Negativity in the Forum

[CTRL+X]

because every one has an opinion, they are free to express them.

Some more advandced users see shortcommings compared to other packages

other users may be happy with it and its price as is

and then there are the fanaticals that stand up and cheer for anything with the LW name on it.


I think there is just alot of anxiety among those that have not seen any major developments in the areas known as shortcommings, mixed with some skeptisism over the whole NT LUX debate and the pace of new features.....

8 is due to be seen soon... but the wait is always the hardest at the very last..and makes folks kinda anxious

:thumbsup:

[DarkLight]

I know everyone has opinions on lightwave and that is mainly a good thing, but is it really a less capable program than it was 6 months ago?

To me, it is the more negative element that seems to be comming across on the forums. I'm still new to lightwave and use it purely as a hobby, so i can't give any opinions on lightwave as a production tool.

It is just my opinion, that this forum has become more of a "lets bitch about lightwave" forum than a "lets use lightwave to create" forum.

A lot of the topics, no mater what they are originaly about, seem to turn into a lightwave bashing session.

If things stay this negative, i'll probably stop visiting CGTalk, and stick to forums where the creative element is more important than the tool.

[webfox]

Don't let attitude determine which forums you read.

Let the competence and creativity of the members be your guide.

If you only want to read happy thoughts, there's probably a Bryce, Photopaint, or Macintosh bulletin board somewhere.

<asbestos undies on>

Seriously, if you want to learn, go where the info is. Otherwise, just hanging out in bulletin boards is a monumental waste of creative free time.

[uncommongrafx]

Yeah,
I'm about to change my start page to something different.
While I understand the anxiety, this is all getting to be a bit... suicidal. God bless the opinions. It's the pooping of them that's getting on my nerves.
Let's make some purty pics. And learn how to improve them.

[Wycoff3d]

People love to bitch. People like to piss people off and that makes them happy. Use what you use and why give a s$%t what others use. LW is cool. max is cool. C4D is cool. I think people need to relax. If I dont like what they are saying I keep walking. Im much happier. I guess valium can work to!

[Howzat]

If people formed an opinion of lightwave users from this board it would probably be less than favourable... I just hope version 8 is enough to silence the paranoid doomsayers!

[twidup]

hmmm, well if I have ever come off as negative against LW, I apologize. I learned on LW, and have used and still use it to further my career.

I would just like to see it grow to actually have the ease of use of other applications, having spend a lot of production time in Maya and having been forced to use Max and Chracter Studio at a job as well. there are certian things I have found in them that are easier than in LW, and vice versa.

I think LW has a future, but its cloudy because everything that has happened over the last year. Lets hope Siggraph sheds light on that

-Todd

[iBlue]

its cuz of this i havent posted as much in the LW section, just reading.....:hmm:

[Joviex]

this thread is such a load of b*llsh!t

j/k

:applause:

[CourtJester]

Originally posted by twidup
[B]hmmm, well if I have ever come off as negative against LW, I apologize. /B]

Well, your current description does say "stirring the cauldron"... :D

I would concur that negativity is a drag, but sycophancy is worse IMO. I'd say ignore both and simply be objective about things. After all, Newtek is just like any other comapny -- beholden to its clientele. I bet they'd rather have us kvetching at them once in a while rather than silently moving to another app... don't you think?

[twidup]

smart ass..though I totally forgot about that descrip...meant more as in stiring the cauldron, creating the Uruks.

lol, how about hobbit hunter for a descript?

better CJ?

[SplineGod]

People tend to get a bit irritated when they are trying to drink their coffee while driving and then suddenly you hit bumps in the road. Everyone is wanting things to move faster then it has been which it should now that the Lux/NT debaucle seems to be over.

Also, its very important to realize that these forums, while being useful in many ways, are also the last place I would use as a barometer about how people in general are really feeling. Most LW users probably either do not frequent these forums or lurk and dont say anything. This is is the last place you want to allow to starting getting to you. :)

[wgreenlee1]

Negativity in the Forum?

