range of 99% of the other entrants because it's a waste of my time- yet we both know it's an accurate statement. As a matter of fact, if I was one of the pros I'd take zero pride in winning against a bunch of amateurs, and I'd demand that this competition be partitioned, from this point on, in a way that provides for challenges between skill levels and whatnot.

Sure, it's fun to submit your work but when its being judged against the work done by guys who have worked or still work for companies like ILM and on feature films, then to say it is unfair and you have zero chance of ever coming close is an understatement. I understand CGS is trying to inspire us but allowing guys who are able to teach masterclasses and already make a ton of money in the industry to compete against normal people who are working off a copy of 3ds max out-of-the-box or maya ple.

Chris, my man...your histrionics are duly noted.

walrus

07-10-2008, 09:43 PM

look at how DWIII does it. They start the judging, then they tell the public we start the judging. They get top 50, they even write a huge name list saying if your name is on the list, then you are NOT in.

Sorry, but the Dominance War contest did the final prize-winners the exact same way: Fred, the DW3 administrator, contacted all top 20 winners in advance to let them know they had won and to get a quote from them. That's why the DW3 announcement has quotes from each contestant, just like the Uplift Challenge article does. And I appreciate why both competitions do it: It makes for a much more interesting article than just listing who won. Given that we can't do the winner's announcement live, like at the Academy Awards where a shocked and happy winner comes up to the stage to make a speech, it's a nice way for the people who did win to have a few words to say. If you entered you art in another competition, such as collections like Expose or Spectrum, the winners know a lot earlier than everyone else, too.

As for the scant comments by the judges, you have to give CGSociety credit: In the past they haven't listed judges comments at all. To have any words from the judges is a step in the right direction. Also keep in mind that judges aren't paid for their jobs and many of them are busy professionals. I would imagine that it can be sometimes it's hard to get lots of quotes from busy people already volunteering a lot of their own time for free. True, DW3 had a ton of judges' quotes... but they also took a LOT longer to get their results out, and I'm sure there's a connection.

ShekemUrShekem, as for your comments on whether the competition is fair, never has CGSociety claimed that this was a competition just for amatuers. This is a society of professionals, many of whom are doing this sort of work as thier jobs. It wouldn't be fair to deny a large portion of the CGSociety entry into the contest becuase they're too good or too professional. If you really want a contest for amatuers, there are plenty of smaller, less professional boards that could satisfy that desire.

It's also a bit short-sighted to look at the CGChallenges as ONLY having a reward of a prize at the end. When you take part in one of the Challenges, no matter what your level of skill, you gain the benefit of getting your work looked at and constructively critiqued by a multitude of people, many of them experts and professionals themselves. And in the process of giving and receiving feedback, you become part of a larger community and perhaps even make friends while you're at it. And making friends and getting peers and pros give you feedback is certainly worth the price of admission... Which happens to be free - what a deal! You also, hopefully, get a really nice portfolio piece by the time you're done too.

PaulHellard

07-10-2008, 09:59 PM

Hey there,

In order to include some information about each winner, and to hear their reactions, it was imperative to actually contact the winners. They heard less than 48 hours before the completed feature was posted.

If we didn't do this, the feature would be a list and some graphics. This is a no-brainer and I don't even know why we're having this conversation.

JackZhang, I suggest you turn around and congratulate the winners with the rest of us. Brilliant work guys!

JackZhang

07-10-2008, 10:04 PM

JackZhang, I suggest you turn around and congratulate the winners with the rest of us. Brilliant work guys!

I already made my statement and got my feedback. If needed, I will discuss with you in PM.

gratz to all who win.

ShekemUrShekem

07-10-2008, 11:10 PM

Once again you (you're not alone in this...) are ducking the real issue. That issue being there is no realistic chance for any obscure artist to win this challenge. Hence it needs to be restructured into challenge by CATEGORY. even pros have categories. PRO would be one of the categories, so as to differentiate between why some entries are great and some utterly suck.

Challenge by software would also be a good idea- challenges done ONLY in a specific 3d package, and not transferred from z brush to model to 3ds max to render in brazil then to after effects for comp. What sort of "challenge" is it when 10% of the competitors have big time specialized education/degrees/years of work in the field/access to 20k worth of software (including very $ plug ins) and resources (dvds full of textures, specialized shaders (v ray, brazil, etc.) and his rival does not? THIS is why it needs to be split up into categories.

