Animators Survival Kit 16 DVD Set now available!

[mmkelly011881]

SSSSSSSOOOLD!

FINALLY!! WOO WOOO

[BigPixolin]

When was that made it looks ancient?

[lostpencil]

I went to Richard's Master Class back in 2000 and it was totally worth it (I had to drive 25 hours straight to get to Los Angeles). I can't stress this enough, if you want to be a professional animator (and even if you are already a professional animator), you don't want to pass this up. The book is great as a reference, but he really makes it come to life in the Master Class. Now having them combined - with the animated clips - well... I'm preordering now. Even as a collector set... this is awesome. It really doesn't matter when it was recorded - the principles and examples are timeless. As an added bonus, Dick is quite entertaining!

[raffael3d]

the price is just ridiculous tough:

Our Price: USD 1,203.92

[Ollarin]

That's such an awesome set. Though, I'd need to sell one of my kidneys to get it. :/

[lostpencil]

That's cheaper than when I went to the actual class (and that was 8 years ago)... plus there were no animated samples (that you could frame through a frame at a time). Personally, that class was priceless to me - and so being able to go through it again and again is worth it. There was only so much I could absorb in the weekend. The book is a great addendum to it all. I guess it all depends on how much you are willing to pay for your animation education.

[TylerAZambori]

I guess I'm m stuck with books then.

[SheepFactory]

It might sound expensive but taking a animation class at a college is as much if not more expensive and I can almost guarantee watching these vids will be more beneficial.

[TylerAZambori]

It might sound expensive but taking a animation class at a college is as much if not more expensive and I can almost guarantee watching these vids will be more beneficial.

disclaimer: potentially off-topic stuff:

It's fine if your income is sufficient and your'e not dealing with a dog operation
coming up, car repairs and another dog having dental problems, then having to go
to a county supported clinic to even get the medical help I need for my self.
It's fine if you're already working in the industry and making good money, but
not if you're working a low paying job and struggling.

Then the statement: "oh it's all how much it really matters to you" comes off
as slightly narrow.

Taking a class at the local community college does not cost $1000 something,
it's more like $300.

However, I would have nothing against working from the book. I know it's a good
one, and I have it on my list.

[w1as]

EUR 852.28?

The Animator's Survival Kit is a very useful book, but even if I bought these DVDs I would be scared to touch them. I would probably hang those DVDs on the wall next to my collection of classic bamboo fly fishing rods.

I would definitely love to get my hands on the DVDs... Now, I must get ready to live in my car for the next month.

[supergrover]

In my opinion Richards book is the best one out there. I have to say however that I think these DVD's are way overpriced. It's not a course in animation - it's a masterclass. With all due respect it's overpriced. It's a recording for Gawds sake! Still like many others I would love to get my hands on these but I won't be buying at this price.
It's just a shame that it can't be as accessible, ( ie. affordable ), as his excellent book. If they lowered the price , ( maybe a third of what they're asking ), they'd probably sell 20 times the number but hey I'm no accountant and Mr. Williams obviously has expenses.

[JoshBowman]

While it's exciting that the masterclass is now available on DVD, there is no way I will ever pay that much for it. AU$600 MAX as far as I'm concerned. It's recorded once and it's not like he has to travel to every single persons house who buys it so why should we be paying for it as if he is.

[marciowski]

This may be pretty good!
I hope I can have it here one day.

The book is the best one. Much better than any other one in my opinion.

[Ollarin]

That's cheaper than when I went to the actual class (and that was 8 years ago)... plus there were no animated samples (that you could frame through a frame at a time). Personally, that class was priceless to me - and so being able to go through it again and again is worth it. There was only so much I could absorb in the weekend. The book is a great addendum to it all. I guess it all depends on how much you are willing to pay for your animation education.

It certainly is worth it, I have no doubt it's worth every penny, though it still doesn't deny the fact that the price is out of reach of some people.

If i had that money, I'd order it this very moment.

Anyway, was just watching the sample clips, and this DVD looks awesome! He seems like such a fun teacher! :D

[R10k]

You can buy Hollywood Camerawork for about US$280 these days. That's a well-priced killer DVD set. This... not so much.

[SheepFactory]

You can buy Hollywood Camerawork for about US$280 these days. That's a well-priced killer DVD set. This... not so much.


Would you mind explaining how exactly hollywood camera work has anything whatsoever to do with animators survival kit, or animation?

[Geta-Ve]

the price is just ridiculous tough:

Our Price: USD 1,203.92

Agreed. As great as the DVD's might be there is no way in hell I would pay 1200 dollars for them. I didn't even pay 1200 dollars for my cintiq. :surprised

[R10k]

Would you mind explaining how exactly hollywood camera work has anything whatsoever to do with animators survival kit, or animation?

It doesn't directly (although animation isn't all about characters), but it reflects a fairly common pricepoint for a set of high quality 'best available' training dvds. In other words, it was my way of pointing out that super-high quality training doesn't need to be set at stupidly high pricepoints. Apologies for pulling an example out that's a bit OT... I couldn't think of any other animation training that'd be as highly respected.

To some people these dvds will be like watching an interview with God, so... I guess they can charge whatever they like.

[samiattar]

Now that we have this in video ... reading is officially obsolete

[lostpencil]

I don't know about 'fairly common pricepoint'... the cost of Animation Mentor (http://www.animationmentor.com/) and Jason Ryan's (http://www.jasonryananimation.com/)tutorials seem to me in the same ball park as Richard William's DVDs.

If I'm not mistaken Mentor ends up being around $225 per training hour (the added cost covering the added bonus of having critiques). Jason Ryan's advanced tutorials run around $100 per training hour. And Richard William's DVDs appear to cost around $100 per training hour. If you buy all of Jason's tutorials you end up paying $1000USD.

All of these, in my humble opinion, would be classed as high end training.

[Emmanuel]

Your LightWave training I once purchased helped me as at least as much as having the survival kit on my desk to guide me through thze classic principles.
Exercise is the best teacher, and I can hardly see what the Survival Kit DVDs could actually *add* to the very entertaining learning experience is the book already.
And I doubt they will actually replace the book, because for me its far easier to take the book and open a chapter than having to take the DVDs.

[XminusOne]

I would love to get these....mostly just for collecting....unfortunately, these are a just a bit spendy for me. Yes I know that the price is competitive, I don't have a problem with the price. I just can't afford it. Kinda sucks.

[biliousfrog]

I can see both sides of the price argument but I'm falling much more towards the "expensive" side. As a collectors item I can understand the cost but personally, I would have expected a cheaper set for the people that the collection is aimed towards...those learning animation.

The reason that special edition DVD box-sets are more than regular, single DVD editions is that one is aimed for collectors and "fans" and the other for a) wider appeal and b) to make more money. If the only DVD's that could be bought cost £50 but included a nice box and extras DVD there would be very few sold.

...so perhaps a simple set of DVD's in 4 x 4xDVD cases with no frills and a much lower price tag might be nice for the people that want to learn (students) rather than collect.

...or the other option is to wait for the copies to appear on torrent sites and ebay.

[EDIT] I just want to clarify that I'm not supporting the last option but it is likely to be the most obvious option for those of limited funds.