Bah,no such thing!
Never have I heard such balderdash and nonsensicalness....
This thread should be deleted due to the mere mentions of declivity within these pedagogical pages of postulation.

On the other hand.......I guess everyone needs to put on a happy face.:)

[Julez4001]

well I hope the b*tching pays off.
if I see another 5000 % percent increase in IK and it really means nothing on the animation level or some useless eyecandy effect (motionblur in opengl) OR halfa$$ plugins (ie the photoshop exporter that you can't use in Aftereffects) when other obvious areas need attention, then the b*tching will start again.

Instead of rushing to get a super long tool list, just ratchet up the existing one or replace with full blown and usable apps (ie motiondesigner).

10 badass tools are better than 64 incomplete, teasers.

While maya 5 didn't give its user a whole suite, they ones they gave are complete.

[twidup]

honestly, the motion blur in GL is a good thing, it gives a good estimate on what your DOF or MB will look like without doing a full render to see.

[webfox]

Oh whadda you know? You're bathtub swirls the wrong way.

:D

[twidup]

yeah yeah, and you avatar looks like frankenhound :)

and and and, you uh, smell too
hehehe

[webfox]

I lied. Your bathtub probably chokes.

:argh:

[negativecitizen]

lightwave's atmosphere is infected of dialectic virus ,
oh my god :eek: :eek: :eek:

dont be afraid with critics,
the negativity allows to conceive parts of a phenomenon that of another form would be excluded by a kind of trivial road roller in the thought

-negative citizen:thumbsdow

[DaveW]

Originally posted by Julez4001
well I hope the b*tching pays off.
if I see another 5000 % percent increase in IK and it really means nothing on the animation level or some useless eyecandy effect (motionblur in opengl) OR halfa$$ plugins (ie the photoshop exporter that you can't use in Aftereffects) when other obvious areas need attention, then the b*tching will start again.


Although I agree with the general idea of your post, the DOF/motion blur preview is very useful. And I was under the impression that After Effects not being able to use the files from the psd exporter is AE's fault. Digital Fusion and Combustion have no problem with them.

[webfox]

I'm sorry, but we're trying to reduce server load by offending as many as possible.

You're post has been decided to be too positive.

Please forego future niceness.

[Julez4001]

Well u are the second guy on this list to mention motionblur in openGl helps you, so I take it back. I never had a need for it, its a nice feature but i think things like a better management tool for handling render output is innovative as well helpful on project to project basis.

I love that apps like jetstream FX gives u opengl but its been in limbo and I think realtime Opengl renders of particles is huge benefit as HV in sprite mode creates some nice effects that takes forever to render soemtimes and I am like, hey why don't just use whats in the opengl buffer? Not on a feature hunt but I would completion on some of the other tools that have been skipped over last 3 revs. MD is one. HV is the next one (speed it up).

Tools for project to project basis or based on multiple uses.

[CIM]

LW needs a ton of things overhauled or added before they start adding the "candy" features (painting, fluid sim., vector rendering, etc.).

[Facial Deluxe]

I think it's a normal thing, though it ruins the cool ambient a bit.

We had a long period kind of "fan-club"ambient here, where each one criticizing LW was considered as a moron. (I put it's straight, this might have been a little more moderated).
Then we had a "no news" from NT period, while the other apps evolved getting mostly all of our features (HDR, better particles, HV, IK, gosh even Max5 renders well nowadays !)
the ambient tryed to keep "we're the best, we don't care"
Then 7.5b came, then came the questions and not the answers...

Answer will be 8, I guess....

[takkun]

Facial Deluxe is totally right.
There used to be a fan-club attitude here, just about the time that Proton started working for Newtek. The opinions here at the time were unbalanced, everybody praised Lightwave, coming up with stupid slogans like "Ride the Wave of Light", or something like that, and everyone always wrote, "Lightwave rulez!".
But then at the beginning of this year the opinions were unbalanced again, but this time it was all about bashing Lightwave, this was mostly fueled by the NT vs. Lux situation and 7.5b and the release of excellent software like Maya 4.5 and 5 and XSI 3 and 3.5. Who knows what will happen in this forum after Siggraph, hopefully we will find some balance.