No one in here is going to look upon the works of leonardo and suddenly glean the secrets of his skills and become the next leonardo; so let's leave inspiration what it is and not make any outlandish claims about how seeing this stuff makes us better. Case in point- I had occasion to watch a neville page dvd on illustration (guy who did the cloverfield monsters, if you don't know), and the guy whips up some out of this world picture in the course of 30 minutes, explaining in a way that made sense to him how it's done. Of course, he left out 95% of the steps, and that is because to him it's just that easy and basic that he doesn't realize to the rest of us it looks like magic. Same goes for Ryan Church, a guy who starts with a gray digital canvas and an hour later has painted the best looking sci fi or fantasy environment you've ever seen. I saw his dvds too...he's tremendous, but does not teach, per se, but instead shows you the concepts. I wouldn't expect him to enter any 2d challenges here and lose either. See what I'm saying? You can watch a master work, but unless you have his eye you will never learn a thing from him tht you can apply to your own work.

You can be contrary all you want, but even you understand that there must be a change and that change must be a PROs ONLY category, and a category for all the rest.

Pyke

07-11-2008, 08:11 AM

So what constitutes a pro? I run a company, have access to 11 quad core PC's, with 4 - 8 gigs of RAM, and all the bells and whistles that come along with them, as well as a modest (!!) render farm. Yet I am not in any LEAGUE as Grzegorz, or Tyson in terms of the quality of animated work I can put out. Does this make me an amateur or a professional?

That issue being there is no realistic chance for any obscure artist to win this challenge.

I cant talk about the rest of the artists, but (and sorry if this comes off as a little stalker like Tyson!) Tyson Ibele is a 21 year old, SELF TAUGHT artist, who is a film student. He has no 'big time specialized education/degrees/years of work in the field/access to 20k worth of software (including very $ plug ins) and resources (dvds full of textures, specialized shaders (v ray, brazil, etc.)'. Yet he won for Compositing and Editing.

so let's leave inspiration what it is and not make any outlandish claims about how seeing this stuff makes us better.

Following Tyson, Grzegorz, and Brajan's WIP threads made me relook at the way I did many thing. Grzegorz for his use of live action plates, Tysons compositing work (Specifically his use of Chromic Aberration), and Brajan's AMAZING rigs. Ill admit Im pretty new to rigging (ie-I know nothing!), but Ive been studying his WIP video's in awe. In fact, you can ONLY learn from people that are better than you. It pushes you to try to get to their level.

You can be contrary all you want, but even you understand that there must be a change and that change must be a PROs ONLY category, and a category for all the rest.

This same arguement has been around for many challenges. The one that springs to mind is when the BETA Testers for ZBrush had entered the Machine Flesh challenge. People were going on about how unfair it is that they were allowed to use beta software to enter into the challenge...but apart from 'cos we cant use it', there was no decent argument.

CGTalk has NEVER been a site that praises mediocracy. It attracts the best of the best, and lets us minions revel in their glory, and hopefully push ourselves even more. Occasionally someone will complain that only the 'top artists' get a front page-and honestly, why would I want to see someone get praise for something if their work isnt good enough? This is a site for hard crits, and for people that honestly want to up their game and push themselves into the professional arena..even the 'professionals' up their game with every single art piece.

ShekemUrShekem

07-11-2008, 09:03 AM

>>So what constitutes a pro? I run a company, have access to 11 quad core PC's, with 4 - 8 gigs of RAM, and all the bells and whistles that come along with them, as well as a modest (!!) render farm. Yet I am not in any LEAGUE as Grzegorz, or Tyson in terms of the quality of animated work I can put out. Does this make me an amateur or a professional?

ANSWER: An amateur, duh...hardware doesn't make you a professional, but lack of access to good hardware/software means aspiring pros will never be seen.

>>I cant talk about the rest of the artists, but (and sorry if this comes off as a little stalker like Tyson!) Tyson Ibele is a 21 year old, SELF TAUGHT artist, who is a film student. He has no 'big time specialized education/degrees/years of work in the field/access to 20k worth of software (including very $ plug ins) and resources (dvds full of textures, specialized shaders (v ray, brazil, etc.)'. Yet he won for Compositing and Editing.

ANSWER: Man, you're so way out in left field it's unbelievable. I'm talking about modelers and texture artists for gods sake...