[R10k]

Thanks for the correction, lostpencil. Against things like AM and Jason Ryan's tutorials, the pricing of these DVDs isn't completely crazy. That said, I would agree with others that the pricing model doesn't seem to fit the intended target audience very well.

[Larry_g1s]

(wrote this on the other thread same topic)

I'm not done with the book yet, about half way through, and have really enjoyed it. I don't think the price is anything to sneeze at, but that said...I think it boils down to that old adage, "knowledge is power". I think what you're getting and who you're getting it from needs to be taken in consideration. I'm currently going through Jason Ryan's (www.jasonryananimation.com (http://www.jasonryananimation.com/)) training, which is right about the same price, but again, when you consider what kind of info. you're getting, from someone in, or who has been, in the industry, it's worth it.

Long story short, price becomes more of "what you get" vs. just "how much". But with price tag as such, it does make one have to really consider it before purchasing.

[Buexe]

Exercise is the best teacher.
:thumbsup: very true!

[lostpencil]

I wouldn't necessarily say that exercise is the best teacher. Exercise/practice is the best way to improve on what you already know. If you exercise something either incorrectly or if you exercise something that is incorrect - you won't get ahead at all - in fact you will be reinforcing bad habits.

[SheepFactory]

I agree with Paul. You are paying $1200 for years of experience he is passing along. Yes it is expensive and yes it should be cheaper in my opinion too. But all things considered there is just no substitute for it.

I don't think I can afford to get it right now either but I will see if I can find animators who are also interested in it and share the cost.

[JYoung]

I don't think it's overpriced for the amount of info you get, but I also don't have 1200 lying around for dvds. I'd be willing to split the cost with some people...

[TylerAZambori]

Thanks for the correction, lostpencil. Against things like AM and Jason Ryan's tutorials, the pricing of these DVDs isn't completely crazy. That said, I would agree with others that the pricing model doesn't seem to fit the intended target audience very well.

I agree, NO it does not.

[Buexe]

I wouldn't necessarily say that exercise is the best teacher. Exercise/practice is the best way to improve on what you already know. If you exercise something either incorrectly or if you exercise something that is incorrect - you won't get ahead at all - in fact you will be reinforcing bad habits.

If that is your opinion, I don´t have a problem with that. And I don`t want to deny the fact that a teacher as a source of knowledge and/or experience can make you know/see things you haven`t before. But it is my firm belief ( and I don`t expect anybody else to follow me ) that the skill comes from the practice, because there is a big difference between knowing how something is done and actually being able to do it. Whether one tries to become a master in long-distance running, Kung-Fu, life-drawing or animation. The level of practice should give you a considerable advantage in what one is trying to accomplish. It is not everything, but the most imprtant in making one sensitive towards the details that make the differnce between "okay" and "awesome". Again, this is just my belief, if your`s is different, no problemo.

In this context I don`t want to make that sound as if I don`t belief that Richard William is a great source for knowledge/experience. And even though theses DVDs cost a lot of money, I`m sure they are worth it. But they don`t spare you the pain/joy of applying this knowledge in order to make it run through you veins and make you a better artist.
Cheers :arteest:

[switchblade327]

So are these gonna show up on Netflix or what? :)

[Boone]

The biggest reason for handing over the cash would be if you are struggling with animation and have not read the book. For this you could use any form of animation to try out the examples. This is not an "Animation for <Insert App here>" product which merely tells you how to use the tools for animation but just how to animate - and thats something you can transfer to another form of animation.

I remember reading in Timothy Albee's CGI Filmmaking book that as you become a better animator the less you rely on fancy animation tools. And I 100% believe that. Take the new Blender Foundation film "Big Buck Bunny" for example. I dont believe its final effect is because of the software but more to do with the fact that they gathered the best animators who just so happened to use Blender. Blender is more advanced today than the packages they used back in the early 90s to create Jurassic Park. But why did they still produce high quality animation back then? I'll tell you why - its because of the sheer amount of animation talent they had on that production. Phil Tippett's name in the credits alone should convince you of this. This is a lesson seldom learned by newcomers to 3D animation. The first thing they blabber about is "what package do I learn?" followed by "Maya is so expensive!".

Whilst the newbie is so focused on wasting time and money with weighing up what is the best software to use(you can only answer this question after you have used several packages anyway!) they are not actually doing any animation. Meanwhile - back at the Ranch - the kids pissing around with the webcam, some freeware and their lego kits are making more progress! Infact, these kids are more likely to see the "cool factor" in the free 3D apps given away on a magazine cover cd more than the fool obsessing over which is better: Max or Maya?

Its not brain science getting started: MSPaint and a cheap/freeware program to turn a load of bitmaps into a video file. For the beginner who is about to enroll for a course that only teaches a certain app - this boxset makes much more sense instead. You can teach yourself how to operate a 3D app if you put your mind to it, but not so easily how to animate for which this boxset puts right.

So for the beginner, this is the best thing you could buy right now. Quit whinging, get a job and save up for it. Then, once you have done animation without all these flashy apps you will then appreciate what even a low-end animation package can do.

As for me, I've read the book and know what happens so its not as beneficial to me!:D

[mdee]

MSPaint and a cheap/freeware program to turn a load of bitmaps into a video file. F

You can also use corners of your chemistry books and flip through them :) (that's how it started for me, I won't tell what kind of animation it was ;) ).

I agree that price is steep, but it's worth it. Personally, I won't be buying at the moment, but I hope that it will be avaliable for more than a couple of months, so I can save for it.

p.s. It might sound silly, but I photographed lots of animations from the book (webcam) and assembled them, so I could see how it moved, but of course I didn't have any commentary.

[Boone]

You can also use corners of your chemistry books and flip through them :) (that's how it started for me, I won't tell what kind of animation it was ;) ).
Ahhh those were the days!:)

[Pinoy McGee]

I learned a lot about animating from this video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=8cgdHzD2T1U

It's FREE!

[Julez4001]

Interesting a lot of folks have mentioned that they are willing to go in, buy and share the DVDS.

I think they should asjust the price so ppl wouldn't have to share but thats just me.

[Buexe]

I learned a lot about animating from this video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=8cgdHzD2T1U

It's FREE!

LOL, as I said exercise makes the master :buttrock:

[R10k]

Yes, but good training can make you a master quicker :D

[Julez4001]

NOVEMBER 17TH -------------------- DDDDDAYUM!


What a TEASE!

[toontje]

This product isn't aimed at the folks that just downloaded POVRAY and rendered a chrome ball over a chequered surface.

If you are thinking "I want to make a living as an animator soon" or "my life's mission is to make an animation", then this product is really a good option to consider besides all the facalities there are nowodays to learn animation. Yes, it is a lot of dough, but expensive (read overpriced) it is not.

[AnotherMatt]

PS: Someone for the love of god help him design a better site. I cant find a way to click on the promo links. It is like some sort of puzzle game to navigate that site.


The navigation for theanimatorssurvivalkit.com has been updated - sorry for the inconvenience. (I'd always moved my mouse down into the sub-menu then across, not straight from 'Watch' to 'Promo' so hadn't come across the problem. Poor user testing on my part).
Hopefully it was a specific problem and not dislike of the site as a whole...