Love&Peace

takkun

[Facial Deluxe]

Yep, but I wouldn't like to mix Proton to the story. The guy did his job, and never IMHO pushed too much to a stupid fan club attitude. I think it's more a mass movement...

[takkun]

Yeah, Proton has been great, I'm not blaming him for anything. It's just that most of the other software forums here don't have an evangelist like we do, actually, I don't think any of the other software companies have a person like Proton. Was that for the better or for the worse. :shrug: don't know.

[Facial Deluxe]

Not doing cock licking, but I'd said better. He's a good link IMHO

[lwbob]

Originally posted by Facial Deluxe
Not doing cock licking, but I'd said better. He's a good link IMHO


If I got to this post just five seconds earlier I would have spewed cola all over the monitor. :)

[Miyazaki]

Originally posted by DarkLight
Why is the Lightwave forum here so negative lately?

This forum used to be a fun, easy going place, but now every other post seems to say that Lightwave can�t compete with package X, need feature X, needs a re-write to survive.

Many of the people who are complaining about Lightwave, are the very same people who up until recently have been telling us how great Lightwave is.

I know that Newtek released the 7.5b patch recently with some problems, is that the end of the world? EVERY single software company at some time will release a buggy piece of software. (Anyone remember windows 98me?) At least Newtek are working to resolve issues that occur.

I think Lightwave is great, but I do know there are issues that need to be resolved. Instead of idle speculation and negative comments, why don�t we wait until Lightwave 8 is unveiled at Siggraph then comment? In the meantime, why don�t we try to get the forums back to the friendly, enjoyable experience they used to be?
I think that we all have one thing in common: We want LW to improve. And to do so you have to list its lacks and lacks are mostly negative.
It brings nothing to say: "LW is the best soft". Critic and feedback is useful and essential for the developers, but it should be a balanced ratio between constructive critique and praise. Some of us are pissed off because other companies like A|W, Avid/Softimage, Maxon etc. are way faster in announcing new releases and developing new features. It`s the 'they have it I want it, too' effect.

[Nemoid]

I think after SIGGRAPH we will see many:buttrock: :buttrock: :thumbsup: :bounce: and:applause:

the fact that Lw needs improvements doen't mean its not a good piece of software!!!:thumbsup:

listening to other users opinion and expressing mine, i think can be good and constructive. not so negative at all.

ok maybe some of us was bit negative or provoking, to see if someone knows or tell something, but all was made for a better Lw future.

for now, i think we'll use the tools we currently have:thumbsup:

[Nemoid]

Originally posted by Miyazaki
I think that we all have one thing in common: We want LW to improve. And to do so you have to list its lacks and lacks are mostly negative.
It brings nothing to say: "LW is the best soft". Critic and feedback is useful and essential for the developers, but it should be a balanced ratio between constructive critique and praise.

AMEN!!!!!!:thumbsup:

[wgreenlee1]

I dunno...
About the Proton thing....


So I better just be quiet.................:wip:

[SplineGod]

Being negative is easy. Its the lazy way to view a problem.
Ive never seen a problem solved by standing around and pointing fingers at it. We know Lightwave could use improvements in many areas (which in no way implies that its suddenly useless).

Saying that a feature or lack thereof sucks is easy, sitting down and thoughtfully considering where and how it could be improved and then documenting it takes effort.

There is also a tendancy for some to also get very defensive about the software and anything produced with it. Its like nothing produced with LW or the software itself is allowed to be critiqued. Its a sign of an inferiority complex towards the software. This is also a form of negativism.

[Stone]

problem is that a forum like this doesn't represent the general attitude and toughts of the community, but rather that of a minor group of people who tend to shout and complain louder.

its those few who belives that because they have had a bad experience or for some other reason feel the need to bash a product, who can ruin any board.