>>Following Tyson, Grzegorz, and Brajan's WIP threads made me relook at the way I did many thing. Grzegorz for his use of live action plates, Tysons compositing work (Specifically his use of Chromic Aberration), and Brajan's AMAZING rigs. Ill admit Im pretty new to rigging (ie-I know nothing!), but Ive been studying his WIP video's in awe. In fact, you can ONLY learn from people that are better than you. It pushes you to try to get to their level.

ANSWER: Haha...keep lookin at em- they aint gonna change. I already spoke on "inspiration" and its value. Don't get carried away with it because these guys can tell you what-and-how but unless you're paying 40 grand for the gnomon classroom where they are personally showing you for 21 months then you're not going to be doing much more than looking slack-jawed at their work.

>>This same arguement has been around for many challenges. The one that springs to mind is when the BETA Testers for ZBrush had entered the Machine Flesh challenge. People were going on about how unfair it is that they were allowed to use beta software to enter into the challenge...but apart from 'cos we cant use it', there was no decent argument.

ANSWER: Again- a closed beta challenge is not even in the same realm as an open free-for-all between industry pros and rank amateurs. I said it before and I'll say it again- you can't have stephen king enter a high school short story contest, and you can't have that contest judged by r.a. salvatore, anne rice, j. k. rowling, and peter straub. Get real.

Nobody expects praise for something that is not good enough. But what they expect is a level playing field. The pros are all going to fall back on years of experience and advantages these other guys can't touch and pat eachother on the back when they win. Fantastic. If that's the sort of thing you want to be involved in, then good luck, and enjoy the beating they put on you in the next 100 challenges. It will be the same guys winning over and over again becuse at their level they have no competition and they know it. THIS is why there needs to be categories of challenges, otherwise it's over before it even starts and people can only lose so many times before they give up completely. I'm not a modeler, rather, I'm an aspiring visual effects guy, in the vein of an allan mc kay and pete draper, so I don't ever concern myself with this kinda stuff but I know unfair when I see it.

Categories is the only answer. Now, you can throw another handful of limp "but-but-buts" at me and I'll dismantle those as well. Seriously, worship these guys if you like, but see this for what it is: self-promotion veiled in a contest nobody else will ever win.

Pyke

07-11-2008, 10:18 AM

An amateur, duh...hardware doesn't make you a professional, but lack of access to good hardware/software means aspiring pros will never be seen.

Hardware doesn't make you a 'professional'...but you said that its unfair that "10% of the competitors have big time specialized education/degrees/years of work in the field/access to 20k worth of software (including very $ plug ins) and resources (dvds full of textures, specialized shaders (v ray, brazil, etc.) and his rival does not?".
So your resources don't make you a professional...but its unfair that people that enter this challenge have access to these resources....even tho they 'don't make you a professional'. Uhu....

Man, you're so way out in left field it's unbelievable. I'm talking about modelers and texture artists for gods sake...

So, what do professional modelers and texture artists have access to that amateurs don't? Extremely hi-res texture maps? (www.cgtextures.com (http://www.cgtextures.com)). Professional shader libraries? (www.vray-materials.de (http://www.vray-materials.de))? HDRI's? ( http://www.hdrimaps.com/downloads.html , http://www.evermotion.org/index.php?unfold_exclusive=84&unfold=exclusive )?
ZBrush? ( a $595 purchase and instant download. I have a coffee machine that costs more than that).
I'm not being facetious as you were-I'm being genuine here. I honestly want to know what you think these professional artists have access to that gives them a 1 up on the amateur, apart from the fact that they are good at what they do.

Haha...keep lookin at em- they aint gonna change. I already spoke on "inspiration" and its value. Don't get carried away with it because these guys can tell you what-and-how but unless you're paying 40 grand for the gnomon classroom where they are personally showing you for 21 months then you're not going to be doing much more than looking slack-jawed at their work.

MY GOSH YOU'RE RIGHT! Unless I'm actually spoon fed information there is NO way that I can learn from someone!
Have you actually read any of the WIP threads of the artists? Or did you just look at the finals and go "That's to good to be done by me".
The threads 'by the professionals' are FULL of DETAILED descriptions about how they did certain things, and got certain effects.

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=5165269&postcount=97

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=5167297&postcount=104

Just two examples here. There were a few hundred entries and threads. Im sure if you took the time to read them you would see that the artists don't simply post their final work and say 'OK-thanks guys. Was fun'.