[PieterVH]

Hi guys,


Just a few more words about this set. We've just come back from the Annecy festival where we introduced the DVDs and screened segments of them. The response there has been nothing short of amazing! Thanks to all who stopped by at the stand, the screenings and the sunny space inbetween!

Obviously there were a lot of questions, and quite a few to do with the price - although none as passionate as some in this thread (with one exception) - so I feel I want to try and make a few things somewhat clearer.

First of all, this is NOT simply Richard Williams' masterclass transferred to DVD and then released as is. Apart from this representing about 50 years of experience condensed into 16 lessons, it also is several years of full time work with a team of people.

What's on there is humongous: it's the entire book, plus a 4 day masterclass, plus a whole lot more! So most of the book is animated (and beautifully so I must say!) and quite some extras because the masterclass is actually a lot subtler than the book (you get to see how not to do things as well).

Also, you get Richard himself really nailing down the principles of animation in a way that is simply impossible without actually showing it. Being a member of the team I have the privilege of seeing all this as it's being created and I can assure you the amount of knowledge this represents is mindboggling.

Going from the masterclass and the book to the DVD lessons, all the hard work is done for you, which means that we've trimmed all the fat from the material thanks in a large part to a fantastic editing job by Don Fairservice. So what you get is 16 lessons that are not only extremely efficiently presented but also equally dense. It will take you a good few viewings before you take everything in so you'll not be wasting any time there.

It doesn't stop there. ALL of the animations present in the classes are available for separate viewing on the DVD. At 24 fps. Not 25, not 29.97. Doesn't matter where you play them. And frame by frame. Those animations can be navigated using shortcuts, actually making it work more like a web page rather than the usual frustrating experience of going left - right - up - up - right to get anyplace. Animations can be looped, played back-to-back, etc. Lots of clever stuff in there to simply make sure you want to use it. It's as perfect as a learning tool as it can get and in my opinion it actually beats the book in some respects as a hands-on reference!

(Obviously ripped and recompressed copies -which we're afraid will turn up- will lose all that functionality, resulting in a very crippled version of the original. Sorry. :))

What the price is concerned people seem to stare themselves a bit blind on the non-discounted one and the one including VAT (which doesn't even apply to most people here). What is perhaps not so clear from the site, admittedly, is that bulk buy deals are available and will be looked at on an individual basis, making it possible for schools to bulk buy for their students, companies for their employees, and anyone else is free to write to enquiries@theanimatorssurvivalkit.com to find out more.

I would just like to end with the words of Neil Boyle, the other animator (aside from Richard) who worked on this. He told me that at Richard's studio, they reckoned it took people on average about 4 to 5 solid years to learn everything that was needed to go from junior assistant to senior character animator. All of that is now condensed in those 16 lessons. There is no more.

Hope this clears up some questions. I'm lurking here quite regularly, so please don't hesitate to ask more.

Cheers,
Pieter.

[cookepuss]

I do understand that what's being provided in this set is a massive value. It get it. Taking classes in person and such would indeed be more costly. Even remotely, ala Animation Mentor costs more. However, at current exchange rates, almost $1,500 is inexcusable for the target audience.

One of the reasons why people flock to the book is because it is instruction from a master without the wallet busting prices associated with oversimplified university classes. That made the book perfect for students and pros alike. At 745gbp, though, they've priced it outside the reach of their audience. Somebody who's already a seasoned animation pro and could be able to afford this might not necessarily benefit from the bulk of what's being offered here. It might be a nice reference, but not necessarily an indispensable and easy to flip through resource (compared to a book on your desk.)

Somebody who really could benefit from it, like a student, might well have to actually sell their primary 3D app.Yeah. They could stick to the book if money's the issue. I get that. $20-$30 VS $1,500(usd). Makes sense for a student.

Still, how one could not see this price as being a bit extreme is beyond me. Even at the Gnomon level price of $79usd per DVD price, this thing is expensive. I wonder if combining the original book with a couple of the higher quality, 3rd party character animation training DVDs out there might simply be as effective, yet cheaper.

Seriously. The book can be found for less than $20 on Amazon. Tack on 3 or 4 of the best CA training DVDs out there, which can be quite spectacular by themselves. Total, you'd be hard pressed to come up to $300usd. A far cry from the nearly $1,500usd cost of the above. That's some scary pricing.

I don't mean to insult Mr. Williams or anybody involved. I know that it took time to craft. I know that it is worth a buttload in itself. I know that it is worth far more to those unable to get to an appropriate school. I simply don't see how people can't come up with suitable, if not superior, substitute options.

The material, I'm sure, is bound to be of the highest quality. Burgeoning animator will jump up and down and do a dance of joy. Those looking to learn the craft, at a price that won't cause them to sell a kidney, might find it to be a bit elitist. The price is placing the knowledge itself outside of the hands of the masses. I've always been a fan of the Socratic notion that knowledge should be shared and never hoarded. The pricing here flies in the face of that. (The "Structure of Man" DVD set springs to mind, as an arbitrary example of sharing knowledge at an artist friendly price.)

Think about this. You're a newbie. Maybe you're even an fine arts major in college. You're up to your ears in student loans. You're eating noodles every night for dinner. You're working with second hand books. Your art classes are doing the job, but not necessarily for your desired field, animation. So, if you've barely got enough money for subway fare, imagine your reaction at the price for this set. Yeah. It's probably a dream set. However, it's far out of your price range. You'll already have to have some major cash to afford this. Unless you're already a pro or a rich uncle just died and left you in his will, you're sh** out of luck.

It might be great for the Animation Mentor student, who's already paying far more than that. However, the rest...

Like the idea of this set. I really do. Richard's book has been sitting on my desk for years now. I just don't like the price of the DVDs, regardless of the value added content. Also don't like the fact that it can't be purchased by individual chapter, at least not as far as I can see. Had people been allowed to pick & choose the volumes they wanted, this might have felt like less of a financial burden.

Plus... 40 minutes per lesson? REALLY!?! Less than an hour's worth of actual instruction per lesson for nearly $90usd? Really? (Yes, I understand the master class inclusion, btw. Just noting the lesson length.)

[R10k]

I'd like to second cookepuss' thoughts.

I don't know. Sometimes I wonder what the intention is these days when it comes to training materials. Is it to keep the business going, or teach people? If it's to teach people, do something bold like make the teaching available to those who want to be taught at an early age. Drop the price, increase the sale numbers... heck, there might even be a balance there to keep the business rolling as well as it would with higher pricing.

[cookepuss]

I'm not asking everybody to agree with me. I know that a great many people might not. I'm just trying to establish a single point of view.

Growing up, I was really poor. Not normal poor. Darn near homeless level poor. I was lucky that my family could make the sacrifices to send me to the schools they did. Something like this DVD set, priced at a scheme that the industry (sadly) takes for granted, would have financially set my back for the whole year and maybe then some. Today, something like this wouldn't faze me. I spend more money on that for non-essentials. Back then though....

I'd imagine that there are artists here who are in similar predicaments.

Everything costs money. I get it. What I also understand is that knowledge is power. Placing the knowledge outside the grasp of the poor struggling students only manages to remove that level of empowerment. Basically, if you've got the money, you can be knowledgeable. If you don't, you'll have to settle ignorance, or at least less knowledge. This is not necessarily a criticism of this set, rather one of the DVD training scheme and even the worldwide educational systems as a whole.

