Tracer lagging behind traced objects

[Zmurowski]

Rather than the order you put in in OM you should check if the limit of the tracer is set to none. If it isn't, it is probably set to start in which case the lag would occur.

[Per-Anders]

Does it lag in render too? If so can you share the file?

[LemonNado]

Maybe it's related to this:
http://www.base80.com/index.php/2007/01/29/p153
Lemo

[ChrisCousins]

Hi Per - yes, it does lag on render. Baking the Cloner helped but not entirely. I'll have to slim the file down for sharing, will post back later...

Does it lag in render too? If so can you share the file?

[ChrisCousins]

Hi again - here's (http://www.chriscousins.plus.com/files/dump/mograph_tracer_lag.zip) a stripped down file showing the problem.
As I mentioned, baking helps but not fixes the problem.

Cheers - Chris

[Per-Anders]

Thanks Chris, I see what you mean, hope you don't mind i've forwarded the scene to Maxon.

[ChrisCousins]

Thanks Chris, I see what you mean, hope you don't mind i've forwarded the scene to Maxon.

Hi Per, sending to Maxon was going to be my next move so thanks for confirming the problem and also taking the time to send it on.

[base80]

I found a solution to the redraw problem in your file.
It is a dirty trick but it works
I added a Vibrate tag to the Tracer set to pulse a minute distance.
This triggers the Tracer to put its points where they belong.

http://www.base80.com/mograph/tracer/tracer-vib.gif

[ChrisCousins]

Dirty tricks are fine as long as they work, and this one seems to ;) Thanks for this taking the time, it's really helpful.

[rscurry]

I'm having the same problems but the dirty work around of putting a vibrate tag on the tracer doesn't seem to working for me. I've tried putting it on the tracer itself, the sweep nurb, and the cloner but still a lag exists. Anyone have any ideas?

On a side note I'm getting really annoyed by the many lag issues in C4D like with the constraint tag, etc.

TIA!

Rich

[Horganovski]

Not sure about the tracer issue, but most lagging issues with constraints are just a matter of adjusting the priority to get the calculations happening in the right order.

HTH,
Cheers,
Brian

[rscurry]

Not sure about the tracer issue, but most lagging issues with constraints are just a matter of adjusting the priority to get the calculations happening in the right order.


Yeah you are right about the priority order in general. Still though I find even when set properly there tend to be problematic lags from time to time. What makes this tracer lag issue particularly annoying is that it's been around since at least v10 and still no fix. I wonder if it works right in the v11 demo. Not to mention the fact that there are no priority settings for mograph.

[Per-Anders]

It doesn't work in the R11 demo, the fix was resolved after the demo was compiled. Priority wouldn't make much sense on the MoGraph tracer, it's not an expression but a generator that's dependent on other objects (which also have no priority).

[rscurry]

So the bug being the case, does anyone have any ideas on how to get the dirty fix that Base80 figured out to work for me? Is it working for anyone else? Seems like Chris got it to work somehow.

Thanks!

Rich

[base80]

Is your file not the same as the one I solved?

[ChrisCousins]

So the bug being the case, does anyone have any ideas on how to get the dirty fix that Base80 figured out to work for me? Is it working for anyone else? Seems like Chris got it to work somehow...

Hey Rich, I didn't want to seem ungrateful to Base80 at the time, but the vibrate tag only helped the situation, it didn't solve the problem entirely. A good dose of scene motion blur, depth of field and larger atoms meant that any lag got swallowed up in blur.

Glad this got fixed in R11, looking forward to that.

http://homepage.mac.com/chrissyboy/.Pictures/dump/ignite_04.jpg

[rscurry]

Is your file not the same as the one I solved?

Not quite.... Since I was having the same problem with a similar setup, I took Chris's original file and tried your vibrate tag solution to test and then posted that. But like Chris says it only helps but doesn't quite solve it as there is still a lag (which you can see in the file I posted.) Unfortunately with the project I'm working the design doesn't allow me to hide the tracer lag in motion blur, large clones, and lights.

I need it to work the way tracer was designed to. It's a quite basic technique and one of the maxon advertised examples. I truly love Cinema 4D but I really hate it when I design boards using a particular function and sell that through but when I go to animate the same scene a bug in the very same function prevents me from accomplishing my job. Arrgggh!

Does anyone know if there is a way to bake an animated tracer? I'm trying to think of every possible workaround even if it's a bit dirty. This animation is due tomorrow and it's entire foundation is based on tracer.