Again- a closed beta challenge is not even in the same realm as an open free-for-all between industry pros and rank amateurs. I said it before and I'll say it again- you can't have stephen king enter a high school short story contest, and you can't have that contest judged by r.a. salvatore, anne rice, j. k. rowling, and peter straub. Get real.

The Machine Flesh challenge wasn't a closed Beta challenge...it was a CGTalk challenge...an 'open free-for-all between industry pros and rank amateurs'.

If, as a writer, you ever wanted to better yourself-perhaps entering the same contest as Stephen King would be the way to go. The equivalent of the CGTalk Challenge would be not only entering the same contest, but having Stephen King criticize your work as you go along, and being able to ask his advice on story structure and dialog.

Nobody expects praise for something that is not good enough. But what they expect is a level playing field. The pros are all going to fall back on years of experience and advantages these other guys can't touch and pat eachother on the back when they win. Fantastic. If that's the sort of thing you want to be involved in, then good luck, and enjoy the beating they put on you in the next 100 challenges. It will be the same guys winning over and over again becuse at their level they have no competition and they know it.

This is my 4th challenge that Ive entered, the 3rd Ive finished, and the first Ive gotten an Honorable Mention in. I used this challenge as a spring board to learn a little more about green screen work, and composting, as well as tracking. Ive already used this knowledge in my professional life. The next challenge, I have no doubt that my work will be even better, and the one after that, I will be even better.

Categories is the only answer. Now, you can throw another handful of limp "but-but-buts" at me and I'll dismantle those as well. Seriously, worship these guys if you like, but see this for what it is: self-promotion veiled in a contest nobody else will ever win.

You haven't dismantled anything. Honestly, you are just coming off as someone whining because they disagree with some results.

I'm certain there are many contests out there for students, or people with less experience. the CGTalk Challenge is not, has never, and I hope will never, be one of those contests.

BaronImpossible

07-11-2008, 04:33 PM

I'm having a bit of trouble locating the videos, as mentioned. Can they be linked to on the main contest page? I've found a few "making of" videos but the others seem to be elusive.

Regarding the pro vs amateur, I appreciate that 3D artists may experience a significant gap between pro and amateur in terms of software and hardware quality / availability, but as a 2D artist, if I had to compete in an "amateur" category, then forget about it. I wouldn't appreciate the inference and I wouldn't compete.

walrus

07-11-2008, 05:20 PM

I don't think anyone would even let you compete in an amatuer category, Simon: You're a pro, through and through!

While it's nice to factor in everyone's feedback and opinions, I'm not sure why we're all expending so much energy arguing with someone who's new here and hasn't even participated in a single Challenge here on CGTalk, someone who claims "I'm "unfamiliar with the contest"" and "I thought these comps were for the undiscovered who are real amateurs." As should be clear by now, these contests aren't just for amateurs. ShekemUrShekem, we get your point that you don't think it's fair, although I still feel that maybe if you actually participated in one before complaining, you might have either a different opinion or at least a better perspective. But I could also understand if you don't want to compete against the big kids and learn from them along the way (Yes, learn. See Pyke's post above.) In that case, this might not be the site/venue/competition for you. It seems that plenty of others here on CGTalk find them enjoyable and informative, and there's no way any single anything on the web is going to please everyone. Oh, well! :shrug: :D

ShekemUrShekem

07-11-2008, 06:36 PM

>>So your resources don't make you a professional...but its unfair that people that enter this challenge have access to these resources....even tho they 'don't make you a professional'. Uhu....<<

ANSWER: Doesn't make you a pro by any means, though it does make it unfair for the other 90% who don't have that access. Very simple.

>>So, what do professional modelers and texture artists have access to that amateurs don't? Extremely hi-res texture maps?<<

ANSWER: Arroway, Dosch, sub dimension, hyperfocal, etc...etc...etc... surely you jest.

>>The threads 'by the professionals' are FULL of DETAILED descriptions about how they did certain things, and got certain effects.<<

ANSWER: So are the d'artiste books, but you're not going to be cranking out marcus fenixes and boomers any time soon bro.

>>The Machine Flesh challenge wasn't a closed Beta challenge...it was a CGTalk challenge...an 'open free-for-all between industry pros and rank amateurs'.<<

ANSWER: Haha...WHAT?! you just got done saying only certain people were even allowed to USE it for the comp. How is that OPEN to ALL? Come on man, this is ridiculous again.