Back on topic....

I think that Richard's book is invaluable. It should be on every animator's desktop, regardless of skill level. I'm only afraid that this "animated" edition of his classic tome will become more of a luxury item or novelty instead of a staple. I can imagine every artist having the book. I can only imagine a very select few owning the DVD set.

That's a shame. Richard, and those like him, have so much to give to the industry. Unfortunately, this set has been priced outside the reach of those intended to benefit most. If this DVD set is as good as it claims to be then everybody should have it. At this price, so very few can.

[R10k]

At the risk of sounding like someone who agrees with everything you say cookepuss, well said.

[lostpencil]

What kind of logic is being taught in school? In one breath you say that the set has massive value, and then the next breath you say the price is inexcusable? Ever hear of a contradiction?

Moreover, how does the following logic work?

1) The material is very good.
2) Therefore it should be owned by everyone.

Just because it is good, it doesn't necessarily follow that it should be owned by everyone. You have a few premises missing in that argument. You somehow assume that all good things should be easily made available to all people. Right - that would make for a society that values hard work, people's time, and dilligent effort (exit sarcasm mode).

I can't believe what I'm reading from you people. Richard Williams doesn't owe anything to anyone. He goes out of his way to provide the training material - it's his material, it's his experience he is sharing, he can set the price.

I hate the fact that the internet is creating a society where everyone expects everything for dirt cheap or free. Where does that stupid idea come from? That just devalues everything. If you don't think the value of the material matches the price, no one is forcing you to buy it.

If you are too poor to purchase it, then see what kind of deal can be made on a bulk purchase. If you are still too poor to purchase it, then so be it. Not all of us can afford a luxury vehicle... do the best with what you can afford - buy the book and stop whining.

[Buexe]

Okay, so you are operating on a limited budget, right? Guess what, 99% of the folks here are operating with a limited budget.

[R10k]

Ever hear of a contradiction?

That wasn't a contradiction. He was talking about value in terms of what the information is (not how much it costs) and that the pricing in relation to the intended target audience was inexcusable.

He goes out of his way to provide the training material - it's his material, it's his experience he is sharing, he can set the price.

Yes, and this is a forum. We're allowed to discuss the topic, aren't we?

I hate the fact that the internet is creating a society where everyone expects everything for dirt cheap or free. Where does that stupid idea come from?

Thanks for calling me, "the internet". I appreciate that. Anyway, I suspect that idea comes from greed. But, is that really what's being discussed here? How prices should be lower because we're greedy, or how prices should be lower because that way people can learn? Maybe greed plays some part, but it's not the primary motivation for providing an opinion on the pricing model.

Not all of us can afford a luxury vehicle... do the best with what you can afford - buy the book and stop whining.

Sheesh man, no need to defend the nest. We all know that.

[Buexe]

I hate the fact that the internet is creating a society where everyone expects everything for dirt cheap or free. Where does that stupid idea come from? That just devalues everything. If you don't think the value of the material matches the price, no one is forcing you to buy it.

If you are too poor to purchase it, then see what kind of deal can be made on a bulk purchase. If you are still too poor to purchase it, then so be it. Not all of us can afford a luxury vehicle... do the best with what you can afford - buy the book and stop whining.
exactly.
Deal with what you can afford, if you work hard enough you will become a great animator anyway with or without a box of DVDs

[switchblade327]

It's statements like this...
I would just like to end with the words of Neil Boyle, the other animator (aside from Richard) who worked on this. He told me that at Richard's studio, they reckoned it took people on average about 4 to 5 solid years to learn everything that was needed to go from junior assistant to senior character animator. All of that is now condensed in those 16 lessons. There is no more.

...that worry me. That some poor animation school kid is gonna spend money they don't have on some training DVDs and think he's gonna finish disc 16 as a senior animator, so it'll be worth it.

Don't get me wrong, Richard Williams is a master and I have no doubt the instruction is top-notch. But Daniel-san didn't learn karate from a book and only when we get the 'chip-in-your-head' edition of the Animation Survival Guide, will a training series give you 5 years of real experience.


I hate the fact that the internet is creating a society where everyone expects everything for dirt cheap or free.

There is quite a lot of wiggle room between free/dirt cheap and what is several months rent for some people.

[R10k]

I think you're missing the point here, Buexe. We know you don't need a box of DVDs to be a great animator. Heck, you don't even need the book of the DVDs. The point is, the book is popular because it's a wealth of knowledge for the common man. People, like myself, who didn't have a passion for animation, found something of what they're were missing in the book. Now, for no decent reason, the DVDs are priced out of the average person's reach. It's true there's always a premium version of what the common person has access to for a low price, but aside from asking the question of why it has to be this way (since I thought training was all about helping those in need) it feels as though someone has missed the boat, not realising one of the wonders of the book is who it's available to.

[PieterVH]

Hi Robert (and a few others that joined since I started writing :)),




I hear what you are saying, but I can't help feeling that you've just ignored more or less everything I've said before.

Please let's get some numbers right. First of all, you're also (as some did before) referring to the non-discounted price inclusive of UK VAT. That is a pricepoint which does not and will not apply to anyone on the planet for another five months.

On top of that, you, and most people here, live in the USA. UK VAT does not apply to you. So the price that does apply is 507,23 UK pounds, or 988.04 dollars at todays rate. That's right, under a thousand dollars. You've just added 50% to the price there for no good reason.

Thirdly, and this one totally baffles me, you are comparing this negatively to Gnomon's price point at 79$ per DVD, which would total at 1264 dollars! However people seem to reference Gnomon's DVDs as good value for money.

Which makes me wonder: is it indeed the length of the classes? Now, I personally own quite a few training DVDs myself: CMIVFX, Gnomon, 3Dbuzz, you name it.

They are long, that's true. However, I find most of them completely unwatchable. Staring for 5 hours at somebody's screen waiting for them to correct a mistake they made 20 minutes ago is not my idea of production value. These things are real time, unedited screencasts! I can't watch these for more than half an hour at a time. By all means, if this works for you, fine, but it really is comparing apples with oranges. We've literally spent months and months editing these lessons trying to bring them down from 4 full days to about 3 quarters of an hour per lesson to make them pleasurable, instructive and efficient to watch.

Also, as a side note, I do want to add that people seem to complain mostly about the price in dollars instead of the price in pounds. With all due respect and not wanting to get political here, please do put the responsibility for the dollar's exchange rate where it belongs and hope for some more sensible voting behaviour in the US next time... :)

All of this ultimately brings me to this simple fact: when we started discussing this project, now more than 2 years ago, we were faced with a choice: we could transfer the whole 4 day masterclass to DVD, compress the hell out of it to put it on 3 or 4 dvds, charge 200 dollars for the whole lot and sell them by the bucketload.

And seriously disappointing thousands of people as we went along.

Because although the final product would be far from useless, it would be miles away from its full potential: the solid, complete introduction, course AND reference for character animation, no matter what your preferred medium or level of experience is. Which it is now. We believe it's simply the best out there, ever, and we would have kicked ourselves if we would have delivered anything less.