"i have tried maya and now i realise lightwave stinks" - thats great if someone found a product to suit him/her better, but not really useful for anyone when posted in a thread. personly i came from max to lightwave but who would gain anything from me posting that i think lw is so much better?

enough rambling .. point is those who shout the louder gets heard, and the bad thing about that, is that now and then someone listens to those fools and belives in it.

/stone

[CIM]

"i have tried maya and now i realise lightwave stinks" - thats great if someone found a product to suit him/her better, but not really useful for anyone when posted in a thread. personly i came from max to lightwave but who would gain anything from me posting that i think lw is so much better?

Actually, that's a good thing for this or any forum. Those types of comments balance out the novice, fanboys, and biased ppl. who have a skewed view on reality.

[wgreenlee1]

Err..................
Nobody said...."Lightwave Stinks.".......

At least I havent heard it said......


Maybe instead of wishing that others say the things you wish....maybe you should listen to the things being said....

My farts "stink"......Lightwave does not "stink".....<-laymens terms.....
:wip:

[Chewey]

Originally posted by StonePXD
problem is that a forum like this doesn't represent the general attitude and toughts of the community, but rather that of a minor group of people who tend to shout and complain louder.

its those few who belives that because they have had a bad experience or for some other reason feel the need to bash a product, who can ruin any board.

"i have tried maya and now i realise lightwave stinks" - thats great if someone found a product to suit him/her better, but not really useful for anyone when posted in a thread. personly i came from max to lightwave but who would gain anything from me posting that i think lw is so much better?

enough rambling .. point is those who shout the louder gets heard, and the bad thing about that, is that now and then someone listens to those fools and belives in it.

/stone

I think you're right. Much of the complaining regarding LW is redundant. It's a bit silly how some find a way to add some type of complaint into any topic. I've also noticed a few threads that have spiraled downward due to some fairly petty ego clashes.

I find it hilarious that some feel that Newtek considers this particular forum as the center of their universe.

[Julez4001]

PROTON IS THE BEST FEATURE ADDED TO lw in a long time. He's taken obscure tutorials and added to newtek site as wella s add to a slew of new ones and really answer what he can. He is a great addition and hopefully thru him, some of our complaints will make it to the feature list (cough, cough: render que/multipass editor panel, messiah IK/expression speed, dopesheet, faster hypervoxel, jetstream FX 3.0 builtin, faster motiondesigner, *cough*wheez,cough*, faster hypervoxel again, cough* )

wow gotta work on that cold.

[Chewey]

Originally posted by Julez4001
PROTON IS THE BEST FEATURE ADDED TO lw in a long time. He's taken obscure tutorials and added to newtek site as wella s add to a slew of new ones and really answer what he can. He is a great addition and hopefully thru him, some of our complaints will make it to the feature list (cough, cough: render que/multipass editor panel, messiah IK/expression speed, dopesheet, faster hypervoxel, jetstream FX 3.0 builtin, faster motiondesigner, *cough*wheez,cough*, faster hypervoxel again, cough* )

wow gotta work on that cold.

Thanks for helping illustrate my earlier point about the complaining.

[Chuck Baker]

Originally posted by CIM
Actually, that's a good thing for this or any forum. Those types of comments balance out the novice, fanboys, and biased ppl. who have a skewed view on reality.

Using smear tactics on everyone who has a different opinion than you do reduces your credibility. And slams and insults are not useful and balance nothing. At best they may signify that someone is momentarily too frustrated to express themselves more productively, at worst they signify nothing except either a troll at play or someone without the communications skills to ever express the points they actually need to get across in order to convey what improvements to the product would help them out.

Skewed or biased views certainly come in both positive and negative flavors. A manufacturer of a product needs to know what customers like and what they dislike in a product, and in what proportion, and also what they need and in what proportion. Not that development decisions can necessarily be done to poll results, but the information is useful for consideration. The amount of time that folks who are satisfied with the product (and being satisfied if the product is meeting your needs is perfectly valid) and folks who are either not satisfied or want major changes spend trying to invalidate each other with the type of ad hominem you display above is a huge waste for all involved; efforts actually spent trying to persuade each other with reason and example from their experience and work, on the other hand, are quite useful.