You may get your wish, and they will never be fair. So be it. You can beat your head against the wall all day long if you want- nobody will stop you. There is nothing you could have learned from getting in the ring with kimbo slice except how to take a beating, and that's all you're going to accomplish here.

As for me having previously entered any of these contests...get real. I'm pretty new to it all, and I can learn what I need to from the dvds and books and have no need to enter contests against guys with 10 years + experience on me and/or degrees from major institutions where they learned under guys who worked on the last five 100 million dollar hollywood blockbusters. I know you just love to argue, but get your facts straight.

I sympathize with you...I really do, but you're looking at it through eyes of a worshipper and not being rational. Hey, if amateurs are dumb enough to throw in against guys who work alongside alex alvarez and the rest, then they deserve what they get. If you walk down the tracks knowing the train is coming then you should get run over by it.

Haha- "this might not be the venue for you." You sound like some counselor at the local community college. I'm not here for YOU, so don't concern yourself with MY venue. I'm also not here for the contest. I'm on a lot of there forums and I'm mainly interested in what people are doing with rendering and particle system effects and that's it. I have no interest in character modeling or whatnot, so I'll let you keep thinking that's YOUR venue...or whatever it is you think.

walrus

07-11-2008, 07:38 PM

Actually, what I think is you're here to be a troll and start a flame war. :shrug:

ShekemUrShekem

07-11-2008, 08:22 PM

I know. Since I don't tow the line and kiss butt like a neophyte should, I am a troll. So be it. But I am a troll who speaks the truth, and there's not many of us around. I'll wear your idiotic label with pride because it means I'm not some boot licker.

By the way, it doesn't change the fact that the comp is totally unfair and it must be broken into categories so that more than guys whose names have no vowels can win. You'll come to your senses in time.

Cyborgguineapig

07-12-2008, 05:56 AM

Tom you really need a reality check. software limitations don't prevent good artists from winning competitions. Also your attitude toward learning is probably the most ignorant and disrespectful I've seen. With that attitude you will go nowhere.

ShekemUrShekem

07-12-2008, 08:54 AM

I know I'm supposed to bow and scrape before the almighty cg wizards, but...nahhhhhhh.

I'll make my own way, never fear. I'll take my own path without need of supplicating and whatnot. All the cumulative dr. phil stuff you 3 guys have laid on me thus far still doesn't change the reality of the biased and unfair nature of the competition. Just have a PRO showcase and let us just gawk at it- that would be cool. Don't make it seem like anybody who doesnt work at ILM or Pixar has a chance to win it...cuz they don't.

Oh come now, some of the top guys in any field have the worst attitudes going. My position and outlook based on facts doesn't make it disrespectful. Rather, it makes it genuine. I'm not afraid to say what others are for fear of reprisals by the 3d gods over at such and such studios in hollywood; they can get bent for all I care. Drop my name to them and say , "never let this guy in..his attitude isn't learnable!" or whatever trash you just said...I don't care because I'm not looking to work for annybody but myself anyway. Before you go spouting more garbage, yes I have produced and sold my own work in the past, so shush.

Software limitations DO limit artists from winning. Not everybody here has access to houdini at 8 thousand dollars, or maya unlimited, and so is hamstrung from the start. Michaelangelo without the right tools for the job couldn't produce worth a damn either, so that old "it's not the tools, it's the artist" plattitude needs to be retired because largely it's bull crap. You 3 refuse to acknowledge this basic fact because you're too busy trying to be THE GUY who got the pro's back. Newsflash: they don't give a damn about you. They know none of you have a snowball's chance, and don't pay you any mind at all. How about if i set up a bench press competition between you 3 and my friend who played for the atlanta falcons as offensive line; but I didn't mention just then that he is 6 feet 4 inches tall, weighs 312 lbs, and benched 315 for the most reps of anybody at his combine, and repped out 225 lbs for 46 reps. He's a PRO football player...none of YOU 3 are. So, how about you enter THAT challenge. That's faiir, no? According to your logic it's just fine. None of you would dream of actually entertaining such a losing proposition, so why do the mental equivalent? What can you learn by losing against my friend on the bench press? Going to learn the secrets of explosive vs time under tension? going to learn the secrets of cluster sets versus progressive overload? Actually, all you'll learn is how to never do something so stupid ever again. Same deal here. You're going to walk away from losing to joe blow super 3d modeler whose work has appeared at siggraph none the wiser for the experience one bit. I imagine you're like the guy who got punched in the face by tank abbot and said it was cool because it was TANK.