We did realise from the start that this would turn out to be the price we would have to sell it at, but then after careful consideration took the decision to go it this way anyway. And confidently so. It is true what is being said in the promo: there has never been anything like it.

Now, to go back to those 40 minutes you refer to. That's a guestimate of the average class length and I hope I have been able to explain why that is (as an added bonus, this will also allow schools to fit exactly one DVD into a one hour class, by the way). On top of that (not included in that time) you have all the aforementioned animations on the DVD to go through and study (nearly 400 of them).

You will then have to at least triple that total to calculate the time you need to go through the set in a more or less thorough fashion. And that's just once. I never watched any training DVD more than once until now. I watched some of Richard's stuff half a dozen times already and I can't wait to have my own copy at home to watch them even more.

Do I personally think less than a thousand dollars is affordable? Yes I do actually, very much so. And after going to Annecy to spend a week with our "target audience" I can assure you that of those people, most students I've spoken to (and there were loads) agree with us. Think about it, less than a thousand, but have your school buy them in bulk and they will be even less expensive than that!

I have been through animation school myself. One thousand dollars is peanuts compared to what I have spent on art materials and tuition fees alone.

Obviously, all this is my personal opinion, not necessarily the one of the Animation Masterclass, although I'm pretty sure they would agree. Some people will still think it's too expensive, and that's fine. By all means don't buy it. It's not like you have to. Some people prefer to buy 0.50$ white supermarket loafs, some prefer 3$ hand crafted sumptuous goodie bread with 7 different seeds and grains. Both will keep you alive. Some people skip four years of art school for similar reasons and you know what? Some of them end up being the most brilliant artists. In the end it's all about what it means to you personally, what you think things are worth and the choices you make.

Cheers,
Pieter.

[PieterVH]

It's statements like this...


...that worry me. That some poor animation school kid is gonna spend money they don't have on some training DVDs and think he's gonna finish disc 16 as a senior animator, so it'll be worth it.

Don't get me wrong, Richard Williams is a master and I have no doubt the instruction is top-notch. But Daniel-san didn't learn karate from a book and only when we get the 'chip-in-your-head' edition of the Animation Survival Guide, will a training series give you 5 years of real experience.


That wasn't at all what I was referring to. I (Neil) was talking about the principles of animation which you typically learn gradually, through experience, in a conventional studio environment.

Principles which in such an environment takes about 4-5 years to seep through from "generation" to "generation" are now all contained in these 16 dvds. Sure, on top of that comes serious hard work and talent, no one will hopefully claim otherwise, but it will level the knowledge playfield a lot quicker than before. At least in my opinion.

[Buexe]

I think you're missing the point here, Buexe. We know you don't need a box of DVDs to be a great animator. Heck, you don't even need the book of the DVDs. The point is, the book is popular because it's a wealth of knowledge for the common man. People, like myself, who didn't have a passion for animation, found something of what they're were missing in the book. Now, for no decent reason, the DVDs are priced out of the average person's reach. It's true there's always a premium version of what the common person has access to for a low price, but aside from asking the question of why it has to be this way (since I thought training was all about helping those in need) it feels as though someone has missed the boat, not realising one of the wonders of the book is who it's available to.

Creating idealistic paradigms as basis for an argument ( "since I thought training was all about helping those in need" ) may make your arguments logical in your context, but does not necesarily convince others. Accept it or not that these DVDs cost what they cost, it is private property and the owner`s may do what they like with it and I bet all of those involved have bills to pay and it is most likely not for their Porsche-Dealer in Malibu.
Amen.

I had to smile reading this one:
"Staring for 5 hours at somebody's screen waiting for them to correct a mistake they made 20 minutes ago is not my idea of production value." completely true:D

[PieterVH]

The point is, the book is popular because it's a wealth of knowledge for the common man. People, like myself, who didn't have a passion for animation, found something of what they're were missing in the book. Now, for no decent reason, the DVDs are priced out of the average person's reach.

I really would like to comment on this one, because it seems to me another misconception about this set. See, the aim of the DVD set is very, very different than the one of the book in one respect: it goes way beyond it.

It's aimed at people who will want to make money with animation. Not at people wanting to have something nice to show their friends while sipping tea or wanting something interesting to read before going to bed. And that's exactly why we put all the work in it that we have.

The book is a nice object in itself and indeed a pleasure to read, even for people with the flimsiest of interest in the field. The DVD, however, is a bona fide course. And a pretty hard core one. It will potentially help you make money. And much more than what the DVDs cost.

[animateddave]

I don't see any problem with the price but sure when I first saw it I had to do a double take. Some of you remind me of a time when I was a kid and wanted a electric guitar and amp with a price tag of a little under 400 bucks. Sure 400 bucks doesn't seem like that much to me now but as a kid whos only job was going to school with a ten dollar a week allowance it was a fortune. I had to save for over half a year while weighting the guitar versus going out and spending money with my friends every week but it was worth it. Sure I would love to get these dvds today but can't afford it right this minute so I'll go back to what I learned as a kid and start saving.

[cookepuss]

First of all, you're also (as some did before) referring to the non-discounted price inclusive of UK VAT. That is a pricepoint which does not and will not apply to anyone on the planet for another five months.
And exactly how easy do you think that it will be for Joe Average to come up with that number? Maybe you've got that money to burn, early and often. I suspect that the individual student won't. Institutions won't be your only audience. Plus, it's not unreasonable to suggest that people will eventually end up paying that non-discounted amount. Otherwise, your discount would last forever, right?

That's right, under a thousand dollars. You've just added 50% to the price there for no good reason.
Wow. condescending much? I'll amend what I've said regarding the actual number. However, I maintain that a single hit of nearly $1k for US citizens is a bit rough. I've got the money laying around. Not everybody does.

Thirdly, and this one totally baffles me, you are comparing this negatively to Gnomon's price point at 79$ per DVD, which would total at 1264 dollars! However people seem to reference Gnomon's DVDs as good value for money.
Ammended here for the aforementioned reason.

Which makes me wonder: is it indeed the length of the classes? Now, I personally own quite a few training DVDs myself: CMIVFX, Gnomon, 3Dbuzz, you name it.
Me too. The extended length on some of them doesn't bother me. I don't necessarily mind watching somebody make a mistake if it means that it'll help to prevent me from making it later on. Generally speaking, I'm bothered by training DVDs that run through the material so quickly that you have to play things back several times in order to fully absorb something. That's why, as an individual, the notion of 40 minutes per lesson is a bit disconcerting, putting aside the inclusion of the master class. The topic is very complex. If Richard's style of teaching is compressed enough to allow him to milk each 40 minute lesson then more power to him. He's as masterful a teacher as he is an animator and should be commended. No sarcasm intended.
Do I personally think less than a thousand dollars is affordable? Yes I do actually, very much so.
Overall, given the number of volumes, a larger cost is not unexpected. The (apparent) inability to purchase per volume does make it harder on the individual. If you do offer a per-volume purchasing scheme feel free to correct me. I will gladly amend my statement.

I can understand why it'd be offered as a single, unified experience and would not broken up though. As a teaching tool to be used in classrooms, it makes sense. As a self learning tool, the game changes a bit. You have to understand that $1k is not what most individuals would consider an "impulse purchase." For an institution, you're 100% correct. It's just that not every student's school would buy it. A self-motivated student should be able to enjoy this experience just as well.