[Joviex]

Originally posted by Chuck Baker
Skewed or biased views certainly come in both positive and negative flavors. A manufacturer of a product needs to know what customers like and what they dislike in a product, and in what proportion, and also what they need and in what proportion. Not that development decisions can necessarily be done to poll results, but the information is useful for consideration. The amount of time that folks who are satisfied with the product (and being satisfied if the product is meeting your needs is perfectly valid) and folks who are either not satisfied or want major changes spend trying to invalidate each other with the type of ad hominem you display above is a huge waste for all involved; efforts actually spent trying to persuade each other with reason and example from their experience and work, on the other hand, are quite useful.

Long story short, show me don't tell me. And I have yet to see from either side of the fence the proof in the pudding.

[wgreenlee1]

Originally posted by Chuck Baker
Using smear tactics on everyone who has a different opinion than you do reduces your credibility. And slams and insults are not useful and balance nothing. At best they may signify that someone is momentarily too frustrated to express themselves more productively, at worst they signify nothing except either a troll at play or someone without the communications skills to ever express the points they actually need to get across in order to convey what improvements to the product would help them out.

Skewed or biased views certainly come in both positive and negative flavors. A manufacturer of a product needs to know what customers like and what they dislike in a product, and in what proportion, and also what they need and in what proportion. Not that development decisions can necessarily be done to poll results, but the information is useful for consideration. The amount of time that folks who are satisfied with the product (and being satisfied if the product is meeting your needs is perfectly valid) and folks who are either not satisfied or want major changes spend trying to invalidate each other with the type of ad hominem you display above is a huge waste for all involved; efforts actually spent trying to persuade each other with reason and example from their experience and work, on the other hand, are quite useful.




Come on Chuck Baker......

Are we gonna see that sweet "single pass anti-aliasing"?

Bring on down.........Now 'thats' an "enhancement"!!!!:thumbsup:

[Chewey]

Originally posted by wgreenlee1
Come on Chuck Baker......

Are we gonna see that sweet "single pass anti-aliasing"?

Bring on down.........Now 'thats' an "enhancement"!!!!:thumbsup:

I'm betting that Chuck recognizes a CIM wannabe when he sees one. (quote,"a troll at play or someone without the communications skills to ever express etc.")

Isn't it time to change your avatar?

:applause:

[Miyazaki]

Originally posted by Chewey


Isn't it time to change your avatar?

:applause:
LOL
:drool:

[CIM]

These threads always turn into mud slinging contests because the fanboys and the ppl. that actually want LW to improve can't agree on the same things. :rolleyes:

efforts actually spent trying to persuade each other with reason and example from their experience and work, on the other hand, are quite useful.

There are already tons of examples on what needs to be improved. I've made it clear many times the major things I want to see improved, just as alot of other ppl.

[Chewey]

Originally posted by CIM
These threads always turn into mud slinging contests because the fanboys and the ppl. that actually want LW to improve can't agree on the same things. :rolleyes:



There are already tons of examples on what needs to be improved. I've made it clear many times the major things I want to see improved, just as alot of other ppl.

So now that you've admitted that you have made it clear many times and that there are already tons of examples why do you repeat yourself?
:rolleyes:

I think Chuck pretty much nailed you. "... a troll at play or someone without the communications skills to ever express the points they actually need to get across in order to convey what improvements to the product would help them out." :thumbsup:

It's hammer time!:wip:

[wgreenlee1]

Originally posted by Chewey
I'm betting that Chuck recognizes a CIM wannabe when he sees one. (quote,"a troll at play or someone without the communications skills to ever express etc.")

Isn't it time to change your avatar?

:applause:


Get a life chewless.....
Youre the freak'n troll....All you ever do is whine about things others say...........

