shag Hair wind

[FabioMSilva]

and how do they Shade the hair like that(i mean texture) it looks so beautiful! he looks so REAL!

[FabioMSilva]

:shrug: no replies? oh well....

[tyio]

i'm sorry, when i saw it, i find it very realistic, but i don't know how they did ...

[grury]

Once I tried to do something similar to that (hair moving) and after playing hours with shag's setting and getting nowhere, i decided to use Simcloth for the dinamics, i applied the symcloth modifier on top of the hair (as geometry, not vectors) and on the cloth settings i included the wind and gravity forces, its a painful lenghty process but the results werent so bad, although you wont have individual hairs moving the mass movement was pretty cool, if you have a kick ass PC you may wont to try a mix of the 2 processes, 1 for the bulk of the hair and another using shaghair for individual hair movement..

hope it made any sense, good luck, or shall I say BOA SORTE, just realised you're portuguese...

[FabioMSilva]

lol

Está bem :p

C´mon ppl more ideas! I really wanna learn how to use Shagg Hair correctly!

[Dave Black]

I tell you what, do to shag:hair's increadibly steep learning curve, and my years of using it in development, I'll post a render and a scene later(after I'm done this deadline, hopefully tonight). Then we can talk more about how to properly use the software.

You need to post a link to the effect you are trying to get, so that I can mimic it in the scene.

This could be cool.

-3DZ

:D

[ivo D]

cool.. yea.. i wanna know how to give the hai a realistic look.. caus shag hair is still a pain in the ass for mee :thumbsdow

[FabioMSilva]

ill do better than that. How about if i give ya the link of the scene i´m talking of? Better see it in motion right? Illidian Hair rulez!

just wait a min brb gotta get the link 4 it :D

[FabioMSilva]

http://www.warcraftiii.net/cgi-bin/download/quickdl.cgi?fl=ftp://212.67.96.161/loaded/e32003/War3 E3 Movie.zip

or
www.warcraftiii.net (http://www.warcraftiii.net)

Lets Mimic Blizzard´s hair shall we? Dont forget theyre the Number1 Company in CG (for video games)of the World! 1st Place on 3D Awards!



I´m eagering with antecipation of your tips , Grand ShagHair master 3DZealot :thumbsup:

[Russo]

Solid Snake, try before applying the Model Hair, the Normalize SPLINE, so you'll have a lot of vertex on the spline... then, play with the dynamics curves of weight, inercia, etc etc.... there is the key...

boa sorte :beer:

[Dave Black]

Ok, first off, I'm no Shag:Hair Master, nor did I say I was on Blizzard's level. I can, however help you understand how to reproduce the effect.

The guys at blizzard on not gods, just very talented artists with good direction and high standards. Shag:hair can take a long time to master. I'm not even there yet, and I've been using if for a few years now.

I ran out of time today, so It's going to be either during the day tomorrow, or on the weekend before I can give you a scene.

-3DZ

:D

[ivo D]

i have all the time.. just want to learn :D

ps: off topic.. i you need help with you faq.. you know wher to find mee :-)

[FabioMSilva]

i cant wait 4 your Teachings:beer:

Obrigado russo :P

[Dave Black]

Ok, guys, I finally had a minute to download the video in question.

Aside from the collision detection, that effect is really very easy. I'm sure they spent many frustrating hours getting the hair to not penetrate the character, but the actual motion of the hair is pretty easy.

I'll start working on a basic scene now, but let me just begin by detailing the core method of getting a good motion.

There are a few tricks here. Things that are mentioned in obsure documentation, some that are not.

First, I like to use Simcloth to do the actual dynamics computations. This allows for faster processing, better control, and overall, a nicer(and easier) dynamics solution.

Simcloth 3 does not yet support shag:hair, but 2.5 does just fine. Best for you to grab both, as Simcloth 3 is actually better at doing cloth.

I'll get more into the actual hair settings and theory soon. For now, I'm going to begin setting up that scene I promised.