I can't force you to use common sense- I can only suggest it and laugh when you don't.

Pyke

07-12-2008, 09:10 AM

For the people who cant link to the final video's, I went through the threads and found the links to the final winning pieces, and honorable mentions.

Video Team Master & Art Direction
ThE-ShiFT (ThE-ShiFT) - ‘Inspection’

FULL ENTRY

http://features.cgsociety.org/challenge/uplift_universe/player.php?entry_id=91310

Video Team Excellence & Animation
Three Legged Dog Productions (moljnir) - ‘Coffee Break’

http://features.cgsociety.org/challenge/uplift_universe/player.php?entry_id=91207

Video Individual Master
and Visual FX Prize
Grzegorz Jonkajtys (grzesiekj) - ‘Legacy’

http://features.cgsociety.org/challenge/uplift_universe/player.php?entry_id=91267

Video Individual Excellence
Brajan Martinovic (SittingDucky) - ‘Sacrifice’

http://features.cgsociety.org/challenge/uplift_universe/player.php?entry_id=91313

Compositing and Editing
Tyson Ibele (ivanisavich) - ‘Matrioshka’

http://features.cgsociety.org/challenge/uplift_universe/player.php?entry_id=91307

HONORABLE MENTIONS:

Daniel Brok (FREEBUG), 'Absolutio' (http://features.cgsociety.org/challenge/uplift_universe/player.php?entry_id=91264)

(http://features.cgsociety.org/challenge/uplift_universe/player.php?entry_id=91302)Juraj Molcak (JurajMolcak), 'Adventures of Lifter Joe' (http://features.cgsociety.org/challenge/uplift_universe/player.php?entry_id=91302)

Christopher Bischoff (Pyke), 'Uplift' (http://features.cgsociety.org/challenge/uplift_universe/player.php?entry_id=91301)

Yiming Lin (Vearn), Ong Kok Ping (mahaviro) and Ishan Shukla (redCigarette), Maternity' (http://features.cgsociety.org/challenge/uplift_universe/player.php?entry_id=91299)

Daniel Sweeney (ximage) and Bruno Merz (Merz), 'The Moor' (http://features.cgsociety.org/challenge/uplift_universe/player.php?entry_id=91268)

Adrian Baluta (adib), 'David’s friend' (http://features.cgsociety.org/challenge/uplift_universe/player.php?entry_id=91298)

George Kiparissous (icedeyes), 'Uplift' (http://features.cgsociety.org/challenge/uplift_universe/player.php?entry_id=91058)

BaronImpossible

07-12-2008, 02:51 PM

Nice one - thanks!

Great work, everyone! Amazing quality!

chilombiano

07-12-2008, 08:14 PM

thanks for the links Pike!

Baron: Thanks for your last comment. never imagined that prize with what i painted. i had the idea CGS only picks the "WOW" stuff .. i was wrong.

ShekemUrShekem: I dont know where do you find that idea of people kissing Pro's asses in the forums and stuff like that. in fact, what is a pro ?. Most "Pros" i personally know are the most simple and humble people ( only a few DKheads ). some work in famous companies and others are still in the basement... What makes them what you call Pros is just Talent. and if i'm not wrong .. is talent what CGS is trying to award, no?. About software and hardware and stuff... come on! we all know here two things:

1. A guy who works in ILM or pixar and wins a challenge wont use his company farm for renders or in-house tools ( strictly prohibit ! ). That doesn't happen. If someone do that he's just being an smart ass. so what!

2. Who are you trying to convince about some guys having 8.000 $ software and others not? . Everyone has "accesz" to all tools these days ( not me of course :P). We wont see software companies chasing everyone after a challenge. educational versions are more than enough for a good result.

If someone doesn't have all the fancy hardware-software but haas the talent will always find a way to express it. if the judging is fair and smart it will see the difference.

how do you define experience categories anyway? . how do you split beetwen Pros and amateurs? .. dont try to stop the train., just be smart and take a shortcut. instead of super awesome particle calculations use a cheaper trick or adapt your goals based on resources.

btw: You right about something. you can't force me to use your common sense.

Cyborgguineapig

07-12-2008, 11:16 PM

Thanks for doing that Pyke.