All can you do is sit around till you can spew some of those meaningless,mindless chewisms.

[wgreenlee1]

Originally posted by Chewey


It's hammer time!:wip:


How original chewless.
Whats next "Cant touch this"?

[Julez4001]

Originally posted by Chewey
Thanks for helping illustrate my earlier point about the complaining.

I do what I can.
My list may be short but its rather detailed in other threads.
I put Lw thru the ringer abd I am not asking for pop candy effects, just some enhancements and management tools to get rid of the "jury" rig process I have to go thru. While maya may be long in the tooth about getting things done, it also has the layout for streamlining a process for repetitive uses.

[Chewey]

Originally posted by wgreenlee1
Get a life chewless.....
Youre the freak'n troll....All you ever do is whine about things others say...........

All can you do is sit around till you can spew some of those meaningless,mindless chewisms.

Look his feelings are hurt!:cry:

So, how's that new avatar coming along?

:scream:

[Chewey]

Originally posted by wgreenlee1
How original chewless.
Whats next "Cant touch this"?

How about,
"It's time to change my avatar time!"
or
"It's resort to name calling time cuz I've lost the argument!"

I think they both work for you perfectly!

:applause:

[wgreenlee1]

Oh yeah...hypocrisy suits you well chewless..
Personal attacks is what spews from your chewisms all the time.
You cant stand to sit there and see somebody say say something that you know and we all know to be true...but since your thin prudeish pride gets hurt you resort to trollisms....
Nobody says nothing about what you have to say and then you start off on these personal vandettas like anyone really cares to hear it.
Typical wallflower~ish behaviors...

[Chewey]

Originally posted by wgreenlee1
Oh yeah...hypocrisy suits you well chewless..
Personal attacks is what spews from your chewisms all the time.
You cant stand to sit there and see somebody say say something that you know and we all know to be true...but since your thin prudeish pride gets hurt you resort to trollisms....
Nobody says nothing about what you have to say and then you start off on these personal vandettas like anyone really cares to hear it.
Typical wallflower~ish behaviors...

So how bad does it really hurt?
:scream:
You go girl!!:cool:

Now what's up with the delayed avatar change?:applause:

[takkun]

Hey, he changed his avatar! LOL! :applause:

[Chewey]

Originally posted by takkun
Hey, he changed his avatar! LOL! :applause:

It's usually just a matter of time...

:rolleyes:

[Nemoid]

these personal attacks... what an unuseful waiste of time :rolleyes: :thumbsdow

To Chuck Baker: i'm happy people in Nt hear about what Lw community want about improving our preferred tool. keep on. we know U are working for us.:thumbsup:

can't wait till SIGGRAPH!! :drool:

[leigh]

Isn't it funny how a thread about negativity has turned into a classic example of this very subject :rolleyes:

Come on guys, please don't flame each other - it comes to no good end.

[Wycoff3d]

Typical stuff. Ive been reading alot of the older posts-new here-and I see alot of negative stuff. I think its like 55-45 negative to postive. I like to ignore the negative stuff and look for the gems of positive stuff. Every so often a cool LWer comes by and makes a great point-to me that washes away all the other crap. Garbage in garbage out. I dont let it get to me. Know whats funny-only in a month or so I already see a pattern of the people who are more negative than others. Go back and read a months worth and youll see the same pattern. Funny stuff.

[zuzzabuzz]

Everytime I read "chewless", it makes me chuckle. Same with "chewisms". Going to start using it as an adjective.

"That image is super chewless! Nice work..but it needs more..chewisms"
;)

[CIM]

I think Chuck pretty much nailed you. "... a troll at play or someone without the communications skills to ever express the points they actually need to get across in order to convey what improvements to the product would help them out."

That coming from the biggest troll on the old Cgtalk. :rolleyes:

Like I said, the major things that need changing have been known for a long time--even years--but Newtek seems to ignore certain things for whatever reasons.