See you guys soon. :D

-3DZ

:D

[tyio]

i'll wait !!:bounce:

[FabioMSilva]

great.

but how do u use simscloth with shaghair? do u use the clothmeshes in someway to simulate the hair movements for shag? i dunno

just cant wait

[grury]

On your hair model (created from Shaghair), tick the box "cloth mesh" on the shag view and then apply Simcloth mod on top of it as a cloth type, then apply simcloth to your body and head and make them as deflector type. Press the calculation botton and u shopuld start getting something. It may take a while to get the Integrity setting rite.

Tip: start simulation at a negative value so when it get s to frame 0 is already in place.

[Dave Black]

Ok, gents, here it is.

Not the most amazing thing ever, I know, but I'm on a deadline, and I had to do this on my lunch break, so, not a whole lot of time for polish.

http://www.3dzealot.com/DownLoads/CGTalk_Shag/Hair-1.gif

You can DL the animation here:

http://www.3dzealot.com/DownLoads/CGTalk_Shag/CGTalk_3DZ_SHAG.avi

And you can DL the Scene File here:

http://www.3dzealot.com/DownLoads/CGTalk_Shag/CGTalk_3DZ_Shag_Example.zip

Just select the hair display object, then go to modify, and click the "start calculation" button in Simcloth. Watch 'er fly.

If you need Simcloth, you can DL if free here:

www.chaosgroup.com

I'll be back on soon to answer questions and explain how it all works more in a few hours.

Thanks for you're patience!

-3DZ

:D

[FabioMSilva]

ooo :surprised pretty amazing

cant wait for the explanation, meanwhile i´ll just explore the file

[FabioMSilva]

LOL

http://www.thefinalbattle.o-f.com/

[FabioMSilva]

btw what simcloth object? i cant c any...

[ivo D]

snake ,could you help mee out here..sorry im offtopic.. but i need help right away :(

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63930&perpage=15&pagenumber=6

[Dave Black]

Well, make sure you have "edged faces" turned on to see it.

It's label starts with an "SH", and then is followed be the name of it's emmiter.

-3DZ

:D

[FabioMSilva]

allright, starting to look good now

i hope u tell me how we´re supposed to transform this beatiful piece of hair into Layers of hair...if u made a tutorial on how u made this it would be awesome:beer:

[ivo D]

want to unwrap a head.. i.. posted the thread here.. my post is below.. the last one.. ther is my problem.. i just dont know how to get it

[FabioMSilva]

DANM! I had written for ya( Ivo D) a very extensive post of about 25 lines of Text! But since i lost it cuz Cgtalk foruns were "too busy at the moment" ill just say this on 2 lines!(in a kinda of a tough way sorry, but i´m really pissed of right now since my beautiful text was wiped out by the "Server busyness"):

-1st Try not to post this kinda of things in other people´s posts!(lightwave forum? how did ya even got there? U are definitly lost lol)
-2nd Search for the tutorial on Unwrap made by a Cgtalk user. He´s from germany(dont remeber is name sorry) and has an avatar of a Asian Girl.

Sorry for being a bit rough but i´m so pissed off! Danm servers!

Hope this at least gives u a path to walk on

Good luck.

[Dave Black]

Ok, I've got a few minutes again...

Can I ask a question? What do you want to learn from this thread? Is it to learn every aspect of Shag, or is it to get a specific effect, such as soft hair blowing in the wind?

If you all want to know more about Shag, then I'd advice either a new thread, or a less complex request for information. The problem here, is that there are simply so many things to talk about, discuss, and teach, that I have no idea where to begin.

I can, however, explain briefly the steps taken to make the hair I supplied, and then can go into more depth about materials, lighting, styling, etc, etc.,in another thread.

Just let me know where I should go next with all this.

Thanks!

-3DZ

:D

[ivo D]

i pend a thread.. for shag hair only.. just.. to say anything concidering the plugin.. globally.. just to get what you want(realistic hair basicly i think..from ther we can discus animation and so on..


http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64568

[Lithie]

Hi all

Just read throu the whole thread. Its a great idea.