Thanks
Rich

[51M0N]

Awesome render Chris. I didn't expect something so beautiful out of that scene.

[rscurry]

Yeah Chris that render looks nice. My clones have to move so fast the lag of tracer is like halfway across the screen so I can't hide it at all.

I tried using the Auto Redraw hoping that would force c4d to update but still no luck. I've also tried setting up two different cloners, one with nulls (for the tracer) and another with spheres that was then offset in time using the delay effector hoping the two would then match but that doesn't really work either because of the way the effector functions. Are the any other ways to force c4d to update or mograph in particular? Xpresso perhaps?

Thanks
Rich

[heathivan]

Another animation bug, another workaround. A decent way to solve this problem is to render out your motion at a higher frame rate. While this will not entirely close the gaps caused by the lagged referencing of the Tracer object, it will decrease them as you increase your frame rate. Then simply retime in AE.

Drawbacks: This might cause other issues if you are using dynamic effectors and tags. And of course increases your rendertimes.


---h

[rscurry]

Thanks Heath... I'll give it a shot. Thank god I'm not dealing with a render heavy scene. I'll let you know how it goes.

Rich

[ChrisCousins]

Yeah Chris that render looks nice. My clones have to move so fast the lag of tracer is like halfway across the screen so I can't hide it at all.

Thanks people, it was quite an odd job but seemed to go down well with all concerned, there were several edits here's a mid-length one:

Movie (4Mb) (http://homepage.mac.com/chrissyboy/.Movies/roh/Ignite_26s_half.mov)

The scene motion-blur might have actually helped with location, not just hiding the problem - maybe slicing the frame progression into pieces means the locations are calculated with greater accuracy - here's a much faster section, note the bottom left of the frame, all the motion still holds together.

http://homepage.mac.com/chrissyboy/.Pictures/dump/ignite_05.jpg

Cheers - Chris

[51M0N]

Great stuff, and very intuitive use of mograph's tools. Well done Chris!

[Aurety]

Really nice work Chris !

[base80]

Please do not say my sollutions are OK when they are not. I love to spend all my free time solving this kind of problems. I can not change the nature of C4d but with a little efford I can change how things work. My trick solved the problem on my computer and I thought it did for any off us.

[rscurry]

Another animation bug, another workaround. A decent way to solve this problem is to render out your motion at a higher frame rate. While this will not entirely close the gaps caused by the lagged referencing of the Tracer object, it will decrease them as you increase your frame rate. Then simply retime in AE.

Drawbacks: This might cause other issues if you are using dynamic effectors and tags. And of course increases your rendertimes.



Ok so I tried a few different frame rates along with a few other things and ended up with something that worked.

First I used the mograph cache tag to cache all of the cloners. Then without changing the project frame rate from 30, I changed only the render setting frame rate to 60. Once rendered there was a lot of jumpiness between the clones and the tracer, BUT once retimed back down to 30fps all the lag was gone, everything was in sync, and it all looked great. So good solution Heath! Thanks.

Rich

[heathivan]

I tried to click my post as useful, but CGTalk scorned me for being narcissistic.:blush: Hehee!

always glad to help :wavey:

----h

[Sneaker]

could it be that the lagging is fixed in R11.008?
I thought I had another working solution, but any of the files are fine in R11.

-Michael

[base80]

My experience is that R11 is worst than 10.5
My workaround don't do the job. There are issues here.

[JoelOtron]

WOW--great work Chris!

Actually working on a project now using tracer in a similar manner.
Luckily things are mostly static.

[Per-Anders]

My experience is that R11 is worst than 10.5
My workaround don't do the job. There are issues here.

Do you have an example showing this? R11 has the fix for this bug, it should need no workaround (though bear in mind as I said that the early demo was produced before the bug was fixed, so it wont be fixed in that version, instead it will be exactly the same).

[base80]

Yes I have a file that did great in r10.5, and doesn't work in R11. I have send it to fluffy who relayed it to the source (maxon). And it is a bad bug in mograph.
The file concerns a cloner not adapting to a deformed spline. No problems in R10.5 and no movement in R11.
http://www.base80.com/tips/R11/cloner%20test%20.c4d.zip
This is probably unrelated to the subject at hand, sorry.

[Per-Anders]

Hi, that's a different issue unrelated to this thread (which is about cloning on a traced spline, not a deformed one), the bug has been fixed and will be released in a forthcoming update.

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