If Newtek were smart, they'd go to studios that utilize LW and find out WHY they use it and WHAT they want improved. Also, they should go to Maya, XSI, etc. studios and find out WHY they don't use LW. From that, with a little bit of what the regular user wants, Newtek should be have a giant list of what needs improved.

[Chewey]

Originally posted by CIM
That coming from the biggest troll on the old Cgtalk. :rolleyes:

Like I said, the major things that need changing have been known for a long time--even years--but Newtek seems to ignore certain things for whatever reasons.

If Newtek were smart, they'd go to studios that utilize LW and find out WHY they use it and WHAT they want improved. Also, they should go to Maya, XSI, etc. studios and find out WHY they don't use LW. From that, with a little bit of what the regular user wants, Newtek should be have a giant list of what needs improved.

Oh look! Finally something new from CIM.
:applause:

Someone alert the media!!

lmao!!

[takkun]

You know, an interesting thing I read a couple months back was that Leigh and Proton (and maybe others?) get hate email from people on CGtalk. I thought that was completely absurd, why would anyone do that?

This goes back to why I'm not sure if having Proton here has had a negative or positive impact on CGtalk, maybe people send him hate mail because he's called the LW evangelist, it might not be the best idea to connect a religious title to a software community that often gets accused of blindly praising their software. But this is definitely not an attack on Proton, he's such a great guy and I'd like to meet him someday but he'd probably say, ohh, you're that guy that likes to pick on wgreenlee and CIM, and walk away. :sad:

[Chewey]

Originally posted by takkun
You know, an interesting thing I read a couple months back was that Leigh and Proton (and maybe others?) get hate email from people on CGtalk. I thought that was completely absurd, why would anyone do that?

This goes back to why I'm not sure if having Proton here has had a negative or positive impact on CGtalk, maybe people send him hate mail because he's called the LW evangelist, it might not be the best idea to connect a religious title to a software community that often gets accused of blindly praising their software. But this is definitely not an attack on Proton, he's such a great guy and I'd like to meet him someday but he'd probably say, ohh, you're that guy that likes to pick on wgreenlee and CIM, and walk away. :sad:

I seriously doubt that Proton would behave in such an uncivil fashion based on how he communicates here and in person. I don't think the evangelist title has much to do with it either. The same old tired blatherings from the nattering naybobs of negatism will get tossed at whoever takes on the front line positions at Newtek cuz that's what monkeys in the zoo do. They toss poop around to get attention. It's really pretty CIMplistic. :applause:

[dark_lotus]

We have a scapegoat. His name is CIM.

[Nemoid]

Originally posted by CIM
That coming from the biggest troll on the old Cgtalk. :rolleyes:

Like I said, the major things that need changing have been known for a long time--even years--but Newtek seems to ignore certain things for whatever reasons.

If Newtek were smart, they'd go to studios that utilize LW and find out WHY they use it and WHAT they want improved. Also, they should go to Maya, XSI, etc. studios and find out WHY they don't use LW. From that, with a little bit of what the regular user wants, Newtek should be have a giant list of what needs improved.

i quite agree that Nt have to make a serious research job like this.
its a good strategy.
i think however that the many studios wich use Lw are happy with it like is still now, while most of Maya and XSI studios don't know Lw or don't give to it its the importance because is not in their pipeline.
i also think that other apps are not perfect too, and that all users find some problems to be solved and hope that the next release will be better!!!!
so u see, there are problems. always!!

i personally hope that Lw grow and grow becoming better from year to year, but the main thing i hope is that I have to become better, from year to year!!

[tachy0n]

Originally posted by Nemoid

i think however that the many studios wich use Lw are happy with it like is still now, while most of Maya and XSI studios don't know Lw or don't give to it its the importance because is not in their pipeline.
i also think that other apps are not perfect too, and that all users find some problems to be solved and hope that the next release will be better!!!!
so u see, there are problems. always!!