What kind of logic is being taught in school? In one breath you say that the set has massive value, and then the next breath you say the price is inexcusable? Ever hear of a contradiction?
Indeed I do. Isn't it funny how life is full of contradictions? ;) BTW, I'm almost 34 and have been out of school for many years. As far as my education goes, I'm prep school and ivy league educated so I'd guess that the logic being taught isn't so shabby.

Regardless.....

Yes, it is a massive value. You get the experience of an industry recognized master. You get the subject of animation presented by that master in full motion, animated form. That itself is a rare, wonderful treasure. It's like being taught by DaVinci himself on the nature of painting.

Yes, the price is inexcusable - for the individual. If the goal is to bring knowledge and understanding of the topic to an unlearnt masses then it is practically shameful that the collection is monetarily out of said group's reach. At least on an individual student level. At the very least, give people the option of buying the volumes one by one. If they already do.... mea culpa. Maybe I missed it on their site.

The material is no doubt worth its weight in gold. At the same time, can you see this DVD being as much of a staple as the book? There's a difference between shelling out $20 VS nearly $1k. $20 isn't even gas money nowadays. $1k you have to think about a bit harder, especially in these times. Again, a per-volume purchasing scheme would make it easier on the students.

It can be both a bargain AND overpriced. It all depends on the way you look at it. As individuals, the audience probably went to two emotional extremes in the span of minutes. Extreme joy at the idea of a DVD version of the book. Extreme sadness and the impracticaly high cost.

Just because it is good, it doesn't necessarily follow that it should be owned by everyone.
What about its intended audience? This is a DVD set about learning the craft, presented in a form quite natural for the medium. Shouldn't self-motivated students be able to purchase this set? Should it just be limited to the domain of institutions?

Alternatively, if you're suggesting that the DVD set is intended for those already in posession of such knowledge then I find that something might be missing from this equation. I've been animating for years. Richard's book is great and still sits on my desk. I just don't look at it that often anymore - rarely actually. Clearly this set isn't targeted at me, or at least the book itself isn't. If this DVD set is intended to be a learning tool then one would suppose that students stand to gain the most. Sadly, not many students have an extra $1k sitting around. Many have to scrimp and save.

I think that this is a case of two audiences existing, individuals and institutions. What is reasonable for one might be outrageous for the other.

I hate the fact that the internet is creating a society where everyone expects everything for dirt cheap or free.
Don't get me wrong. I don't expect anything for dirt cheap. I just expect something to be reasonably priced.I expect it to be priced relatively well in line with the means of its intended audience. For institutions, this set is a steal. Teachers everywhere are probably breathing a collective sigh. Students looking to purchase it to own are collectively groaning.

I'm not suggesting that they make it free. I'm merely suggesting that they make it affordable. There's a difference. As a teaching tool, it IS dirt cheap. As a self-learning tool, it might be a strain. Even with a 5 month lead.

I don't see any problem with the price but sure when I first saw it I had to do a double take.
:) Yeah. Me too. At first, I was like, "Cool." Then I was like, "Uhmmm.... I just upgraded my whole render farm. Maybe later." :) I'm not exactly dying for this type of information anymore at this point in my life anyway. I might get it later on since I'm a fan of the book, but it's not a necessity for me. Still, it's great that they've gone through so much trouble to empower more teachers.

Now I've got to get some actual work done. :) Sorry folks. No time to debate.

Best of luck. Congratulations to all those involved, especially Richard. I'm sure you've made many teachers happy with this announcement.

[lostpencil]

That wasn't a contradiction. He was talking about value in terms of what the information is (not how much it costs) and that the pricing in relation to the intended target audience was inexcusable.

Hmm... how does one determine the value of information? Often by cost to aquire the information. If the information is invaluable, monetarily or otherwise (and they can often be mapped one to the other), then one ought to be willing to pay a higher price for it. Therefore his statement is a contradiction - there really is no equivocation on the term value - after all currency/money represents value.

Regarding the target audience... why do you assume the target audience is everyone? The target audience is whomever Richard Williams wants the target audience to be. That is not up to you. You just assume that because it is training material it must, somehow, be made available to everyone and that begs the question.

Thanks for calling me, "the internet". I appreciate that. Anyway, I suspect that idea comes from greed.
If the shoe fits...

I suspect the idea (that somehow, since you can now get a lot of stuff free on the internet, you are now obligated to get everything for free) comes from laziness, not necessarily greed. It is much easier to get something for free. When you have to pay for it, you have to make decisions regarding the value of your time/money vs. the value of what you are getting. At times it requires self discipline and sacrifice in order to get that thing you value. That is not easy. Which leads me to...

...how prices should be lower because that way people can learn...
What you are really trying to say is that animation education should be affordable to everyone.

First, the whole point is that this training is affordable. For those serious about becoming professional animators they will pay for their education because they understand the value of that education ($200k for CalArts, $16k for Animation Mentor, $1k for Jason Ryan's training, $1k for Richard Williams' DVDs). It's called an investment.

Second, even if it is not currently affordable, it does not necessarily mean it is priced wrong. The monetary value that the creator/maker assigns to his product reflects what he feels is the value of the material. If you don't agree - then talk with your pocket book by not spending the money on it. But other people acknowledge the value and will sacrifice other less valuable things to get it.

[lostpencil]

And exactly how easy do you think that it will be for Joe Average to come up with that number?
Wow, you must have missed a good portion of this thread. The point is that it *isn't* for the average Joe. It's for those who are serious about investing in their character animation education.

Wow. condescending much?
Well, I for one did not read Pieter's post that way.


Indeed I do. Isn't it funny how life is full of contradictions? ;) BTW, I'm almost 34 and have been out of school for many years. As far as my education goes, I'm prep school and ivy league educated so I'd guess that the logic being taught isn't so shabby.

Actually, if your life is full of contradictions then perhaps an ivy league eduction doesn't have that much value. Having a world view full of contradictions is going to make you quite unintelligible, unstable and very unpersuasive (except maybe to the post modern relativist who could care less anyway).

The material is no doubt worth its weight in gold.
You really do speak with a forked tongue. So here is your argument:

1) The material is worth it's weight in gold.
2) Therefore it should be made availble for less than it's weight in gold.

Regardless of the intended audience, if something is worth it's weight in gold then one ought to be prepared to pay that amount of gold. If the maker/creator decides he can give it away for less or free (that's when you get a bargain), then that's his call, not the buyers. But of course the intended audience isn't what you assume so your entire 'argument' floats on thin air.

You want a bargain (or want the masses to receive a bargain). You don't want to pay for the full value of the material. Fine, but call a spade a spade. To me, you are demanding that the price be dropped, that a bargain be provided. Why? You say, to make it more affordable. Well that's the same way as saying I want a bargain because I want a bargain. There is no reason for Richard and his crew to reduce the price just because you stamp your feet on the spot. A tightly circular argument like that is not ivy league material.

It can be both a bargain AND overpriced. It all depends on the way you look at it. As individuals, the audience probably went to two emotional extremes in the span of minutes. Extreme joy at the idea of a DVD version of the book. Extreme sadness and the impracticaly high cost.