I havn't seen the Wc3 trailer myself because im on a 33,6 Modem but i can imagine its awesome as the rest of blizzards work

Its nice of u 3DZealot to take your time even when u are on a deadline. I'v learnt alot from reading your answer and ideas from various threads. :beer: :applause:

No offense The Solid Snake but if i were u i would try alot more instead of asking 3DZealot for everything. Because i get feeling of u doing that ( I know its hard to learn) :rolleyes:

If im wrong plz accept my apologies.

Looking forward to see more discussion on this idea. Myself i can't contribute with so much at the moment

Cheers! :buttrock:

[FabioMSilva]

maybe i´m just being a bit lazy in asking everything(about how to place layers of hair) but still i´m on a very short Deadline as well and i need to learn everything i can in the smallest amount of time as possible... thats why am so "knowledge hungry".

Still it would be great if Zealot shared with us his thoughts about the hair on the wind like illidian, i guess we all could learn alot from it and that would give us proper inspiration for our future. s for building the hair, maybe i´ll make a post on it some other day, but on this one guess u´re right, lets just concentrate on the Hair on the wind.

For example, illidan´s hair seem to be very attached(each strand to each strand) i´m not being able to simulate that on the scene(on yours to be more accurate, dont get me wrong Zeal, your hair is beautiful , but its a bit different from Illidian´s, i just dunno if more or less realistic, but i guess its a bit less as blizzard was probably working on it for a year while u´ve just worked on it for a few hours ;)

Also, it seems the wind is pulling the hair on different directions(as a little whirlwind due to the water/sea winds, let me know if im wrong on this)

Also, how can we set a so detailed mesh to be a "deflector" for the hair? u told in this tread once theyre probably spent alot time on this issue, to make sure the hair didnt penetrate the head. is this so hard to achieve? and if so how can we manualy do this? Any ideas? oh well here i go again with my knowledge hunger :D

Phearhaps in a near future, we can make a tutorial of realistic hair on wind from the knowledge we all got from here...good Tutorial to help the community from us all and from the experience we got(or we´re getting, like me)

Hurray, long live this tread, cuz it´s my most viewed tread ever! :D

:beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:

CHEERS TO U ALL MY CG-BRETHREN! CHEEEEERS!

[FabioMSilva]

...and remember that what WE do in life, echoes in eternity...

[Dave Black]

*blinks*

Um...The hair I gave you all was done in about 15 mins, but the simulation and render took an hour...FWIW.

If you want the hair to stay together more, just set the "absolute" setting in the model hair modifier to 1.0

Or, use the attraction editor.

-3DZ

:D

[FabioMSilva]

groovy :thumbsup:

[Dave Black]

*sighs*

Just re-read this thread.

Ok, let me touch on the deflection issue.

First off, you will find that using the original high-poly mesh(especailly deforming meshes) almost impossible to do calulations on.

You need to create something called a "Hull". This is a seperate deflection object, often an optimized version of the original mesh. Usually, the "hulls" are linked to the bones of a character, and made non-renderable.

This allows the physics simulation software to run both faster, and more efficently. You see, animating with dynamics is a mixed bag. You really loose all control over the animated objects once you hit the "run sim" button. Often, this means many, many tests. All trial and error. Sometimes you have to fake it a bit, but I'm getting ahead of myself. I'd say the first step to learning Shag(and any dynamics based system), is learning how to get your preview speed down, so that you can do about a million trial and error runs quickly.

For hair emminating from someone's head, you have to be very carefull. The hair can easily pass through the head if not properly setup. One would usually go about doing this by weighting the knots so that the hair is stiffer the closer is gets to the scalp. This can clearup alot of basic problems with deflection.

One must also consider whether or not the hair should deflect against it's self. The answer is usually yes. This will increase your sim times dramatically.

In the future, I'd really like to encourage users to post specific questions, so that I don't ramble on like I just did. I could write a book on the subject.

I'd also like to mention, that I'm not the best out there in regards to this area, and I really don't want to monopolize the thread space if actual shag gurus would like to jump in. These are my personal opinions from using the software in production, and possibly don't represent THE best way to go about everything.