Tom what you're basically saying is there is no reason to join these competitions because we don't have a single chance at winning? I guess I just don't see it that way. Everyone was an amateur once at some point, not having all the tools they needed. I'm sure every Pro went through many competitions before and lost. The difference is they didn't go and huddle in a corner telling themselves "they had no chance at all". You can't experience success without first experiencing failure, am I right? Many amateurs fail because they give in to the mindset of always being amateur. I know a few friends personally who knew not one drop of CG when I first met them, now they are working at some of the best studios in our industry. Having the right software wasn't what helped them get in those places.

I'm not in complete disagreement with some of your points, I just think you should stop dwelling on the "fairness" of the competition and focus on things you do have more power over. So you think it wasn't fair judging, okay then do something about it instead of ranting about it. Start your own amateur forum for instance where only amateurs can compete and you can make the calls over who wins. CgTalk is a pretty good system from where I see it, but if you're so inclined to challenge it perhaps you should consider instead starting your own. Thats just all i have to say.

azazel

07-14-2008, 08:37 PM

ShekemUrShekem, I feel i gotta say something. I started taking part in the challenges years ago, since the second one. It was always fun. Winning or losing, i didn't care that much. Winning something here is an awesome feeling, but actually creating the image alone is worth it. The challenge is 'free for all' - and i wouldn't have it any other way. That's the whole point. Sure, lots of people are better then me. Sure, lots of people have better software, hardware, knowledge, experience... but it's ok, it should be challenging, it is called a challenge after all. And this one had pretty level playing field when it comes to software, with the XSI offer. If I miss something, be it software, texture dvd's, or knowledge, i'll just have to find a way around it. Find alternative software, shoot my own textures, paint them by hand if needed, do it in 2d, when I can't do it in 3d, and learn what I need along the way. That's part of the fun, that's where the satisfaction comes from.

that old "it's not the tools, it's the artist" plattitude needs to be retired because largely it's bull crap

Actually, i think it is, and will be valid for a long time to come. It doesn't matter if you paint it by the hand, or use the latest 3d software.

How about if i set up a bench press competition between you 3 and my friend who played for the atlanta falcons as offensive line; but I didn't mention just then that he is 6 feet 4 inches tall, weighs 312 lbs, and benched 315 for the most reps of anybody at his combine, and repped out 225 lbs for 46 reps. He's a PRO football player...none of YOU 3 are. So, how about you enter THAT challenge. That's faiir, no? According to your logic it's just fine. None of you would dream of actually entertaining such a losing proposition, so why do the mental equivalent? What can you learn by losing against my friend on the bench press?

It's fair, as long as no one is forced to take part in it. I wouldn't win it first time. Nor would i win it the second or third time. Now give me few years of hard work and some football of my own, and who knows... the chances would be a bit more level, for sure. As long as it's fun, why not? It took me some years to win anything in the challenge here. And there were always PROs taking part. So yes, I think it's all fair.

Ok, enough ranting. Congratulations to the Winners :).

MiguelAngeloCBT

07-19-2008, 01:04 PM

When will be the winners contacted about the prizes delivery?

PaulHellard

07-19-2008, 01:36 PM

When will be the winners contacted about the prizes delivery?

Any minute now Miguel. Breathe in, breathe out. We have lives as well.

:beer:

MiguelAngeloCBT

07-20-2008, 05:30 PM

Sure! Thanks Paul! :thumbsup:

CGTalk Moderation

07-20-2008, 05:30 PM

This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.

PaulHellard

11-24-2010, 05:08 AM

This thread is re-opened for comment. 24 November 2010!

THE3DCGFXCOMPANY

11-26-2010, 02:42 AM

This is a picture I made for a project I've been making for a couple of years,
it wasn't good enough to be in the 3D stills gallery, but I still like it.
This is actually for a videogame I've been designing, called 'Division of Time',
which some of you may remember from over the years.
The premise of Division of Time is that all of earths past history has been shaped by an
evil future society. The time contamination has become so rampant that future earth men,
that we think of as gray aliens, patrol and hunt these volatile regions of time as sport.

Mainly I place this here because I'm almost certain a weaselly videogame studio is about
to try to claim the entire concept as their own ,which would be a terrible mistake!
I also made a very, very good comicbook, here's a PDF (http://www.box.net/shared/81bx2dv7rp)! :D
You can see more here: http://www.the3dcgfxcompany.com/
So far I have corresponded with the business opportunities manager for Xbox about this project!
Memorably too, as Bill Gates people forced him to reply with only one letter! :D

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/4311/dot4.jpg