Objectively it can't be both a bargain and overpriced (in the same sense at the same time). It is either a bargain or it is overpriced. This is because we are talking about the inherent objective value of the thing being purchased. Either you are getting more than you paid for (a bargain) or you are paying too much (overpriced). Not both.

Subjectively, some view it as inexpensive and other's view it as expensive. I never argued that people react differently to the price. That to some it doesn't hurt the pocket book and that others will have to sacrifice something else to get it (or pass on getting it right now). One need only read this thread to see that. But to say that subjectively something is a bargain and overpriced is equivocating on the terms since bargain and overpriced have to do with the objective value. Expensive and inexpensive are better terms for the subjective reaction of the masses.

[PieterVH]

it's not unreasonable to suggest that people will eventually end up paying that non-discounted amount. Otherwise, your discount would last forever, right?

Fair enough, I can see your point. However, taking even that into account, the largest dollar amount ever applicable would come to 1,235.06 (at today's rate), which is still lower than that Gnomon price you mentioned.

Wow. condescending much?

Not at all. I genuinly value your comments as much as I would anyone else's.

To answer what seems to be your main concern, I have personally talked to tons of students, from dozens of different schools, and by far and by long the vast majority did not share your vision. Some even went as far as not even wanting to wait for their schools to decide on a bulk purchase. I am sure there will always be an unhappy few who feel they are not able to afford something, no matter how low it's priced, but ultimately and unavoidably, this is a business, not a philanthropy.

On top of that rest assured that the way the sales are set up will make sure that students are the ones to get the best deals possible. I hope that will alleviate some of your worry.

[cookepuss]

Wow, you must have missed a good portion of this thread.
In a long thread such as this, things do slip past me. I apologize if I had, unintentionally, appeared to be behind the curve here. I'm doing my best to answer between renders and it got the best of me. Oops. :)

Well, I for one did not read Pieter's post that way.
I suppose that's the hazard of being unable to convey certain real world subtleties over the internet. I'm not particularly upset with Pieter one way or another. I appreciate his in-depth response. I also appreciate his having cleared up certain misconceptions on my part. For that, I am thankful.

Actually, if your life is full of contradictions
I was speaking of life in general. I simply feel that not everything is black & white.

You really do speak with a forked tongue. <snip>A tightly circular argument like that is not ivy league material.
Paul, I appreciate the time you took to answer me. Please show me a modicum of respect. To insinuate that I am a liar and less than genuine is more than a bit insulting. As a valued member of CG Talk, I would have expected better of you. Show me the decency of a courteous, adult-like response and I will repay it in kind.

With regards to the apparent lack of clarity in my argument, I make no excuse for my belief that something can be both invaluable and pricey. There's the inherent educational value in a product like this. That's something that keeps on giving back for years to come. At the same time, there's the monetary issue which can pose a problem to some, but not to others.

For institutions, who I would now suppose is the true target audience, this is a monumental bargain. Teachers rejoice.

For self-motivated students without this in the classroom, either save your pennies or stick with the book. That's good too, I guess.

Whatever the case may be, I think that there are multiple sides to this issue. That's not speaking with a "forked tongue," as you so delightfully put it.

Anyway, I'm going to unsubscribe to this thread. If any of you wish to continue discussing this with me just PM me. Apparently.... ME TOO DUMB TO FOLLOW TREEEAAAD. MEEE LYAR AND IDEEOT. :P (For the record, Paul. I graduated with honors, a 3.8 GPA, and was on the dean's list consistently.)

[cookepuss]

Some even went as far as not even wanting to wait for their schools to decide on a bulk purchase. I am sure there will always be an unhappy few who feel they are not able to afford something, no matter how low it's priced, but ultimately and unavoidably, this is a business, not a philanthropy.
Thanks for responding, Pieter.

No. No. I am in total agreement. In the end, you all have to make your buck too. I'm simply just surprised that more students have not expressed concern. I think back on my starving student days and wonder how much scrimping I'd have to for this thing. :) Then again, when it's Richard Williams we're talking about, I can understand why the "price is not factor" mentality jumps to mind. The guy is one of a kind, in a good way. :)

I hope that will alleviate some of your worry.

Ironically, I'm not worried for myself. I can afford it. I'm just always looking out for the little guys. :)

[Boone]

Taking the thread into a different and more constructive direction could I ask if Richard Williams would be interested in talking with the UK's Open University to make this one of their courses?

Perhaps make it a 60pt course for £700 and Williams could help setup a marking scheme...or something. I wouldnt know about the details that would be involved but this would really do better on such a scheme where you could actually get your work marked and recognised on a resume. For people like me the OU is such an efficient way of learning(from home) and I and many others would be prepared to leap onto the course in a heartbeat.

Even in the book Williams tells us about a time in his career when he came to the UK and that he said we once took pride in having the best craftsmen but after a recent visit he discovered that standards went down the crapper(or something to that effect - I havent got the book to hand at the moment - corrections are welcome). Well, if he is serious that this boxset will dramatically improve our skills - and in the comfort in our own homes then I say "put your money where your mouth is and get in contact with the Open University" and he will see that craftsmanship standard return to the UK.

[lostpencil]

Paul, I appreciate the time you took to answer me. Please show me a modicum of respect. To insinuate that I am a liar and less than genuine is more than a bit insulting. As a valued member of CG Talk, I would have expected better of you. Show me the decency of a courteous, adult-like response and I will repay it in kind.

I am not sure how you figure that I'm calling you a liar or less then genuine. I'm calling you a bad logician and arguer - and worst case scenario I'm taking your ivy league college to task. Your arguments don't work. You equivocate on terms and make conclusions that are based on incomplete or faulty premises the result of which could devalue the work of someone I respect. I called a spade a spade.

I apologize if that comes across as unadult-like, but I'm angry and tired of everyone wanting everything for a bargain or for free. I've spent a good portion of my time creating training material for others in the past and I understand how much time and effort goes into making something like this (let alone all the invaluable experience that is standing behind Richard's product).

It makes me very angry when people devalue this kind of material by whining and complaining that it's overpriced. It downright makes me furious when others insinuate that they will wait to pirate this (or any other) material. I've had my material pirated, and trust me, it feels exactly like someone walking into your home and stealing your HD TV. I've had enough of people thinking that everything is somehow owed to them while they sit on their butts not lifting a finger to work hard and not sacrifice anything for what they want. If you are not that kind person, then I don't have a beef with you (just with your logic).


With regards to the apparent lack of clarity in my argument, I make no excuse for my belief that something can be both invaluable and pricey. There's the inherent educational value in a product like this. That's something that keeps on giving back for years to come. At the same time, there's the monetary issue which can pose a problem to some, but not to others.

Well this is entirely different to what you said before.... before you said it was overpriced and a bargain - which to me was fallacious. Now you seem to be on the right track. My point - this material is invaluable and so we should be ready to pay more than they are asking. If it indeed has value, then let us be prepared to value it with more than just words.

[3dtutorial]

... It downright makes me furious when others insinuate that they will wait to pirate this (or any other) material. I've had my material pirated, and trust me, it feels exactly like someone walking into your home and stealing your HD TV.