You are right, but it isn't as simple as that. When a studio invests in a particular app, they are actually investing in it's future. They expect that the software will meet their needs for at least 2-3 years, and where it doesn't, then at least will be easily customised for particular use. New 'cool' features or 'perfection' of an app have nothing to with it. The way LW is now, makes it very difficult for anyone to adapt it to their current pipeline. Instead the pipeline has to be modified to adapt to the quirky way LW does some things. This is not something any studio that has invested millions in their current setup are going to do. Hence they stick to what they are already using, or look at alternatives that do fit.

As an example, you would think that the big feature of LW, ie unlimited render nodes would make it the de-facto renderer in all studios... I mean think about it... each node of PRMan costs $5000, and that of MR costs $1000, but here you have a decent renderer that you can use for free. But again it is the inflexibility and slow speed of LW that let it down. PRMan and MR are both a lot faster than LW's renderer. Often you need 2x or 3x the no of render nodes of LW to get the same performance as MR or PRMan nodes. Which means that you are spending 2, 3 times the money on LW hardware than on say MR hardware. If you consider this, $1000 cost per node doesn't seem so bad after all. Plus you get awesome flexibility, and a mature renderer with insane optimisations.

This is one area Newtek seriously need to address if they wan't LW to appeal to Maya and XSI studios.

[mattc]

CIM,

Whilst you have an interesting way of getting your message across I completely agree with you.

Your suggestion about NT visiting studios is a good one. However, I happen to know that Arnie, Larry Schultz, William and others have been doing this for some time. Both Arnie and Larry have mentioned it on one of the many anti-Lux threads that used to inhabit the newtek webboard.

Anyway, here's hoping that the workflow/UI/pluginAPI improvements that they've mentioned in reference to [8] are what we all want. I don't care about feature creep, I just want the underlying codebase to be finally repaired, fixed, merged, etc. Whether you merge layout and modeler after that is really down to personal preference. I don't care much for it, personally, but that's just me.

Kind Regards
Matt.

[Nemoid]

Originally posted by tachy0n
You are right, but it isn't as simple as that. When a studio invests in a particular app, they are actually investing in it's future. They expect that the software will meet their needs for at least 2-3 years, and where it doesn't, then at least will be easily customised for particular use. New 'cool' features or 'perfection' of an app have nothing to with it. The way LW is now, makes it very difficult for anyone to adapt it to their current pipeline. Instead the pipeline has to be modified to adapt to the quirky way LW does some things. This is not something any studio that has invested millions in their current setup are going to do. Hence they stick to what they are already using, or look at alternatives that do fit.

As an example, you would think that the big feature of LW, ie unlimited render nodes would make it the de-facto renderer in all studios... I mean think about it... each node of PRMan costs $5000, and that of MR costs $1000, but here you have a decent renderer that you can use for free. But again it is the inflexibility and slow speed of LW that let it down. PRMan and MR are both a lot faster than LW's renderer. Often you need 2x or 3x the no of render nodes of LW to get the same performance as MR or PRMan nodes. Which means that you are spending 2, 3 times the money on LW hardware than on say MR hardware. If you consider this, $1000 cost per node doesn't seem so bad after all. Plus you get awesome flexibility, and a mature renderer with insane optimisations.

This is one area Newtek seriously need to address if they wan't LW to appeal to Maya and XSI studios.

if i have to found a small company, then i'll choose Lw, because its cost compared to its power is very low. i think also learning curve is more smooth than other apps.
i notice that in Digital Domain they still use Lw, and hire users expecially for modelling tasks. Why keeping to use it, and also hiring new people? that's an interesting question. u see, Lw is in their pipeline.
most of big companies use renderman for the final rendering so that the price for rendering nodes its not so important.

i dunno about integration in mixed pipelines. surely Lw has a different structure than other apps, but i think it can be integrated. a lot of people model in Lw and animate in Maya, for example.

i said many times it requires a rewrite, a new evolution and strategic and clever enhancements, but if i think Lw is powerfull
however.

i think that if i have to change my pipeline because Lw is faster , then there is something wrong....with the other app pipeline!!!!!:D

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