-3DZ

:D

[FabioMSilva]

very detailed hints...cool!

unfortunatly i´m not going to be able to test them right now... cuz i got a REAL big job ahed of me(just to give ya a taste on a portuguese weekend : I gotta read a book which has 700 pages, plus "all my sons" from a english writter +100pages; study 130 pages of philosophy cuz i´m going to have a exam by monday, MAke 2 Workcheets(dunno how is it called) of T.O.E(believe me u dont even want to know what that disciplin is) and alot more i dont even want to remeber...this is a portuguese weekend...do u americans have this so much work either? just wondering...i dont know about u, but i really feel exausted even before i bigin...few oh well...where shall i start of? sigh....so many job so many tasks and so small time...what a crazy world we live in...

but believe me, i´ll give a look into it as soon as i can cuz i just love CG oh yeah baby, oh yeah ;)

Thanx Zeal, Keep it coming!

i have this feeling that this thread is going to prevail for a long time... :D

[ivo D]

i know i do. but its interm time for mee.. so im working for allmost a year now.. not using shag hair.. just making some simple 3d models blaarg:scream: :hmm:

[grury]

Hey Solid, maybe instead of writing all these lenghty posts you should do a bit for yourself and try to get the thing right by playing with your settings, just dont expect people to figure out what you really want and do it for you,,,if you have such a tight deadline maybe u should have mentioned it in the begining and not being so harsh with anyone that is trying to help you....

Good luck anyway...

[FabioMSilva]

i was harsh? i totally apologize for that

my Deadline is "when its done" now, so i´m a bit more relaxed now :thumbsup:

thank u all ppl

[Tremor]

hey 3DZealot this example is really good one!

i just have one problem...after i calculate the animation i cant see the hairs on the render..even without the calculating..it just wont render the hairs if the simcloth mod is on..when i disable it i can see them... can you help me on that plz?

thanks alot.

[Lithie]

I missed that u had a deadline Solid Snake so i can understand if u wanted to ask much. Good for u a that u got an George Broussard-ish (3drealms Duke4ever) deadline instead :)

I would agree with 3DZealot on makin a less detailed hull. Because it will speed up things alot :thumbsup:

Solid Snake can't u post some screens from the wc3 trailer to show the hair ? It could be of some help. Not that i can say that i can contribute with anything just by seeing them.

I would be nice if alot more people would find the thread and join the discussion.

Im hoping for a tutorial on the subject and that i can try to help out in some way.:bounce:

[FabioMSilva]

http://www.thefinalbattle.o-f.com/

here they are. I´m sorry for the very bad quality, but it was the best i could get from the movie.:annoyed:

[Tremor]

hey Solid Snake could you help me on the problem i asked before? on zealot's scene? do you see the hairs after the calculation in the render?

[Dave Black]

Tremor:

I have no idea why you can't see the hair after the sym is calculated.

Are you using the latest version of Shag? Within the shag:hair display object, there should be an option for "cloth". Have a look there. And you are saying that it disapears in the render, not the VP, right?

Get back to me on that. I'm sure it's something simple...or not.

-3DZ

:D

[FabioMSilva]

yeah i saw them. Check your versions of shag and simcloth. :)

[Tremor]

hey man thanks for replying..

i checked everything....my sim is 2.51 and shag 1.09 i think...i made sure the shag view is on cloth..only after i remove the modifier i can render the hairs...i can see the splines calculated on the vp with no problem its just the renderer wont show the hairs..again if i remove the sim mod i can see them.

plz if you can try to help me cause im right in the middle of those animation things and its really importent to me..

thanks..

[Dave Black]

So, if you open my scene, run the sym, and hit render, it does'nt work? Very odd.

And both Shag:Hair, and Shag:Render appear on in the enviorment dialog?

I really have no idea what it could be.

I'll have to experiment.

I am using Max 5.1, not 5.0, so there could be an issue there.

Try deleting the simcloth modifier, and then re apply it from the modifier menu. Run the sim again, and test the render.

I'll be back to check in on your progress. Sorry you're having problems with it, but I'm sure we can figure it out.

-3DZ

:D

[Tremor]

yeh im using 5.1 and its happening exactly as you say..there are entries in the shag rollout everything is fine..i dont know whats up with it.

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