Like it or not that is reality of doing business in the digital world today and I'd be willing to bet you that this series will be up for grabs faster than you can say "shiver me timbers".

J

[PieterVH]

Thanks for responding, Pieter.

No. No. I am in total agreement. In the end, you all have to make your buck too. I'm simply just surprised that more students have not expressed concern. I think back on my starving student days and wonder how much scrimping I'd have to for this thing. :) Then again, when it's Richard Williams we're talking about, I can understand why the "price is not factor" mentality jumps to mind. The guy is one of a kind, in a good way. :)



Ironically, I'm not worried for myself. I can afford it. I'm just always looking out for the little guys. :)

Hi Robert,


Don't mention it, glad I got the opportunity to explain a few things. To be perfectly honest, I was expecting more students' concern myself. We do realize that for some, depending on their situation, this can be quite expensive. At Annecy though, I was watching students from the same film school that I attended over a decade ago, finishing their graduation pieces on their high end laptops, sitting on the stairs of the theatre. I am about your age, and times do appear to have changed! :)

(Not that that would in any way have influenced any of this.)

Anyway, I understand how you feel. That's why also I spend insane amounts of time - usually on the Pigsfly Fusion forum - helping start-ups along and doing quick tutorials.

[PieterVH]

Taking the thread into a different and more constructive direction could I ask if Richard Williams would be interested in talking with the UK's Open University to make this one of their courses?


Interesting idea and will pass it on. I know there are however no plans to do that just now, so I wouldn't let the thought hold you back. Do suggest it to the OU if you have contacts there and they have ways to make that work...

[micgaz]

Hi Pieter,

can you tell me if there is usually a confirmation that an order has been recieved?
I have looked around on the site and cant find a way to confirm the order there, and have not received a reply to my email request to confirm the order.

[PieterVH]

Hi Pieter,

can you tell me if there is usually a confirmation that an order has been recieved?
I have looked around on the site and cant find a way to confirm the order there, and have not received a reply to my email request to confirm the order.

Hi Michael,



Foyles is taking care of the whole ordering business, so best to contact them directly (they usually are very quick to respond). That is if you still haven't had an answer by now (sorry for late reply - been away for a month...).

Cheers,
Pieter.

[micgaz]

Hi Pieter,

no problem, and thanks for getting back to me.
Yeah, that is a good idea. Thanks for the suggestion, I hadn't thought of that.

michael

[sebbonaparte]

I know this thread has died down a bit, but I just wanted to say a few things about this box set. I own Richard William's book, and I've watched "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" many many times, and I think both are amazing works, and that he is an amazing animator. I am 15 years old, and in no position to spend 1000 US dollars on a box set, but I really feel that character animation is my calling, and I've been trying to glean as much information as possible, practicing my drawing, 2d, and 3d skills. If this box set is really worth my money though, I will save up and buy it, but before I spend all that time and money to get up to that, I need to know, truthfully and honestly. Can I use this to really catapult myself up there, as long as I put in the time to really follow through this set and practice all of it? I want to be able to be a decent character animator by the time I get out of high school, and I will put in the hours practicing, but is this worth it?

Thanks in advance, and I understand the pricing... something has to pay the bills for all the hard work you guys put into making this!

[PieterVH]

If this box set is really worth my money though, I will save up and buy it, but before I spend all that time and money to get up to that, I need to know, truthfully and honestly. Can I use this to really catapult myself up there, as long as I put in the time to really follow through this set and practice all of it? I want to be able to be a decent character animator by the time I get out of high school, and I will put in the hours practicing, but is this worth it?

Yes.

Absolutely yes.

This is exactly what the box was designed for. Everything that Richard Williams has learned himself over the last 45 or so years, everything he knows is in there.

It'll take you some time to get through all of it, for sure. We've crossed the 400 mark for the number of animated examples, delivering much more than the 350 promised in the promo. Some of them are up to 5 minutes long, explaining methods and principles in extraordinary detail.

Best of luck getting there, that's definitely the spirit!

Cheers,
Pieter.

[PieterVH]

Just so you people from outside the EU know; thanks to the pound tanking as much as it has over the past few months:

Current US Dollar price is $811.57...

http://www.theanimatorssurvivalkit.com/buy.html
2 weeks left for the 20% discount!

:bounce:

[nimajneb]

Briefly:

Approximations,

Commercial License of XSI Advanced... $5000
Annual Maintenance Contract... $2000

Commercial License of 3DSMax... $3500
Annual Maintenance Contract... $500

Commercial License of Maya Unlimited... $5000
Annual Maintenance Contract... $2000

Commercial License of Houdini... $7000
Annual Maintenance Contract... $3000

1 Year Tuition at a reputable Art/Animation School... $15,000-$25,000

Carrying around a master animator's class in a box for approximately $800?

Priceless.

[dantea]

If I was in Art school, then obviously I'm not going to make any money with my 3D application license. Then software cost is $0 for Houdini Apprentice, or at worst, $100 for Apprentice HD.

[R10k]

Yeah, comparing a DVD training set to a 3D suite is a bit silly, anyhow. One is the instructor, the other is the hammer.

[nimajneb]

The point wasn't to compare the two. It's obvious that they are not the same thing, that goes without saying. The point was to bring the reader back to the reality that over a career an animator will spend LOTS of money for the tools and training for this career. In comparision, the amount for the DVD's and the information therein is minuscule. I hope that makes my intent clearer for you, R10k.

[R10k]

Okay, I see... good point. I'm not sure I'd call the amount miniscule (after all, an animator doesn't need everything you have listed, and could work with much cheaper versions/programs) and that price is the same as what I payed for XSI7 Ess in Australia, but... I see the point :thumbsup:

[Hellbeard]

Hello,

I just got my copy of the DVDs last month, they're amazing!!! Exactly what I imagined the

book would be if it was animated, and the content is exactly the same as in the book. The

only difference is that it's 1000 times much better, clearer, enjoyable, and powerful.


The lessons on the DVDs are not too complicated and they're not too simple, they're just right!

If you're looking for something new and different from the book, then you shouldn't buy

this, because the principles are the same and they'll never change, but if you want these

principles to be explained in a more clear and enjoyable manner, then you should give it a try!

Think about it! Will you learn the principles of animation through illustrations on a book or

through actual animations?

So why would it be a replacement for an animation school?


First, during his lectures, the students ask many questions (which is very likely to be the

same important questions you might ask), unless you wanted to ask a useless irrelevant

question, or something simple that you could find out on your own.


Secondly, The DVDs don't only contain his lectures, but also an introduction before the

lecture, an overview of the concepts explained in the lecture and the conclusion after

finishing the lecture, with a lot of animated examples from the book that explain these

principles and side notes to illustrate the most important frames in the animation.


Finally, These DVDs won't waste a lot of your time, each DVD is about 30-40 minutes, the

principles are explained clearly without overcomplicating everything. But of course you can

spend more than a month to practice and study some of the animated examples. It's not

like you're going to watch 30 min of lecture and then magically become skilled at it.

The lectures only open your mind and direct you to the right way to go. It's up to you to

make the effort and study the examples. I find that to be much better than those 6 hour

DVDs the brainwash you with procedures!


Kind Regards,

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